Pilaf
We all have personal theories about Wulf and his connection to Talos. Anyone else here believe he really was an avatar of the old Emperor, or just a ghost of an old legionaire?
vaanic~one
I definitely Believe that Wulf was an Avatar of Talos….
Aki
Since the oracle of the Imperial Cult said he was, I’d wager that was Talos/Tiber.
Solin
If Arcrutian Heresy was there at the Songs of King Wulfharth, why not the end?
Azura’s Star
I’m rather leery about trusting either of those documents, but it would be some nice poetic justice, wouldn’t it?
Regardless, Wulf clearly is an avatar of Talos. Look up his script in the CS if you have any doubts; it says so right there.
philly2bits
How is it possible that it was septiums avatar? He was just a normal mortal, what happened to him that he could become an adre or other entity?
Arynel
Why are you so sure he was just a normal mortal?
philly2bits
There is nothing in the lore about him being anything but mortal.
Allerleirauh
You’re mistaken about that. Look again.
In any case, many mortals have become immortal. Arkay comes to mind.
Eralion
Though the accuracy of that book is debatable. I still think Arkay is the Mortals’ God, however.
Selbeth_The_Winged_One
Most people believe he is, but I’m a little schepticle about perfectly normal seeming people who show no signs of divine power at all who are said to be gods, and personaly I think it’s wise for anyone to be.
zingar
Maybe there is not much of a difference between being a god and a mortal in this fantasy world.
proweler
Considering myths are riddled whit the notion that we are the descendants of the gods and seemingly everything reincarnates what ever difference there is, is going to be purely arbitrarily.
Selbeth_The_Winged_One
Maybe there is not much of a difference between being a god and a mortal in this fantasy world.
Well there doesn’t seem to be much difference between Aedra and mortals, both can be killed, the only realy difference there seems to be is Aedra are more powerful, though come to think of it I find it quite odd that Aedra who can be killed are the dieties that represent stasis while it is Daedra who cannot be killed who represent change, you would have thought that as dying is a form of change it would be those who represent change who can die and the true immortals would be those who represent stasis as stasis is a lack of change and to not die is also al ack of change, orm aybe I’m just crazy.
RamDeth
He was an avatar of Talos. After he does his job, he disappears. I believe Wulf was Talos on the human plane.
Nigedo
The problem here is in determining the truth about the person of Tiber Septim.
The official line (taken by Imperial pundits) is that Septim was mortal, but pre-destined and endowed with supernatural ability. They lead us to suppose that his apotheosis was a natural ascension to his pre-appointed position as a divine.
But alternative readings about Septim do exist, and the Arcturian Heresy contains a vitally important critique of the received history. It suggests that the entity to whom history ascribes the successes of “Tiber Septim’s” reign was no mortal at all, but a powerful, immortal figure with an interest in manipulating the affairs of mortals through a human front man.
Just as these two figures, the mortal would-be-emperor and his immortal cohort, were indistinguishable at the time they carved out an empire, so they continue to be confused as a single entity in veneration.
Azura’s Star
Well, I believe the CS script says “Aspect of Tiber Septim,” which might be an argument against the notion that Tiber Septim himself was a mundane mortal, entirely independent from the god Talos. On the other hand, the Construction Set isn’t the most official source of lore, I suppose.
Nu-Hatta of the Sphynxmoth Inquiry Tree also seems to imply that they are a single entity, and that the divinity of Talos/Tiber Septim did, indeed, stem from his deeds as a mortal. Specifically, it implies that he followed the fourth Walking Way to attain CHIM.
I’m inclined to disbelieve Arcurian Heresy, and take the Imperial line as more or less the truth (although, of course, cast in the best possible light).
proweler
Going to work on that thought.
Acording to The Five Songs of King Wulfheart, he was elected to be the King of the Nords. He dieth but Shor recreated him – he recreated his own aspect?. Then comes Red Mountain, he is slain again and his ashes blown up.
