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Bethesda Game Studios Forums _ Elder Scrolls Lore _ Wulf = Talos?

Posted by: Pilaf Sep 3 2005, 05:53 PM

We all have personal theories about Wulf and his connection to Talos. Anyone else here believe he really was an avatar of the old Emperor, or just a ghost of an old legionaire?

Posted by: vaanic~one Sep 3 2005, 05:59 PM

QUOTE(Pilaf @ Sep 3 2005, 12:53 PM)
We all have personal theories about Wulf and his connection to Talos. Anyone else here believe he really was an avatar of the old Emperor, or just a ghost of an old legionaire?
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I definitely Believe that Wulf was an Avatar of Talos....

Posted by: Aki Sep 3 2005, 08:11 PM

Since the oracle of the Imperial Cult said he was, I'd wager that was Talos/Tiber.

Posted by: Solin Sep 3 2005, 08:20 PM

If http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml was there at the http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/wulfharthsongs.shtml, why not the end?

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 4 2005, 05:39 AM

I'm rather leery about trusting either of those documents, but it would be some nice poetic justice, wouldn't it?

Regardless, Wulf clearly is an avatar of Talos. Look up his script in the CS if you have any doubts; it says so right there.

Posted by: philly2bits Sep 4 2005, 07:37 AM

How is it possible that it was septiums avatar? He was just a normal mortal, what happened to him that he could become an adre or other entity?

Posted by: Arynel Sep 4 2005, 07:40 AM

QUOTE(philly2bits @ Sep 4 2005, 12:37 AM)
How is it possible that it was septiums avatar? He was just a normal mortal, what happened to him that he could become an adre or other entity?
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Why are you so sure he was just a normal mortal?

Posted by: philly2bits Sep 4 2005, 07:44 AM

There is nothing in the lore about him being anything but mortal.

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 4 2005, 08:18 AM

QUOTE(philly2bits @ Sep 4 2005, 01:44 AM)
There is nothing in the lore about him being anything but mortal.
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You're mistaken about that. Look again.

In any case, many mortals have become immortal. Arkay comes to mind.

Posted by: Eralion Sethos Sep 4 2005, 08:58 AM

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Sep 4 2005, 12:18 AM)
You're mistaken about that. Look again.

In any case, many mortals have become immortal. Arkay comes to mind.
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Though the accuracy of that book is debatable. I still think Arkay is the Mortals' God, however.

Posted by: Selbeth_The_Winged_One Sep 4 2005, 01:14 PM

Most people believe he is, but I'm a little schepticle about perfectly normal seeming people who show no signs of divine power at all who are said to be gods, and personaly I think it's wise for anyone to be.

Posted by: zingar baltus Sep 4 2005, 04:31 PM

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 01:14 PM)
Most people believe he is, but I'm a little schepticle about perfectly normal seeming people who show no signs of divine power at all who are said to be gods, and personaly I think it's wise for anyone to be.
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Maybe there is not much of a difference between being a god and a mortal in this fantasy world.

Posted by: proweler Sep 4 2005, 04:41 PM

Considering myths are riddled whit the notion that we are the descendants of the gods and seemingly everything reincarnates what ever difference there is, is going to be purely arbitrarily.

http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml

QUOTE
Well, I tried to help. Here's Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree and his somewhat edited response:
(...)
MK: Below are the proposed categories by which to measure these divinities. I think most of them lead falsely to a silly DnD number-crunching mechanism of Who’s Cooler, so I’ll ignore them for now. After all, gods are beyond our ken, even though it is us who are their true parents.

- Origin as a mortal
- Divine Acquisition
- Divine Level (standing against the Aedra & daedra & other god-heroes)
- Lifespan

Posted by: Selbeth_The_Winged_One Sep 4 2005, 08:46 PM

QUOTE(zingar baltus @ Sep 4 2005, 11:31 PM)
Maybe there is not much of a difference between being a god and a mortal in this fantasy world.
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Well there doesn't seem to be much difference between Aedra and mortals, both can be killed, the only realy difference there seems to be is Aedra are more powerful, though come to think of it I find it quite odd that Aedra who can be killed are the dieties that represent stasis while it is Daedra who cannot be killed who represent change, you would have thought that as dying is a form of change it would be those who represent change who can die and the true immortals would be those who represent stasis as stasis is a lack of change and to not die is also al ack of change, orm aybe I'm just crazy.

Posted by: RamDeth Sep 4 2005, 09:29 PM

QUOTE(Pilaf @ Sep 3 2005, 11:53 AM)
We all have personal theories about Wulf and his connection to Talos. Anyone else here believe he really was an avatar of the old Emperor, or just a ghost of an old legionaire?
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He was an avatar of Talos. After he does his job, he disappears. I believe Wulf was Talos on the human plane.

Posted by: RamDeth Sep 4 2005, 09:30 PM

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 02:46 PM)
Well there doesn't seem to be much difference between Aedra and mortals, both can be killed, the only realy difference there seems to be is Aedra are more powerful, though come to think of it I find it quite odd that Aedra who can be killed are the dieties that represent stasis while it is Daedra who cannot be killed who represent change, you would have thought that as dying is a form of change it would be those who represent change who can die and the true immortals would be those who represent stasis as stasis is a lack of change and to not die is also al ack of change, orm aybe I'm just crazy.
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No that makes sense to me. Oh, well.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 4 2005, 09:34 PM

The problem here is in determining the truth about the person of Tiber Septim.

The official line (taken by Imperial pundits) is that Septim was mortal, but pre-destined and endowed with supernatural ability. They lead us to suppose that his apotheosis was a natural ascension to his pre-appointed position as a divine.

But alternative readings about Septim do exist, and the Arcturian Heresy contains a vitally important critique of the received history. It suggests that the entity to whom history ascribes the successes of "Tiber Septim's" reign was no mortal at all, but a powerful, immortal figure with an interest in manipulating the affairs of mortals through a human front man.

Just as these two figures, the mortal would-be-emperor and his immortal cohort, were indistinguishable at the time they carved out an empire, so they continue to be confused as a single entity in veneration.

