" border="0" height="8" width="8"> Amulet, Amulet, Who Put Her into the Amulet?, Xan, pay attention
MK
 Jun 23 2006, 05:54 AM
Post #1


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




Did Akatosh put Alessia into the Amulet, or did Shezarr?

There are conflicting accounts in the lore. And it seems that TIL changed its timeline to reflect this.

Believe it or not, this was intentional. The internal TES timeline still has Shezarr at the apotheosis, even though OBL's book "Amulet of Kings" would seem to indicate otherwise.

Only about four people in the world might know what I'm talking about, and Xan's one of them.

Go fix TIL. And then get ready for a revelation. 

Educated guesses beforehand are welcome.
Xanathar
 Jun 23 2006, 08:15 AM
Post #2


Disciple


Joined: 31-May 00
From: The Imperial Library




QUOTE(MK @ Jun 23 2006, 11:54 AM) 

Did Akatosh put Alessia into the Amulet, or did Shezarr?

There are conflicting accounts in the lore. And it seems that TIL changed its timeline to reflect this.

Believe it or not, this was intentional. The internal TES timeline still has Shezarr at the apotheosis, even though OBL's book "Amulet of Kings" would seem to indicate otherwise.

Only about four people in the world might know what I'm talking about, and Xan's one of them.

Go fix TIL. And then get ready for a revelation. 

Educated guesses beforehand are welcome.


Okay, I'll restore that piece. I tried to accomodate the new lore, the Shezzar thingies cannot be found in other references. It was given by you. The Great Pete says if it's not in the game then it's not official. Heh. Still I didn't feel right replacing Shezzar with Akatosh.


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~Xan
Wanna-be Geek
 Jun 23 2006, 08:30 AM
Post #3


Curate


Joined: 29-April 06




I feel like i should print this page, make mulyiple copies, put one in an air-tight safe and drop it into a lake, do other riddiculus things for security, and make it my lifes work to figure out what this means.

never thought i'd have a spy-moovie moment on the TES lore forums.



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I scored a 23.66846% on the geek test (out of 100)
Shardie
 Jun 23 2006, 08:32 AM
Post #4


Diviner


Joined: 17-December 04
From: Beware the Kitty-Dragon




Dont worry, Wanna-be, Im sure Xan will archive this page in his TIL

Shezarr is the coolest name for a god evah, thats why Ive always been a Shezarr supporter 


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Xanathar
 Jun 23 2006, 08:46 AM
Post #5


Disciple


Joined: 31-May 00
From: The Imperial Library




QUOTE(MK @ Jun 23 2006, 11:54 AM) 

Educated guesses beforehand are welcome.


Shezzar == Akatosh ? 


--------------------
~Xan
MK
 Jun 23 2006, 09:20 AM
Post #6


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 23 2006, 03:15 AM) 

Okay, I'll restore that piece. I tried to accomodate the new lore, the Shezzar thingies cannot be found in other references. It was given by you. The Great Pete says if it's not in the game then it's not official. Heh. Still I didn't feel right replacing Shezzar with Akatosh.


Pete couldn't tell you who Wulharth is, so he can bite me.
Gez
 Jun 23 2006, 10:00 AM
Post #7


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




Akatosh's depictions in Oblivion, as statues or on stained glass window, is of a two-headed being. A man with a human head, and a dragon head.

Akatosh being the same as Lorkhan makes sense, if Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus are the same. To create his empire of Tamriel, Tiber reenacted what Akatosh did to Lorkhan to create Nirn.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
MK
 Jun 23 2006, 10:19 AM
Post #8


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 23 2006, 03:46 AM) 

Shezzar == Akatosh ? 


You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.

Tamriel is an impossible place, built on impossible precepts. It's, frankly, a magic ball of sentient schizophrenia.

These are why the echoes in every corner of every myth. These are why the ease of men to immortals and immortals into frozen egos.

It is pure magic, thought up by the nagging itch called "if", which necessitated a "then", which in turn made everything scared that it would go away forever.

It is a baby universe with doom already marked on its head, because it cannot really exist, it has no real mother, and it doesn't understand how to get out, or why it might, or if it should because the rest of the void is a horrible thought filled with nothing. 

And it is not really populated by classic medieval Facegen people. At least in the eastern portions of Cyrodiil, it's not.
Adanorcil
 Jun 23 2006, 10:21 AM
Post #9


Diviner


Joined: 26-June 04
From: Isle of Artaeum, Nicrythe Tower




If I must put my money on theory, I'd say that there are closer bonds between Shezarr and Lorkhan than we always assumed. Whether those bonds are natural or artificial remains to be seen.


--------------------
"O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back!" - Pelinal-Ada

The Imperial Library | Artaeum Mod Project
Wanna-be Geek
 Jun 23 2006, 10:23 AM
Post #10


Curate


Joined: 29-April 06




^^ makes sence, and destroys all of my understandings of the lore of the TES multiverse, which is what to be expected when MK is hanging around here.

This post has been edited by Wanna-be Geek: Jun 23 2006, 10:24 AM


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I scored a 23.66846% on the geek test (out of 100)
Xanathar
 Jun 23 2006, 10:34 AM
Post #11


Disciple


Joined: 31-May 00
From: The Imperial Library




Dragon Break books say that there are some aspects of Auri-El in Akatosh, and those maruhkati selective dance like fools to split the aspects of Auri-El from Akatosh. By this book, I assume Akatosh == Auri-El. And then how come Auri-El "killed" Lorkhan and put his heart on his bow, and shot it across the ocean? Or... those maruhkati selective is a bunch of stoopids? ... wait, they didn't find a way to split it, right? hmm...

As usual you made me confuse.


--------------------
~Xan
Gez
 Jun 23 2006, 11:04 AM
Post #12


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 23 2006, 10:34 AM) 

Dragon Break books say that there are some aspects of Auri-El in Akatosh, and those maruhkati selective dance like fools to split the aspects of Auri-El from Akatosh. By this book, I assume Akatosh == Auri-El. And then how come Auri-El "killed" Lorkhan and put his heart on his bow, and shot it across the ocean?


And how come Tiber Septim "killed" Zurin Arctus and put his heart on his robot?

It's the human head and the dragon head fighting each other.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
Allerleirauh
 Jun 23 2006, 11:23 AM
Post #13


Diviner


Joined: 8-April 06




QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 04:04 AM) 

And how come Tiber Septim "killed" Zurin Arctus and put his heart on his robot?

It's the human head and the dragon head fighting each other.

If you played Daggerfall, you may know that it's never very clear whose soul is in the mantella. Is it the Underking's, or Tiber Septim's? The answer is that it's a false question. If the Enantiomorph is a conjunction of opposites, the conjunction goes all the way to the top.
proweler
 Jun 23 2006, 11:25 AM
Post #14


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Xan, ignore the monkey's, think Ouroboros.



--------------------
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QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Xanathar
 Jun 23 2006, 11:34 AM
Post #15


Disciple


Joined: 31-May 00
From: The Imperial Library




QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 23 2006, 05:25 PM) 

Xan, ignore the monkey's, think Ouroboros.


You're right!


--------------------
~Xan
featherbrain
 Jun 23 2006, 01:31 PM
Post #16


Disciple


Joined: 22-May 05




Excellent, nice to see that we now have a somewhat vaguely definitive answer to the questions raised in this thread:

Amulet of Kings, What kept the daedra away during the first two eras?

Is this what happens when you get bitten by Pete? 

This post has been edited by featherbrain: Jun 23 2006, 01:31 PM


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DragoonWraith
 Jun 23 2006, 02:11 PM
Post #17


Master


Joined: 14-June 03
From: New York City




I have no idea what's being said in this thread, but it sounds very important...


--------------------
"change the world..."
QUOTE(MK @ The Sword-Meeting of Lord Vivec With Cyrus the Restless)
Zero-sum Interrupt.

"Can you even do that, silly raga?"


Shardie
 Jun 23 2006, 02:14 PM
Post #18


Diviner


Joined: 17-December 04
From: Beware the Kitty-Dragon




QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Jun 23 2006, 11:11 PM) 

I have no idea what's being said in this thread, but it sounds very important...


To put it simply, both the Shezzar Camps and the Akatosh Camps are right

Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same beings.


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B
 Jun 23 2006, 02:40 PM
Post #19


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Joined: 10-November 01
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA




This is fascinating. Thank you, MK.


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Aki
 Jun 23 2006, 02:50 PM
Post #20


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Joined: 13-July 04
From: A Werewolf Den




QUOTE(B @ Jun 23 2006, 09:40 AM) 

This is fascinating. Thank you, MK.

I have to agree. Its' very interesting... 



--------------------
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QUOTE(Isidor)
Reichi, werewolf, and dunmer
rogue, assasin, friend, and lover
quick with a dagger, quick with a claw
quick he'll unstrap, your lover's bra
ikA

Reichi
Mu-
 Jun 23 2006, 03:04 PM
Post #21


Disciple


Joined: 20-May 06
From: the jaws of the Lion City




So Sytel was right, then? Now we know the other half is Akatosh.

(I guess my very silly question would be why :<)



--------------------
where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
Phintias
 Jun 23 2006, 03:14 PM
Post #22


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




Wait, I'm more confused than I am by default. If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then does that make Auri-El the same as Sithis? And Anu the same as Padhome? Or where Akatosh and Lorkhan different things until the Marukhati Dragon Break? And if that means the Heart is also Akatosh's heart, then does that mean Akatosh is dead too? Or I supposse all of that could be true and false, knowing (or not knowing, rather) how Dragon Break's work. *Sigh* Stupid universes with multiple-manifest realities. It's almost as bad as Discworld...


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
proweler
 Jun 23 2006, 03:33 PM
Post #23


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Phintias, Cold is the same thing as Warm. Lorkhan is Akatosh by the same logic.

You might also want to read something about Heraclitus.

This post has been edited by proweler: Jun 23 2006, 03:37 PM


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The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Phintias
 Jun 23 2006, 03:52 PM
Post #24


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




Oh, alright. Kind of like how Zurin is Tiber. Which actually makes more sense know... Zurin would be the Akatosh half, and Tiber would be the Lorkhan half. And same way that Tiber could betray Zurin, Akatosh could betray Lorkhan. This also makes the whole "Cloven Duality" concept a lot easier... neat.


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
B
 Jun 23 2006, 03:55 PM
Post #25


Diviner


Joined: 10-November 01
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA




So, what about the other Divines? Are all 'gods' really a single entity cut into many pieces (perhaps eight, or more), or are they simply one entity with schizophrenia, as MK suggested with Akatosh and Lorkhan?


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Adais
 Jun 23 2006, 03:56 PM
Post #26


Curate


Joined: 11-September 04
From: Ibar-dad. Yeah, I love that place.




Dang this is screwy. But what a fun revelation. Lorkhan should totally make an appearance in TESV


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proweler
 Jun 23 2006, 04:05 PM
Post #27


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(B @ Jun 23 2006, 03:55 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
So, what about the other Divines? Are all 'gods' really a single entity cut into many pieces (perhaps eight, or more), or are they simply one entity with schizophrenia, as MK suggested with Akatosh and Lorkhan?
[/quote]

Well the actuall swap over doesn't happen unless you aply a good amount of Magicka and turn the place into a Grey, see Trinimac <-> Malacath or Martin + AoK.

This post has been edited by proweler: Jun 23 2006, 04:06 PM


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Gez
 Jun 23 2006, 04:09 PM
Post #28


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jun 23 2006, 03:52 PM) 
Oh, alright. Kind of like how Zurin is Tiber.


No, absolutely not. What a silly idea.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
Adais
 Jun 23 2006, 04:14 PM
Post #29


Curate


Joined: 11-September 04
From: Ibar-dad. Yeah, I love that place.




Sarcasm?

I wonder who else Akatosh & Lorkhan could be. Jyggalag theory woot!

This post has been edited by Adais: Jun 23 2006, 04:16 PM


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A.C.
 Jun 23 2006, 05:07 PM
Post #30


Novice


Joined: 25-February 05
From: Art Deco Bachelor Pad




So Harrod-Never-Crap, master cook of the Greybeard God Ions Subclan, would say:

"One pertinent line of thinking in culinary divination is that of the ghostsoup Nirn, wherein boilin' liquids are magicka; meatballs, the prevailing spirits, as all meat hijacks a dish and is coterminous. The sheep-guar-whatever from whence they came: Anu-Padomay-Anuiel-Sithis. Cut up vegetables bobbin' up and down are the lesser spirits, that's minus the fae-easticlon. The Wheel is the plate, the Daedra are the dinner party. Inns are the recurring dogmas, the bill is CHIM, and it's the Towers' treat. I've never defecated once in my life."

I always thought of Nirn more as Lorkhan's "accumulation of wealth through long-term investment", meaning slow and safe. This is an awesome way for a universe to be though. Cool. 
Arklon
 Jun 23 2006, 05:08 PM
Post #31


Diviner


Joined: 10-July 04




Akatosh/Lorkhan is shaped like a dragon.
Nirn is shaped like a dragon too, I believe.
The Dwemer make their Orreries shaped like dragons.
So, what else is shaped like a dragon?


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vaanic~one
 Jun 23 2006, 05:11 PM
Post #32


Master


Joined: 5-February 05
From: England: Below Scotland, just right of Wales.




QUOTE(Arklon @ Jun 23 2006, 04:08 PM) 

Akatosh/Lorkhan is shaped like a dragon.
Nirn is shaped like a dragon too, I believe.
The Dwemer make their Orreries shaped like dragons.
So, what else is shaped like a dragon?


The Imperial symbol for the Septim dynasty is a dragon, too.


--------------------
From the beginning of eternity, 
to the end of time and space, 
to the beginning of every end,
and the end of every place...

Let there be an end to all things... 


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Artificer
  Jun 23 2006, 06:45 PM
Post #33


Novice


Joined: 4-May 06
From: Tel Vos, Morrowind




QUOTE(A.C. @ Jun 23 2006, 11:07 AM) 

So Harrod-Never-Crap, master cook of the Greybeard God Ions Subclan, would say:

"One pertinent line of thinking in culinary divination is that of the ghostsoup Nirn, wherein boilin' liquids are magicka; meatballs, the prevailing spirits, as all meat hijacks a dish and is coterminous. The sheep-guar-whatever from whence they came: Anu-Padomay-Anuiel-Sithis. Cut up vegetables bobbin' up and down are the lesser spirits, that's minus the fae-easticlon. The Wheel is the plate, the Daedra are the dinner party. Inns are the recurring dogmas, the bill is CHIM, and it's the Towers' treat. I've never defecated once in my life."

