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Amulet, Amulet, Who Put Her into the Amulet?

Author: 
Anonymous
Librarian Comment: 

This thread was started on June 23rd, 2006, and covers the duality of Akatosh and Lorkhan as well as the nature of the world in general. MK is Michael Kirkbride, and Sheogorath is Tedd Peterson.

Some responses have been excluded from this transcription because they did not relate to the matter at hand. A full archive of the thread can be found here.

**MK

Did Akatosh put Alessia into the Amulet, or did Shezarr?

There are conflicting accounts in the lore. And it seems that TIL changed its timeline to reflect this.

Believe it or not, this was intentional. The internal TES timeline still has Shezarr at the apotheosis, even though OBL's book "Amulet of Kings" would seem to indicate otherwise.

Only about four people in the world might know what I'm talking about, and Xan's one of them.

Go fix TIL. And then get ready for a revelation. 

Educated guesses beforehand are welcome.


Xanathar

Okay, I'll restore that piece. I tried to accomodate the new lore, the Shezzar thingies cannot be found in other references. It was given by you. The Great Pete says if it's not in the game then it's not official. Heh. Still I didn’t feel right replacing Shezzar with Akatosh.

Educated guesses beforehand are welcome.

Shezzar == Akatosh?


Gez

Akatosh’s depictions in Oblivion, as statues or on stained glass window, is of a two-headed being. A man with a human head, and a dragon head.

Akatosh being the same as Lorkhan makes sense, if Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus are the same. To create his empire of Tamriel, Tiber reenacted what Akatosh did to Lorkhan to create Nirn.


**MK

Shezzar == Akatosh?

You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.

Tamriel is an impossible place, built on impossible precepts. It’s, frankly, a magic ball of sentient schizophrenia.

These are why the echoes in every corner of every myth. These are why the ease of men to immortals and immortals into frozen egos.

It is pure magic, thought up by the nagging itch called "if", which necessitated a "then", which in turn made everything scared that it would go away forever.

It is a baby universe with doom already marked on its head, because it cannot really exist, it has no real mother, and it doesn’t understand how to get out, or why it might, or if it should because the rest of the void is a horrible thought filled with nothing.

And it is not really populated by classic medieval Facegen people. At least in the eastern portions of Cyrodiil, it’s not.


Adanorcil

If I must put my money on theory, I’d say that there are closer bonds between Shezarr and Lorkhan than we always assumed. Whether those bonds are natural or artificial remains to be seen.


Xanathar

Dragon Break books say that there are some aspects of Auri-El in Akatosh, and those maruhkati selective dance like fools to split the aspects of Auri-El from Akatosh. By this book, I assume Akatosh == Auri-El. And then how come Auri-El "killed" Lorkhan and put his heart on his bow, and shot it across the ocean? Or... those maruhkati selective is a bunch of stoopids? ... wait, they didn’t find a way to split it, right? hmm...

As usual you made me confuse.


Gez

And how come Tiber Septim "killed" Zurin Arctus and put his heart on his robot?

It’s the human head and the dragon head fighting each other.


Allerleirauh

If you played Daggerfall, you may know that it’s never very clear whose soul is in the mantella. Is it the Underking’s, or Tiber Septim’s? The answer is that it’s a false question. If the Enantiomorph is a conjunction of opposites, the conjunction goes all the way to the top.


Proweler

Xan, ignore the monkey’s, think Ouroboros.


DragoonWraith

I have no idea what’s being said in this thread, but it sounds very important...


Shardie

To put it simply, both the Shezzar Camps and the Akatosh Camps are right

Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same beings.


Phintias

Wait, I’m more confused than I am by default. If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then does that make Auri-El the same as Sithis? And Anu the same as Padhome? Or where Akatosh and Lorkhan different things until the Marukhati Dragon Break? And if that means the Heart is also Akatosh’s heart, then does that mean Akatosh is dead too? Or I supposse all of that could be true and false, knowing (or not knowing, rather) how Dragon Break’s work. *Sigh* Stupid universes with multiple-manifest realities. It’s almost as bad as Discworld...


Proweler

Phintias, Cold is the same thing as Warm. Lorkhan is Akatosh by the same logic.

You might also want to read something about Heraclitus.


Phintias

Oh, alright. Kind of like how Zurin is Tiber. Which actually makes more sense know... Zurin would be the Akatosh half, and Tiber would be the Lorkhan half. And same way that Tiber could betray Zurin, Akatosh could betray Lorkhan. This also makes the whole "Cloven Duality" concept a lot easier... neat.