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 4 2005, 09:57 PM

Well, I believe the CS script says "Aspect of Tiber Septim," which might be an argument against the notion that Tiber Septim himself was a mundane mortal, entirely independent from the god Talos. On the other hand, the Construction Set isn't the most official source of lore, I suppose.

http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml also seems to imply that they are a single entity, and that the divinity of Talos/Tiber Septim did, indeed, stem from his deeds as a mortal. Specifically, it implies that he followed the fourth Walking Way to attain CHIM.

I'm inclined to disbelieve http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml, and take the Imperial line as more or less the truth (although, of course, cast in the best possible light).

Posted by: proweler Sep 4 2005, 10:35 PM

Going to work on that thought.

Acording to The Five Songs of King Wulfheart, he was elected to be the King of the Nords. He dieth but Shor recreated him - he recreated his own aspect?. Then comes Red Mountain, he is slain again and his ashes blown up.

Acording to The Arcturian Herasy, his now disintegrated body his blown to Skyrim again and starts to take form again. He is then summoned by Azura - as the Underking - to fight the Akaviri invasion. He then visists the Grey Beards and dies again beeing blasted to ashes telling him he'll be betrayed again.

So far it's Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor,

Then Hjalti Early-Beard apears he is aided by a storm - probebly Wulfheart, he was a storm before - and become Talos Storm Crown. Then aided by Cuhlecain and Wulfheart they take over the Colovian estates on Wulfhearts advice. Hjalti murder Cuhlecain. Zurin Arctus, the Grand Battlemage (not the Underking), then crowns Hjalti as Tiber Septim.

Hjalti gets bored and sends Ysmir to the North

QUOTE
Ysmir, mindful that it might seem as if Tiber Septim is in two places at once, works behind the scenes. This period of levelheaded statesmanship and diplomacy, this sudden silence, heretofore unknown in the roaring tales of Talosian conquest, are explained away later.


Ysmir wants wants to take over Morrowind - he still has a grudge. Ysmir then leaves whit Armistace - here he thinks he was betrayed. Hjalti has little chance of taking over Morrowind untill the Numidium comes around. He gets back to Ysmir and says he was right and they end up together again.

The Numidium needs a powersource and Ysmir is set up. Zurin Arctus traps his soul - this time Ysmir is truely betrayed. Ysmir was an aspect of Lorkhan after all so it can power the Numidium. The Numidium is then destroyed by Zurin Arctus.

Daggerfall happens, Ysmir gets his heart back and shows up whit as Pelagius advisor.

So far: Hjalti is Tiber.

How did Zurin Arctus become the Underking? Another aspect of Lorkhan?

And why did http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number;=1566634&page;=&view;=&sb;=5&o;=&fpart;=2&vc;=1 say this? It's suported by Nu-Hatta though.
QUOTE(Vehk @ Old Forums)
1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N


QUOTE(Nu-Hatta)
Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."


They are clear reference to Vheks walking ways. I'd give the Herasy some merit. I quite like the idea that Lorkhan is pulling himselves together.

Posted by: Chazemataz Sep 5 2005, 12:43 AM

Again, ATTACK HIM!!!!!!! When you cream that old fart's a$$ into the ground, see if he is a 'worthy' god. The TRUE GODS OF THE MORROWIND VIDEO GAME ARE THE DAEDRA!!!!

After you beat him up, then proceed to your local Daedric shrine.

"Most powerful divine god-hero of all time" my hiney!

Also, if you investigate his corpse, you will see he was also a moon sugar addict! Goodness gracious what a screwed up ficticious religion!

Posted by: Stargazey Sep 5 2005, 01:10 AM

QUOTE(Chazemataz @ Sep 4 2005, 07:43 PM)
Again, ATTACK HIM!!!!!!!  When you cream that old fart's a$$ into the ground, see if he is a 'worthy' god.  The TRUE GODS OF THE MORROWIND VIDEO GAME ARE THE DAEDRA!!!! 

After you beat him up, then proceed to your local Daedric shrine.

  "Most powerful divine god-hero of all time" my hiney!

Also, if you investigate his corpse, you will see he was also a moon sugar addict!  Goodness gracious what a screwed up ficticious religion!
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Um, as it was said Wulf is just an avatar of Talos. Not Talos himself.

Posted by: Selbeth_The_Winged_One Sep 5 2005, 01:47 AM

QUOTE(Stargazey @ Sep 5 2005, 08:10 AM)
Um, as it was said Wulf is just an avatar of Talos. Not Talos himself.
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I doubt he is even an avatar of Talos, personaly I think he is just a crazy person who wants a bit of publicity, and I don't think Tiber Septim is a god eithe,r mortals can never become gods in my oppinion, it's just not meant to happen and can't happen, the closest they can do is become false gods liek the Tribunal, of ocurse I'm not even sure if I would call the Aedra gods, in my oppinion for an entity to classify as a god it needs to be unkillable, in which case the only true gods in The Elder Scrolls are the Daedra.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 5 2005, 01:51 AM

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 08:47 PM)
I doubt he is even an avatar of Talos, personaly I think he is just a crazy person who wants a bit of publicity, and I don't think Tiber Septim is a god eithe,r mortals can never become gods in my oppinion, it's just not meant to happen and can't happen, the closest they can do is become false gods liek the Tribunal, of ocurse I'm not even sure if I would call the Aedra gods, in my oppinion for an entity to classify as a god it needs to be unkillable, in which case the only true gods in The Elder Scrolls are the Daedra.
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Yep, everyone else is wrong, everyone at TIL, the Prophet, and Stargazey. You are totally right.

Posted by: TSBasilisk Sep 5 2005, 02:06 AM

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 08:47 PM)
I doubt he is even an avatar of Talos, personaly I think he is just a crazy person who wants a bit of publicity, and I don't think Tiber Septim is a god eithe,r mortals can never become gods in my oppinion, it's just not meant to happen and can't happen, the closest they can do is become false gods liek the Tribunal, of ocurse I'm not even sure if I would call the Aedra gods, in my oppinion for an entity to classify as a god it needs to be unkillable, in which case the only true gods in The Elder Scrolls are the Daedra.
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If the Daedra cannot be killed...then why do they fear the Darkness? How can they be bound to a physical manifestation against their will? Why is it that they fear one another enough to have never done more than bicker?