I always thought of Nirn more as Lorkhan's "accumulation of wealth through long-term investment", meaning slow and safe. This is an awesome way for a universe to be though. Cool. 


I believe that is one of the more profound things I've ever read on these forums. And done using culinary analogies to boot!


--------------------
Gods have forever to measure their words. Mortals only moments to hear them.
sóley
 Jun 23 2006, 06:56 PM
Post #34


Unregistered







Wow. If Tiber Septim-Zurin Arctus is analogous to Akatosh-Lorkhan, does this have anything to do with the reason why CHIM (change?) is the secret syllable of royalty?
Romano
 Jun 23 2006, 07:01 PM
Post #35


Disciple


Joined: 25-July 04
From: near three rivers




Now I feel like one of those Fallout mutants that scratches his butt and head and says >>my head hurts<<.


Please make some dogmas fast and with 2/3 approval. When I finally thought I know enough to understand a lit bit of everything, this thread comes like bolt out of a clear sky.  

Please tell that Daedra info is more or solid.

This post has been edited by Romano: Jun 23 2006, 07:03 PM


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QUOTE(Athesdas of Indoril @ Oct 9 2006, 10:06 PM) 

Don't make me get all four orders and those fruity guys by the mountain to come and pillage your ass!


QUOTE(stratigo @ Dec 14 2006, 00:22 AM)

Deka, we have to many perverts already
Gez
 Jun 23 2006, 07:10 PM
Post #36


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




Change is Chi, not Chim.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
sóley
 Jun 23 2006, 07:14 PM
Post #37


Unregistered







QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 01:10 PM) 

Change is Chi, not Chim.


Oh well, hence the question mark. Never mind then.

edit:
Actually, is there a source for that? Because "chimer" is supposed to mean "changed ones," and so my first instinct would be to translate chi into changed, past participle of change. Or maybe Aldmeris just eliminates redundant consonants. Not to be too presumptuous, what with me being a newcomer and all...

This post has been edited by sóley: Jun 23 2006, 07:23 PM
Sheogorath
 Jun 23 2006, 07:17 PM
Post #38


Master


Joined: 14-July 00




QUOTE(MK @ Jun 23 2006, 04:20 AM) 

Pete couldn't tell you who Wulharth is, so he can bite me.


I couldn't either, may I?


--------------------
A little madness in the spring
Is wholesome, even for the king.

- Emily Dickinson
featherbrain
 Jun 23 2006, 07:23 PM
Post #39


Disciple


Joined: 22-May 05




QUOTE(Sheogorath @ Jun 23 2006, 06:17 PM) 

I couldn't either, may I?

And now we have Man-Bite-doG, or maybe the other way around. Yummy.


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TES Lore FAQ
Gez
 Jun 23 2006, 07:45 PM
Post #40


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Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(sóley @ Jun 23 2006, 07:14 PM) 
Actually, is there a source for that?

Yes.


QUOTE(sóley @ Jun 23 2006, 07:14 PM) 
Or maybe Aldmeris just eliminates redundant consonants.


Like in Vvardenfell? If you object it isn't pure aldmeri, then the names of Ayleid ruins should be more acceptable. I see Anutwyll, Culotte, and Elenglynn. (Culotte, in particular, amuses me.)

This post has been edited by Gez: Jun 23 2006, 07:46 PM

sóley
 Jun 23 2006, 08:07 PM
Post #41


Unregistered







QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 01:45 PM) 



So according to your source, "chi" means "changed." It never translates "chi" as "change," and it says nothing about the meaning of "chim." "Chi" could still very well only mean "changed" and not "change."

QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 01:45 PM) 

Like in Vvardenfell? If you object it isn't pure aldmeri, then the names of Ayleid ruins should be more acceptable. I see Anutwyll, Culotte, and Elenglynn. (Culotte, in particular, amuses me.)


I won't object that it's not pure Aldmeris. I will object that Aldmeris as a language is pretty synthetic, and many synthetic languages have rules regarding the attachment of particles that change one or both in some way. In Icelandic, for instance, there is fraction (brottfall) according to which word roots lose syllables if another syllable is appended to them. Jökull (glacier) becomes jöklar in the plural, because the nominative plural ending is -ar. 

So the counterexamples you provide are only really counterexamples if the double consonants belong to different particles: V/vardenfel/l, Anutwyl/l, Culot/te, Elengyn/n, and so on. I'm pretty sure they don't. But Chimer contains two particles, so it could easily be Chim/mer. Show me an Aldmeris compound word in which the first particle ends with the first letter of the second particle and I'll be a little bit more convinced.
proweler
 Jun 23 2006, 08:08 PM
Post #42


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(sóley @ Jun 23 2006, 06:56 PM) 

Wow. If Tiber Septim-Zurin Arctus is analogous to Akatosh-Lorkhan, does this have anything to do with the reason why CHIM (change?) is the secret syllable of royalty?


I think the connection between the meaning and the position is co-incidentally.

CHIM mean 'royalty', 'starlight', and 'high splendor' as that is how Lorkhan explained it to the other et'Ada. They would find another way to jump back to the Far Shores, Aetherius, hence starlight. Auri-el would be it's King, hence royalty. It would also be a glorious attempt to create a soul for the soul of Anu, hence the high splendor.

The Symbol itself however looks like a Crowned Tower that treatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration. This is much closer to the actuall nature of CHIM. A return to the first brush of Anu and Padomay, a Perfect Grey that will split up in Void and Magicka.

QUOTE(Romano @ Jun 23 2006, 07:01 PM) 

Please tell that Daedra info is more or solid.


Grey Maybe.

---

Now lets not drift of to far from the actuall topic. 

This post has been edited by proweler: Jun 23 2006, 08:10 PM


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Gez
 Jun 23 2006, 08:29 PM
Post #43


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(sóley @ Jun 23 2006, 08:07 PM) 
So according to your source, "chi" means "changed." It never translates "chi" as "change," and it says nothing about the meaning of "chim." "Chi" could still very well only mean "changed" and not "change."


Sigh. You've searched for the first instance of chi and didn't read further, did you?

QUOTE
Chavana Emalur : Antabolis Hasphat's transcription of the Aldmeri particle "chi" as "crafty" or "of the craftsman class" is based on mistaken analogies with the "ki" or "xi" particles common to 1st Era literary Aldmeri. Literary Aldmeri diverged in form and function from formal Aldmeri before the First Era. Hasphat's overlooking the more modern ascription of "chi" as "changed", or "corrupted", or "accursed," seems peculiar from a scholar aspiring to modernity. I note that Hasphat's "Dunmer and Chimer in the Mythic Era: A Social History" is dedicated to his patron, His Excellency, Muthser Romori Sedur Norilnor, Dunmeri of House Hlaalu, a prosperous and bloated plutocrat grown fat at the tables of the Imperial monopolists, whose interests in the whitewashing of the Dark Elven Curse must be obvious to even the most casual observer.

Chavana Emalur humble scribe, initiate of the Shrine of the Hidden Saints, Narsis, Morrowind.


As to your second point, I would point out the Direnni and Telvanni, which are seemingly derived from Diren and Telvan, respectively. (Early Morrowind document shows Telvanni written as Telvani.) The -i suffix provoked the redundancy of the n, which is exactly the opposite of your brottfall.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
sóley
 Jun 23 2006, 08:44 PM
Post #44


Unregistered







QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 02:29 PM) 

Sigh. You've searched for the first instance of chi and didn't read further, did you?


Actually no, I searched for all instances of chi and read each one. The passage you highlighted translates "chi" as "changed." Which is exactly what I said.

QUOTE
So according to your source, "chi" means "changed." It never translates "chi" as "change," and it says nothing about the meaning of "chim." "Chi" could still very well only mean "changed" and not "change."


QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 02:29 PM) 

As to your second point, I would point out the Direnni and Telvanni, which are seemingly derived from Diren and Telvan, respectively. (Early Morrowind document shows Telvanni written as Telvani.) The -i suffix provoked the redundancy of the n, which is exactly the opposite of your brottfall.


That's not a counterexample. In fact it lends credence to my objection, since now we know that Aldmeris doesn't just attach particles with no modifications. Thanks for pointing it out.
Romano
 Jun 23 2006, 10:59 PM
Post #45


Disciple


Joined: 25-July 04
From: near three rivers




QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 23 2006, 09:08 PM) 

Grey Maybe.

---



 Actually it was perfect answer for an word missing and grammar violating post.






So Lorkhan has two aspects, two conflicting sides, but somewhat consistent "plan" - to change, to shift mortal plane and bring all that is left of (or represents) other deities essence to the original (or some other kind of) void.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's with other deities? Aren't they in opposition to Lorkhan?



PS This is only my conclusion from the rest of post prior to mine. Prove right or wrong!

This post has been edited by Romano: Jun 23 2006, 11:25 PM


--------------------
QUOTE(Athesdas of Indoril @ Oct 9 2006, 10:06 PM) 

Don't make me get all four orders and those fruity guys by the mountain to come and pillage your ass!


QUOTE(stratigo @ Dec 14 2006, 00:22 AM)

Deka, we have to many perverts already
Adais
 Jun 23 2006, 11:05 PM
Post #46


Curate


Joined: 11-September 04
From: Ibar-dad. Yeah, I love that place.




Wait. Lorkhan's trying to undo Tamriel? Or he's trying to bring everyone back to the Spirit World & make nice with the other Aedra.


--------------------
Blade ~ Block ~ Heavy Armor ~ Athletics ~ Armorer ~ Alchemy ~ Restoration
Best. Lore. Ever.
MK
 Jun 23 2006, 11:50 PM
Post #47


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




QUOTE(Adanorcil @ Jun 23 2006, 05:21 AM) 

If I must put my money on theory, I'd say that there are closer bonds between Shezarr and Lorkhan than we always assumed. Whether those bonds are natural or artificial remains to be seen.


Do you mean Akatosh and Lorkhan?

Shezarr is the Cyrodilic version of Lorkhan, so they've always been bound together.
Penta
 Jun 24 2006, 12:29 AM
Post #48


Curate


Joined: 16-April 04
From: Mannammu




I am amazed some people here seem to forget they came to the same conclusion (Akatosh is Lorkhan) two months ago.

Example, a post by Proweler
and one by Ramara

There were also a lot of hints in this topic.
And there were many more posts about this.

But this thread is a nice confirmation of my beliefs and those of many others.


--------------------
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors." - Gaiden Shinji, 1E947

Barra agea ry sou karan.
"Wear lore as your armor."

QUOTE(Loranna)
you need the spaces to define the spokes
Sytel
 Jun 24 2006, 12:53 AM
Post #49


Curate


Joined: 14-January 06




Akatosh is Lorkhan...
That makes so much sense it's scary. Time was Lorkhan's invention; time = change = mortality. Messing around with Lorkhan causes Dragon Breaks. Tiber as Lorkhan, Martin as Akatosh, the whole Dragon Blood deal, linear time vs. the Dawn Era...

Or maybe Akatosh is one half of the first Enantiomorph. But that leaves the question, who or what is the other half? I'm inclined to say Mehrunes Dagon, him being the Daedric god of change, but that might be too Oblivion-influenced of an answer.


--------------------
Morrowind: Return of the Dwemer
A tale of Resdayn reborn.
Join - Read
Nerevar! Kagrenac! Jiub!
Gez
 Jun 24 2006, 01:25 AM
Post #50


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




So, Akatosh is Lorkhan.

But that's not enough. Somebody else needs to be Lorkhan, too. For Akatosh is an Aedra, and Lorkhan is neither Aedra nor Daedra. Lorkhan needs to be a Daedra too, to truly be Nirn, to truly be Alessia the sweet wife of Shor and of Auri-El and of the Sacred Bull.

Morihaus, thunder god of the destructive voice, is Mehrunes Dagon. And Dagon is Dragon. The Aldudaggas are the story of Nirn tricking itself against itself to save itself, forcing itself to punish itself and to condemn itself to destroy itself so that it can recreate itself.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
needtofindausername
 Jun 24 2006, 01:37 AM
Post #51


Curate


Joined: 10-March 06
From: Connecticut (USA [duh])




My head hurts...

OK, so shezzar = Lorkhan = Akatosh = (maybe) Mehrunes Dagon? Wow, Nirn is even more confused than I am right now...


--------------------
QUOTE(Melkor20 @ Jun 23 2006, 05:53 PM) 

I slice bread without a to hit roll, does that make life a kiddie console RPG? 


104.765983083529284623542901% of all statistics in signitures are fake.
Sheogorath
 Jun 24 2006, 01:41 AM
Post #52


Master


Joined: 14-July 00




QUOTE(needtofindausername @ Jun 23 2006, 08:37 PM) 

My head hurts...

OK, so shezzar = Lorkhan = Akatosh = (maybe) Mehrunes Dagon? Wow, Nirn is even more confused than I am right now...


If you believe it, it's simpler. Everyone is everything.



--------------------
A little madness in the spring
Is wholesome, even for the king.

- Emily Dickinson
Marlo LaCroa
 Jun 24 2006, 01:51 AM
Post #53


Disciple


Joined: 3-March 05
From: The Imperial City of the Imperial Province




Akatosh=Shezarr? Wow....


But, Lorkhan ripped out his own heart to have it be the Heart of the World?  I need to go think about this some more.

And thanks for the revelation, MK.


--------------------
The true Prowlor. That other one ain't no Lore Master!
needtofindausername
 Jun 24 2006, 01:54 AM
Post #54


Curate


Joined: 10-March 06
From: Connecticut (USA [duh])




QUOTE(Sheogorath @ Jun 23 2006, 07:41 PM) 

If you believe it, it's simpler. Everyone is everything.


So Sheogorath = needtofindausername? Then why the hell did I just respond to myself!
And why am I talking to myself?

*Blames Sheogorath*


--------------------
QUOTE(Melkor20 @ Jun 23 2006, 05:53 PM) 

I slice bread without a to hit roll, does that make life a kiddie console RPG? 


104.765983083529284623542901% of all statistics in signitures are fake.
Gez
 Jun 24 2006, 02:00 AM
Post #55


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




No, no, it's obvious Sheogorath is MK. Both are former Bethesda dev, both wrote books, both care about lore, and when they're together, they fight! It has enantiomorph written all over it!


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
MK
 Jun 24 2006, 02:37 AM
Post #56


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 09:00 PM) 

No, no, it's obvious Sheogorath is MK. Both are former Bethesda dev, both wrote books, both care about lore, and when they're together, they fight! It has enantiomorph written all over it!


