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The Daedric Chain of Command

Author: 
Anonymous
Librarian Comment: 

This thread was started on July 27th 2004. It talks a bit about the hierarchy of the Daedra, as well as the general nature of Daedric planes and the peerage system in real world England. Ted Peterson posts as both Sheogorath and Tedders.

Some posts have been trimmed from this transcript because they did not relate to the topic. A full archive can be found here.

Nanashi

When I wrote, The Maiden of Mehrunes I had alot of interesting ideas involving conflict and control in Oblivion with the Daedra, I wonder if it was ever discussed their 'chain of command' who obeys who and the like? 


TSBasilisk

The rule of Oblivion is separated into the various Spheres of the Daedric Princes, each controlling their own realm and the denizens within. The Princes generally act as equals, since they are essentially equals, and a fight between them could result in mutual destruction.

Below the Princes lie varying chains, which generally go from the strongest Daedroth down to the weakest(in this post, Daedroth refers to a single Daedric entity, not the type seen in MW). So a Dremora would be subservient to a Dremora Lord, who would in turn bow to a Daedric Count. At times, the chain might have a variance, such as a more intelligent scamp in the service of Malacath being superior to a stronger, but rock-dumb, Ogrim.

In interactions between the denizens of separate spheres, the strongest would control the exchange, or smartest if the difference is great enough. 


Marauth Alaí-Rán

One caveat to that the Daedra cannot be destroyed ever, only their physical manifestations can be 'killed' their soul will be cast into the farthest reaches of Oblivion to find their way back to their particular realm. There is a kind of 'order' to the Daedra Princes if you consider that some Princes - Malacath, who is not a true Daedra, he is the remains of Trinimac, and Peryite, the Taskmaster are considered the lowest ranking Princes. 


TSBasilisk

The Daedra can not be slain permanently by mortals, save for with the use of the Moon Reiver sword in conjunction with the Savior's Hide and the Daedroth's true names, true. But we do not know if another Daedroth can kill another. If you pit two powers of equal power against one another, they will burn themselves out trying to destroy each other. Remember that the Aedra could die, and the Aedra were once the same as the Daedra. 

And while those Princes may be lower on the totem pole, they are not at the point where any Prince can order them around. They might not pose as much of a threat, but their strength is sufficient to give the others pause before committing themselves to a depleting battle. 


Gleb

Remember that the Aedra could die, and the Aedra were once the same as the Daedra.

Tsk tsk TS. The Ancestors can die because they are bound to the Mundus. That means the et'Ada could not die because they are not bound to our world. The Daedra, not being bound to the Mundus, are unkillable. Theoretically, you could use your method TS to completly destroy the Animus, but how you would prevent the Daedroth from simply fleeing to Oblivion is beyond me. Unless, of course, you find some way to go into Oblivion, where, hypothetically, the Daedroth would be unable to flee, and would be easy pickings, but the Daedra you would likely insult would not be. 


TSBasilisk

You misunderstand me, Gleb. The Moon Reiver method is a quite difficult methods that even the hero of the Battlespire could not use effectively. But it is what that method does which is important. By speaking both names and striking with a sword filled with energy which causes the decay of immortal bodies, the essence of the Daedroth would be exposed to the one thing which could truly harm it by striking at the Animus.

But this is only going to work on Mundus, as the essence of the Daedroth is shielded in Oblivion. The chances of a mortal ever killing a Daedroth permanently are infinitesimal. But a Daedroth could kill another permanently.


Celezar

The rule of Oblivion is separated into the various Spheres of the Daedric Princes, each controlling their own realm and the denizens within.

When you say spheres, does this refer to seperate planets? Because from what I've heard about the realm Oblivion is that it is the space that files between the stars so basicaly it is outer space so I was wondering if the spheres were planets. 


El_Ahrairah

Daedric Spheres are methods by which the Daedra change. For example Hircine's sphere is the hunt. 

I would have you believe that Daedra are locked within them. That the Daedra must act within them. That they are slaves to them. 

It's also true that each Daedra Prince controls a seperate land in Oblivion. They all have their own armies of lesser Daedra. 