The Daedra, though not bound to the laws of Mundus, are still mortal because they are bound in the universe which manifested around those laws. Without Mundus, they are shapeless beings with no purpose or thought. The Daedra are not gods; they are elementals, just are the Aedra. If the Aedra were once like the Daedra, and are now mortal, does that not mean that the Daedra could also become mortal? If so, they are not gods.

The truth is that the only real gods are those who were once mortals. Mundus was created to transcend the limitations of the et'Ada, who were elementals without purpose or thought beyond their own momentary desires. The Daedra still suffer from these limitations, only able to further their own natures and cravings. Mundus, in exchange, has limits of mortality, but the nature can be freed to pursue many natures, and, most importantly, to grow. When a mortal finds CHIM, they balance out the two opposing parts of their own existence, the Sithis and Anu, and form themselves into a self-sustaining, immortal soul. They are weaker than the Daedra, weaker than the Aedra, but immortal for that when Sithis finally overwhelms the order which has arisen and the Daedra and Aedra both return to their original nature, parts of Sithis, the eternal Void, those who have found CHIM will remain intact, immune to Sithis.

Posted by: Selbeth_The_Winged_One Sep 5 2005, 02:41 AM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Sep 5 2005, 08:51 AM)
Yep, everyone else is wrong, everyone at TIL, the Prophet, and Stargazey. You are totally right.
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Not necessarily, the prophit could have been decieved, or it could have been just part of some scheme to bering Wulf publicity, or maybe Lord S was playing with the prophits mind, and the people at the Imperiel Library are like me just speculating based on their own oppinions and what we do know, so either could be wrong, the truth is, only Bethesda knows who Wulf REALLY is because they made the game and they get to decide, and since they aren't likely to give us any definate answers we are all left here to just speculate and hold to our opions, which we are all doing right now.

Posted by: TSBasilisk Sep 5 2005, 04:25 AM

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 09:41 PM)
Not necessarily, the prophit could have been decieved, or it could have been just part of some scheme to bering Wulf publicity, or maybe Lord S was playing with the prophits mind, and the people at the Imperiel Library are like me just speculating based on their own oppinions and what we do know, so either could be wrong, the truth is, only Bethesda knows who Wulf REALLY is because they made the game and they get to decide, and since they aren't likely to give us any definate answers we are all left here to just speculate and hold to our opions, which we are all doing right now.
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Then tell me how the Nerevarine came to possess the Luck of the Emperor when he spoke with Wulf? What the oracle proclaimed is deemed canon. The encounter with Wulf is similar to the encounters with the avatars of Mara and Zenithar. Though there is no proof, there is no explanation for how they obtained the powerful items blessed with the powers of the gos who they are deemed as avatars of. If the spirits of mortals are not able to become more than ghosts, how can travelers obtain blessings from shrines to hero-gods and saints?

If you wish to challenge our beliefs, answer the questions which are more than sarcasm. Will you address this post I have made, and the one before it, or once again act as if they have no validity?

Posted by: Luagar2 Sep 5 2005, 04:50 AM

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 08:41 PM)
Not necessarily, the prophit could have been decieved, or it could have been just part of some scheme to bering Wulf publicity, or maybe Lord S was playing with the prophits mind, and the people at the Imperiel Library are like me just speculating based on their own oppinions and what we do know, so either could be wrong, the truth is, only Bethesda knows who Wulf REALLY is because they made the game and they get to decide, and since they aren't likely to give us any definate answers we are all left here to just speculate and hold to our opions, which we are all doing right now.
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If you want proof, open up the TESCS and check out his script. It may not be conventional lore, but it is valid nonetheless...

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 5 2005, 05:27 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 4 2005, 02:35 PM)
[snip]
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Upon rereading the Heresy once again, and realizing a certain mistake in my thinking, I can accept both "Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor" and "Hjalti is Tiber." In fact, I might add "Hjalti is Tiber is Talos is aspect of Shor." My argument would be with the notion, often derived from the Heresy, that Tiber Septim himself was nothing but an exceptionally cunning mortal who happened to have the Underking on his side. I believe that they were both aspects of Lorkhan, as, I must conclude, was Zurin Arctus. This would fit in well with your notion that the aspects of Lorkhan are gradually reuniting.

I must conclude that somehow, over the course of the Numidium effect, the three were reunited to form a single divine whole, and that the Ninth Divine is the sum of the attempts at CHIM of three of Lorkhan's aspects.

I suppose that this is not directly at odds with anything to be found in the Heresy. I had thought (incorrectly) that the Heresy denied that Tiber Septim was Talos, which is in direct contradiction of Nu-Hatta's statements. It says no such thing, so I rescind my earlier comment.

Anyway...that was confusing.

Posted by: Thepal Sep 5 2005, 07:37 AM

What we know:

1. Wulf looks like the image of Tiber Septim engraved on the lucky coin.
2. The Imperial Cult Oracle thinks you've been visited by Tiber Septim
3. Wulf's scripts has the comment "aspect of Tiber Septim named 'wulf' gives PC lucky coin"


I'd say it's pretty obvious

Posted by: Arynel Sep 5 2005, 05:17 PM

Concerning Aedra being able to die, from the Monomyth.

QUOTE
Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story -- that of their own death. For some this was an artistic transfiguration into the concrete, non-magical substance of the world. For others, this was a war in which all were slain, their bodies becoming the substance of the world. For yet others, this was a romantic marriage and parenthood, with the parent spirits naturally having to die and give way to the succeeding mortal races.

The agent of this communal decision was Lorkhan, whom most early myths vilify as a trickster or deceiver. More sympathetic versions of this story point out Lorkhan as being the reason the mortal plane exists at all.

The magical beings created the races of the mortal Aurbis in their own image, either consciously as artists and craftsmen, or as the fecund rotting matter out of which the mortals sprung forth, or in a variety of other analogical senses.

The magical beings, then, having died, became the et'Ada. The et'Ada are the things perceived and revered by the mortals as gods, spirits, or geniuses of Aurbis. Through their deaths, these magical beings separated themselves in nature from the other magical beings of the Unnatural realms.

Posted by: proweler Sep 6 2005, 03:30 PM

TSBasilisk

Et'Ada can "disapear", they constantly did this before Arkay showed them how to avoid beeing destroyed. Soon after the Aurbis became split in Void and Magic, wouldn't it be logical to assume that this is the result of their ability to stay in excistance?