Awesome.
Ananke-Mormo
 Jun 24 2006, 02:48 AM
Post #57


Curate


Joined: 18-December 05




QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 23 2006, 10:45 AM) 

Yes.
Like in Vvardenfell? If you object it isn't pure aldmeri, then the names of Ayleid ruins should be more acceptable. I see Anutwyll, Culotte, and Elenglynn. (Culotte, in particular, amuses me.)


Vvardenfell is not just impure Aldmeri, it is full-blown Dwemeri.

I like how you talk about how Oblivion has terribly inconsistent lore in one thread and then use it to back something up in another.

I have no opinion either way, but your evidence sucks.


--------------------
Barra agea ry sou karan.
Tamriel Rebuilt
Arklon
 Jun 24 2006, 02:54 AM
Post #58


Diviner


Joined: 10-July 04




QUOTE(MK @ Jun 23 2006, 09:37 PM) 

Awesome.

Just don't rip each other's hearts out.


--------------------
98% of blah blah blah if you are the 2% yadda yadda yadda put this in your signature yakety-yak.
Adais
 Jun 24 2006, 03:03 AM
Post #59


Curate


Joined: 11-September 04
From: Ibar-dad. Yeah, I love that place.




Cmon man. That would be cool. Watch out forum, for you shall be smote by Akula-dev.


--------------------
Blade ~ Block ~ Heavy Armor ~ Athletics ~ Armorer ~ Alchemy ~ Restoration
Best. Lore. Ever.
Arklon
 Jun 24 2006, 03:06 AM
Post #60


Diviner


Joined: 10-July 04




No, Numidev would have to come first. And then it'd destroy itself 5 (or was it 7?) times because time would get [censored] up good.

This post has been edited by Arklon: Jun 24 2006, 03:11 AM


--------------------
98% of blah blah blah if you are the 2% yadda yadda yadda put this in your signature yakety-yak.
Tarvok Spellbinder
 Jun 24 2006, 03:35 AM
Post #61


Disciple


Joined: 24-December 00




I suspected as much.

My theory has to do with the convergence of multiple timelines. I suspect that the malleability of time as at the root of all the major confusions of Tamriel.

Unfortunately, though this idea shines brightly in my mind, I find myself unable to wrap it in vocabulary.

This shows, however, just how confused elvish metaphysics really is. Elves worshipped Auri-El, all the while hating Lorkhan. If they're the same guy... this is a bit strange.

I suspect Sheogorath is the true God of the Elves.  The theology of men makes more sense. Lorkhan (aka Shezar) is a god, plain and simple. It is ironic that it was men who attempted to "separate" Akatosh from Shezar, when elves have always believed that they were, in fact, separate, and that, in fact, they are not.



--------------------
- Tarvok, Forum English Teacher
Shardie
 Jun 24 2006, 04:07 AM
Post #62


Diviner


Joined: 17-December 04
From: Beware the Kitty-Dragon




QUOTE(Tarvok Spellbinder @ Jun 24 2006, 12:35 PM) 

I suspected as much.

My theory has to do with the convergence of multiple timelines. I suspect that the malleability of time as at the root of all the major confusions of Tamriel.

Unfortunately, though this idea shines brightly in my mind, I find myself unable to wrap it in vocabulary.

This shows, however, just how confused elvish metaphysics really is. Elves worshipped Auri-El, all the while hating Lorkhan. If they're the same guy... this is a bit strange.

I suspect Sheogorath is the true God of the Elves.  The theology of men makes more sense. Lorkhan (aka Shezar) is a god, plain and simple. It is ironic that it was men who attempted to "separate" Akatosh from Shezar, when elves have always believed that they were, in fact, separate, and that, in fact, they are not.


I personally think, that while Shezarr and Akatosh are the same, Lorkhan and Auri-El are very different beings...


--------------------
Proud Member of the Tedders Groupie Club

Member of the Forums Schollars Guild; A Trestise on Meridia

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Marauth Alaí-Rán
 Jun 24 2006, 04:47 AM
Post #63


Curate


Joined: 23-January 03
From: Balfiera, Iliac Bay, High Rock




So when Auri-El and Lorkhan fought physically in the Elven myths, were they manifestations of the two halves fighting in the same manner as Tiber and Zurin?

Or is that simply myth? And who or what is/were the other Aedra, especially Trinimac, as wasn't he the one who strikes down Lorkhan and takes his heart before giving it to Auri-El?

@ Shardie:

if Akatosh = Shezarr
and Akatosh = Auri-El
and Shezarr = Lorkhan
then Auri-El = Lorkhan.

They cannot be different if their 'other names' are the same, because those things are just names, cultural names. The significance of those names to the ones who use them is a different matter. To the Altmer Auri-El and Lorkhan are worlds apart (possibly literally), but to the men of Cyrodiil, Akatosh and Shezarr can be one and the same. The difference is in the eyes of the followers, not in 'reality' whatever that means in the royally-screwed up TES universe.


--------------------
Handy guide to Latin abbreviations:
etc. = 'et cetera' = 'and the rest' NOT 'excetera' or 'ect'
i.e. = 'id est' = 'that is' NOT to be used when giving examples which would be:
e.g. = 'exempli gratia' = 'free example'

I palori nimici fannu ridiri, chiddi di l'amici fanni chianciri
Shardie
 Jun 24 2006, 04:56 AM
Post #64


Diviner


Joined: 17-December 04
From: Beware the Kitty-Dragon




QUOTE(Marauth Alaí-Rán @ Jun 24 2006, 01:47 PM) 

So when Auri-El and Lorkhan fought physically in the Elven myths, were they manifestations of the two halves fighting in the same manner as Tiber and Zurin?

Or is that simply myth? And who or what is/were the other Aedra, especially Trinimac, as wasn't he the one who strikes down Lorkhan and takes his heart before giving it to Auri-El?

@ Shardie:

if Akatosh = Shezarr
and Akatosh = Auri-El
and Shezarr = Lorkhan
then Auri-El = Lorkhan.

They cannot be different if their 'other names' are the same, because those things are just names, cultural names. The significance of those names to the ones who use them is a different matter. To the Altmer Auri-El and Lorkhan are worlds apart (possibly literally), but to the men of Cyrodiil, Akatosh and Shezarr can be one and the same. The difference is in the eyes of the followers, not in 'reality' whatever that means in the royally-screwed up TES universe.


Akatosh begat from Shezzar, who is an echo of Lorkhan. He is the centre.
Auriel is not Lorkhan, and is not Akatosh. The selective took care of that


--------------------
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Member of the Forums Schollars Guild; A Trestise on Meridia

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Xanathar
 Jun 24 2006, 08:55 AM
Post #65


Disciple


Joined: 31-May 00
From: The Imperial Library




Could someone help me with this question:

Who is "the One God" in Alessian Order belief?

Akatosh? I don't think so. 
Shezarr? *shrug* 
or Lorkhan? 
Obviously not Auri-El. 
Don't tell me of one of those Daedric Prince... uh, or is it?


--------------------
~Xan
Carecalmo
 Jun 24 2006, 09:02 AM
Post #66


Disciple


Joined: 8-April 04
From: Ashalmimilkala




Someone should stick a warning to this thread, "Do not read while hung over!". 

But in essence, the Men and Mer and Rest are descendants from Aedra, who are all one and the same Mass. Right? And thus, the ChiMer and their First Council were all schizophrenic God-pieces. Then they found the heart. And became Gods. But they were already Gods. Somewhere. Right?

Xanathar, what I wrote here really didn't make any sense at all. 

This post has been edited by Carecalmo: Jun 24 2006, 09:05 AM


--------------------
Kiss the Earth, embrace the Stars and aim for Outer Space!
Lady Moiraine's Hall of Torque
Xanathar
 Jun 24 2006, 09:11 AM
Post #67


Disciple


Joined: 31-May 00
From: The Imperial Library




QUOTE(Carecalmo @ Jun 24 2006, 03:02 PM) 

Xanathar, what I wrote here really didn't make any sense at all. 


Nope, it makes sense if you regard Sheogorath's "Everyone is everything." 


--------------------
~Xan
Carecalmo
 Jun 24 2006, 09:26 AM
Post #68


Disciple


Joined: 8-April 04
From: Ashalmimilkala




Well, I was referring to somebody I edited out. 

But this then explains what happened to the Dwemer? They did elevate themselves to the OverGodHood that is the Too-Much. They lost their separate-ness from everything/everyone. Ha. More crappy Dwemer Disappearance. Trebonius Artorius would be proud. And Improper Capitalization. I like it. This is to be disregarded.

And the Tribunal made sweet music upon the Heart whilst Tiber Septim sang himself to the sky, bringing the choirboy Arkay with him. 
No, I forgot. Talos Septim is Lorkhan is Akatosh. And Arkay was also more than a mortal, he was a permanent part of the Arena-thing.

What I edited out was the uneducated guess that the One God is just Lorkhan-Akatosh. Or whatever names you like to use. But of course, that isn't exactly one god...


--------------------
Kiss the Earth, embrace the Stars and aim for Outer Space!
Lady Moiraine's Hall of Torque
Gez
 Jun 24 2006, 09:30 AM
Post #69


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(Ananke-Mormo @ Jun 24 2006, 02:48 AM) 
Vvardenfell is not just impure Aldmeri, it is full-blown Dwemeri.


Which is derived from what?

QUOTE(Ananke-Mormo @ Jun 24 2006, 02:48 AM) 
I like how you talk about how Oblivion has terribly inconsistent lore in one thread and then use it to back something up in another.


I don't remember anyone finding fault in Oblivion's naming conventions for Ayleid ruins.

QUOTE(Ananke-Mormo @ Jun 24 2006, 02:48 AM) 
I have no opinion either way, but your evidence sucks.


It's better than the utter lack of contradictory evidence.

QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 24 2006, 08:55 AM) 

Could someone help me with this question:

Who is "the One God" in Alessian Order belief?


Nirn. The Gray Maybe. The oneness that binds opposite into being the world.


This post has been edited by Gez: Jun 24 2006, 09:27 AM


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
Shardie
 Jun 24 2006, 09:42 AM
Post #70


Diviner


Joined: 17-December 04
From: Beware the Kitty-Dragon




QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 24 2006, 06:30 PM) 


Nirn. The Gray Maybe. The oneness that binds opposite into being the world.


Nirn is worshiped, in the nine devines, as Mara, or Kyne... one of those two


--------------------
Proud Member of the Tedders Groupie Club

Member of the Forums Schollars Guild; A Trestise on Meridia

Member of the Liberate Elderscrolls Lore Database from Bluedev Club, only we can get that database and all the jucy lore within
proweler
 Jun 24 2006, 12:24 PM
Post #71


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 24 2006, 08:55 AM) 

Could someone help me with this question:

Who is "the One God" in Alessian Order belief?

Akatosh? I don't think so. 
Shezarr? *shrug* 
or Lorkhan? 
Obviously not Auri-El. 
Don't tell me of one of those Daedric Prince... uh, or is it?


He is an abstract and unknowable depiction of a Single God, most often simply referd to as "The One". All the other gods are considerd to be a fractured reflection of him. I'd geus they were worshipping the Aurbis, it would explain their interests in the Psijic Endevour, but I really don't have much of a clue. It's not like somebody didn't burn all the Monestaries and left plenty of books from that Era for future generations.

Dragon Broke
Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of.


QUOTE(Carecalmo @ Jun 24 2006, 09:02 AM) 

Someone should stick a warning to this thread, "Do not read while hung over!". 

But in essence, the Men and Mer and Rest are descendants from Aedra, who are all one and the same Mass. Right? And thus, the ChiMer and their First Council were all schizophrenic God-pieces. Then they found the heart. And became Gods. But they were already Gods. Somewhere. Right?

Xanathar, what I wrote here really didn't make any sense at all. 


I think it makes perfect sense. It just means you'll have define god as: more then X power per unit of material or something like that. 

In that case scribs are all gods. 

This post has been edited by proweler: Jun 24 2006, 06:18 PM


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Sytel
 Jun 24 2006, 02:35 PM
Post #72


Curate


Joined: 14-January 06




QUOTE
Which is derived from what?

"City of the strong shield", apparently.

Or do you mean that Dwemeris is derived from Aldmeris? If so, it's pretty far derived-- since students of Aldmeris can't translate it, and it doesn't *sound* similar. An Aldmeris speaker would probably have a hard time wrapping his tongue around a typical Dwemeris word like "Bznthunch."


--------------------
Morrowind: Return of the Dwemer
A tale of Resdayn reborn.
Join - Read
Nerevar! Kagrenac! Jiub!
Cow Guru
 Jun 24 2006, 03:26 PM
Post #73


Master


Joined: 13-April 05
From: Scotland. Hooray.




How exactly did the Lorkhan = Akatosh revelation get turned into a rather dull arguement over linguistics?


--------------------
REL: Muffinwind 1.2
WIP: Snakes on an Oblivion Plane

omg lazerz pew pew pew


DragoonWraith
 Jun 24 2006, 05:19 PM
Post #74


Master


Joined: 14-June 03
From: New York City




QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 24 2006, 04:30 AM) 
Which is derived from what?

QUOTE(Sytel @ Jun 24 2006, 09:35 AM) 
Or do you mean that Dwemeris is derived from Aldmeris? If so, it's pretty far derived-- since students of Aldmeris can't translate it, and it doesn't *sound* similar. An Aldmeris speaker would probably have a hard time wrapping his tongue around a typical Dwemeris word like "Bznthunch."

Exactly. Ehlnofex (Ayleid) and Dwemeris can't be related to Aldmeris, or else someone would be able to read it. We know Baladas Demnevanni knows Aldmeris, even ancient Aldmeris, and we know he couldn't make heads nor tails of Dwemeris.

My guess is, for some, inexplicable reason, the Aldmer decided to create Aldmeris, despite already knowing Ehlnofex, and also decided to make Aldmeris completely different from Ehlnofex. I really can't see how this could happen short of a conscious decision to do so, seeing as they use different alphabets, different phonics, different grammars, and share no common words with the possible exception of "magic"/"magicka" - nothing of Aldmeris seems based on the earlier Ehlnofex. Now, if the Aldmer did this, perhaps the Dwemer did this as well (either afterwards, or separately, depending on whether or not they were actually on Aldmeris with the Aldmer, and left, or if they were always separate), but decided to keep Ehlnofex's alphabet (but nothing else). None of this makes any logical sense, but Dwemeris, Ehlnofex, and Aldmeris are far too dissimilar to be related.


--------------------
"change the world..."
QUOTE(MK @ The Sword-Meeting of Lord Vivec With Cyrus the Restless)
Zero-sum Interrupt.