Acording to The Arcturian Herasy, his now disintegrated body his blown to Skyrim again and starts to take form again. He is then summoned by Azura – as the Underking – to fight the Akaviri invasion. He then visists the Grey Beards and dies again beeing blasted to ashes telling him he’ll be betrayed again.
So far it’s Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor,
Then Hjalti Early-Beard apears he is aided by a storm – probebly Wulfheart, he was a storm before – and become Talos Storm Crown. Then aided by Cuhlecain and Wulfheart they take over the Colovian estates on Wulfhearts advice. Hjalti murder Cuhlecain. Zurin Arctus, the Grand Battlemage (not the Underking), then crowns Hjalti as Tiber Septim.
Hjalti gets bored and sends Ysmir to the North
Ysmir, mindful that it might seem as if Tiber Septim is in two places at once, works behind the scenes. This period of levelheaded statesmanship and diplomacy, this sudden silence, heretofore unknown in the roaring tales of Talosian conquest, are explained away later.
Ysmir wants wants to take over Morrowind – he still has a grudge. Ysmir then leaves whit Armistace – here he thinks he was betrayed. Hjalti has little chance of taking over Morrowind untill the Numidium comes around. He gets back to Ysmir and says he was right and they end up together again.
The Numidium needs a powersource and Ysmir is set up. Zurin Arctus traps his soul – this time Ysmir is truely betrayed. Ysmir was an aspect of Lorkhan after all so it can power the Numidium. The Numidium is then destroyed by Zurin Arctus.
Daggerfall happens, Ysmir gets his heart back and shows up whit as Pelagius advisor.
So far: Hjalti is Tiber.
How did Zurin Arctus become the Underking? Another aspect of Lorkhan?
And why did MK say this? It’s suported by Nu-Hatta though.
1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
NTiber Septim: “The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora.”
Selbeth_The_Winged_One
I doubt he is even an avatar of Talos, personaly I think he is just a crazy person who wants a bit of publicity, and I don’t think Tiber Septim is a god eithe,r mortals can never become gods in my oppinion, it’s just not meant to happen and can’t happen, the closest they can do is become false gods liek the Tribunal, of ocurse I’m not even sure if I would call the Aedra gods, in my oppinion for an entity to classify as a god it needs to be unkillable, in which case the only true gods in The Elder Scrolls are the Daedra.
TSBasilisk
If the Daedra cannot be killed…then why do they fear the Darkness? How can they be bound to a physical manifestation against their will? Why is it that they fear one another enough to have never done more than bicker?
The Daedra, though not bound to the laws of Mundus, are still mortal because they are bound in the universe which manifested around those laws. Without Mundus, they are shapeless beings with no purpose or thought. The Daedra are not gods; they are elementals, just are the Aedra. If the Aedra were once like the Daedra, and are now mortal, does that not mean that the Daedra could also become mortal? If so, they are not gods.
The truth is that the only real gods are those who were once mortals. Mundus was created to transcend the limitations of the et’Ada, who were elementals without purpose or thought beyond their own momentary desires. The Daedra still suffer from these limitations, only able to further their own natures and cravings. Mundus, in exchange, has limits of mortality, but the nature can be freed to pursue many natures, and, most importantly, to grow. When a mortal finds CHIM, they balance out the two opposing parts of their own existence, the Sithis and Anu, and form themselves into a self-sustaining, immortal soul. They are weaker than the Daedra, weaker than the Aedra, but immortal for that when Sithis finally overwhelms the order which has arisen and the Daedra and Aedra both return to their original nature, parts of Sithis, the eternal Void, those who have found CHIM will remain intact, immune to Sithis.
Azura’s Star
Upon rereading the Heresy once again, and realizing a certain mistake in my thinking, I can accept both “Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor” and “Hjalti is Tiber.” In fact, I might add “Hjalti is Tiber is Talos is aspect of Shor.” My argument would be with the notion, often derived from the Heresy, that Tiber Septim himself was nothing but an exceptionally cunning mortal who happened to have the Underking on his side. I believe that they were both aspects of Lorkhan, as, I must conclude, was Zurin Arctus. This would fit in well with your notion that the aspects of Lorkhan are gradually reuniting.