Vhek seems to suggest it. He also sugest that in the grey one can lose one's identity. I think this is what the Daedra fear.

QUOTE(the Tower)
Here were the etada with their magic and their voids and everything in between and he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity.


QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 5 2005, 12:27 AM)
"Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor" and "Hjalti is Tiber."  In fact, I might add "Hjalti is Tiber is Talos is aspect of Shor." 
(...)
I must conclude that somehow, over the course of the Numidium effect, the three were reunited to form a single divine whole, and that the Ninth Divine is the sum of the attempts at CHIM of three of Lorkhan's aspects.
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A Breton and Nord and an Altmer. Seems like Lorkhan is not just rebuilding himselves, he is balancing himselves aswell. It seems he is still trying to achive CHIM. Although that might just be a coincidental apearing.

Posted by: Luagar2 Sep 6 2005, 07:43 PM

QUOTE(TSBasilisk @ Sep 4 2005, 08:06 PM)
If the Daedra cannot be killed...then why do they fear the Darkness? How can they be bound to a physical manifestation against their will? Why is it that they fear one another enough to have never done more than bicker?
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If you call upon destruction, or deciet how can it refuse. If they refused they would be refusing to fullfill their nature. If one sets fire to a tree and it doesn't burn would it not be the same as Dagon neglecting himself, they cannot resist because their wills are slaves to their sphere's, this is not to say that they have no wills because their fear is proof that they do. What else is a mortal to call the seemingly immortal manifestion of a concept with a will of its own if not a god.

QUOTE(TSBasilisk @ Sep 4 2005, 08:06 PM)
The Daedra, though not bound to the laws of Mundus, are still mortal because they are bound in the universe which manifested around those laws.  Without Mundus, they are shapeless beings with no purpose or thought.  The Daedra are not gods; they are elementals, just are the Aedra.  If the Aedra were once like the Daedra, and are now mortal, does that not mean that the Daedra could also become mortal?  If so, they are not gods.
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Being shapeless without thought is still being...
Also, if this is true...
Quote: TSBasilisk
The creation of Mundus is the beginning of the Psijic Endeavor, the quest to purify the chaotic Padomay by bringing it into balance with the Anu. When the Padomay is harnessed and becomes one with the Anu, a new and greater Anu is formed, which incorporates the old Stasis and Change. However, Lorkhan is said to have purposefully failed the Endeavor. How? He did not balance the forces, he separated them. When his Heart bound the Aedra to Mundus permanently, much of the Padomay was forced from them, leaving the pure forms we know today, the Anu. Another event such as this can be seen in the creation of Malacath, when the god Trinimac was destroyed, and his Padomay reformed into Malacath.

But the Padomay did not remain dormant. It formed itself into Daedric Princes, counterparts to their creators. When considered objectively, possible relationships of the Daedra to the Aedra can be seen.


then how could the daedra have once been like the aedra... perhaps its the death of the aedra in particular that would cause the daedra's death rather than Mundus' in general...

QUOTE(TSBasilisk @ Sep 4 2005, 08:06 PM)
The truth is that the only real gods are those who were once mortals.  Mundus was created to transcend the limitations of the et'Ada, who were elementals without purpose or thought beyond their own momentary desires.  The Daedra still suffer from these limitations, only able to further their own natures and cravings.  Mundus, in exchange, has limits of mortality, but the nature can be freed to pursue many natures, and, most importantly, to grow.  When a mortal finds CHIM, they balance out the two opposing parts of their own existence, the Sithis and Anu, and form themselves into a self-sustaining, immortal soul.  They are weaker than the Daedra, weaker than the Aedra, but immortal for that when Sithis finally overwhelms the order which has arisen and the Daedra and Aedra both return to their original nature, parts of Sithis, the eternal Void, those who have found CHIM will remain intact, immune to Sithis.
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That I agree with, I also happen to see them as the only beings worthy of worship by those of Nirn...

Posted by: Nerevar11 Nov 11 2005, 11:37 PM

QUOTE(philly2bits @ Sep 4 2005, 01:37 AM)
How is it possible that it was septiums avatar? He was just a normal mortal, what happened to him that he could become an adre or other entity?
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He is far from normal. He is emporer of the dragon throne, and from what I have seen in other posts, he is in some way connected to lorkhan who is divine.

Edit: And since he is somehow connected to lorkhan, how could it be just a coincidense that he wants u to bring the special coin to the resting place of lorkhans heart.

Posted by: Helton Nov 12 2005, 02:44 AM

This is all very intriguing. Would the aspects of Lorkhan be aware of what they are? Or would they just share similar qualities? Is he aware that he is bringing himself together to achieve his ancient goal, or is it just happening on it's own?

Finally, are we suggesting that the one(many) 'true god(s)' is in fact the Deceiver, the Trickster? Or did his brother's just not understand the gift he gave them?

Posted by: proweler Nov 12 2005, 03:08 AM

Lorkhan isn't Akatosh if that is what you are saying and he understood Lorkhans "gift" just fine. To him and the first Mer of Nirn, it was something bad, something that pulled them away from what they were and weakened them. The first Man of Nirn rejoiced and embraced their weakness, for in their eyes they were truly free now.

Posted by: Helton Nov 12 2005, 04:21 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 11 2005, 08:08 PM)
Lorkhan isn't Akatosh if that is what you are saying and he understood Lorkhans "gift" just fine. To him and the first Mer of Nirn, it was something bad, something that pulled them away from what they were and weakened them. The first Man of Nirn rejoiced and embraced their weakness, for in their eyes they were truly free now.
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No, I was referring to other people putting forth that the "true gods" deserving of worship were the mortals who had become gods. I may be forgetting someone, but all of those people seem to be possible aspects of Lorkhan.

Thus, are we saying the only truly divine entity is in fact the Great Trickster?

I dunno, Tiber, the Underking, etc. are one of the few areas of the lore I know almost nothing about, so it's all rather fresh to me. I'd never considered Lorkhan was still a player, in any sense.