"Can you even do that, silly raga?"


Allerleirauh
 Jun 24 2006, 05:29 PM
Post #75


Diviner


Joined: 8-April 06




QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Jun 24 2006, 10:19 AM) 

Exactly. Ehlnofex (Ayleid) and Dwemeris can't be related to Aldmeris, or else someone would be able to read it. We know Baladas Demnevanni knows Aldmeris, even ancient Aldmeris, and we know he couldn't make heads nor tails of Dwemeris.

My guess is, for some, inexplicable reason, the Aldmer decided to create Aldmeris, despite already knowing Ehlnofex, and also decided to make Aldmeris completely different from Ehlnofex. I really can't see how this could happen short of a conscious decision to do so, seeing as they use different alphabets, different phonics, different grammars, and share no common words with the possible exception of "magic"/"magicka" - nothing of Aldmeris seems based on the earlier Ehlnofex. Now, if the Aldmer did this, perhaps the Dwemer did this as well (either afterwards, or separately, depending on whether or not they were actually on Aldmeris with the Aldmer, and left, or if they were always separate), but decided to keep Ehlnofex's alphabet (but nothing else). None of this makes any logical sense, but Dwemeris, Ehlnofex, and Aldmeris are far too dissimilar to be related.

There are certain real-world human languages which change rapidly for various reasons. For example, there's a language in (I think Patagonia, it's been a while since I studied this) in which names are tabooed after death. For example, say you are named Raven. When you die, your tribe's word for Raven in your language has to be changed to a new word, because no one is allowed to say your name ever again. As a result, in a very short time, your tribe has a language that your neighbors, who used to speak the same language, can't understand.

Considering the little we know about Elven literature, which has been known to cause unwary translators to spontaneously combust, such an explanation isn't all that far-fetched.

This post has been edited by Allerleirauh: Jun 24 2006, 05:32 PM
DragoonWraith
 Jun 24 2006, 05:31 PM
Post #76


Master


Joined: 14-June 03
From: New York City




Hmm... I'd never heard of that. It's conceivable. But what of the Dwemer? That sounds very superstitious for them...


--------------------
"change the world..."
QUOTE(MK @ The Sword-Meeting of Lord Vivec With Cyrus the Restless)
Zero-sum Interrupt.

"Can you even do that, silly raga?"


Allerleirauh
 Jun 24 2006, 05:33 PM
Post #77


Diviner


Joined: 8-April 06




QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Jun 24 2006, 10:31 AM) 

Hmm... I'd never heard of that. It's conceivable. But what of the Dwemer? That sounds very superstitious for them...

I'm just pointing out that there are many, many possible reasons that Dwemeris can't be understood by modern scholars. If you limit yourself to mundane explanations, you will very likely be wrong.
DragoonWraith
 Jun 24 2006, 05:36 PM
Post #78


Master


Joined: 14-June 03
From: New York City




Fair enough. Alright, then can we agree that while the languages may have been historically related, at this point they share so little in common (if not nothing) as to be completely unrelated?


--------------------
"change the world..."
QUOTE(MK @ The Sword-Meeting of Lord Vivec With Cyrus the Restless)
Zero-sum Interrupt.

"Can you even do that, silly raga?"


needtofindausername
 Jun 24 2006, 06:19 PM
Post #79


Curate


Joined: 10-March 06
From: Connecticut (USA [duh])




At this rate, Sheogorath is the only god that actually makes sense...


--------------------
QUOTE(Melkor20 @ Jun 23 2006, 05:53 PM) 

I slice bread without a to hit roll, does that make life a kiddie console RPG? 


104.765983083529284623542901% of all statistics in signitures are fake.
Sytel
 Jun 24 2006, 06:34 PM
Post #80


Curate


Joined: 14-January 06




Two possible influences on Dwemer language development:
-The giants, if that old story is true and they weren't Ehlnofey.
-Their whole unified tone theory. They might have tried to make their words sound like the fundamental tones of what they were talking about, or something like that.


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DragoonWraith
 Jun 24 2006, 06:42 PM
Post #81


Master


Joined: 14-June 03
From: New York City




QUOTE(Sytel @ Jun 24 2006, 01:34 PM) 
-The giants, if that old story is true and they weren't Ehlnofey.

That story was made up to cover up poor translations.


QUOTE(Sytel @ Jun 24 2006, 01:34 PM) 
-Their whole unified tone theory. They might have tried to make their words sound like the fundamental tones of what they were talking about, or something like that.

That sounds possible! I like that idea.


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"change the world..."
QUOTE(MK @ The Sword-Meeting of Lord Vivec With Cyrus the Restless)
Zero-sum Interrupt.

"Can you even do that, silly raga?"


Ananke-Mormo
 Jun 25 2006, 12:07 AM
Post #82


Curate


Joined: 18-December 05




So are the Aedra real? It seems very strange that Akatosh is the only one who's ever done anything.

My guess would be that Padomae's side was split into Lorkhan and the Daedra because he was killed, but Anu was not split and remains only as Akatosh. However, this probably isn't anything more than what I want to be true.

This post has been edited by Ananke-Mormo: Jun 25 2006, 12:07 AM


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Barra agea ry sou karan.
Tamriel Rebuilt
MK
 Jun 25 2006, 03:42 AM
Post #83


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




"--one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"
Ananke-Mormo
 Jun 25 2006, 04:31 AM
Post #84


Curate


Joined: 18-December 05




If you're discussing the properties of each 1, then it is very important what order they're in.


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Barra agea ry sou karan.
Tamriel Rebuilt
featherbrain
 Jun 25 2006, 09:08 AM
Post #85


Disciple


Joined: 22-May 05




QUOTE(Ananke-Mormo @ Jun 25 2006, 03:31 AM) 

If you're discussing the properties of each 1, then it is very important what order they're in.

Especially if you're counting in base 2 (binary).


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TES Lore FAQ
Gez
 Jun 25 2006, 11:27 AM
Post #86


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(featherbrain @ Jun 25 2006, 09:08 AM) 

Especially if you're counting in base 2 (binary).


Then one followed by one make three, which goes with my idea that Lorkhan is not just Akatosh, he's Aldudagga, Alduin-Dagon. Two that make one which is three.

Aldudagga Ouroboros

See also Satakal, Anu+Padomay.


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If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
syronj
 Jun 25 2006, 02:49 PM
Post #87


Diviner


Joined: 27-February 05




We've been told there are multiple gods. Is MK saying there is only one God, who wears several masks? Or does this God have multiple personality disorder (different from schizophrenia)? How self-aware is this God? Does He realize he's fragmented? Is He physically fragmented, or just mentally?

The lore seemed to tell us that mortals, when they die, go to be with their various godheads. The daedra worshippers go to Oblivion to serve their masters, the good go to be with one of the Nine, and someone more knowledgeable than I (which is to say, most of you) can say what happens to the Temple adherents.

Is this still the case, or what is the truth now?

What's the ultimate goal the Lore is working toward? A kind of Nirvana where mortals become one with the universe and/or a supreme being?

This post has been edited by syronj: Jun 25 2006, 02:52 PM
proweler
 Jun 25 2006, 03:43 PM
Post #88


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




The Altmer hold it that Anu has a soul Anuiel whom uses Sithis to create his own thoughts. Following this logic, Lorkhan and Auriel are nothing but Anu's desire to qeustion himselves. Auriel was created when his thoughts kept on dying and Lorkhan was created when there was no more room for new thoughts so that he would recreate the Grey Maybe from which new idea's might come. 

Together they form Satakal, Alduin, the Serpent that constantly creates and destroys the world. Hence Lorkhan returns an empire to it's infancy while Akatosh makes them grow. Their behavior is not schrizofrenic, merely the reflection of Anu's desire to maintain a line of thought which requires him to construct (and destroy) and reset his thought after a while.

Perhaps it's better to think of the Aurbis as a computer who try's to find the meaning of life by trying each and every one possiblity. 

This post has been edited by proweler: Jun 25 2006, 03:47 PM


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The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Only Asks Once
 Jun 25 2006, 06:00 PM
Post #89


Curate


Joined: 24-January 05
From: Tucson, Arizona (Argonians LOVE the sun)




QUOTE(MK @ Jun 24 2006, 07:42 PM) 

"--one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"


Ahhhh... This relates to a quote about Nerevar/Nerevarine and Dagoth Ur - Could you even tell if the two switched places? Two sides of the same coin. 

Much like Akatosh/Lorkhan?


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From the Hist we Became and to the Hist we shall return

Love Vehk or Eat Rock - Loveletter from the 5th Era

Never ask directions from a two-headed clown - Ernie
Ira
 Jun 25 2006, 06:10 PM
Post #90


Layman


Joined: 23-May 05




QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 25 2006, 09:43 AM) 

The Altmer hold it that Anu has a soul Anuiel whom uses Sithis to create his own thoughts. Following this logic, Lorkhan and Auriel are nothing but Anu's desire to qeustion himselves.


Thinking this way you discount Anu and forget about Padomay. None could exist without the other. "Anu has a soul Anuiel (...)" means that something must have first inspired perfect stasis to act, to think. So Anuiel is a "child" of both Anu and Padomay, and so Sithis too. In my opinion first enatiomorph recreates itself in another, better prepared to exist in Gray Maybe. This one (Anuiel-Sithis) contains all of gods and daedra but because its further thinking and reverse influence is more and more advanced (more shades of gray), divine schizophrenia begins and creates multiple gods. Most of them in fact can be nothing but another masks of Anuiel-Sithis, they are unconcious aspects, rather eons than gods. But two of them (Lorkhan-Akatosh) are strong self-conscious and close in their nature to the archetype. First thougt that Michael Kirkbride presented here focuses on this third enatiomorph.

QUOTE
"Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"


I can't say which one of these two better describes its dual and protean nature.

'Can a member of the Invisible Gate become so archaic that its successor is not so much an improvement of the exact model, but rather a related model that is just needed more because of the currency of the world's condition?' 

This fragment is of course untrue and relates to Hortator, etc., but I like this sentence and I think it fits nice 

P.S. I love 36 Lessons and bow to you, sir MK  

P.S II Pardon my grammar and spelling, english is not my first language 
Allerleirauh
 Jun 25 2006, 06:39 PM
Post #91


Diviner


Joined: 8-April 06




QUOTE(syronj @ Jun 25 2006, 07:49 AM) 

We've been told there are multiple gods. Is MK saying there is only one God, who wears several masks? Or does this God have multiple personality disorder (different from schizophrenia)? How self-aware is this God? Does He realize he's fragmented? Is He physically fragmented, or just mentally?

The lore seemed to tell us that mortals, when they die, go to be with their various godheads. The daedra worshippers go to Oblivion to serve their masters, the good go to be with one of the Nine, and someone more knowledgeable than I (which is to say, most of you) can say what happens to the Temple adherents.

Is this still the case, or what is the truth now?

What's the ultimate goal the Lore is working toward? A kind of Nirvana where mortals become one with the universe and/or a supreme being?

Not an answerable question. This isn't an either/or thing. Many men, when they die, do go to be with their various gods. The various merish races never claimed to, and I have no idea what the Argonians think happens when they die. We're talking now about what happens when you jump out of that system.

The whole business is a lot easier to grasp if you've had a few courses on comparative religion... or maybe just done a bit of reading on other cultures. "There is something beyond the fragmented duality of what most people call the world, even beyond the gods," is an elementary proposition for a Buddhist. "God created both Good and Evil and his successive emanations are both farther from the source and closer to the ultimate manifestation of his desire in creation," is pretty basic stuff if you've studied either Kabbala or Gnosticism. The concepts and the language you learn in studying what real human beings have believed in different times and places are tools you need to understand any advanced discussion of religion - even fantasy religion. It's a heroic undertaking for MK to try to get everyone up to speed, and when he fails, everyone says, "What huh?" That's not really the fault of anything he's saying - cause it's not really that far out.

This post has been edited by Allerleirauh: Jun 25 2006, 06:40 PM
syronj
 Jun 25 2006, 06:59 PM
Post #92


Diviner


Joined: 27-February 05




QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Jun 25 2006, 01:39 PM) 

Not an answerable question. This isn't an either/or thing. Many men, when they die, do go to be with their various gods. The various merish races never claimed to, and I have no idea what the Argonians think happens when they die. We're talking now about what happens when you jump out of that system.

The whole business is a lot easier to grasp if you've had a few courses on comparative religion... or maybe just done a bit of reading on other cultures. "There is something beyond the fragmented duality of what most people call the world, even beyond the gods," is an elementary proposition for a Buddhist. "God created both Good and Evil and his successive emanations are both farther from the source and closer to the ultimate manifestation of his desire in creation," is pretty basic stuff if you've studied either Kabbala or Gnosticism. The concepts and the language you learn in studying what real human beings have believed in different times and places are tools you need to understand any advanced discussion of religion - even fantasy religion. It's a heroic undertaking for MK to try to get everyone up to speed, and when he fails, everyone says, "What huh?" That's not really the fault of anything he's saying - cause it's not really that far out.


Thanks, Allerleirauh. I don't completely understand why a God would create Evil, but that's not important here.

When I wrote the above, I realized that I'd never thought of how self-aware the god might be. Impossible to imagine how a god's mind would work; whether He would understand that he's fragmented. But you're right about the importance of knowing other religions.
proweler
 Jun 25 2006, 07:13 PM
Post #93


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Ira @ Jun 25 2006, 06:10 PM) 

Thinking this way you discount Anu and forget about Padomay. None could exist without the other. "Anu has a soul Anuiel (...)" means that something must have first inspired perfect stasis to act, to think. So Anuiel is a "child" of both Anu and Padomay, and so Sithis too.


Anu of the Altmer is the Void. Anuiel is Anu and Sithis is Padomay. Afterall it were the ruminations of Anuiel with the aid of Sithis that created the Aurbis. 

Heart of the World
Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.
This is somewhat contrary to "Sithis" in which Sithis is the Grey state of the Aurbis in which all the gods are mortal. So while I agree, with you on the origins of Sithis, the result of the interplay of Anu and Padomay, I pointed out the Altmer uses a different terminology.


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Gez
 Jun 25 2006, 07:30 PM
Post #94


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(syronj @ Jun 25 2006, 06:59 PM) 
I don't completely understand why a God would create Evil, but that's not important here.


Good and evil are relative terms, like hot and cold, or dark and bright. Just like heat wouldn't exist if coldness didn't, as everything would be at the same temperature (presumably, 0°K), goodness cannot exist if it's not opposed to evil.

