Aedra
A Random Adventurer
Oct 23 2006, 04:08 PM
Post #1


Acolyte


Joined: 6-October 06




So from what I understand alot of the Aedra that made the world left after the creation and went to Autherius because they didn't like the world or didn't want to be tied to it, while others stayed and sacrificed themselves so that it would live. But my question is, could the Aedra that went to Autherius ever try and come back and destroy the world, sorta like finishing off something you felt never should have been allowed to live.


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Lord Nerevar
Oct 23 2006, 04:35 PM
Post #2


Disciple


Joined: 12-November 02




Read the guide to the daedra. The daedra I said? Yes, the daedra. It includes a synopsis of creation and links to creation stories like the monomyth. Some parts of the monomyth mention the Aedra actually dying as they made the world. They became the bones of the earth, aka the laws of nature, as well as the physical substance that make Nirn. They are not responsible for magic, that was Magnus's doing, as he left Nirn before its creation. His shadow is magic. Others say that the Aedra became weaker, but I believe in the Aedra are dead interpretation. If you read Vivec's sermons, you begin to realize that it's actually an allegory of the monomyth. In it, Vivec births monsters, who represent the Aedra, and then kills them. Their deaths represent the creation of Nirn.


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QUOTE(GroovyJude @ Aug 17 2006, 01:14 PM)

I fail to see how that diminishes the awesomeness of hot lesbians in Catholic schoolgirl outfits.

A Random Adventurer
Oct 23 2006, 04:40 PM
Post #3


Acolyte


Joined: 6-October 06




I've read the creation myths, and I'm not talking about the ones that died and became the laws of nature. I'm talking about the ones that followed Magnus to Autherius, those that left the creation.


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I don't want to work
I want to bang on this drum all day
I don't want to play
I just want to bang on this drum all day
Lord Nerevar
Oct 23 2006, 04:49 PM
Post #4


Disciple


Joined: 12-November 02




QUOTE(A Random Adventurer @ Oct 23 2006, 11:40 AM)

I've read the creation myths, and I'm not talking about the ones that died and became the laws of nature. I'm talking about the ones that followed Magnus to Autherius, those that left the creation.


They can't come back, as far as I know. For the same reasons that Daedra lords can't really come into this world without great effort.

Edit: I should mention that the Daedra Lords may not actually enter Nirn, but instead that it seems that merely their Avatars (physical manifestations of their selves) are what actually enter Nirn.

This post has been edited by Lord Nerevar: Oct 23 2006, 05:16 PM


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QUOTE(GroovyJude @ Aug 17 2006, 01:14 PM)

I fail to see how that diminishes the awesomeness of hot lesbians in Catholic schoolgirl outfits.

proweler
Oct 23 2006, 05:18 PM
Post #5


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Random Adventurer:

You are looking at fringe stuff now. Not much is known and even less with certainty. This is a bit of speculation.

Vehks Teachings - The book of Hours also has a few notes.

Lord Nerevar:

They certainly can, during a Dragon Broke we get Mnemnoli floating right over Red Mountain.


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The Imperial Library

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QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM)
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Lord Nerevar
Oct 23 2006, 05:35 PM
Post #6


Disciple


Joined: 12-November 02




It's recently been an idea of mine that Nirn is the physical plane, whereas the rest of Aurbus and Sithis are non-physical or meta-physical. It seemed to me in my interpretation that non-physical beings, such as the Autherius beings or Daedra couldn't exist or exist long on Nirn. The only way they could, would be to create an Avatar of themselves, which is a physical being, which would encapsolate the metaphysical self of the being. As for the Mnemnoli I'm not sure. Perhaps they also encapsulated themselves in physical form, or there was a metaphysical hole formed within Nirn that the Mnemnoli could have appeared in. Notice that they floated above the surface. I think if they actually touched the Earth, then their metaphysical selves would have come into contact with physical reality which could have destroyed them, and even possibly everything else in the vicinity or more.

This post has been edited by Lord Nerevar: Oct 23 2006, 05:36 PM


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QUOTE(GroovyJude @ Aug 17 2006, 01:14 PM)

I fail to see how that diminishes the awesomeness of hot lesbians in Catholic schoolgirl outfits.

TSBasilisk
Oct 23 2006, 06:16 PM
Post #7


Master


Joined: 9-June 03




I think you could say that there is no place for Magnus and the others anymore; they couldn't return if they wanted to. The Aedra who remained created the basic limits of the universe, the eight fundamental concepts of Mundus. The Daedra in turn came to define the forces that pushed away and towards these concepts.

Magnus and the others left, however, and in so doing did not place certain limits. Now that the universe has coalesced into a single form, there is no room for a new limit on Mundus, nor a new force to define the limits.


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Lorus
Oct 23 2006, 10:30 PM
Post #8


Disciple


Joined: 19-September 04




The Commentaries suggest that Magnus and others who followed him might be working for Nirn's destruction via Mehrunes Dagon, though keep in mind that is only one perspective and that of Dagonites.