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 12 2005, 04:53 AM

On the Enantiomorph, I found this interesting Wiki reference:

There's also some possible resonance with enantiodromia, a term borrowed by Jung from Heraclitus: "Old Heraclitus, who was indeed a very great sage, discovered the most marvelous of all psychological laws: the regulative function of opposites. He called it ENANTIODROMIA, a running contrariwise, by which he meant that sooner or later everything runs into its opposite." (Jung, Two Essays)

This is a particularly pertinent aphorism by Heraclitus that illustrates the concept in almost Vehk-like language (more discussion http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/j6conclusion.html): While we're at it, Yeats also adapted this idea in his notion of the http://www.yeatsvision.com/Daimon.html - "to me all things are made of the conflict of two states of consciousness, beings or persons which die each other’s life, live each other’s death" - as in this poem:Don't know if that's useful, but I found it an interesting way of thinking about Tiber/Zurin, and the other confusions.

Posted by: B Nov 12 2005, 03:49 PM

That was fascinating, featherbrain.

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 12 2005, 11:03 PM

A few more from the http://www.tesc.edu/~rprice/heraclitus.htm of Heraclitus, then:

Plato summarising Heraclitus (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/Heraclitus.html):I like that phrase "in its division it is always being brought together" as a possible description of Lorkhan and prowelers idea of "bringing himselves together." There's also some mileage perhaps in Heraclitus' notion of change as the "upward and downward path" here: But that's enough non-TES philosophy for one day, methinks.

Posted by: proweler Nov 12 2005, 11:31 PM

Not enhough I would say, you missed one:

(43) Homer was wrong in saying: "Would that strife might perish from among gods and humans!" He did not see that he was praying for the destruction of the universe; for, if his prayer were heard, all things would pass away. . . .

Found another one. Not really on topic but it's about the Daedra.

(61) To God all things are fair and good and right, but people hold some things wrong and some right.

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 13 2005, 12:01 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 12 2005, 10:31 PM)
Found another one. Not really on topic but it's about the Daedra.

(61) To God all things are fair and good and right, but people hold some things wrong and some right.
[snapback]3319725[/snapback]

Heraclitus was obviously Sithis-aligned and "of the Devil's party without knowing it" ...

Posted by: Bloodmoon Nov 13 2005, 01:32 AM

I think Wulf is Talos, after all we are granted with the power: Luck of the Emperor.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 18 2005, 07:20 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 4 2005, 05:35 PM)
And why did http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number;=1566634&page;=&view;=&sb;=5&o;=&fpart;=2&vc;=1 say this? It's suported by Nu-Hatta though.
QUOTE(Vehk @ Old Forums)
1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N


QUOTE(Nu-Hatta)
Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."


They are clear reference to Vheks walking ways. I'd give the Herasy some merit. I quite like the idea that Lorkhan is pulling himselves together.
[snapback]2645392[/snapback]




This is insane, but make sense

Shezar=Shor=Lorkhan, and used to walk among men during the Alesian revolt

Which is quite weird considering that Lorkhan was... err ... dismantled long before Shezar time

We already know Tiber was just another incarnation of the eternal champion

I like the idea of Lorkhan and the eternal champion being one and the same

Also notice WHERE we met wulf, pretty damn close to the source of power (the hearth)

So the heir we must find *could be* another emanation/incarnation of Lorkhan ?

Then the question remaining is who will the player be ?

I don't suscribe to the hypothesis that all player character are the emanation of the eternal hero, because TES4 and TES3 events are too close together. And clearly Morrowind pc is Nerevar incarnation, and way too clearly tagged to be the eternal champion, and too tied to Daedra (Strongest of the Pandomai) to be an Aedra

Is there a single Eternal champion or Many ? could some of them be incarnated Aedra ?

Reman is claimed to be Aktosh.
Shezar is clearly identified to Shor and Lorkhan
Arkay is supposed to have been a librarian/bookshop owner

What about the rest of them ?

In some books the nords say Tiber=Talos=Ysmir and came from Altmora and is not Wulfgarth

Some other book claim Wulfgarth = Ysmir = Underking and is not Talos

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 09:11 PM

Daedra can be killed, but this only banish them to Oblivion where they reform.

I suspect Aedra work differently, slower, because of the constraints of the Mundus, and can incarnate or mantle (whatever that is) themselves. The two process are different. I think it's linked to the Towers.

I think incarnation mean being reborn as mortal with all that goes with it

While mantling is just an emanation. Wulf could have been such an emanation. I suspect this is both stronger (more elemental) but also more fragile (less physical)

And in all that mess, who is the King of Worms and why is he so old and have such a weird name ? Is he from Yokuda ?

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 03:46 PM)
Well there doesn't seem to be much difference between Aedra and mortals, both can be killed, the only realy difference there seems to be is Aedra are more powerful, though come to think of it I find it quite odd that Aedra who can be killed are the dieties that represent stasis while it is Daedra who cannot be killed who represent change, you would have thought that as dying is a form of change it would be those who represent change who can die and the true immortals would be those who represent stasis as stasis is a lack of change and to not die is also al ack of change, orm aybe I'm just crazy.
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Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 09:18 PM

He's an emanation / manting of the red tower aspect of Aka-Tosh / Lorkhan

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 08:47 PM)
I doubt he is even an avatar of Talos, personaly I think he is just a crazy person who wants a bit of publicity, and I don't think Tiber Septim is a god eithe,r mortals can never become gods in my oppinion, it's just not meant to happen and can't happen, the closest they can do is become false gods liek the Tribunal, of ocurse I'm not even sure if I would call the Aedra gods, in my oppinion for an entity to classify as a god it needs to be unkillable, in which case the only true gods in The Elder Scrolls are the Daedra.
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Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 09:21 PM

LOL even Bethesda got deceived when they wrote the script....

I bow to your endless wisdom

Now what about Mara ?

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 4 2005, 09:41 PM)
Not necessarily, the prophit could have been decieved, or it could have been just part of some scheme to bering Wulf publicity, or maybe Lord S was playing with the prophits mind, and the people at the Imperiel Library are like me just speculating based on their own oppinions and what we do know, so either could be wrong, the truth is, only Bethesda knows who Wulf REALLY is because they made the game and they get to decide, and since they aren't likely to give us any definate answers we are all left here to just speculate and hold to our opions, which we are all doing right now.
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Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 09:22 PM

All players had a collective halucination due to Bethesda's devs inadvendently spraying moonsugar over our CD !