B

So, what about the other Divines? Are all ‘gods’ really a single entity cut into many pieces (perhaps eight, or more), or are they simply one entity with schizophrenia, as MK suggested with Akatosh and Lorkhan?


Proweler

Well the actuall swap over doesn’t happen unless you aply a good amount of Magicka and turn the place into a Grey, see Trinimac <-> Malacath or Martin + AoK.


sóley

Wow. If Tiber Septim-Zurin Arctus is analogous to Akatosh-Lorkhan, does this have anything to do with the reason why CHIM (change?) is the secret syllable of royalty?


Proweler

I think the connection between the meaning and the position is co-incidentally.

CHIM mean ‘royalty’, ‘starlight’, and ‘high splendor’ as that is how Lorkhan explained it to the other et’Ada. They would find another way to jump back to the Far Shores, Aetherius, hence starlight. Auri-el would be it’s King, hence royalty. It would also be a glorious attempt to create a soul for the soul of Anu, hence the high splendor.

The Symbol itself however looks like a Crowned Tower that treatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration. This is much closer to the actuall nature of CHIM. A return to the first brush of Anu and Padomay, a Perfect Grey that will split up in Void and Magicka.


**MK

If I must put my money on theory, I’d say that there are closer bonds between Shezarr and Lorkhan than we always assumed. Whether those bonds are natural or artificial remains to be seen.

Do you mean Akatosh and Lorkhan?

Shezarr is the Cyrodilic version of Lorkhan, so they’ve always been bound together.


Sytel

Akatosh is Lorkhan...

That makes so much sense it’s scary. Time was Lorkhan’s invention; time = change = mortality. Messing around with Lorkhan causes Dragon Breaks. Tiber as Lorkhan, Martin as Akatosh, the whole Dragon Blood deal, linear time vs. the Dawn Era...

Or maybe Akatosh is one half of the first Enantiomorph. But that leaves the question, who or what is the other half? I’m inclined to say Mehrunes Dagon, him being the Daedric god of change, but that might be too Oblivion-influenced of an answer.


Gez

So, Akatosh is Lorkhan.

But that’s not enough. Somebody else needs to be Lorkhan, too. For Akatosh is an Aedra, and Lorkhan is neither Aedra nor Daedra. Lorkhan needs to be a Daedra too, to truly be Nirn, to truly be Alessia the sweet wife of Shor and of Auri-El and of the Sacred Bull.

Morihaus, thunder god of the destructive voice, is Mehrunes Dagon. And Dagon is Dragon. The Aldudaggas are the story of Nirn tricking itself against itself to save itself, forcing itself to punish itself and to condemn itself to destroy itself so that it can recreate itself.


needtofindausername

My head hurts...

OK, so shezzar = Lorkhan = Akatosh = (maybe) Mehrunes Dagon? Wow, Nirn is even more confused than I am right now..


**Sheogorath

If you believe it, it’s simpler. Everyone is everything.


Tarvok Spellbinder

I suspected as much.

My theory has to do with the convergence of multiple timelines. I suspect that the malleability of time as at the root of all the major confusions of Tamriel.

Unfortunately, though this idea shines brightly in my mind, I find myself unable to wrap it in vocabulary.

This shows, however, just how confused elvish metaphysics really is. Elves worshipped Auri-El, all the while hating Lorkhan. If they’re the same guy... this is a bit strange.

I suspect Sheogorath is the true God of the Elves.  The theology of men makes more sense. Lorkhan (aka Shezar) is a god, plain and simple. It is ironic that it was men who attempted to "separate" Akatosh from Shezar, when elves have always believed that they were, in fact, separate, and that, in fact, they are not.


Shardie

I personally think, that while Shezarr and Akatosh are the same, Lorkhan and Auri-El are very different beings...


Marauth Alaí-Rán

So when Auri-El and Lorkhan fought physically in the Elven myths, were they manifestations of the two halves fighting in the same manner as Tiber and Zurin?

Or is that simply myth? And who or what is/were the other Aedra, especially Trinimac, as wasn’t he the one who strikes down Lorkhan and takes his heart before giving it to Auri-El?

@ Shardie:

if Akatosh = Shezarr
and Akatosh = Auri-El
and Shezarr = Lorkhan
then Auri-El = Lorkhan.