I must conclude that somehow, over the course of the Numidium effect, the three were reunited to form a single divine whole, and that the Ninth Divine is the sum of the attempts at CHIM of three of Lorkhan’s aspects.
I suppose that this is not directly at odds with anything to be found in the Heresy. I had thought (incorrectly) that the Heresy denied that Tiber Septim was Talos, which is in direct contradiction of Nu-Hatta’s statements. It says no such thing, so I rescind my earlier comment.
Anyway…that was confusing.
Thepal
@TSBasilisk
Et’Ada can “disapear”, they constantly did this before Arkay showed them how to avoid beeing destroyed. Soon after the Aurbis became split in Void and Magic, wouldn’t it be logical to assume that this is the result of their ability to stay in excistance?
Vhek seems to suggest it. He also sugest that in the grey one can lose one’s identity. I think this is what the Daedra fear.
Here were the etada with their magic and their voids and everything in between and he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity.
“Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor” and “Hjalti is Tiber.” In fact, I might add “Hjalti is Tiber is Talos is aspect of Shor.” (…)
I must conclude that somehow, over the course of the Numidium effect, the three were reunited to form a single divine whole, and that the Ninth Divine is the sum of the attempts at CHIM of three of Lorkhan’s aspects.
A Breton and Nord and an Altmer. Seems like Lorkhan is not just rebuilding himselves, he is balancing himselves aswell. It seems he is still trying to achive CHIM. Although that might just be a coincidental apearing.
Luagar2
If the Daedra cannot be killed…then why do they fear the Darkness? How can they be bound to a physical manifestation against their will? Why is it that they fear one another enough to have never done more than bicker?
If you call upon destruction, or deciet how can it refuse. If they refused they would be refusing to fullfill their nature. If one sets fire to a tree and it doesn’t burn would it not be the same as Dagon neglecting himself, they cannot resist because their wills are slaves to their sphere’s, this is not to say that they have no wills because their fear is proof that they do. What else is a mortal to call the seemingly immortal manifestion of a concept with a will of its own if not a god.
The Daedra, though not bound to the laws of Mundus, are still mortal because they are bound in the universe which manifested around those laws. Without Mundus, they are shapeless beings with no purpose or thought. The Daedra are not gods; they are elementals, just are the Aedra. If the Aedra were once like the Daedra, and are now mortal, does that not mean that the Daedra could also become mortal? If so, they are not gods.
Being shapeless without thought is still being…
Also, if this is true…
The creation of Mundus is the beginning of the Psijic Endeavor, the quest to purify the chaotic Padomay by bringing it into balance with the Anu. When the Padomay is harnessed and becomes one with the Anu, a new and greater Anu is formed, which incorporates the old Stasis and Change. However, Lorkhan is said to have purposefully failed the Endeavor. How? He did not balance the forces, he separated them. When his Heart bound the Aedra to Mundus permanently, much of the Padomay was forced from them, leaving the pure forms we know today, the Anu. Another event such as this can be seen in the creation of Malacath, when the god Trinimac was destroyed, and his Padomay reformed into Malacath.
But the Padomay did not remain dormant. It formed itself into Daedric Princes, counterparts to their creators. When considered objectively, possible relationships of the Daedra to the Aedra can be seen.
then how could the daedra have once been like the aedra… perhaps its the death of the aedra in particular that would cause the daedra’s death rather than Mundus’ in general…
The truth is that the only real gods are those who were once mortals. Mundus was created to transcend the limitations of the et’Ada, who were elementals without purpose or thought beyond their own momentary desires. The Daedra still suffer from these limitations, only able to further their own natures and cravings. Mundus, in exchange, has limits of mortality, but the nature can be freed to pursue many natures, and, most importantly, to grow. When a mortal finds CHIM, they balance out the two opposing parts of their own existence, the Sithis and Anu, and form themselves into a self-sustaining, immortal soul. They are weaker than the Daedra, weaker than the Aedra, but immortal for that when Sithis finally overwhelms the order which has arisen and the Daedra and Aedra both return to their original nature, parts of Sithis, the eternal Void, those who have found CHIM will remain intact, immune to Sithis.