QUOTE(TSBasilisk @ Sep 4 2005, 11:25 PM)
Then tell me how the Nerevarine came to possess the Luck of the Emperor when he spoke with Wulf?  What the oracle proclaimed is deemed canon.  The encounter with Wulf is similar to the encounters with the avatars of Mara and Zenithar.  Though there is no proof, there is no explanation for how they obtained the powerful items blessed with the powers of the gos who they are deemed as avatars of.  If the spirits of mortals are not able to become more than ghosts, how can travelers obtain blessings from shrines to hero-gods and saints?

If you wish to challenge our beliefs, answer the questions which are more than sarcasm.  Will you address this post I have made, and the one before it, or once again act as if they have no validity?
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Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 09:30 PM

A big key is here

QUOTE
Nerevarine: "Pantheon by incarnation, as all alive now know."


and here

QUOTE
Almalexia: "Hnnnh. Kyne and Mara and Dibella and sixteen Daedric elements: all contributed to the snake-faced queen when she touched the drum. Their sum? A Beauty Cala as none have seen. Cala! Wetness of Kingdom!"


and finally there

QUOTE
Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."


The manting is linked to the tower and the process of creation

It seems to be temporary

Manted-avatar have a tendency of being blown to ashes and appearing out of thin air...

Real avatar (incarnated) walk the earth in a normal fashion


And look at that crazy revelation

QUOTE
King of Worms: "The Jills of Aka-tosh have mended this numidition. Mannimarco remains as he was: the high priest of maggots."


You guys catch what numidition is ?

Anyone starting to figure out how old King of Worms really is ? as well as his friendship with Aka-Tosh/Arkay

Seems to mean Akatosh is all 9 of them, the whole wheel.

QUOTE(Azura's Star @ Sep 5 2005, 12:27 AM)
Upon rereading the Heresy once again, and realizing a certain mistake in my thinking, I can accept both "Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor" and "Hjalti is Tiber."  In fact, I might add "Hjalti is Tiber is Talos is aspect of Shor."  My argument would be with the notion, often derived from the Heresy, that Tiber Septim himself was nothing but an exceptionally cunning mortal who happened to have the Underking on his side.  I believe that they were both aspects of Lorkhan, as, I must conclude, was Zurin Arctus.  This would fit in well with your notion that the aspects of Lorkhan are gradually reuniting.

I must conclude that somehow, over the course of the Numidium effect, the three were reunited to form a single divine whole, and that the Ninth Divine is the sum of the attempts at CHIM of three of Lorkhan's aspects.

I suppose that this is not directly at odds with anything to be found in the Heresy.  I had thought (incorrectly) that the Heresy denied that Tiber Septim was Talos, which is in direct contradiction of Nu-Hatta's statements.  It says no such thing, so I rescind my earlier comment.

Anyway...that was confusing.
[snapback]2648757[/snapback]

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 19 2005, 09:32 PM

QUOTE(Astarsis @ Nov 19 2005, 08:18 PM)
He's an emanation / manting of the red tower aspect of Aka-Tosh / Lorkhan
[snapback]3380222[/snapback]

I'm not sure what you mean by linking Akatosh with Lorkhan here. It's hard to think of two principles that are more opposed!

Posted by: proweler Nov 19 2005, 09:49 PM

The Direnni glyphs have claimed another. Astarsis has sunk into madness.

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Nov 20 2005, 04:29 AM

*head explodes*

Posted by: Eralion Sethos Nov 20 2005, 05:19 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 19 2005, 01:49 PM)
The Direnni glyphs have claimed another. Astarsis has sunk into madness.
[snapback]3380484[/snapback]

Touched by Sheogorath? Or is Hermaeus Mora the culprit?

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 20 2005, 08:55 AM

Shezzarite power-symbols ---> "We saw you run around like the spirits of old, devoid of math, without your if-thens, succumbing to the Ever Now like slaves of the slim folly, stasis."

Posted by: Sinder Velvin Nov 20 2005, 09:27 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 4 2005, 11:35 PM)
The Numidium needs a powersource and Ysmir is set up. Zurin Arctus traps his soul - this time Ysmir is truely betrayed. Ysmir was an aspect of Lorkhan after all so it can power the Numidium. The Numidium is then destroyed by Zurin Arctus.

Daggerfall happens, Ysmir gets his heart back and shows up whit as Pelagius advisor.
[snapback]2645392[/snapback]


But the events of Daggerfall took place much later.

QUOTE(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 5 2005, 02:47 AM)
I doubt he is even an avatar of Talos, personaly I think he is just a crazy person who wants a bit of publicity
[snapback]2646967[/snapback]


All skepticism and no belief makes Jack a dull boy.

Posted by: proweler Nov 20 2005, 02:27 PM

QUOTE(Sinder Velvin @ Nov 20 2005, 04:27 AM)
But the events of Daggerfall took place much later.
All skepticism and no belief makes Jack a dull boy.
[snapback]3385172[/snapback]


My mistake, should have been. Wulfheart reforms and destroys the Anumidium. He shows up as Pelagius advisor. Daggerfall happens and the he (might) got his heart back.

Posted by: Daveh Nov 21 2005, 02:00 AM

[/quote]
This is insane, but make sense

[/quote]

Ok thats going into my sig

Posted by: Allanon of The Dunmer Nov 21 2005, 05:56 AM

Well on the whole mortal vs. god topic...
Vivec didn't put up much more of a fight than any other mere mortal I fought so does that make him not a God?
And I so looked forward to the city of Vivec being destroyed when I destroyed this pee on of a God... You want true power look to my Lord Dagon...

Posted by: Sinder Velvin Nov 21 2005, 09:20 AM

QUOTE(Allanon of The Dunmer @ Nov 21 2005, 06:56 AM)
You want true power look to my Lord Dagon...
[snapback]3393320[/snapback]


I defeated your Lord Dagon in The Elder Scrolls Legends: Battlespire. He was piece of cake.

Posted by: proweler Nov 21 2005, 09:40 AM

QUOTE(Allanon of The Dunmer @ Nov 21 2005, 12:56 AM)
Vivec didn't put up much more of a fight than  any other mere mortal I fought so does that make him not a God?
[snapback]3393320[/snapback]


He has been rationing his powers for the last 500 years, there isn't much left of him.