They cannot be different if their ‘other names’ are the same, because those things are just names, cultural names. The significance of those names to the ones who use them is a different matter. To the Altmer Auri-El and Lorkhan are worlds apart (possibly literally), but to the men of Cyrodiil, Akatosh and Shezarr can be one and the same. The difference is in the eyes of the followers, not in ‘reality’ whatever that means in the royally-screwed up TES universe.


Xanathar

Could someone help me with this question:

Who is "the One God" in Alessian Order belief?

Akatosh? I don’t think so.
Shezarr? *shrug*
or Lorkhan?
Obviously not Auri-El.
Don’t tell me of one of those Daedric Prince... uh, or is it?


Gez

Nirn. The Gray Maybe. The oneness that binds opposite into being the world.


Proweler

He is an abstract and unknowable depiction of a Single God, most often simply referd to as "The One". All the other gods are considerd to be a fractured reflection of him. I’d geus they were worshipping the Aurbis, it would explain their interests in the Psijic Endevour, but I really don’t have much of a clue. It’s not like somebody didn’t burn all the Monestaries and left plenty of books from that Era for future generations.

From Where Were You When the Dragon Broke

Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of.


Ananke-Mormo

So are the Aedra real? It seems very strange that Akatosh is the only one who’s ever done anything.

My guess would be that Padomae’s side was split into Lorkhan and the Daedra because he was killed, but Anu was not split and remains only as Akatosh. However, this probably isn’t anything more than what I want to be true.


**MK

"--one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"


Ananke-Mormo

If you’re discussing the properties of each 1, then it is very important what order they’re in.


featherbrain

Especially if you’re counting in base 2 (binary).


Gez

Then one followed by one make three, which goes with my idea that Lorkhan is not just Akatosh, he’s Aldudagga, Alduin-Dagon. Two that make one which is three.

Aldudagga Ouroboros

See also Satakal, Anu+Padomay.


syronj

We’ve been told there are multiple gods. Is MK saying there is only one God, who wears several masks? Or does this God have multiple personality disorder (different from schizophrenia)? How self-aware is this God? Does He realize he’s fragmented? Is He physically fragmented, or just mentally?

The lore seemed to tell us that mortals, when they die, go to be with their various godheads. The daedra worshippers go to Oblivion to serve their masters, the good go to be with one of the Nine, and someone more knowledgeable than I (which is to say, most of you) can say what happens to the Temple adherents.

Is this still the case, or what is the truth now?

What’s the ultimate goal the Lore is working toward? A kind of Nirvana where mortals become one with the universe and/or a supreme being?


Proweler

The Altmer hold it that Anu has a soul Anuiel whom uses Sithis to create his own thoughts. Following this logic, Lorkhan and Auriel are nothing but Anu’s desire to qeustion himselves. Auriel was created when his thoughts kept on dying and Lorkhan was created when there was no more room for new thoughts so that he would recreate the Grey Maybe from which new idea’s might come.

Together they form Satakal, Alduin, the Serpent that constantly creates and destroys the world. Hence Lorkhan returns an empire to it’s infancy while Akatosh makes them grow. Their behavior is not schrizofrenic, merely the reflection of Anu’s desire to maintain a line of thought which requires him to construct (and destroy) and reset his thought after a while.

Perhaps it’s better to think of the Aurbis as a computer who try’s to find the meaning of life by trying each and every one possiblity.


Ira

The Altmer hold it that Anu has a soul Anuiel whom uses Sithis to create his own thoughts. Following this logic, Lorkhan and Auriel are nothing but Anu’s desire to qeustion himselves.

Thinking this way you discount Anu and forget about Padomay. None could exist without the other. "Anu has a soul Anuiel (...)" means that something must have first inspired perfect stasis to act, to think. So Anuiel is a "child" of both Anu and Padomay, and so Sithis too. In my opinion first enatiomorph recreates itself in another, better prepared to exist in Gray Maybe. This one (Anuiel-Sithis) contains all of gods and daedra but because its further thinking and reverse influence is more and more advanced (more shades of gray), divine schizophrenia begins and creates multiple gods. Most of them in fact can be nothing but another masks of Anuiel-Sithis, they are unconcious aspects, rather eons than gods. But two of them (Lorkhan-Akatosh) are strong self-conscious and close in their nature to the archetype. First thougt that Michael Kirkbride presented here focuses on this third enatiomorph.

"Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"

I can’t say which one of these two better describes its dual and protean nature.