Let's imagine a paradise where none of the things that are outlawed would exist. A world without murder, rapt, torture, rape, crookery, or theft. None of these things would exist, because it's our magical ideal world.

In that world, evil would still exist. Except that, instead of an evil person being a thief, they would just be a stingy person that wouldn't give things to people who need it. With all the horrors in the real world, not helping others is too tame to be considered evil.

But what if there are acts even more evil that could exist in a different world? Everything evil that we can imagine, we humans have done (or tried to do). Repeatedly, many, many time. But what if there are evil we can't even imagine? By not creating them, by not letting them happen, then our God did not create evil.


Oh well. I suppose this doesn't really make sense. I'm atheist and can't think like a genuinely religious-minded person.


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If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
Allerleirauh
 Jun 25 2006, 07:43 PM
Post #95


Diviner


Joined: 8-April 06




QUOTE(Gez @ Jun 25 2006, 12:30 PM) 

Good and evil are relative terms, like hot and cold, or dark and bright. Just like heat wouldn't exist if coldness didn't, as everything would be at the same temperature (presumably, 0°K), goodness cannot exist if it's not opposed to evil.

Let's imagine a paradise where none of the things that are outlawed would exist. A world without murder, rapt, torture, rape, crookery, or theft. None of these things would exist, because it's our magical ideal world.

In that world, evil would still exist. Except that, instead of an evil person being a thief, they would just be a stingy person that wouldn't give things to people who need it. With all the horrors in the real world, not helping others is too tame to be considered evil.

But what if there are acts even more evil that could exist in a different world? Everything evil that we can imagine, we humans have done (or tried to do). Repeatedly, many, many time. But what if there are evil we can't even imagine? By not creating them, by not letting them happen, then our God did not create evil.
Oh well. I suppose this doesn't really make sense. I'm atheist and can't think like a genuinely religious-minded person.

If you go beyond duality, there is no good and evil. 

Consider a book. Is the author creating evil because bad things happen to his characters? Or is he creating evil if he writes a boring book where no bad things happen?

Note that I don't agree with the above - necessarily. But it's one way that many people have looked at the problem.
featherbrain
 Jun 25 2006, 08:57 PM
Post #96


Disciple


Joined: 22-May 05




QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Jun 25 2006, 06:43 PM) 

If you go beyond duality, there is no good and evil. 

Consider a book. Is the author creating evil because bad things happen to his characters? Or is he creating evil if he writes a boring book where no bad things happen?

Note that I don't agree with the above - necessarily. But it's one way that many people have looked at the problem.

Boring books are, indeed, an evil. You've lost me a bit on the rest, though ...


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TES Lore FAQ
proweler
 Jun 25 2006, 09:08 PM
Post #97


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Jun 25 2006, 06:39 PM) 
QUOTE(syronj @ Jun 25 2006, 02:49 PM) 

The lore seemed to tell us that mortals, when they die, go to be with their various godheads. The daedra worshippers go to Oblivion to serve their masters, the good go to be with one of the Nine, and someone more knowledgeable than I (which is to say, most of you) can say what happens to the Temple adherents.


Not an answerable question. This isn't an either/or thing. Many men, when they die, do go to be with their various gods. The various merish races never claimed to, and I have no idea what the Argonians think happens when they die. We're talking now about what happens when you jump out of that system.


If it it a persons perception of a god creates his apperance then it will be a persons perception that decides his afterlife. Or to a bigger perspective as it all comes down to Mortal Mental stress, if a part of the Aurbis goes into a state known as death it will experiance where ever it's dreams will lead him in this experiance, be it his worst fear or his greatest dream.

Although I might add a few apostrophe's around apperance, god, person, perception, afterlife, death, experiance, dream and fear. 

Now this effect doesn't just have to reach inside a person. It's been said that while you life you affect the lifes of others, the more powerfull the person, the more powerfull his influence, so would "Gods" do this on the ultimate scale? The excistance of a Dragon Break seems to be some indicator of this.

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Jun 25 2006, 07:43 PM) 

If you go beyond duality, there is no good and evil. 


Mmh, but if one was made to statisfy the other and if you go beyond this duality there is nothing at all.

This post has been edited by proweler: Jun 25 2006, 09:11 PM


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Chazemataz
 Jun 25 2006, 09:44 PM
Post #98


Adept


Joined: 31-August 05




So, this can all basically be summed up as a type of Pantheism, in which everything is connected? So all are one, and all are part of one whole. 
So, therefore, everything is Lorkhan, and Lorkhan is everything??


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QUOTE(HappyHour)
I am no lier I swear to Oprah!!!


Selia
 Jun 26 2006, 12:17 AM
Post #99


Initiate


Joined: 1-May 06




From the perspective of an ant comprehending an elephant would be next to impossible. I would likely see only a piece or pieces to which I could attribute some particular thing about this massive creature. Another way of looking at this problem would be to see a jewel with many facets. Each facet casts it's own reflection of it's surroundings. What you see in those reflections may be different in each facet but it is still the same jewel. I look at Akatosh/Lorkhan like the pendulem of a clock. Would we notice if they changed positions? I would say probably not. We do not see the whole picture we only see fragments at best. For some reason reminds me of this whole cloven duality thing only seeing/understanding parts rather then the whole.
Dumbkid
 Jun 26 2006, 01:08 AM
Post #100


Diviner


Joined: 12-August 04




To quote from one of my favorite books, the Bhagavad-Gita:

Arjuna, four types of virtuous men are devoted to me: the tormented man, the seeker of wisdom, the suppliant, and the sage. Of these, the disciplined man of knowledge is set apart by his singular devotion; I am dear to the man of knowledge, and he is dear to me. They are all noble, but I regard the man of knolwedge to be my very self; self-disciplined, he holds me to be the highest way. At the end of many births, the man of knolwedge finds refuge in me; he is the rare great spirit who sees "Krishna is all that is." Robbed of knowledge by stray desires, men take refuge in other deities; observing varied rites, they are limited by their own nature. I grant unwavering faith to any devoted man who wants to worship any form with faith. Disciplined by that faith, he seeks the deity's favor; this secured, he gains desires that I myself grant.


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The foundation set, the craftsmen build, yet what is any nation without a cornerstone? An heir to lead, a hand to guide, ‘tis no man made able to measure the world’s foundation: Only the structure on which its walls are laid…

Arynel, Humble Breton Traveler
Lorus
 Jun 26 2006, 05:54 AM
Post #101


Disciple


Joined: 19-September 04




QUOTE(MK @ Jun 23 2006, 02:19 AM) 
You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.

Tamriel is an impossible place, built on impossible precepts. It's, frankly, a magic ball of sentient schizophrenia.

These are why the echoes in every corner of every myth. These are why the ease of men to immortals and immortals into frozen egos.

It is pure magic, thought up by the nagging itch called "if", which necessitated a "then", which in turn made everything scared that it would go away forever.

It is a baby universe with doom already marked on its head, because it cannot really exist, it has no real mother, and it doesn't understand how to get out, or why it might, or if it should because the rest of the void is a horrible thought filled with nothing. 

And it is not really populated by classic medieval Facegen people. At least in the eastern portions of Cyrodiil, it's not.
Wow. This is awesome. Whahoo! I can see how other people might have figured this out sooner, as some in this thread have pointed out; it fits the whole theme and ideas of TES cosmology so well.

So, if I am understanding this right, looking at this and other posts in this thread, it is just another Enantiomorph thing of is-the-same-but-is-not all at once, going along with the belief in the wholeness/oneness of the Aurbis, and highlighting the whole idea of CHIM (as I understand it, anyway) of seeing yourself as being everything yet something separate and individual (in a sense, a part of an interconnected web…or wheel, if you like)?

Right now, I really wish I could go and shout from the rooftops of Tamriel, “‘Shezarr == Akatosh!’ You have all been fighting over nothing this whole time! The Arena is one!” Of course, it would most certainly start some huge civil war (aside from the fact that they’d all think me a mad heretic and would brutally murder me it weren’t for the safety of my rooftop; there are good reasons for not having climbing or levitation) instead of a great hug fest, but it would be great fun to watch. 

…This also seems to explain why Alduin seems to incorporate aspects of change (even if they are, in a sense, ordered changed). That was a bit of a quandary I came across in some mindless ramblings of mine in another threadrecently, in which I, apparently accurately, claimed to not understand his true nature. Hah. I love it when I’m right about being confused and then I am somewhat enlightened.

QUOTE(Phintias @ Jun 23 2006, 07:14 AM) 
If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then does that make Auri-El the same as Sithis? And Anu the same as Padhome? Or where Akatosh and Lorkhan different things until the Marukhati Dragon Break? And if that means the Heart is also Akatosh's heart, then does that mean Akatosh is dead too?
I think you are taking it too literally (as well as Lorkhan’s “death”), assuming I’m not looking at this in totally the wrong way. It is like they are both the same being and two separate beings; they are united on some higher level. It makes sense if you recall that originally there was neither Anu or Padomay, just oneness/nothingness (however you look at it), but then suddenly there they were, and how in one Altmeri myth Anuiel, after being created by Anu, is described as creating Sithis, his antithesis/double, to discover himself. Vivec seems to mention this concept of everything’s/everyone’s “double” quite often, as well.

QUOTE(The Monomyth @ Altmeri “Heart of the World”)
Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.
Anu in this description appears to be the ultimate/original “unity” of everything; he is everything and everyone.
QUOTE(Dunmeri “Sithis”)
Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.' 

Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been.
What the Altmer call everything, of course, the Dunmer call nothing; just to cause trouble really, I think. 
QUOTE(Vehk’s Teachings @ Concerning the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor)
It is interesting to note that their original views were very unorthodox for Altmer, and thus their exile from Alinor. These views included the suggestion that Anu’s son, the Time Dragon, was formed in reaction to Padhome’s influence. In effect, Anu had finally done something. This inconceivable effect gave rise to an equally inconceivable cause, and so PSJJJJ was named and the Order eventually took his name.
This would make me think the Psijics believe something similarly, but Vivec’s/MK’s comment that the Psijics’ beliefs have no relation to the Dunmers’ and the fact they seem incredibly similar to me throw much doubt on that and my understanding (or lack thereof) of the Psijics.
QUOTE( Vehk’s Teachings @ The Tower)
What is the Tower’s secret?

How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.
QUOTE(The Loveletter from the Fifth Era on the Sermon of Love/“The Double”/Nu-Mantia)
“To keep one's powers intact at such a stage is to allow for the existence of what can only be called a continual spirit. Make of your love a defense against the horizon. Pure existence is only granted to the holy, which comes in a myriad of forms, half of them frightening and the other half divided into equal parts purposeless and assured. Late is the lover that comes to this by any other walking way than the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world. The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened.

Lull calls this a refutation of sorts, but the wise may know it as the first appearance of Nu-Mantia, which is Liberty. Rather, the road to Liberty.
Emphasis mine

Essentially, what it seems to me, is Vivec/MK is just again stating the need to “exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble,” to truly understand the universe and achieve CHIM, and that, ultimately, everything is actually one, there is no Anu-Padhome (or Akatosh-Lorkhan or me-you…or MK-Ted ) and the lover/achiever of CHIM knows this.

QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 23 2006, 12:08 PM) 
CHIM mean 'royalty', 'starlight', and 'high splendor' as that is how Lorkhan explained it to the other et'Ada. They would find another way to jump back to the Far Shores, Aetherius, hence starlight. Auri-el would be it's King, hence royalty. It would also be a glorious attempt to create a soul for the soul of Anu, hence the high splendor.

The Symbol itself however looks like a Crowned Tower that treatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration. This is much closer to the actuall nature of CHIM. A return to the first brush of Anu and Padomay, a Perfect Grey that will split up in Void and Magicka.
That’s a wonderful explanation of CHIM and the creation of Mundus, Proweler.

QUOTE(Adais @ Jun 23 2006, 03:05 PM) 
Wait. Lorkhan's trying to undo Tamriel? Or he's trying to bring everyone back to the Spirit World & make nice with the other Aedra.
My opinion would be that he is trying to move everyone beyond both Nirn and the previous way of the life of the et’ada.

QUOTE(Sytel @ Jun 23 2006, 04:53 PM) 
Akatosh is Lorkhan...
That makes so much sense it's scary. Time was Lorkhan's invention; time = change = mortality. Messing around with Lorkhan causes Dragon Breaks. Tiber as Lorkhan, Martin as Akatosh, the whole Dragon Blood deal, linear time vs. the Dawn Era...

Or maybe Akatosh is one half of the first Enantiomorph. But that leaves the question, who or what is the other half? I'm inclined to say Mehrunes Dagon, him being the Daedric god of change, but that might be too Oblivion-influenced of an answer.
Great, I totally concur, except for the fact that the other half this “Enantiomorph” involving Akatosh would seem to be Lorkhan.

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Jun 23 2006, 05:51 PM) 
But, Lorkhan ripped out his own heart to have it be the Heart of the World? 
As others have pointed out, the Enantiomorph of Tiber-Zurin did something similar with the creation of the Mantella, except now you have the Enantiomorph of Akatosh-Lorkhan and the Heart of Lorkhan. They would seem to mirror each other. In fact, a lot of actions and people in Nirn seem to reflect events and spirits in the Mythic Era and even earlier. Just a repeating, cyclic story on different levels, one within the other.

QUOTE(Tarvok Spellbinder @ Jun 23 2006, 07:35 PM) 
My theory has to do with the convergence of multiple timelines. I suspect that the malleability of time as at the root of all the major confusions of Tamriel.

Unfortunately, though this idea shines brightly in my mind, I find myself unable to wrap it in vocabulary.
That makes sense to me. It does seem as if the whole mucking with time/Dragon Breaks thing is really important on Nirn and has some sort of connection to divinity’s influence. You have time forming and allowing the other spirits to form, the lack of stability during the Mythic Era with all the gods walking around, the stability coming when the gods leave, die, or become the Earth Bones, Vivec’s claim of two timelines (one where the Tribunal are gods and another where they are mortals) converging with the Tribunal’s interactions with the Heart at Red Mountain, the Middle Dawn where the Marukhati Selectives attempted to perform surgery on Akatosh, the Warp in the West where there was some apotheosis happening, and the Mythic Dawn folks wanting to return to the flux of the Mythic/Middle Dawn states and to use this to reach godhood.