Posted by: Allanon of The Dunmer Nov 21 2005, 04:26 PM

Lord Dagon being sent back to Oblivion is only a mere set back in the true aspect of time...

Anyways if it weren't for his very essence you wouldn't have been able to achieve that...

Ration his power? Why would Vivec do that? Just Wondering

Posted by: Penta Nov 21 2005, 04:53 PM

Sheogorath touched Astarsis.
He speaks wisdom, hidden in madness.
Who understands those insane sensible words?

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 23 2005, 01:26 AM

Just seen this in http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/forum.shtml following a discussion about whether Tiber was born in Atmora or High Rock:

Very interesting. This strengthens my belief that the Blood of Lorkhan's Heart = Septim bloodline = "renders even most immortal blood illegitmate."

Posted by: Penta Nov 24 2005, 03:12 PM

Does that mean that everyone descending from Tiber, no matter how far down the line, has the blood of Lorkhan?
If that is true, eventually everyone will have the blood of Lorkhan, because all the bloodlines cross eventually.
So far in the future everyone can become Emperor.

Posted by: calgor Nov 26 2005, 01:00 AM

So stasis has reigned since the time of Tiber Septim. Hmm. Anumidium has blown that away, I would guess. One more piece left, then, if we are to believe Vehk.

I had long been thinking about these things, and this conversation dislodged a lost little fact from my memory that has helped me see things in a new fashion, one that makes more sense (hm than the old one... It is in these moments that one feels so foolish for not having seen the obvious long ago... ''

And in the end, it only helps me understand what is and was better, it doesn't help me see into the future...

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 26 2005, 09:23 AM

Would you care to share that "lost little fact" from your memory, calgor?

Posted by: calgor Nov 27 2005, 12:22 PM

Oh, it was something that was mentioned in this conversation... Just something I had forgotten. Embarrassing, really. I'd rather not compound my shame by saying which well-known and completely obvious little tidbit it was...

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 27 2005, 04:35 PM

Now I'm intrigued!

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Dec 22 2005, 05:33 AM

What if Talos/Reman/etc. all are part of that "oversoul" of the Amulet of Kings, like....spirit of Lorkhan?

Posted by: Master of Oblivion Jan 2 2006, 05:23 PM

According to the acturian heresy the wulfking becomes Pelagius I advisor. Yet he is souless. I find this odd. Then Pelagius is assasinated by the dark brotherhood. He seems to just disapear from history after this. Also something interesting I found in that story.

The Numidium, while not the god Tiber Septim and the Dwemer hoped for (the Underking was not exactly Lorkhan, after all), it does the job. After its work on Summerset Isle a new threat appears -- a rotting undead wizard who controls the skies. He blows the Numidium apart. But it pounds him into the ground with its last flailings, leaving only a black splotch. The Mantella falls into the sea, seemingly forever.

Hm so maybe the underking isn't Lorkhan or not a complete one.

Posted by: proweler Jan 2 2006, 05:58 PM

The Mantella was suposed to power the Anumidium but the Underking was not powerfull enhough to make it a real god. He was just one incarnation out of many afterall.

King Wulfheart has reformed from the ashes verry often. That some of his power was still trapped in the Mantella might not have been a real problem.



Posted by: Jobasha Jan 3 2006, 03:05 AM

If you were the ghost of a god, how would you know?

Posted by: proweler Jan 3 2006, 03:56 AM

QUOTE(Jobasha @ Jan 2 2006, 10:05 PM)
If you were the ghost of a god, how would you know?
[right][snapback]3763261[/snapback][/right]


Profecy from those who can see better?

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml

Posted by: MmK Sep 7 2006, 08:53 PM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Sep 4 2005, 08:51 PM) [snapback]2646999[/snapback]

Yep, everyone else is wrong, everyone at TIL, the Prophet, and Stargazey. You are totally right.

So you agree. Good. Those sources can be wrong,

Edit:
wow, that was bad. i clinked on a link in another topic, i diddnt know this one was this old. and it wasnt sarcasm.

Posted by: Vipera Sep 7 2006, 10:42 PM

QUOTE(Pilaf @ Sep 3 2005, 12:53 PM) [snapback]2633421[/snapback]

We all have personal theories about Wulf and his connection to Talos. Anyone else here believe he really was an avatar of the old Emperor, or just a ghost of an old legionaire?

I did the Imperial Cult questline before the Main Quest, so I was well equipped to recognize Wulf for what he actually was.

Posted by: Luagar2 Sep 7 2006, 10:44 PM

QUOTE(MmK @ Sep 7 2006, 02:53 PM) [snapback]8000426[/snapback]

So you agree. Good. Those sources can be wrong,

Hmm, thread necromancy taken to a new extent... for the sake of sarcasm, or so I would presume...

Posted by: MmK Sep 7 2006, 10:47 PM

QUOTE(Luagar2 @ Sep 7 2006, 05:44 PM) [snapback]8001451[/snapback]

Hmm, thread necromancy taken to a new extent... for the sake of sarcasm, or so I would presume...

wow, that was bad. i clinked on a link in another topic, i diddnt know this one was this old. and it wasnt sarcasm.

Posted by: Vipera Sep 7 2006, 10:48 PM

Whoa! I didn't even notice the date of the last reply!

Thread necromancy, indeed.

Posted by: Doctor_Huxtable Sep 7 2006, 10:49 PM

QUOTE(Luagar2 @ Sep 7 2006, 04:44 PM) [snapback]8001451[/snapback]

Hmm, thread necromancy taken to a new extent... for the sake of sarcasm, or so I would presume...



Haha..true. I don't even think the person who made this topic is around anymore.

Posted by: MK Sep 7 2006, 10:57 PM

QUOTE(Doctor_Huxtable @ Sep 7 2006, 05:49 PM) [snapback]8001506[/snapback]

Haha..true. I don't even think the person who made this topic is around anymore.


Yeah, for a second there I got excited to see such forum luminaries like Nigedo, Vaanic~One, Featherbrain, and others all posting again. Then...this.

We need to perform a summoning. I shall perform a summoning.