‘Can a member of the Invisible Gate become so archaic that its successor is not so much an improvement of the exact model, but rather a related model that is just needed more because of the currency of the world’s condition?’

This fragment is of course untrue and relates to Hortator, etc., but I like this sentence and I think it fits nice


Allerleirauh

The lore seemed to tell us that mortals, when they die, go to be with their various godheads. The daedra worshippers go to Oblivion to serve their masters, the good go to be with one of the Nine, and someone more knowledgeable than I (which is to say, most of you) can say what happens to the Temple adherents.

Is this still the case, or what is the truth now?

What’s the ultimate goal the Lore is working toward? A kind of Nirvana where mortals become one with the universe and/or a supreme being?

Not an answerable question. This isn’t an either/or thing. Many men, when they die, do go to be with their various gods. The various merish races never claimed to, and I have no idea what the Argonians think happens when they die. We’re talking now about what happens when you jump out of that system.

The whole business is a lot easier to grasp if you’ve had a few courses on comparative religion... or maybe just done a bit of reading on other cultures. "There is something beyond the fragmented duality of what most people call the world, even beyond the gods," is an elementary proposition for a Buddhist. "God created both Good and Evil and his successive emanations are both farther from the source and closer to the ultimate manifestation of his desire in creation," is pretty basic stuff if you’ve studied either Kabbala or Gnosticism. The concepts and the language you learn in studying what real human beings have believed in different times and places are tools you need to understand any advanced discussion of religion - even fantasy religion. It’s a heroic undertaking for MK to try to get everyone up to speed, and when he fails, everyone says, "What huh?" That’s not really the fault of anything he’s saying - cause it’s not really that far out.


syronj

Thanks, Allerleirauh. I don’t completely understand why a God would create Evil, but that’s not important here.

When I wrote the above, I realized that I’d never thought of how self-aware the god might be. Impossible to imagine how a god’s mind would work; whether He would understand that he’s fragmented. But you’re right about the importance of knowing other religions.


Proweler

Thinking this way you discount Anu and forget about Padomay. None could exist without the other. "Anu has a soul Anuiel (...)" means that something must have first inspired perfect stasis to act, to think. So Anuiel is a "child" of both Anu and Padomay, and so Sithis too.

Anu of the Altmer is the Void. Anuiel is Anu and Sithis is Padomay. Afterall it were the ruminations of Anuiel with the aid of Sithis that created the Aurbis.

Heart of the World

Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

This is somewhat contrary to "Sithis" in which Sithis is the Grey state of the Aurbis in which all the gods are mortal. So while I agree, with you on the origins of Sithis, the result of the interplay of Anu and Padomay, I pointed out the Altmer uses a different terminology.


Proweler

The lore seemed to tell us that mortals, when they die, go to be with their various godheads. The daedra worshippers go to Oblivion to serve their masters, the good go to be with one of the Nine, and someone more knowledgeable than I (which is to say, most of you) can say what happens to the Temple adherents.

Not an answerable question. This isn’t an either/or thing. Many men, when they die, do go to be with their various gods. The various merish races never claimed to, and I have no idea what the Argonians think happens when they die. We’re talking now about what happens when you jump out of that system.

If it it a persons perception of a god creates his apperance then it will be a persons perception that decides his afterlife. Or to a bigger perspective as it all comes down to Mortal Mental stress, if a part of the Aurbis goes into a state known as death it will experiance where ever it’s dreams will lead him in this experiance, be it his worst fear or his greatest dream.

Although I might add a few apostrophe’s around apperance, god, person, perception, afterlife, death, experiance, dream and fear.

Now this effect doesn’t just have to reach inside a person. It’s been said that while you life you affect the lifes of others, the more powerfull the person, the more powerfull his influence, so would "Gods" do this on the ultimate scale? The excistance of a Dragon Break seems to be some indicator of this.


Selia

From the perspective of an ant comprehending an elephant would be next to impossible. I would likely see only a piece or pieces to which I could attribute some particular thing about this massive creature. Another way of looking at this problem would be to see a jewel with many facets. Each facet casts it’s own reflection of it’s surroundings. What you see in those reflections may be different in each facet but it is still the same jewel. I look at Akatosh/Lorkhan like the pendulem of a clock. Would we notice if they changed positions? I would say probably not. We do not see the whole picture we only see fragments at best. For some reason reminds me of this whole cloven duality thing only seeing/understanding parts rather then the whole.