QUOTE(Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes @ Book Four)
I give my soul to the Magna Ge, sayeth the joyous in Paradise, for they created Mehrunes the Razor in secret, in the very bowels of Lyg, the domain of the Upstart who vanishes. Though they came from diverse waters, each Get shared sole purpose: to artifice a prince of good, spinning his likeness in random swath, and imbuing him with Oblivion's most precious and scarce asset: hope.


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"...but the Whitestrake did warn against the growing love with Perrif. 'We are ada, Mor, and change things through love. We must take care lest we beget more monsters on this earth. If you do not desist, she will take to you, and you will transform all Cyrod if you do this.'" --Pelinal; The Song of Pelinal, Vol. 5
Albides
Oct 23 2006, 11:43 PM
Post #9


Disciple


Joined: 23-August 06




QUOTE(A Random Adventurer @ Oct 24 2006, 01:08 AM)

So from what I understand alot of the Aedra that made the world left after the creation and went to Autherius because they didn't like the world or didn't want to be tied to it, while others stayed and sacrificed themselves so that it would live. But my question is, could the Aedra that went to Autherius ever try and come back and destroy the world, sorta like finishing off something you felt never should have been allowed to live.

Those that left could only do so "at great cost", though what this cost was, we don't know. But to return from the static realm of ideas in which they happily dwell to destroy something they tried to escape seems terribly unlikely.

QUOTE(Lorus @ Oct 24 2006, 07:30 AM)

The Commentaries suggest that Magnus and others who followed him might be working for Nirn's destruction via Mehrunes Dagon, though keep in mind that is only one perspective and that of Dagonites.

Not destruction, "liberation". I'm not sure what the Mythic Dawn Commentaries are really trying to tell us. According to them, Mehrunes was the one that "cracked the face of Lyg" which is "the domain of the upstart that vanishes", and, combined with some of MK's prodding ("what constellation matches the description of the upstart that vanishes?"), this suggests Dagon overthrew Lorkhan.



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________________________
"Everything we see hides another thing. We always want to see what is hidden by what we see, but it is impossible."
-Rene Magritte
proweler
Oct 23 2006, 11:52 PM
Post #10


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Albides @ Oct 24 2006, 12:43 AM)
Not destruction, "liberation". I'm not sure what the Mythic Dawn Commentaries are really trying to tell us. According to them, Mehrunes was the one that "cracked the face of Lyg" which is "the domain of the upstart that vanishes", and, combined with some of MK's prodding ("what constellation matches the description of the upstart that vanishes?"), this suggests Dagon overthrew Lorkhan.


Well that mostly just reads as the Allesians overthrowing the Ayleids in their rebellion - part of M. Dagons sphere.

The destruction comes from the Aldudaga which mentions that Mehrunes won't be a leaper demon untill he destroys all of the stole Kalpa. I figure Kalpa is as much as Anu-Stuff or Time, basically what Mundus is made off.

This post has been edited by proweler: Oct 23 2006, 11:53 PM


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The Imperial Library

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM)
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Albides
Oct 24 2006, 12:47 AM
Post #11


Disciple


Joined: 23-August 06




QUOTE(proweler @ Oct 24 2006, 08:52 AM)

Well that mostly just reads as the Allesians overthrowing the Ayleids in their rebellion - part of M. Dagons sphere.


I'm well aware of your theory that it's a metaphor for the Alessian rebellion, but as I pointed out, MK has suggested the "upstart who vanishes" is Lorkhan, which suggests Lyg, his domain, is his plane/planet, the moon, whose "face" was "cracked" by, of all things, Dagon. I'm not entirely sure of the implications so far.

QUOTE(MK)
And which constellation sounds like "the Upstart who vanishes"?

From here.

This post has been edited by Albides: Oct 24 2006, 12:49 AM


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________________________
"Everything we see hides another thing. We always want to see what is hidden by what we see, but it is impossible."
-Rene Magritte
Luagar2
Oct 24 2006, 01:03 AM
Post #12


Master


Joined: 7-September 03
From: Zafirbel Bay




QUOTE(Albides @ Oct 23 2006, 05:43 PM)

Those that left could only do so "at great cost", though what this cost was, we don't know. But to return from the static realm of ideas in which they happily dwell to destroy something they tried to escape seems terribly unlikely.

Its not unlikely that they would dislike the existence of Nirn. The very existence of Nirn ties them to it, they cannot deny that it is there, and whats more there is a flow of their world into the other. Even further, most probably view the Mundus as a mistake, whether it should be taken care of is a different matter though...


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"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
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proweler
Oct 24 2006, 01:11 AM
Post #13


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




Considering history repeats itselves, I would say that there are two possible interpretations; the Allesian uprising and the war before the Convention. Althought the latter suggest that Trinimac is Mehrunes Dagon, which makes Malacath look rather strange.