Posted by: Vipera Sep 7 2006, 11:01 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 7 2006, 05:57 PM) [snapback]8001600[/snapback]

Yeah, for a second there I got excited to see such forum luminaries like Nigedo, Vaanic~One, Featherbrain, and others all posting again. Then...this.

We need to perform a summoning. I shall perform a summoning.

I assume you speak of calling a moderator?

It's good to see you, MK.

Posted by: Chazemataz Sep 7 2006, 11:51 PM

edit: looks like we have a thread necrophiliac in the house! w00t

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Sep 8 2006, 02:17 AM

QUOTE(MmK @ Sep 7 2006, 03:53 PM) [snapback]8000426[/snapback]

So you agree. Good. Those sources can be wrong,

Edit:
wow, that was bad. i clinked on a link in another topic, i diddnt know this one was this old. and it wasnt sarcasm.


Can someone stone the troll necromancer?

Posted by: Breon Sep 8 2006, 07:04 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 11 2005, 09:08 PM) [snapback]3312777[/snapback]

Lorkhan isn't Akatosh if that is what you are saying and he understood Lorkhans "gift" just fine. To him and the first Mer of Nirn, it was something bad, something that pulled them away from what they were and weakened them. The first Man of Nirn rejoiced and embraced their weakness, for in their eyes they were truly free now.


Seeing the underlined part above was well worth the price of admission...

Posted by: proweler Sep 8 2006, 07:29 AM

That's because Lorkhan isn't Akatosh. It's like saying hot is cold or that the head of Ourobouros is the same as his tail.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=485557&st=80

QUOTE(Allerleirauh @ Jun 30 2006, 08:34 PM) [snapback]7077448[/snapback]
QUOTE(proweler @ Jun 30 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]7077270[/snapback]

QUOTE(MK @ Jun 23 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]6970035[/snapback]
QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 23 2006, 09:46 AM) [snapback]6969390[/snapback]
Shezzar == Akatosh ?
You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.

Tamriel is an impossible place, built on impossible precepts. It's, frankly, a magic ball of sentient schizophrenia.

These are why the echoes in every corner of every myth. These are why the ease of men to immortals and immortals into frozen egos.

It is pure magic, thought up by the nagging itch called "if", which necessitated a "then", which in turn made everything scared that it would go away forever.

It is a baby universe with doom already marked on its head, because it cannot really exist, it has no real mother, and it doesn't understand how to get out, or why it might, or if it should because the rest of the void is a horrible thought filled with nothing.

And it is not really populated by classic medieval Facegen people. At least in the eastern portions of Cyrodiil, it's not.


If Lorkhan is Akatosh, then how come there are eight spokes in the wheel? Or was the statement an over generalisation?

I think everyone has been taking this statement for more than it's worth. The two terms aren't so interchangeable that the words become meaningless. I am one person, but if I cut off my right hand with my left hand, it's not the same as if I cut off my left hand with my right hand. Just because I happen to be one person doesn't mean I cease having a stomach, or a left eye, even though both of these things can legitimately be called "me."


But you should try, http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=422404 for the Full Monty of Lore explanation.

Posted by: Wolf101 Sep 8 2006, 07:58 AM

Wulf was Talos. But I have my own theories on who Talos really was.

Posted by: Breon Sep 8 2006, 07:24 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Sep 8 2006, 01:29 AM) [snapback]8005756[/snapback]

That's because Lorkhan isn't Akatosh. It's like saying hot is cold or that the head of Ourobouros is the same as his tail.


I've watched you explain the 'Lorkhan IS Akatosh yet IS NOT' concept to a number of people over the past few weeks, so when I saw that comment from January I had to take a pot-shot. Sorry, but it was a knee-jerk response to something I found humorous.

And just to be argumentative... hot is cold, the head is the tail, and I ARE WE ALL.

Posted by: Doctor_Huxtable Sep 8 2006, 07:30 PM

QUOTE(Wolf101 @ Sep 8 2006, 01:58 AM) [snapback]8005879[/snapback]

Wulf was Talos. But I have my own theories on who Talos really was.


I'd like to hear those theories!

Posted by: Nigedo Oct 5 2006, 07:43 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Sep 7 2006, 10:57 PM) [snapback]8001600[/snapback]

Yeah, for a second there I got excited to see such forum luminaries like Nigedo, Vaanic~One, Featherbrain, and others all posting again. Then...this.

We need to perform a summoning. I shall perform a summoning.

Dammit! What's all this about? How did I get here?

One moon summoning ritual I suppose...

Posted by: adriaan Jan 14 2007, 11:09 PM

Thread necromancy FTW

as for the thread, i'd say that Akatosh is just one side of the coin

Llorkhan being the coin the Daedra one side and the Aedra the other

however these are just the mumblings of someone who went to far into the realm of the Banker

Posted by: Luagar2 Jan 15 2007, 12:43 AM

QUOTE(adriaan @ Jan 14 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]9027250[/snapback]

Thread necromancy FTW

This thread's used to it...
QUOTE(adriaan @ Jan 14 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]9027250[/snapback]

as for the thread, i'd say that Akatosh is just one side of the coin

Llorkhan being the coin the Daedra one side and the Aedra the other

however these are just the mumblings of someone who went to far into the realm of the Banker

Melt the coin though and you'll find the daedra to be more than just the opposite side of the Aedra, as the Aedra will melt away and the Daedra remain... besides, the Daedra are not that reliant on Lorkhan to be a simple side of him...

Posted by: proweler Jan 15 2007, 01:47 AM

QUOTE(Luagar2 @ Jan 15 2007, 12:43 AM) [snapback]9027926[/snapback]

This thread's used to it...

Melt the coin though and you'll find the daedra to be more than just the opposite side of the Aedra, as the Aedra will melt away and the Daedra remain... besides, the Daedra are not that reliant on Lorkhan to be a simple side of him...


Ashes to King Wulfheart, Dust to Dust.


Then again, the stuff we call Aedra these days is all lies, just as much as the idea that they were completely selfless in their sacrifice. All in all it'd be more accurate to say that we are the coin and I'd fiercely advocate against any forms of melting to prove a point.

I swear I will write that down one day, when I have 3 months time to figure out how the hell the conclusion that Mundus is a bonewalker.

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