Lorus

Wow. This is awesome. Whahoo! I can see how other people might have figured this out sooner, as some in this thread have pointed out; it fits the whole theme and ideas of TES cosmology so well.

So, if I am understanding this right, looking at this and other posts in this thread, it is just another Enantiomorph thing of is-the-same-but-is-not all at once, going along with the belief in the wholeness/oneness of the Aurbis, and highlighting the whole idea of CHIM (as I understand it, anyway) of seeing yourself as being everything yet something separate and individual (in a sense, a part of an interconnected web - or wheel, if you like)?

Right now, I really wish I could go and shout from the rooftops of Tamriel, "Shezarr == Akatosh!" You have all been fighting over nothing this whole time! The Arena is one! Of course, it would most certainly start some huge civil war (aside from the fact that they’d all think me a mad heretic and would brutally murder me it weren’t for the safety of my rooftop; there are good reasons for not having climbing or levitation) instead of a great hug fest, but it would be great fun to watch.

This also seems to explain why Alduin seems to incorporate aspects of change (even if they are, in a sense, ordered changed). That was a bit of a quandary I came across in some mindless ramblings of mine in another thread recently, in which I, apparently accurately, claimed to not understand his true nature. Hah. I love it when I’m right about being confused and then I am somewhat enlightened.

If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then does that make Auri-El the same as Sithis? And Anu the same as Padhome? Or where Akatosh and Lorkhan different things until the Marukhati Dragon Break? And if that means the Heart is also Akatosh’s heart, then does that mean Akatosh is dead too?

I think you are taking it too literally (as well as Lorkhan’s "death"), assuming I’m not looking at this in totally the wrong way. It is like they are both the same being and two separate beings; they are united on some higher level. It makes sense if you recall that originally there was neither Anu or Padomay, just oneness/nothingness (however you look at it), but then suddenly there they were, and how in one Altmeri myth Anuiel, after being created by Anu, is described as creating Sithis, his antithesis/double, to discover himself. Vivec seems to mention this concept of everything’s/everyone’s "double" quite often, as well.

 

The Monomyth - Altmeri: Heart of the World:

Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

Anu in this description appears to be the ultimate/original "œunity" of everything; he is everything and everyone.

The Monomyth - Dunmeri: Sithis:

Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, ‘stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.’

Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been.

What the Altmer call everything, of course, the Dunmer call nothing; just to cause trouble really, I think.

Vehk’s Teachings - Concerning the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor:

It is interesting to note that their original views were very unorthodox for Altmer, and thus their exile from Alinor. These views included the suggestion that Anu’s son, the Time Dragon, was formed in reaction to Padhome’s influence. In effect, Anu had finally done something. This inconceivable effect gave rise to an equally inconceivable cause, and so PSJJJJ was named and the Order eventually took his name.

This would make me think the Psijics believe something similarly, but Vivec’s/MK’s comment that the Psijics’ beliefs have no relation to the Dunmers’ and the fact they seem incredibly similar to me throw much doubt on that and my understanding (or lack thereof) of the Psijics.

Vehk’s Teachings - The Tower:

What is the Tower’s secret?

How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say "I". The "I" is the Tower.

The Loveletter from the Fifth Era on the Sermon of Love:

To keep one’s powers intact at such a stage is to allow for the existence of what can only be called a continual spirit. Make of your love a defense against the horizon. Pure existence is only granted to the holy, which comes in a myriad of forms, half of them frightening and the other half divided into equal parts purposeless and assured. Late is the lover that comes to this by any other walking way than the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world. The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened.

Lull calls this a refutation of sorts, but the wise may know it as the first appearance of Nu-Mantia, which is Liberty. Rather, the road to Liberty.

Emphasis mine

Essentially, what it seems to me, is Vivec/MK is just again stating the need to œexist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble, to truly understand the universe and achieve CHIM, and that, ultimately, everything is actually one, there is no Anu-Padhome (or Akatosh-Lorkhan or me-you - or MK-Ted) and the lover/achiever of CHIM knows this.

"--one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"

Curse you, this is a perfect reference, MK! I’m jealous, particularly of the fact that you are the one behind these ideas too

This ties in a lot of the connections and pairings Vivec makes in the Sermons quite nicely with the Akatosh=Lorkhan idea.