Gleb

Heh heh. Can't dispute the point that you messed up though. The Aedra can die because they are bound to Nirn, whereas the Daedra are not. Perhaps speaking the two True Names causes the Daedra to be bound in some way to Nirn? I didn't really get how I misunderstood you making a minor slip up. Unless you were talking about something else in my post? Please be more specific on what I misunderstood. Thank in advance. 


Celezar

So basically the spheres are what the daedra princes are princes of, for example Sheogoraths sphere would be the sphere of madness? 


**Sheogorath

A common misconception. Mine is the sphere of shoes, syrups, hairless animals (and plants), and light operas. And it’s not a sphere. It’s a baby blue Rhombus married to a sassy triskaidecagon with silver frustums and fat circumcenters.


Attrebus

Do shaved pets fall under your baby blue Rhombus married to a sassy triskaidecagon with silver frustums and fat circumcenters? That kind of rolls of the tounge, doesn't it? 

Also, does that make shoe wearing, syrup eating, hairless vegetable Lamb of Tartary in light opera's the embodyment of what you represent? 


TSBasilisk

The Daedra do not so much have spheres that represent them as they are the spheres. Hircine does not simply control the Sphere of the Hunt; he IS the Hunt. And be wary of Sheogorath's words, for he is dangerous to those who read them openly. Wabbajack...

To Gleb, a Daedroth is not completely immortal. The Aedra were once as powerful and nearly immortal as the Daedra. However, they gave up parts of themselves in the creation of Mundus, which stole away parts of their near immortality. If a Daedroth were to pit their power against another fully, they would gradually expend that power, weakening themselves. While the Aedra became mortal through creation, the Daedra would become mortal by battle. Once a Daedric spirit passes a certain critical point in power, it becomes partially mortal, and can be killed. 


Gleb

Oh yes. Basilisk is right. Be wary when speaking to ANY daedra. Especially a Prince. Especially Sheogorath. I almost had to be his plaything for 1000 years you know, just for defying him. No matter what you do, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, under any circumstances, challenge a Daedric Prince.

Basilisk. I fail to see how that would work, this total battle of expension. It seems impossible to destroy a Daedra Prince. Unless, of course, DPs are their spheres, but their spheres are not the DPs. An example in the RL would be, Catholics are Christians, but Christians are not Catholics. Sort of a quasi-accurate analogy. That's the only thing I can think of at this late hour that is similar. Yes, the Aedra can be killed, but let's get back to talking about the Daedra, not whether they can be killed.

It would seem that the Devs don't know the proper order of nobility. Barons, last time I checked, were beneath Lords. Was not so in the Battlespire. 


**Tedders

It would seem that the Devs don't know the proper order of nobility. Barons, last time I checked, were beneath Lords. Was not so in the Battlespire. 

You're mistaken.

It’s a fairly complex subject, and depending on the location, the hierarchal rules vary. After all, in the Barony of Dwynnen, there are no higher ranking people than the Baron (unless the Emperor comes to visit). 

In RW England, anyhow, there are five grades of peerage: Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron. Except for Dukes (and Duchesses), all are addresses as Lord in conversation. The Earl of Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark you would be proper in calling Lord Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark (as if that really saved you any time). 

There are also no Counts, but female Earls are called Countesses. 

There are also titles beneath Baron, Baronets and Knights, who are called “Sir,” but whose titles aren’t automatically passed down to their heirs.

Anyhow, I hope this clears up the question of whether the devs and ex-devs know anything about feudal hierarchy. 


Gleb

Hi Tedders! Could you, eh, post in the thread about where Mages and Priests get their spells from? It's "Priests Vs. Mages," I think. And I forgot that the hierarchy varies from place to place. And off subject, but could you please include Ayleids in the next game? Please ? Pretty please with an ash yam on top?

*Begs*


**Tedders

Alas, it is not up to me to decree which races are playable or present in the next game. 


Gleb

D'Oh! Oh well. Petitions seem to get things done. Maybe I'll start a thread like that. Could someone tell me which forum part that would go in? Community Discussion, here, the parts for the expansions, or Morrowind General? Or maybe all (Mods would kill me.)? 


***Tedders

Do petitions work? Well, I suppose they couldn't hurt.

If it's specifically about Ayleids, it'd probably be smart to do it in here, where people actually know what they are from the books ... 