QUOTE(Tarvok Spellbinder @ Jun 23 2006, 07:35 PM) 
The theology of men makes more sense. Lorkhan (aka Shezar) is a god, plain and simple. It is ironic that it was men who attempted to "separate" Akatosh from Shezar, when elves have always believed that they were, in fact, separate, and that, in fact, they are not.
Well, that had to do with Alessia needing to tone down traditional concepts of the Dragon-god of Time and the Missing God, so extreme elements of the Altmeri and Nordic views were thrown out and you got a sort of synthesis religion that combined both views in a way. This annoyed Maruhk and the Marukhati Selectives who wanted more hardline Nordic beliefs, so they set about to fix it. Both the Altmer and the Nords thought Auriel/Alduin and Lorkhan/Shor were distinct beings. The Marukhati didn’t like the aspects of Auriel (the Altmeri Dragon-god of Time) in Akatosh (the Cyrodiilic one).

QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 24 2006, 12:55 AM) 
Could someone help me with this question:

Who is "the One God" in Alessian Order belief?

Akatosh? I don't think so. 
Shezarr? *shrug* 
or Lorkhan? 
Obviously not Auri-El. 
Don't tell me of one of those Daedric Prince... uh, or is it?
Well, here is what I got from some posts by MK in an older thread on this subject…It seems as if the One is related to the “wholeness” one is to search for achieving in CHIM and the Tower. It is the original/ultimate unity (and yet, individuality) of the Aurbis, the unity-individuality we’re supposed to find, and the possibility of our achieving of this. The whole idea of Akatosh-Lorkhan seems to agree with this well. All divinity and non-divinity are just aspects of some greater whole: the One.

…Most interestingly, on this subject:
QUOTE(Vehk’s Teachings @ Concerning the Psijic Order and the Psijic Endeavor)
Some of the Order’s precepts and ideas do (or did) flourish in the beginnings of the Alessian Order, the Temple of the One in Cyrodiil, most Maruhkati sects (including the Selectives, though they would deny it), Ancestral-Mothism, and, most famous of all, the Mages Guild.
That is what my brain came up with anyway, and I’m certainly no expert on interpreting MK.

QUOTE(Carecalmo @ Jun 24 2006, 01:26 AM) 
But this then explains what happened to the Dwemer? They did elevate themselves to the OverGodHood that is the Too-Much. They lost their separate-ness from everything/everyone. Ha. More crappy Dwemer Disappearance. Trebonius Artorius would be proud. And Improper Capitalization. I like it. This is to be disregarded.

And the Tribunal made sweet music upon the Heart whilst Tiber Septim sang himself to the sky, bringing the choirboy Arkay with him. 
No, I forgot. Talos Septim is Lorkhan is Akatosh. And Arkay was also more than a mortal, he was a permanent part of the Arena-thing.

What I edited out was the uneducated guess that the One God is just Lorkhan-Akatosh. Or whatever names you like to use. But of course, that isn't exactly one god...
I must say, I love this post.  (Oh, and I do agree with you on the last bit, in a sense, no reason to edit it out).

QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 24 2006, 04:24 AM) 
He is an abstract and unknowable depiction of a Single God, most often simply referd to as "The One". All the other gods are considerd to be a fractured reflection of him. I'd geus they were worshipping the Aurbis, it would explain their interests in the Psijic Endevour, but I really don't have much of a clue.
I second Proweler.

QUOTE(MK @ Jun 24 2006, 07:42 PM) 
"--one and one, eleven, an inelegant number. Which of the ones is the more important? Could you ever tell if they switched places?"
Curse you, this is a perfect reference, MK! I’m jealous, particularly of the fact that you are the one behind these ideas too…

This ties in a lot of the connections and pairings Vivec makes in the Sermons quite nicely with the Akatosh=Lorkhan idea.

Looking back at the lessons of the ruling kings (one of my favorite parts of the Sermons), is leading my thoughts down an interesting path…Vivec speaks of needing to remove the other “one” and specifically of Nerevar needing to remove Dagoth Ur, his double, in order to be a ruling king, because, “The ruling king that sees in another his equivalent rules nothing,” hence it being important to be able to tell them apart. So now you have Akatosh removing Lorkhan, his double/other half, Tiber Septim removing his, Zurin Arctus, and the Nerevarine removing Dagoth Ur and Vivec (and the rest of the Tribunal) as Vivec instructs Nerevar in the Sermons via the Heart of Lorkhan, individuals Vivec seems to connect in those Sermons.

So is the whole idea that everything/everyone has a double and we feel the need to distinguish them, despite their seeming similarities, either because of real differences or need or imagined ones, and to destroy one of the pair? And hence the strongly dualistic conflicts seen repeated often in the Aurbis and the Arena? And their ultimate unity, seen or not?

…Okay, I think my brain is busted now. So much for my goal of achieving CHIM by the end of the summer…

On an end note, you’re absolutely awesome, MK. This is a great discussion; I think I have learned a lot from what you and others have posted (and going back and looking at existing lore again), and probably still will learn much more, especially if people correct anything I've misunderstood (or propose their view, anyway).

(Oh yes, and sorry for the ridiculously long post, everybody, particularly to those who actually read it. )

This post has been edited by Lorus: Jun 26 2006, 05:52 AM


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"...but the Whitestrake did warn against the growing love with Perrif. 'We are ada, Mor, and change things through love. We must take care lest we beget more monsters on this earth. If you do not desist, she will take to you, and you will transform all Cyrod if you do this.'" --Pelinal; The Song of Pelinal, Vol. 5
Xanathar
 Jun 26 2006, 06:30 AM
Post #102


Disciple


Joined: 31-May 00
From: The Imperial Library




Ouch! My brain is hurt.

Oh btw, I've updated the Timeline again as MK's request.


--------------------
~Xan
Shardie
 Jun 26 2006, 08:36 AM
Post #103


Diviner


Joined: 17-December 04
From: Beware the Kitty-Dragon




forget it 

This post has been edited by Shardie: Jun 26 2006, 08:37 AM


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Proud Member of the Tedders Groupie Club

Member of the Forums Schollars Guild; A Trestise on Meridia

Member of the Liberate Elderscrolls Lore Database from Bluedev Club, only we can get that database and all the jucy lore within
Mehrunes Dagon
 Jun 26 2006, 10:03 AM
Post #104


Disciple


Joined: 7-September 04
From: Oblivion.




I still hold that Lorkhan is a shattered god who really only manifests himself in little bits in the world. Mainly because Trinimac, an Aedra, shattered him, and that whole part of I-SAW-HIS-FREAKING-HEART-WITHOUT-THE-REST-OF-HIM bit. And I still believe that whole sundering process and Lorkhan tricking all the Aedra (except, aparrently, Akatosh) into becoming mortal and tying themselves to the Mundus process.

However, if we believe that Tiber Septim, and, by extension, Arctus, was an aspect of Doom Drum, then it wouldn't be that far of a leap to say that there really are only eight divines. Or Talos is Lorkhan represented at the table of the Aedra, as I more or less already thought.

And for another thought: If Lorkhan is a shattered God, then are the dragon breaks really a reflection of how Lorkhan's self is unstable at best and it is that unstability that mirrors over to Akatosh at certain points in time (or space, depending on how far up on the metascale you want to go).


--------------------
Do you hear something rumbling?
Gez
 Jun 26 2006, 11:04 AM
Post #105


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




Trinimac wasn't an Aedra, he was Auriel's champion. More a hero-god like Reman or Morihaus than an Aedra-god.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
Mehrunes Dagon
 Jun 27 2006, 07:01 AM
Post #106


Disciple


Joined: 7-September 04
From: Oblivion.




Well no, but I more or less consider him as an equal (because his remains did produce a Daedra).


--------------------
Do you hear something rumbling?
Sheogorath
 Jun 27 2006, 07:17 AM
Post #107


Master


Joined: 14-July 00




QUOTE(Mehrunes Dagon @ Jun 27 2006, 02:01 AM) 

Well no, but I more or less consider him as an equal (because his remains did produce a Daedra).


Gortwog and the shamans of Orsinium would half disagree with you. 


--------------------
A little madness in the spring
Is wholesome, even for the king.

- Emily Dickinson
Mehrunes Dagon
 Jun 27 2006, 07:28 AM
Post #108


Disciple


Joined: 7-September 04
From: Oblivion.




Equal to the Aedra! As Trinimac!

Padomay! You love twisting other being's words.


--------------------
Do you hear something rumbling?
Zerithan_The_Spellsword
 Jun 27 2006, 06:23 PM
Post #109


Curate


Joined: 18-December 05
From: Somewhere In Chorrol




QUOTE(syronj @ Jun 25 2006, 12:59 PM) 

I don't completely understand why a God would create Evil, but that's not important here.


If you really think about it, Evil is just a side effect of good.


--------------------
I am not here. What is here, but there without it's T?
We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.
proweler
 Jun 30 2006, 07:22 PM
Post #110


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Okay, I can't solve this one.

If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then how come there are eight spokes in the wheel? Or was the statement an over generalisation?



--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Allerleirauh
 Jun 30 2006, 07:34 PM
Post #111


Diviner


Joined: 8-April 06




QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 30 2006, 12:22 PM) 

Okay, I can't solve this one.

If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then how come there are eight spokes in the wheel? Or was the statement an over generalisation?

I think everyone has been taking this statement for more than it's worth. The two terms aren't so interchangeable that the words become meaningless. I am one person, but if I cut off my right hand with my left hand, it's not the same as if I cut off my left hand with my right hand. Just because I happen to be one person doesn't mean I cease having a stomach, or a left eye, even though both of these things can legitimately be called "me."

This post has been edited by Allerleirauh: Jun 30 2006, 07:49 PM
proweler
 Jun 30 2006, 07:39 PM
Post #112


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Ofcourse, the World-Serpent and his Hunger.

Cheers.


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Hecks
 Jun 30 2006, 09:19 PM
Post #113


Adept


Joined: 8-June 06




"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

- Walt Whitman, 'Song of Myself'

Hmm, this raises some interesting conundrums. At what point exactly does the severed hand cease to be 'me'? Or at what moment precisely does 'my' fingernail become 'a' clipping, skin become chaff, food become excreta, or thought become speech or writing? All of those indeterminate moments when what is created from/by 'me' becomes 'not me' (and I'm reminded here of why Plato referred to writing as a 'pharmakon', both 'drug' and 'poison'). 

I sense a further metaphor in the sad tale of Trinimac/Malacath. Maybe the Orcs have seen it the right way all along.



This post has been edited by Hecks: Jun 30 2006, 09:29 PM


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Experimental Magic v0.5
simulated spell effects, new magic school
MK
 Jun 30 2006, 11:46 PM
Post #114


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 30 2006, 02:39 PM) 

Ofcourse, the World-Serpent and his Hunger.

Cheers.


CHIM
proweler
 Jul 1 2006, 12:12 AM
Post #115


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02






Mortal Mental Stress


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
vaanic~one
 Jul 1 2006, 12:48 AM
Post #116


Master


Joined: 5-February 05
From: England: Below Scotland, just right of Wales.




QUOTE(MK @ Jun 30 2006, 10:46 PM) 


Damn, that's almost as [censored] up as I am...


--------------------
From the beginning of eternity, 
to the end of time and space, 
to the beginning of every end,
and the end of every place...

Let there be an end to all things... 


TESSource staff
Gez
 Jul 1 2006, 01:04 AM
Post #117


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(proweler @ Jul 1 2006, 12:12 AM) 


Warning: Accumulate too much Mortal Mental Stress, and you may fall prone to dramatic unwinding!


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
Polycarp
 Jul 2 2006, 07:58 PM
Post #118


Acolyte


Joined: 15-May 05




QUOTE(Gez @ Jul 1 2006, 02:04 AM) 

Warning: Accumulate too much Mortal Mental Stress, and you may fall prone to dramatic unwinding!

Wow...

You know, thinking over this entire thing I'm still way more partial to the Altmeri view of things. In all religions, in everything there is the basic idea that everything came from the same "stuff" or God or whatever. That everything when it is all said and done is "One." However that really doesn't kill the basic idea that free will divides them. The idea of Shezarr and Akatosh being one was previously related to the Hortator and Sharmat. Are they opposites that eventually equate to being on the same scale like good and evil, hot and cold, etc (however there is of course ideals such as "absolute zero" that I see as very similar to the ideals of "absolute good" core to some religions, it simply isn't accomplishable in current world format)? Of course. Does this mean they should at all be thought as literally completely and totally the same being? Certainly not.

We know for a fact that there have been divisions between beings such as Magnus and Lorkhan, we even have very good evidence of an eventual division between Auri-El and Lorkhan based on their beliefs (the Aedra believing that they had been tricked, Lorkhan believing what he always has and always will). Essentially the actions of the Maruhkati were simply to get Akatosh back on "their side."

Of course everything is One, the Arena is One. But that does not stop beings from being divided by why they think is right or good or eventually benefitial (Man/Mer schism, Psijic Endeavor vs. Anuism, etc.). Hence tbh I would not take this revelation too literally or go on massive tangents based on it. As Allie said, right hand is still different from left. For what it's worth I'll still hold to the ideals of Auri-El because that's what I believe is benefitial. You still have to weed out what is eventually good and evil, hot and cold, orderly and chaotic, and make your decisions. Just because everything is One doesn't mean all ideals are equal. And so let the schitzophrenia continue .

This post has been edited by Polycarp: Jul 2 2006, 08:02 PM


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"Thus did Lorkhan present himself as such to the demon Anui-El and the Eight Givers: as a friend." - Sithis

"The Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death. And so many of you give up." - The Loveletter
Pantheon
 Jul 3 2006, 08:28 PM
Post #119


Curate


Joined: 2-September 04
From: Putting old Gods to bed...




QUOTE(Chazemataz @ Jun 26 2006, 09:44 AM) 

So, this can all basically be summed up as a type of Pantheism, in which everything is connected? So all are one, and all are part of one whole. 
So, therefore, everything is Lorkhan, and Lorkhan is everything??


I like this idea...

Maybe all religions are brought about by our attempts to rationalise things from a state of separation when separation does not exist. 

We have evidence of creating this state of separation already, in our dream state, a natural state of our being. 

In a dream you create everything that is you (your perceived separated self) and everything that is happening to you and around you (your perceived environment). In this dream you create the illusion of separation. You literally fool yourself and experience all of the emotions of a separated state. 

Consider the following: 
1. That there is no such thing as separation. There is only everything. 
2. Nothing is everything, it just doesn't know that it is. Consider that the only difference between everything and nothing is a state of perception. 
2. The only truely realised state of being is a state of everything - all knowing, all being. A 'God' state of being. 
3. We are all God, everything, love whatever you want to call it. 
4. So why aren't we 'being' this? Because we don't think we are this. We perceive ourselves to be a separate being, living in a separate world.
5. The only way for God to know itself is to experience not being everything, thus it must experience separation from itself (being mortal, duality). How else could one be aware that one is everything, rather than nothing?