Looking back at the lessons of the ruling kings (one of my favorite parts of the Sermons), is leading my thoughts down an interesting path…Vivec speaks of needing to remove the other “one” and specifically of Nerevar needing to remove Dagoth Ur, his double, in order to be a ruling king, because, “The ruling king that sees in another his equivalent rules nothing,” hence it being important to be able to tell them apart. So now you have Akatosh removing Lorkhan, his double/other half, Tiber Septim removing his, Zurin Arctus, and the Nerevarine removing Dagoth Ur and Vivec (and the rest of the Tribunal) as Vivec instructs Nerevar in the Sermons via the Heart of Lorkhan, individuals Vivec seems to connect in those Sermons.

So is the whole idea that everything/everyone has a double and we feel the need to distinguish them, despite their seeming similarities, either because of real differences or need or imagined ones, and to destroy one of the pair? And hence the strongly dualistic conflicts seen repeated often in the Aurbis and the Arena? And their ultimate unity, seen or not?

Okay, I think my brain is busted now. So much for my goal of achieving CHIM by the end of the summer

On an end note, you’re absolutely awesome, MK. This is a great discussion; I think I have learned a lot from what you and others have posted (and going back and looking at existing lore again), and probably still will learn much more, especially if people correct anything I’ve misunderstood (or propose their view, anyway).

(Oh yes, and sorry for the ridiculously long post, everybody, particularly to those who actually read it.)


Mehrunes Dagon

 still hold that Lorkhan is a shattered god who really only manifests himself in little bits in the world. Mainly because Trinimac, an Aedra, shattered him, and that whole part of I-SAW-HIS-FREAKING-HEART-WITHOUT-THE-REST-OF-HIM bit. And I still believe that whole sundering process and Lorkhan tricking all the Aedra (except, aparrently, Akatosh) into becoming mortal and tying themselves to the Mundus process.

However, if we believe that Tiber Septim, and, by extension, Arctus, was an aspect of Doom Drum, then it wouldn’t be that far of a leap to say that there really are only eight divines. Or Talos is Lorkhan represented at the table of the Aedra, as I more or less already thought.

And for another thought: If Lorkhan is a shattered God, then are the dragon breaks really a reflection of how Lorkhan’s self is unstable at best and it is that unstability that mirrors over to Akatosh at certain points in time (or space, depending on how far up on the metascale you want to go).


Gez

Trinimac wasn’t an Aedra, he was Auriel’s champion. More a hero-god like Reman or Morihaus than an Aedra-god.


Mehrunes Dagon

Well no, but I more or less consider him as an equal (because his remains did produce a Daedra).


**Sheogorath

Gortwog and the shamans of Orsinium would half disagree with you.


Proweler

Okay, I can’t solve this one.

If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then how come there are eight spokes in the wheel? Or was the statement an over generalisation?


Allerleirauh

I think everyone has been taking this statement for more than it’s worth. The two terms aren’t so interchangeable that the words become meaningless. I am one person, but if I cut off my right hand with my left hand, it’s not the same as if I cut off my left hand with my right hand. Just because I happen to be one person doesn’t mean I cease having a stomach, or a left eye, even though both of these things can legitimately be called "me."


Proweler

Ofcourse, the World-Serpent and his Hunger.

Cheers.


Polycarp

You know, thinking over this entire thing I’m still way more partial to the Altmeri view of things. In all religions, in everything there is the basic idea that everything came from the same "stuff" or God or whatever. That everything when it is all said and done is "One." However that really doesn’t kill the basic idea that free will divides them. The idea of Shezarr and Akatosh being one was previously related to the Hortator and Sharmat. Are they opposites that eventually equate to being on the same scale like good and evil, hot and cold, etc (however there is of course ideals such as "absolute zero" that I see as very similar to the ideals of "absolute good" core to some religions, it simply isn’t accomplishable in current world format)? Of course. Does this mean they should at all be thought as literally completely and totally the same being? Certainly not.

We know for a fact that there have been divisions between beings such as Magnus and Lorkhan, we even have very good evidence of an eventual division between Auri-El and Lorkhan based on their beliefs (the Aedra believing that they had been tricked, Lorkhan believing what he always has and always will). Essentially the actions of the Maruhkati were simply to get Akatosh back on "their side."

Of course everything is One, the Arena is One. But that does not stop beings from being divided by why they think is right or good or eventually benefitial (Man/Mer schism, Psijic Endeavor vs. Anuism, etc.). Hence tbh I would not take this revelation too literally or go on massive tangents based on it. As Allie said, right hand is still different from left. For what it’s worth I’ll still hold to the ideals of Auri-El because that’s what I believe is benefitial. You still have to weed out what is eventually good and evil, hot and cold, orderly and chaotic, and make your decisions. Just because everything is One doesn’t mean all ideals are equal. And so let the schitzophrenia continue.