That I agree with, I also happen to see them as the only beings worthy of worship by those of Nirn…
Helton
This is all very intriguing. Would the aspects of Lorkhan be aware of what they are? Or would they just share similar qualities? Is he aware that he is bringing himself together to achieve his ancient goal, or is it just happening on it’s own?
Finally, are we suggesting that the one(many) ‘true god(s)’ is in fact the Deceiver, the Trickster? Or did his brother’s just not understand the gift he gave them?
proweler
Lorkhan isn’t Akatosh if that is what you are saying and he understood Lorkhans “gift” just fine. To him and the first Mer of Nirn, it was something bad, something that pulled them away from what they were and weakened them. The first Man of Nirn rejoiced and embraced their weakness, for in their eyes they were truly free now.
Helton
No, I was referring to other people putting forth that the “true gods” deserving of worship were the mortals who had become gods. I may be forgetting someone, but all of those people seem to be possible aspects of Lorkhan.
Thus, are we saying the only truly divine entity is in fact the Great Trickster?
I dunno, Tiber, the Underking, etc. are one of the few areas of the lore I know almost nothing about, so it’s all rather fresh to me. I’d never considered Lorkhan was still a player, in any sense.
featherbrain
On the Enantiomorph, I found this interesting Wiki reference:
Chirality (Greek handedness, derived from the word stem χειρ~, ch[e]ir~ – hand~) is an asymmetry property important in several branches of science. An object or a system is called chiral if it differs from its mirror image. Such objects then come in two forms, which are mirror images of each other, and these pairs of mirror image objects are called enantiomorphs (Greek opposite forms) or, when referring to molecules, enantiomers. A non-chiral object is called achiral (sometimes also amphichiral).
There’s also some possible resonance with enantiodromia, a term borrowed by Jung from Heraclitus: “Old Heraclitus, who was indeed a very great sage, discovered the most marvelous of all psychological laws: the regulative function of opposites. He called it ENANTIODROMIA, a running contrariwise, by which he meant that sooner or later everything runs into its opposite.” (Jung, Two Essays)
This is a particularly pertinent aphorism by Heraclitus that illustrates the concept in almost Vehk-like language (more discussion http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/j6conclusion.html):
Mortals are immortals and immortals are mortals, the one living the others’ death and dying the others’ life.
While we’re at it, Yeats also adapted this idea in his notion of the http://www.yeatsvision.com/Daimon.html – “to me all things are made of the conflict of two states of consciousness, beings or persons which die each other’s life, live each other’s death” – as in this poem:
What marks upon the yielding clay? Two marks
Made by my feet, two by my daimon’s feet
But all confused because my marks and his
Are on the selfsame spot, his toes
Where my heels fell, for he and I
Pausing a moment in our headlong flight
Face opposite ways, my future being his past.
Don’t know if that’s useful, but I found it an interesting way of thinking about Tiber/Zurin, and the other confusions.
A few more from the http://www.tesc.edu/~rprice/heraclitus.htm of Heraclitus, then:
(59) Couples are things whole and things not whole, what is drawn together and what is drawn asunder, the harmonious and the discordant.
(69) The way up and the way down is one and the same. (or: “Upward, downward, the way is one and the same.”)
(81) We step and do not step into the same rivers; we are and are not.
(83) It rests by changing. (or: “Changing, it finds rest.”)
Plato summarising Heraclitus (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/Heraclitus.html):
Reality is both many and one, and is kept together by Hate and Love. For, say the more severe Muses, “in its division it is always being brought together” while the softer Muses relaxed the requirement that this should always be so, and said that the All was alternately one and at peace through the power of Aphrodite, and many and at war with itself because of something they called Strife.
I like that phrase “in its division it is always being brought together” as a possible description of Lorkhan and prowelers idea of “bringing himselves together.” There’s also some mileage perhaps in Heraclitus’ notion of change as the “upward and downward path” here:
All things are passing, both human and divine, upwards and downwards by exchanges.