Either way, Mankar put Mehrunes Dagon down as a Liberator, that much is true, but to what end? If Lorkhan is death like the Aedra, who do we need to be liberated from and why would Dagon care?

The Fights of the Aldudaga provide Dagon with a whole different motivation. Which pretty much comes down to the destruction of Nirn to provided Mehrunes with the abbility to be a leaper demon again.

---

I could tie in the whole "alternative" view on Anu-Padomay and Anuiel-Sithis, in which Mehrunes is Anuiel-Padomay aligned, trying to separate the universe into Void and Magicka but that's not really the course of debate I'd like to pursue.

This post has been edited by proweler: Oct 24 2006, 01:16 AM


--------------------
The Imperial Library

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM)
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
Albides
Oct 24 2006, 01:23 AM
Post #14


Disciple


Joined: 23-August 06




QUOTE(Luagar2 @ Oct 24 2006, 10:03 AM)

Its not unlikely that they would dislike the existence of Nirn. The very existence of Nirn ties them to it, they cannot deny that it is there, and whats more there is a flow of their world into the other. Even further, most probably view the Mundus as a mistake, whether it should be taken care of is a different matter though...

Er, I didn't say they don't dislike it, otherwise they wouldn't try to escape it. I said I think it unlikely that they would return to it in order to destroy it, which seems uncharacteristic of the aedra. As has been suggested, they might already have made a weapon so they don't have to stir themselves to action.

QUOTE(proweler @ Oct 24 2006, 10:11 AM)

Considering history repeats itselves, I would say that there are two possible interpretations; the Allesian uprising and the war before the Convention. Althought the latter suggest that Trinimac is Mehrunes Dagon, which makes Malacath look rather strange.

I agree. I can't help but think there's something we're missing here.

QUOTE
Either way, Mankar put Mehrunes Dagon down as a Liberator, that much is true, but to what end? If Lorkhan is death like the Aedra, who do we need to be liberated from and why would Dagon care?

I have almost gone bald from scratching my head.

QUOTE
I could tie in the whole "alternative" view on Anu-Padomay and Anuiel-Sithis, in which Mehrunes is Anuiel-Padomay aligned, trying to separate the universe into Void and Magicka but that's not really the course of debate I'd like to pursue.

Thank you. It's not one I'd rather pursue either, as it's outside the scope of the thread and it quickly becomes exhausting for the both of us.


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________________________
"Everything we see hides another thing. We always want to see what is hidden by what we see, but it is impossible."
-Rene Magritte
proweler
Oct 24 2006, 01:36 AM
Post #15


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(Albides @ Oct 24 2006, 02:23 AM)
I agree. I can't help but think there's something we're missing here. I have almost gone bald from scratching my head.


Mankar's speech makes him sound like a consperacy theorist who's grabbing at a few oddities, so perhaps we are aproaching it wrongly. I think we have to seperate discovering Mankars idea's from debunking them at the same time by trying to fit them into the Monomyth as a different view.

That's all for tonight.

This post has been edited by proweler: Oct 24 2006, 01:37 AM


--------------------
The Imperial Library

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM)
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.
WKinkade
Oct 24 2006, 01:49 AM
Post #16


Disciple


Joined: 21-September 03
From: Where all the Duckies come from!!! DUCKIES RULE!!!




QUOTE(proweler @ Oct 23 2006, 07:11 PM)

The Fights of the Aldudaga provide Dagon with a whole different motivation. Which pretty much comes down to the destruction of Nirn to provided Mehrunes with the abbility to be a leaper demon again.

Is a leaper demon comparable to anything that we know of outside the nordic myths?

QUOTE(Albides @ Oct 23 2006, 07:23 PM)

Er, I didn't say they don't dislike it, otherwise they wouldn't try to escape it. I said I think it unlikely that they would return to it in order to destroy it, which seems uncharacteristic of the aedra. As has been suggested, they might already have made a weapon so they don't have to stir themselves to action.

Well I wouldn't do anything if I were the Aedra either, they've got to travel all the way through Oblivion and then to Nirn. Nothings worth all that trouble...



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proweler
Oct 24 2006, 11:00 AM
Post #17


Patriarch


Joined: 26-November 02




QUOTE(WKinkade @ Oct 24 2006, 02:49 AM)

Is a leaper demon comparable to anything that we know of outside the nordic myths?


The Yokumyth have spirits who jump to the farshores. If the creation of Mundus really jammed up the Aurbis like some say it did, not only the Aedra lost their abbility to jump but the Daedra are eqaully trapped.


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The Imperial Library

Can't stop the Rock.


QUOTE(Kaleban explaining why generic fantasy is so appealing @ Feb 25 2007, 02:00 AM)
Seeing a 20ft tall teleporting flea breaks my immersion.





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