Pantheon

I like this idea...

Maybe all religions are brought about by our attempts to rationalise things from a state of separation when separation does not exist.

We have evidence of creating this state of separation already, in our dream state, a natural state of our being.

In a dream you create everything that is you (your perceived separated self) and everything that is happening to you and around you (your perceived environment). In this dream you create the illusion of separation. You literally fool yourself and experience all of the emotions of a separated state.

Consider the following:
1. That there is no such thing as separation. There is only everything.
2. Nothing is everything, it just doesn’t know that it is. Consider that the only difference between everything and nothing is a state of perception.
2. The only truely realised state of being is a state of everything - all knowing, all being. A ‘God’ state of being.
3. We are all God, everything, love whatever you want to call it.
4. So why aren’t we ‘being’ this? Because we don’t think we are this. We perceive ourselves to be a separate being, living in a separate world.
5. The only way for God to know itself is to experience not being everything, thus it must experience separation from itself (being mortal, duality). How else could one be aware that one is everything, rather than nothing?


Proweler

Sounds about right to me.

Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say "I". The "I" is the Tower. - Vehk.


Phintias

Anyone else seeing the growing similarities with Hinduism? See, MK told us that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh, and the Aldudaggavelashadingas seems to suggest that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh-is-Dagon, too; all being part of some mystic Oversoul that is Aurbis. Perhaps this is the cosmic balance of things in the Aurbis: there is Lorkhan, who is Change, who transforms Possibility into Reality; there is Akatosh, who is Time, who both acts as the vessel and the sustaining force of Reality; and there is Dagon, who destroys excess Reality and returns it to Possibility, so that Lorkhan can Change again. They may not do this willingly, so hence it is the natural balance of things.

In Hinduism, (correct me if I’m wrong) they also have a cycle based on the Trimurti: the Creator, Brahma, the Preserver, Vishnu, and the Destroyer, Shiva. And all of these are also all manifestations of the Brahman, sort of the Hindu Oversoul, as are all the deva (roughly translatable as demigods, angels, spirits; all are incorrect.) Plus, they even have enantiamorphs and Pelinal Whitestrakes! Look at Shiva. He’s Shiva, but he’s also Bhairava, and Dakshinamurthy, and Nataraja, and Somaskandha, and Pitkchadanar. His relationship with Parvati (or Shakti; it varies) is more ambiguous. The best description I’ve heard is that, "there is no Shiva without Shakti and no Shakti without Shiva; the two are one, the absolute state of being." Sounds like an enantiamorph to me.


**MK

Anyone else seeing the growing similarities with Hinduism? See, MK told us that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh, and the Aldudaggavelashadingas seems to suggest that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh-is-Dagon, too; all being part of some mystic Oversoul that is Aurbis. Perhaps this is the cosmic balance of things in the Aurbis: there is Lorkhan, who is Change, who transforms Possibility into Reality; there is Akatosh, who is Time, who both acts as the vessel and the sustaining force of Reality; and there is Dagon, who destroys excess Reality and returns it to Possibility, so that Lorkhan can Change again. They may not do this willingly, so hence it is the natural balance of things.

1. You’re quickly becoming one of my favorite lore-posters. Good work.
2. "Growing similarities" should read "similarities" as the tendrils you’re mentioning grew up a few years back, only being stumbled on now.
3. Emphasis mine above, which is a good way to see this thing. Perhaps the best way. I’d see it that way, only with bunches of made-up words and new writings that contradict everything that was just said.

A reminder, though, that I have no in-character or in-game source to cite as backup, so I’m just talking here, not revealing anything "absolutely true".


Nemarious

You people have suceded in confusing the crap out of me


Phintias

Okay, look at it this way: the universe of TES is known as the Aurbis. The Aurbis is the mingiling of Anu, stasis, and Padomay, change. It is made of pure creative energy; you could call it possibility, reality, or most commonly creatia. All life, godly or otherwise, is made from the same creatia. So before distinctions were made, all spirits were equal, and were known as et’Ada. Now, all beings as we percieve them on Nirn are simply manifestations of the original soul of the et’Ada from which they sprung. A single soul may have many manifestations at one time, like how the soul of Mannimarco is manifest as both the God of Worms and King of Worms.In this same way, all et’Ada are really manifestations of the Oversoul: the Aurbis.