Gleb

Hmm... This is technically the Elder Scrolls General, so I don't see why it would be moved, since that could include future Elder Scrolls games, and there were several threads about TESIV.

Also, while on the subject of Ayleids, did the of 2920 make up the description of them there, like he did with the Tsaesci? Because I'm thinking it would be good to include the only known description of them in the petition. I'd ask you in PM, but you aren't excepting any. And I don't think His Madness would give an understandable answer 

On a more related note, are Demiprinces like Fa-Huit-Nen from the Sermons to Princes as Her Hands are to Almalexia? Or do they merely rule over different aspects of the Prince they report to? Do they even report to Princes? I suppose what I'm asking is, could you clarify what the role of a Demiprince is? I humbly request this information. 


** Tedders

I’m afraid I’m not going to be much help on this either. I don’t really want to give away information about the Ayleids and the Daedra, as mysterious as both of those groups are supposed to be. 

I would suggest though that:

1. Ayleids, unlike the Tsaesci, are sometimes – if rarely – seen in Tamriel. So even if the author hasn’t seen one himself, it’s safe to say he knows people who have and he expects some of his audience has, so he was pretty accurate in his description. However unspecific that description was.

2. There is no specific function or duty of a demiprince. Some Princes have little organization and hierarchy in their realms, others have a very militaristic caste system. There’s no one answer to that, except the obvious: a demiprince is half a prince, a pretty powerful thing.


Miltiades

Hmmm, a little clarification regarding the defeat of Mehrunes Dagon at the Battlespire in respect to mortality/immortality.

Speaking the Neonymic of Dagon in conjuction to using the Sword of the Moon Reiver did not make Mehrunes Dagon mortal or anything. It only allowed the hero a brief chance at banishing the mortal form of the Daedra Lord in one blow.

As legend states, the Sword of the Moon Reiver was forged with the essence of Mehrunes Dagon; and thus by speaking the Neonymic (as Mehrunes Dagon could not be affected by his Protonymic anymore); the gateway was forced open. The Sword then acted as a catalyst to send the energy back through into Oblivion.

The Armor of the Savior merely gave the hero those precious few seconds in which to act before running the risk of being consumed by the power of Mehrunes Dagon (and thus, die).

At least that's my theory behind all of this...


Gleb

Thank you for the clarification. I'm glad to hear that the description I've been going by since I read 2920 was accurate, however vague that may have been.

Hmm... The only question that remains for me now, is whether "darker than an Altmer..." means darker than an Arena Altmer (Brownish skin), a Daggerfall Altmer (More mannish skin), or a Morrowind Altmer (Yellow skin). Heh heh. I think I've already found the Dev Excuse: "They changed breeding programs." 


Mehrunes_Dagon

What of Scourge? When actually used in Oblivion it is fatal to lesser Daedra. Or if used on a Lesser Daedra on Nirn that have no way of retreating it is also fatal. To any Daedra more powerful than the lesser however, it can only banish us (if our spirit is vanquished of course).

And forgive me for not paying closer attention here. I have been... preoccupied. 


Aeroldoth

In RW England, anyhow, there are five grades of peerage: Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron. Except for Dukes (and Duchesses), all are addresses as Lord in conversation. The Earl of Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark you would be proper in calling Lord Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark (as if that really saved you any time). 

There are also no Counts, but female Earls are called Countesses. 

There are also titles beneath Baron, Baronets and Knights, who are called “Sir,” but whose titles aren’t automatically passed down to their heirs.

I thought things went like this (not necessarily tied to England):

Archduke/Archduchess.........Your Grace
Duke/Duchess......................Your Grace
Marquess/Marquessa or
Marquis/Marquess................Your Lord-/Lady- ship,My Lord/Lady
Earl/???................................Same
Count/Countess...................Same
Viscount/Viscountess............Same
Baron/Baroness....................Same
Baronet/Baronette.................???
Knight/Knight.........................Sir/Dame, Your ???
Squire/(n/a?).........................Esquire/(n/a?)

You're saying that Baronet and Knight are non-hereditary? Also, is there any address for a knight other than say, "yes Sir Knight," as in "yes, my Lord?" What is the difference between a baron and baronet? Is baronet the title for a landed knight?


TSBasilisk

Knights must earn their title, and be of noble blood. Thus the son of a knight might be nobility or of noble blood, but not have his father's title. It is an honorary.