This post has been edited by Pantheon: Jul 3 2006, 08:55 PM
proweler
 Jul 3 2006, 09:51 PM
Post #120


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Sounds about right to me. 

Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower. - Vehk.


--------------------
DragoonWraith
 Jul 4 2006, 04:25 PM
Post #121


Master


Joined: 14-June 03
From: New York City




Heh, kind of like being able to live through the Total Perspective Vortex...


--------------------
"change the world..."
QUOTE(MK @ The Sword-Meeting of Lord Vivec With Cyrus the Restless)
Zero-sum Interrupt.

"Can you even do that, silly raga?"


Phintias
 Jul 4 2006, 11:07 PM
Post #122


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




Anyone else seeing the growing similarities with Hinduism? See, MK told us that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh, and the Aldudaggavelashadingas seems to suggest that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh-is-Dagon, too; all being part of some mystic Oversoul that is Aurbis. Perhaps this is the cosmic balance of things in the Aurbis: there is Lorkhan, who is Change, who transforms Possibility into Reality; there is Akatosh, who is Time, who both acts as the vessel and the sustaining force of Reality; and there is Dagon, who destroys excess Reality and returns it to Possibility, so that Lorkhan can Change again. They may not do this willingly, so hence it is the natural balance of things.

In Hinduism, (correct me if I'm wrong) they also have a cycle based on the Trimurti: the Creator, Brahma, the Preserver, Vishnu, and the Destroyer, Shiva. And all of these are also all manifestations of the Brahman, sort of the Hindu Oversoul, as are all the deva (roughly translatable as demigods, angels, spirits; all are incorrect.) Plus, they even have enantiamorphs and Pelinal Whitestrakes! Look at Shiva. He's Shiva, but he's also Bhairava, and Dakshinamurthy, and Nataraja, and Somaskandha, and Pitkchadanar. His relationship with Parvati (or Shakti; it varies) is more ambiguous. The best description I've heard is that, "there is no Shiva without Shakti and no Shakti without Shiva; the two are one, the absolute state of being." Sounds like an enantiamorph to me.



--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
DarthSithari
 Jul 5 2006, 07:10 AM
Post #123


Adept


Joined: 17-April 06
From: Seattle-The land of three-day summers!!




Anyone mind summarizing this for me? Turns out the whole lore so far is wrong about the aedra/daedra?

Who's MK?


--------------------
"ES/WoW/DnD is better than ES/WoW/DnD" = "Star Wars/Galactica/Star Trek is better than Star Wars/Galactic/Star Trek"

We're all nerds regardless!
Hrafnkel
 Jul 5 2006, 07:12 AM
Post #124


Curate


Joined: 14-April 05




He's kinda like the loremaster. One of the (former) employees of Bethesda. I wouldn't say the whole lore is wrong, just a new bit of information regarding these two in particular.
DarthSithari
 Jul 5 2006, 07:16 AM
Post #125


Adept


Joined: 17-April 06
From: Seattle-The land of three-day summers!!




Not to be rude, but if he's a former employer how is anything he says "official". The official lore is what's in the games.


--------------------
"ES/WoW/DnD is better than ES/WoW/DnD" = "Star Wars/Galactica/Star Trek is better than Star Wars/Galactic/Star Trek"

We're all nerds regardless!
Hrafnkel
 Jul 5 2006, 07:26 AM
Post #126


Curate


Joined: 14-April 05




Around here we tend to take more to what he says because, well... he wrote a damn lot of it. He knows it better than most of the current folks there, and he still knows how to actually relate to the fans without looking like he's waffling too much (and when he does look like it, he at least seems to have a good time instead of acting pissed at us for noticing missing details ).
DarthSithari
 Jul 5 2006, 07:30 AM
Post #127


Adept


Joined: 17-April 06
From: Seattle-The land of three-day summers!!




Ok, but if the next game(s) don't conform to what he says, whom do you side with? 


--------------------
"ES/WoW/DnD is better than ES/WoW/DnD" = "Star Wars/Galactica/Star Trek is better than Star Wars/Galactic/Star Trek"

We're all nerds regardless!
proweler
 Jul 5 2006, 07:32 AM
Post #128


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




The Lore has always been like that, MK is beeing kind enhough to exlain and confirm it. Considering he wrote most of the theophilosphicalmetaphysica lore, you can expect he knows what he is talking about.

Also his reply was in person, not in character so you can't take it litterally, the actall argument is a bit longer and still there for one to discover. You may wish to start reading here.

The devs used to have this great way of replying in character, anything out of character can be consider either a weaseling or some friendly advice. Basically it improves Lore a bit because there will be a fair amount of denyability incase it turns out to be different - see Fal Droon for that.
But really, you shouldn't comment on his credibility untill you have an idea what it's all about, you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

This post has been edited by proweler: Jul 5 2006, 07:34 AM


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Hrafnkel
 Jul 5 2006, 07:32 AM
Post #129


Curate


Joined: 14-April 05




I could go ahead and answer that... But really, who cares? We've got several years 'til then, no reason to worry about it now.
DarthSithari
 Jul 5 2006, 07:47 AM
Post #130


Adept


Joined: 17-April 06
From: Seattle-The land of three-day summers!!




QUOTE(proweler @ Jul 4 2006, 10:32 PM) 

But really, you shouldn't comment on his credibility untill you have an idea what it's all about, you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.


Oh I'm not. I'm just looking at it like this. Think of Bethesda as The Beattles and MK as John Lennon. He's just left the band. So whom do you consider the "real" band: Lennon or the others?


--------------------
"ES/WoW/DnD is better than ES/WoW/DnD" = "Star Wars/Galactica/Star Trek is better than Star Wars/Galactic/Star Trek"

We're all nerds regardless!
Hrafnkel
 Jul 5 2006, 07:51 AM
Post #131


Curate


Joined: 14-April 05




I was never a fan of either.  But let's go with MK. He does well enough filling in the holes they make in it all that we can keep believing him.
DarthSithari
 Jul 5 2006, 07:54 AM
Post #132


Adept


Joined: 17-April 06
From: Seattle-The land of three-day summers!!




QUOTE(Hrafnkel @ Jul 4 2006, 10:51 PM) 

I was never a fan of either. 


Me neither. 

Well, I've got a lot of homework to do now, and I just thought I'd finaly figured out all this aedra/daedra stuff too. 

This post has been edited by DarthSithari: Jul 5 2006, 07:55 AM


--------------------
"ES/WoW/DnD is better than ES/WoW/DnD" = "Star Wars/Galactica/Star Trek is better than Star Wars/Galactic/Star Trek"

We're all nerds regardless!
Hrafnkel
 Jul 5 2006, 07:57 AM
Post #133


Curate


Joined: 14-April 05




You've never really figured out anything with TES.  Just come to accept it.
Adanorcil
 Jul 5 2006, 11:15 AM
Post #134


Diviner


Joined: 26-June 04
From: Isle of Artaeum, Nicrythe Tower




QUOTE(DarthSithari @ Jul 5 2006, 07:47 AM) 

Oh I'm not. I'm just looking at it like this. Think of Bethesda as The Beattles and MK as John Lennon. He's just left the band. So whom do you consider the "real" band: Lennon or the others?

If the rest of the band members have stopped making music and have all bought themselves a big villa, living their lives outside of publicity, that is not a very hard choice.


--------------------
"O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back!" - Pelinal-Ada

The Imperial Library | Artaeum Mod Project
MK
 Jul 5 2006, 05:56 PM
Post #135


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 4 2006, 06:07 PM) 

Anyone else seeing the growing similarities with Hinduism? See, MK told us that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh, and the Aldudaggavelashadingas seems to suggest that Lorkhan-is-Akatosh-is-Dagon, too; all being part of some mystic Oversoul that is Aurbis. Perhaps this is the cosmic balance of things in the Aurbis: there is Lorkhan, who is Change, who transforms Possibility into Reality; there is Akatosh, who is Time, who both acts as the vessel and the sustaining force of Reality; and there is Dagon, who destroys excess Reality and returns it to Possibility, so that Lorkhan can Change again. They may not do this willingly, so hence it is the natural balance of things.

snip


1. You're quickly becoming one of my favorite lore-posters. Good work.
2. "Growing similarities" should read "similarities" as the tendrils you're mentioning grew up a few years back, only being stumbled on now.
3. Emphasis mine above, which is a good way to see this thing. Perhaps the best way. I'd see it that way, only with bunches of made-up words and new writings that contradict everything that was just said.

A reminder, though, that I have no in-character or in-game source to cite as backup, so I'm just talking here, not revealing anything "absolutely true".
Phintias
 Jul 5 2006, 06:26 PM
Post #136


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




QUOTE(MK @ Jul 5 2006, 11:56 AM) 

1. You're quickly becoming one of my favorite lore-posters. Good work.
2. "Growing similarities" should read "similarities" as the tendrils you're mentioning grew up a few years back, only being stumbled on now.
3. Emphasis mine above, which is a good way to see this thing. Perhaps the best way. I'd see it that way, only with bunches of made-up words and new writings that contradict everything that was just said.

A reminder, though, that I have no in-character or in-game source to cite as backup, so I'm just talking here, not revealing anything "absolutely true".


Wait... I was actually right?! Weird... 

This post has been edited by Phintias: Jul 5 2006, 06:26 PM


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
Nemarious
 Jul 5 2006, 11:09 PM
Post #137


Initiate


Joined: 4-July 06
From: Anvil, Mages Guild




You people have suceded in confusing the crap out of me


--------------------
SO...you seek the secret of my power young apprentice.
I have grown old and have no use for secrets , thus I shall tell You.
the secret...is....gahhhhhhh (dies of old age)
vaanic~one
 Jul 5 2006, 11:25 PM
Post #138


Master


Joined: 5-February 05
From: England: Below Scotland, just right of Wales.




QUOTE(Nemarious @ Jul 5 2006, 10:09 PM) 

You people have suceded in confusing the crap out of me


Our pleasure. Our absolute pleasure.

  


--------------------
From the beginning of eternity, 
to the end of time and space, 
to the beginning of every end,
and the end of every place...

Let there be an end to all things... 


TESSource staff
Phintias
 Jul 5 2006, 11:34 PM
Post #139


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




QUOTE(Nemarious @ Jul 5 2006, 05:09 PM) 

You people have suceded in confusing the crap out of me


Okay, look at it this way: the universe of TES is known as the Aurbis. The Aurbis is the mingiling of Anu, stasis, and Padomay, change. It is made of pure creative energy; you could call it possibility, reality, or most commonly creatia. All life, godly or otherwise, is made from the same creatia. So before distinctions were made, all spirits were equal, and were known as et'Ada. Now, all beings as we percieve them on Nirn are simply manifestations of the original soul of the et'Ada from which they sprung. A single soul may have many manifestations at one time, like how the soul of Mannimarco is manifest as both the God of Worms and King of Worms.In this same way, all et'Ada are really manifestations of the Oversoul: the Aurbis.

In particular, the natural balance that held sway in the timeless dawn, the cycle of Creation, Stasis, and Destruction, began to have myths developed around it by the primitive et'Ada. These myths took form (spawned by the then infinite creatia flowing about them) in one soul with three manifestations: Lorkhan, Akatosh, and Dagon. The cycle became as so: Lorkhan, who is Change, takes the creatia and changes it to reality; Akatosh, who is Time, takes reality and gives it means to exist; and Dagon, who is Destruction, who reverts the reality to creatia so that it may be re-made by Lorkhan. It's like the recycling sign. The catch is this: none of the three manifestations know that they are one, and do not act as a recycling machine willingly. Hence they are not masters of the universe: they are manifestations of a single natural cycle, and thus a single soul.

EDIT: Sorry for trying to ruin your confuse-y fun, vaanic. I can't resist the urge to pontificate. 

This post has been edited by Phintias: Jul 5 2006, 11:36 PM


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
Gez
 Jul 5 2006, 11:35 PM
Post #140


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(Nemarious @ Jul 5 2006, 11:09 PM) 

You people have suceded in confusing the crap out of me


Good. Now you just need to understand that this confusion is actually clarity.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
proweler
 Jul 5 2006, 11:36 PM
Post #141


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 5 2006, 06:26 PM) 

Wait... I was actually right?! Weird... 


Would you mind if I updated On Places Not Here with that info?

QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 5 2006, 11:34 PM) 

Okay, look at it this way: the universe of TES is known as the Aurbis. The Aurbis is the mingiling of Anu, stasis, and Padomay, change. It is made of pure creative energy; you could call it possibility, reality, or most commonly creatia. All life, godly or otherwise, is made from the same creatia. So before distinctions were made, all spirits were equal, and were known as et'Ada. Now, all beings as we percieve them on Nirn are simply manifestations of the original soul of the et'Ada from which they sprung. A single soul may have many manifestations at one time, like how the soul of Mannimarco is manifest as both the God of Worms and King of Worms.In this same way, all et'Ada are really manifestations of the Oversoul: the Aurbis.

In particular, the natural balance that held sway in the timeless dawn, the cycle of Creation, Stasis, and Destruction, began to have myths developed around it by the primitive et'Ada. These myths took form (spawned by the then infinite creatia flowing about them) in one soul with three manifestations: Lorkhan, Akatosh, and Dagon. The cycle became as so: Lorkhan, who is Change, takes the creatia and changes it to reality; Akatosh, who is Time, takes reality and gives it means to exist; and Dagon, who is Destruction, who reverts the reality to creatia so that it may be re-made by Lorkhan. It's like the recycling sign. The catch is this: none of the three manifestations know that they are one, and do not act as a recycling machine willingly. Hence they are not masters of the universe: they are manifestations of a single natural cycle, and thus a single soul.

EDIT: Sorry for trying to ruin your confuse-y fun, vaanic. I can't resist the urge to pontificate. 


So where do the other et'Ada fit in?



This post has been edited by proweler: Jul 5 2006, 11:41 PM


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Phintias
 Jul 5 2006, 11:38 PM
Post #142


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




QUOTE(proweler @ Jul 5 2006, 05:36 PM) 

Would you mind if I updated On Places Not Here with that info?


No, of course not. Wow... I feel important all of a sudden.


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
proweler
 Jul 5 2006, 11:48 PM
Post #143


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 5 2006, 11:38 PM) 

No, of course not. Wow... I feel important all of a sudden.


Somebody give him one of those things loremasters wear. Hats? Beards? Toga's? Glasses? Bourbon and Cofee?