But that’s enough non-TES philosophy for one day, methinks.
proweler
Not enhough I would say, you missed one:
(43) Homer was wrong in saying: “Would that strife might perish from among gods and humans!” He did not see that he was praying for the destruction of the universe; for, if his prayer were heard, all things would pass away. . . .
Found another one. Not really on topic but it’s about the Daedra.
(61) To God all things are fair and good and right, but people hold some things wrong and some right.
Astarsis
This is insane, but make sense
Shezar=Shor=Lorkhan, and used to walk among men during the Alesian revolt
Which is quite weird considering that Lorkhan was… err … dismantled long before Shezar time
We already know Tiber was just another incarnation of the eternal champion
I like the idea of Lorkhan and the eternal champion being one and the same
Also notice WHERE we met wulf, pretty damn close to the source of power (the hearth)
So the heir we must find *could be* another emanation/incarnation of Lorkhan ?
Then the question remaining is who will the player be ?
I don’t suscribe to the hypothesis that all player character are the emanation of the eternal hero, because TES4 and TES3 events are too close together. And clearly Morrowind pc is Nerevar incarnation, and way too clearly tagged to be the eternal champion, and too tied to Daedra (Strongest of the Pandomai) to be an Aedra
Is there a single Eternal champion or Many ? could some of them be incarnated Aedra ?
Reman is claimed to be Aktosh.
Shezar is clearly identified to Shor and Lorkhan
Arkay is supposed to have been a librarian/bookshop owner
What about the rest of them ?
In some books the nords say Tiber=Talos=Ysmir and came from Altmora and is not Wulfgarth
Some other book claim Wulfgarth = Ysmir = Underking and is not Talos
Astarsis
Well there doesn’t seem to be much difference between Aedra and mortals, both can be killed, the only realy difference there seems to be is Aedra are more powerful, though come to think of it I find it quite odd that Aedra who can be killed are the dieties that represent stasis while it is Daedra who cannot be killed who represent change, you would have thought that as dying is a form of change it would be those who represent change who can die and the true immortals would be those who represent stasis as stasis is a lack of change and to not die is also al ack of change, orm aybe I’m just crazy.
Daedra can be killed, but this only banish them to Oblivion where they reform.
I suspect Aedra work differently, slower, because of the constraints of the Mundus, and can incarnate or mantle (whatever that is) themselves. The two process are different. I think it’s linked to the Towers.
I think incarnation mean being reborn as mortal with all that goes with it
While mantling is just an emanation. Wulf could have been such an emanation. I suspect this is both stronger (more elemental) but also more fragile (less physical)
And in all that mess, who is the King of Worms and why is he so old and have such a weird name ? Is he from Yokuda ?
Astarsis
A big key is here
Nerevarine: “Pantheon by incarnation, as all alive now know.”
and here
Almalexia: “Hnnnh. Kyne and Mara and Dibella and sixteen Daedric elements: all contributed to the snake-faced queen when she touched the drum. Their sum? A Beauty Cala as none have seen. Cala! Wetness of Kingdom!”
and finally there
Tiber Septim: “The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora.”
The manting is linked to the tower and the process of creation
It seems to be temporary
Manted-avatar have a tendency of being blown to ashes and appearing out of thin air…
Real avatar (incarnated) walk the earth in a normal fashion
And look at that crazy revelation
King of Worms: “The Jills of Aka-tosh have mended this numidition. Mannimarco remains as he was: the high priest of maggots.
You guys catch what numidition is ?
Anyone starting to figure out how old King of Worms really is ? as well as his friendship with Aka-Tosh/Arkay
Seems to mean Akatosh is all 9 of them, the whole wheel.
proweler
The Direnni glyphs have claimed another. Astarsis has sunk into madness.
This thread was started on September 3rd 2005, and concerns the potential divinity of Wulf, a legionnaire that gives you a special coin when you venture into Red Mountain during the conclusion of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, as well as the general nature of divinity in the Elder Scrolls.
Some posts have been trimmed from this transcript because they did not relate to the topic. A full archive can be found here.