In particular, the natural balance that held sway in the timeless dawn, the cycle of Creation, Stasis, and Destruction, began to have myths developed around it by the primitive et’Ada. These myths took form (spawned by the then infinite creatia flowing about them) in one soul with three manifestations: Lorkhan, Akatosh, and Dagon. The cycle became as so: Lorkhan, who is Change, takes the creatia and changes it to reality; Akatosh, who is Time, takes reality and gives it means to exist; and Dagon, who is Destruction, who reverts the reality to creatia so that it may be re-made by Lorkhan. It’s like the recycling sign. The catch is this: none of the three manifestations know that they are one, and do not act as a recycling machine willingly. Hence they are not masters of the universe: they are manifestations of a single natural cycle, and thus a single soul.


Proweler

So where do the other et’Ada fit in?


Phintias

Hmmm... I guess the original et’Ada showed up the mundane way: random mutations in the fabric of possibility that created souls. More specialized souls, like the Daedra and the Nine Divines, would have been shaped by the beliefs/urges/thoughts/dreams/whatever of the early et’Ada. Mara showed up because of a need for Love; Dibella, for a need of beauty, etc.

EDIT: What do you know, that would mean that "The Light and the Dark" was right all along.


JONJONAUG

After reading this thread I have come to two conclusions. Not sure which one to follow.

1. Everyone (read as: every god, demi-god, being, thought, spirt, or anything such as this in the Elder Scrolls universe/multiverse/really, really odd reality) is a part of one being. After going back and thinking about the views on Oblivion (how you can’t kill a daedra, they just come back), I noticed that you can apply the same concept to everything. The Daedra are most evident, as they all have a strong "defining" thing to them (Dagon=destruction, Sheogorath=madness, etc.), but this can be applyed to lesser beings as well. When it comes down to it, everyone is at the same time both seperate and together. Basically, when someone were to die, they would return to this one being, then be reborn in some other manner, yet still remain a part of the world. This is basically internal conflict brought about in a really, really odd manner.

2. The plotline is made as ambigous as possible, with so many viewpoints on so many events that the devolpers can change ANYTHING at a moments notice without any reprecussions, thus leading to a convolted storyline that really makes no sense whatsoever.

One other thing.

Sheogorath is refered to as coming into existance "later". This can be seen as madness coming from an eternity of the realms just being really messed up.


Phintias

Like I said. Tamriel is the giant Soul Recycling System. The original et’Ada just get incarnated or polyincarnated, die, and get sent back to the original Soul Vat: the Aurbis. The only reason the common Daedra have it slightly different is that they know that they are from the great Recycling Bin in the Sky, because the Daedric Lords enjoy reminding everyone of it (i.e. they do die, they just know they’ll be reincarnated.) And the only reason the Daedric Lords get special treatment is that they have such strong mythic restraints and specifications that it acts like a life jacket: each time someone tries to push them in the water, they simply bounce back up. The Aedra and Lorkhan, now, they can die because they don’t have strong enough mythic barriers since all their myths are contradicting.

Think about it. If you got a theological expert from each of the races of Tamriel, Akavir, Pyandonea, Thras, and a Dremora in a room and asked them about the nature of Akatosh and Lorkhan, they’d argue for days. If you asked them about the nature of Sheogorath, they’d be able to reach a pretty quick consensus. The Daedra have that advantage of one, uber-strong unified belief; this would effect creatia far more that many, split beliefs like those of the Aedra. Perhaps that is even why the Aedra cannot effect the mortal realm as much as the Daedra; the unified belief, and therefore unified soul, gives Daedra more ability to control creatia. The Aedra, in the meantime, are weakened by the lack of unified belief; the mythopoeic forces cause the Aedra to split into many seperate manifestations, each with only a portion of the capabilities of the original Aedra.

Wow. You made me think again. Good work!


Proweler

The Aedra and Lorkhan, now, they can die because they don’t have strong enough mythic barriers since all their myths are contradicting.

When the Aedra were tricked into making Mundus they were acting against their Mythic Jacket, afterall they are suposed to be statically trapped in the Aether. Them pulling out of Mundus -or mostly just Auriel- would be the effect of their Jacket as mythically the Gods have no place in the mortal world. But as they sacreficed parts of themselves to create a special divinty NIRN, they also put part of their myth into Nirn so we are stuck with them.

Also the reason why Lorkhan and Akatosh apear to be so convulted at times, they are litteraly stuck together.