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Phintias
 Jul 6 2006, 12:00 AM
Post #144


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




QUOTE(proweler @ Jul 5 2006, 05:36 PM) 

Would you mind if I updated On Places Not Here with that info?
So where do the other et'Ada fit in?


Hmmm... I guess the original et'Ada showed up the mundane way: random mutations in the fabric of possibility that created souls. More specialized souls, like the Daedra and the Nine Divines, would have been shaped by the beliefs/urges/thoughts/dreams/whatever of the early et'Ada. Mara showed up because of a need for Love; Dibella, for a need of beauty, etc.

EDIT: What do you know, that would mean that The Light and the Dark was right all along.

QUOTE
Somebody give him one of those things loremasters wear. Hats? Beards? Toga's? Glasses? Bourbon and Cofee?


Oooh! I call the last one!

Though in retrospect I'm not sure how one would "wear" it...

This post has been edited by Phintias: Jul 6 2006, 12:04 AM


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
Gez
 Jul 6 2006, 12:09 AM
Post #145


Diviner


Joined: 1-April 06




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 6 2006, 12:00 AM) 

Though in retrospect I'm not sure how one would "wear" it...

In a thermos vacuum flask balanced over your head. Don't let it fall or you get kicked out of the club.


--------------------
If you have an X-Box, don't bother making a thread asking for how to port PC mods to your console. If you want PC stuff, go buy a PC. If you don't want a PC, learn to live without PC stuff.
Phintias
 Jul 6 2006, 12:18 AM
Post #146


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




QUOTE(Gez @ Jul 5 2006, 06:09 PM) 

In a thermos vacuum flask balanced over your head. Don't let it fall or you get kicked out of the club.


Oh God, no... it's Madame Maol's Ballroom Dancing Academy all over again! Kill me... kill me before we get to the waltz. I always had to waltz with Perry O'Flaherty (we used to call her Perry O'Whalerty, or something like that), and we always had to do it with cups of tea on our heads.

NOTE: For my fellow scholars of Gaelic origin, I don't know why the good Madame's name was "Maol." Trust me, we had loads of fun with it though...


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
proweler
 Jul 6 2006, 12:26 AM
Post #147


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Well the alternative is to find somebody with glasses and share the contents of your flask. 

QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 6 2006, 12:00 AM) 

EDIT: What do you know, that would mean that The Light and the Dark was right all along.


Yes, that's what I always thought.


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
DragoonWraith
 Jul 6 2006, 03:56 AM
Post #148


Master


Joined: 14-June 03
From: New York City




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 5 2006, 07:18 PM) 
NOTE: For my fellow scholars of Gaelic origin, I don't know why the good Madame's name was "Maol." Trust me, we had loads of fun with it though...

Curiousity is killing me: I don't know a lick of Gaelic, but I'm intrigued by this and would love to know what you are referring to by "maol". Wikipedia'ing it only got me the name of a hill in Scotland and a saint from a really long time ago.


--------------------
"change the world..."
QUOTE(MK @ The Sword-Meeting of Lord Vivec With Cyrus the Restless)
Zero-sum Interrupt.

"Can you even do that, silly raga?"


Phintias
 Jul 6 2006, 03:58 AM
Post #149


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Jul 5 2006, 09:56 PM) 

Curiousity is killing me: I don't know a lick of Gaelic, but I'm intrigued by this and would love to know what you are referring to by "maol". Wikipedia'ing it only got me the name of a hill in Scotland and a saint from a really long time ago.


Means "bald." Heehee... Mrs. Bald...

God we were easily amused. 


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
JONJONAUG
 Jul 6 2006, 04:00 AM
Post #150


Curate


Joined: 5-September 05




After reading this thread I have come to two conclusions. Not sure which one to follow.

1. Everyone (read as: every god, demi-god, being, thought, spirt, or anything such as this in the Elder Scrolls universe/multiverse/really, really odd reality) is a part of one being. After going back and thinking about the views on Oblivion (how you can't kill a daedra, they just come back), I noticed that you can apply the same concept to everything. The Daedra are most evident, as they all have a strong "defining" thing to them (Dagon=destruction, Sheogorath=madness, etc.), but this can be applyed to lesser beings as well. When it comes down to it, everyone is at the same time both seperate and together. Basically, when someone were to die, they would return to this one being, then be reborn in some other manner, yet still remain a part of the world. This is basically internal conflict brought about in a really, really odd manner.

2. The plotline is made as ambigous as possible, with so many viewpoints on so many events that the devolpers can change ANYTHING at a moments notice without any reprecussions, thus leading to a convolted storyline that really makes no sense whatsoever.

One other thing.

Sheogorath is refered to as coming into existance "later". This can be seen as madness coming from an eternity of the realms just being really messed up.

This post has been edited by JONJONAUG: Jul 6 2006, 04:01 AM


--------------------
Silgrad Tower
If something in Oblivion makes no sense, Jyggalag did it
A-I have an opinion. I am expressing it
B-My opinion is different. I too am expressing it
A-I must now defend my opinion for someone else's opinion differs
B-I must now defend against the defense of the first opinion
A&B-INFINITE LOOP POWERS ACTIVATE
Phintias
 Jul 6 2006, 04:23 AM
Post #151


Adept


Joined: 27-May 06
From: The year, 2258. The place, Babylon 5.




QUOTE(JONJONAUG @ Jul 5 2006, 10:00 PM) 

After reading this thread I have come to two conclusions. Not sure which one to follow.

1. Everyone (read as: every god, demi-god, being, thought, spirt, or anything such as this in the Elder Scrolls universe/multiverse/really, really odd reality) is a part of one being. After going back and thinking about the views on Oblivion (how you can't kill a daedra, they just come back), I noticed that you can apply the same concept to everything. The Daedra are most evident, as they all have a strong "defining" thing to them (Dagon=destruction, Sheogorath=madness, etc.), but this can be applyed to lesser beings as well. When it comes down to it, everyone is at the same time both seperate and together. Basically, when someone were to die, they would return to this one being, then be reborn in some other manner, yet still remain a part of the world. This is basically internal conflict brought about in a really, really odd manner.

2. The plotline is made as ambigous as possible, with so many viewpoints on so many events that the devolpers can change ANYTHING at a moments notice without any reprecussions, thus leading to a convolted storyline that really makes no sense whatsoever.

One other thing.

Sheogorath is refered to as coming into existance "later". This can be seen as madness coming from an eternity of the realms just being really messed up.


Like I said. Tamriel is the giant Soul Recycling System. The original et'Ada just get incarnated or polyincarnated, die, and get sent back to the original Soul Vat: the Aurbis. The only reason the common Daedra have it slightly different is that they know that they are from the great Recycling Bin in the Sky, because the Daedric Lords enjoy reminding everyone of it (i.e. they do die, they just know they'll be reincarnated.) And the only reason the Daedric Lords get special treatment is that they have such strong mythic restraints and specifications that it acts like a life jacket: each time someone tries to push them in the water, they simply bounce back up. The Aedra and Lorkhan, now, they can die because they don't have strong enough mythic barriers since all their myths are contradicting.

Think about it. If you got a theological expert from each of the races of Tamriel, Akavir, Pyandonea, Thras, and a Dremora in a room and asked them about the nature of Akatosh and Lorkhan, they'd argue for days. If you asked them about the nature of Sheogorath, they'd be able to reach a pretty quick consensus. The Daedra have that advantage of one, uber-strong unified belief; this would effect creatia far more that many, split beliefs like those of the Aedra. Perhaps that is even why the Aedra cannot effect the mortal realm as much as the Daedra; the unified belief, and therefore unified soul, gives Daedra more ability to control creatia. The Aedra, in the meantime, are weakened by the lack of unified belief; the mythopoeic forces cause the Aedra to split into many seperate manifestations, each with only a portion of the capabilities of the original Aedra.

Wow. You made me think again. Good work! 


--------------------
'God hath three keys: of birth, of machines, and of the words between.' Now if only I could find my car keys...

LORKAN AE AKATOSH AE DAGON + BRAHMA AE VISHNU AE SHIVA + WENDY'S AE BURGER KING AE MCDONALD'S 
= Enantiamorph Cubed? 

Self-Proclaimed Official Forum Marukhati Selective
proweler
 Jul 6 2006, 01:12 PM
Post #152


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 6 2006, 04:23 AM) 
The Aedra and Lorkhan, now, they can die because they don't have strong enough mythic barriers since all their myths are contradicting.


When the Aedra were tricked into making Mundus they were acting against their Mythic Jacket, afterall they are suposed to be statically trapped in the Aether. Them pulling out of Mundus -or mostly just Auriel- would be the effect of their Jacket as mythically the Gods have no place in the mortal world. But as they sacreficed parts of themselves to create a special divinty NIRN, they also put part of their myth into Nirn so we are stuck with them.

Also the reason why Lorkhan and Akatosh apear to be so convulted at times, they are litteraly stuck together.


--------------------
The Imperial Library 

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM) 
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Emerald Melios
 Oct 21 2006, 12:21 PM
Post #153


Acolyte


Joined: 10-October 06




QUOTE(Sheogorath @ Jun 23 2006, 08:41 PM) 

If you believe it, it's simpler. Everyone is everything.


You mean....the Unus Mundus?

This post has been edited by Emerald Melios: Oct 21 2006, 02:55 PM
Doctor_Huxtable
 Oct 21 2006, 12:25 PM
Post #154


Diviner


Joined: 9-June 06
From: House Dragol Palace, Coldharbour




Holy hell a zombie!

No wait..it's just that thread that's older than my grandma.


--------------------
Go where you think you want to go. Do everything you were sent here for. Fire at will if you hear that call. Touch your hand to the wall at night.
featherbrain
 Oct 21 2006, 12:35 PM
Post #155


Disciple


Joined: 22-May 05




Rumor has it that not everyone in the Guild is happy about the ban on thread necromancy.


--------------------
TES Lore FAQ
Komaka
 Oct 21 2006, 12:53 PM
Post #156


Disciple


Joined: 9-June 06
From: Israel. If you see pyramids, you've gone too far.




Dear god! I've heard of thread necromancy, but this thread is practically dust!


--------------------
Wise Mage orders 
Apprentice learning 
Ritual turning 
Atronach burning 
Through the night
Albides
 Oct 21 2006, 12:57 PM
Post #157


Disciple


Joined: 23-August 06




QUOTE(Emerald Melios @ Oct 21 2006, 09:21 PM) 

Unus mundus?

Stop resurrecting dead threads. Especially if all you have to say are two words. I know it's terribly difficult, and having something to say might be terribly rare for you, but I'm sure you can exercise a bit of self-control.


--------------------
________________________
"Everything we see hides another thing. We always want to see what is hidden by what we see, but it is impossible."
-Rene Magritte
vaanic~one
 Oct 21 2006, 02:39 PM
Post #158


Master


Joined: 5-February 05
From: England: Below Scotland, just right of Wales.




QUOTE(Phintias @ Jul 5 2006, 11:34 PM) 

EDIT: Sorry for trying to ruin your confuse-y fun, vaanic. I can't resist the urge to pontificate. 


I hate you. 


--------------------
From the beginning of eternity, 
to the end of time and space, 
to the beginning of every end,
and the end of every place...

Let there be an end to all things... 


TESSource staff
Vipera
 Oct 21 2006, 02:43 PM
Post #159


Diviner


Joined: 21-May 06
From: Jacksonville, Florida Age/Sex: 16/Male




QUOTE(featherbrain @ Oct 21 2006, 07:35 AM) 

Rumor has it that not everyone in the Guild is happy about the ban on thread necromancy.

Some think [Moderators] [are] misusing [their] powers as [Moderators] to further [their] own goals. 

This post has been edited by Vipera: Oct 21 2006, 02:45 PM


--------------------
Vis consili expers mole ruit sua

Unofficial Flaming Liberal and Tree Hugger

Join The Community!

Further inflate my ego!
WKinkade
 Oct 23 2006, 08:27 PM
Post #160


Disciple


Joined: 21-September 03
From: Where all the Duckies come from!!! DUCKIES RULE!!!




QUOTE(Emerald Melios @ Oct 21 2006, 06:21 AM) 

You mean....the Unus Mundus?

I think he may actually be referring vaguely to CHIM... which would be odd, I don't remember seeing Sheogorath talk about CHIM much.

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Oct 21 2006, 06:35 AM) 

Rumor has it that not everyone in the Guild is happy about the ban on thread necromancy.

Yea, I'm in the Guild, and I'm not happy about it, or maybe I am and just don't know it, but anyway. If they don't want anybody to post in old threads, why not just lock them once they get so old??? The way I understood it unlocked threads are open for discussion unless they violate the rules, and upon a quick skim of the forum rules I found no mention of it being bad to bring back old threads... besides that, if the duckies want to dig around in the dirt for intersting objects, why shouldn't they get to tell other people about it when the find something worth commenting on...
tegger
 Oct 24 2006, 04:07 AM
Post #161


Creepy ShadowLady


Joined: 11-September 02
From: USA




QUOTE(WKinkade @ Oct 23 2006, 03:27 PM) 

Yea, I'm in the Guild, and I'm not happy about it, or maybe I am and just don't know it, but anyway. If they don't want anybody to post in old threads, why not just lock them once they get so old??? The way I understood it unlocked threads are open for discussion unless they violate the rules, and upon a quick skim of the forum rules I found no mention of it being bad to bring back old threads... besides that, if the duckies want to dig around in the dirt for intersting objects, why shouldn't they get to tell other people about it when the find something worth commenting on...


There is no ban on thread necromancy. I'm not sure how such a rumor got started, unless someone misunderstood something along the way somewhere. It's perfectly fine to post something new in an old thread as long as it actually adds something to the discussion. However, we do tend to frown on reviving old threads by means of adding no substantial content.

I have to admit that I don't see how a bunch of subsequent off-topic pro- or anti-ressurection posts could be seen to help matters at all, though. If old threads are seen as important enough to merit survival, it would seem to me that everyone would work to keep them on track.  

(In other words, if folks want to make more comments about that kind of stuff, it needs to be done in PMs rather than in the thread.)


--------------------
Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(

Some % of forumers put fake statistics in their sigs. If you're some % of people who don't give a fiddler's fart, don't put this one in your sig.
featherbrain
 Oct 24 2006, 07:49 AM
Post #162


Disciple


Joined: 22-May 05




OT: I think some people have missed the joke somewhat, and the reference to Oblivion chatter. It is, howver, customary when resurrecting a dearly departed thread to actually contribute something new to the discussion.


--------------------