As for baronet, it is a rank between baron and knight, but is a hereditary position in England and Ireland. However, it is below the peerage of the nobility. 


**Tedders

You’re right. Baronet is a hereditary title. It’s the only hereditary knighthood in England. I was so flummoxed by Gleb’s assertion that the TES devs don’t know our titles of nobility that, ironically, I messed up one.

But that’s right: knights are addressed as Sir (First Name). All other titles up to Duke are addressed as Lord (Property name). The Earl of Wessex might be named Bob Billysnuck, but he would be referred to formally as Lord Wessex.

There’s a book in Daggerfall which explains how it works, including what Lord Wessex’s children would be called.


Gleb

I was so flummoxed by Gleb’s assertion that the TES devs don’t know our titles of nobility that, ironically, I messed up one. 

Ironically, I don't know the hierarchy myself . I live in America. 

Am I correct in assuming that not all Princes follow the same command chain? 

Last of my questions for you (Until TESIV): What's the Aldmeris name for Ayleids, and the Old Cyrodiilic name for Maormer?

*Laughs at what a pain it must be to be swamped with my questions every post* 


**Tedders

Ironically, I don't know the hierarchy myself

I know, but I do. That Baronet gaffe is something I’ll have to live down …

Am I correct in assuming that not all Princes follow the same command chain?

That would reasonable to assume.

Quote:
What's the Aldmeris name for Ayleids, and the Old Cyrodiilic name for Maormer?

Good questions … hmm … I don’t know. Someone might’ve written it up somewhere, but not me. Ask WormGod if he knows (and is willing to tell). It doesn’t sound like the sort of thing that would be secret.


Aeroldoth

So could someone explain please what exactly a baronet is? How are they addressed? Are they "lords" like the others or "sir" like the knights?

Would a female knight be Dame, or would they be Sir as with males?

How common is/was it in the UK to promote commoners to knighthood (or higher) for valiant deeds? I was always under the impression that there was a very thick line between nobles and peasants, and only EXTRA-ordinary events would let a filthy peasant join the perfumed ranks of the nobles. What would happen to their spouses or children? 


**Tedders

Knights and baronets are both called “Sir” as in Sir Launcelot or Sir Paul McCartney. His wife is referred to as “Lady.” A Dame is the female equivalent of Knight, given as an honor to a commoner woman, as in Dame Judi Densch or Dame Agatha Christie. Her husband is given no title.

Baronets were not created until the Renaissance. They are essentially the same rank as a knight, but the position is hereditary, as TSBasilisk corrected me on.

Here’s the book from Daggerfall that discusses the deal with titles in High Rock, which is slightly different to titles in the UK:

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/etiquette-rulers

How common is/ was it in the UK to promote commoners to knighthood (or higher) for valiant deeds?

Depends on the era and what you would consider frequent. Since titles are honorifics, they lose some of their luster by being passed out too frequently, just as people don’t get the Nobel Prize or Academy Award every day. Some English rulers have been more generous with passing out of titles than others.

Of course, while there are plenty of examples of someone doing something great for his country and getting a title, there are plenty of examples of a ruler in need of funds or an ally giving a title to someone for no better reason than to get at the money. It’s an easily abused system. 

The current Queen of England announces her “honours list” twice a year, at New Years and in June, which consist of all the new titles she is conferring based on merit. I’m not sure how many people average on each list, but here’s a link to a recent one from 2003, which is 97 pages long:

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/files/pdf/Queens-List-2003.pdf

None of this, incidentally, has anything at all to do with how things are done in Oblivion. The names of Daedra Count and Daedra Prince et cetera were given to the creatures based on men and mers’ assumptions of their relative power and influence. In our world, there are emperor geese and emperor moths, named by someone long ago because they were magnificent looking, not because they reigned over an empire, bossing around their underlings, and arranging invasions and truces.

The titles given to Daedra are much the same to the title given to moths and geese. It’s unwise to infer that because there’s a system of rank in the minds of the people of Mundus that the Daedra do it the same way.

In other words, one shouldn’t assume that Sheogorath routinely honors the daedra he commands with honorifics based on their “good” deeds, raising a Daedra Lord up to the level of Daedra Count.