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zingbat
Disciple

Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 1162
The judgement of Vivec
      #2284138 - 02/26/04 12:57 AM

I propose for, role-playing sake, that we judge Vivec and the Tribunal in an improvised Daggerfall type tribunal. If Vivec is condemned then he gets to rotten for ages in a dark imperial prison cell.

We need a jury. Anyone who comes to this forum will do.

A judge, someone who knows something of Tamriel law and application of law.

One or more acusation advocates.

One or more defense advocates.

So lets exaust all evidences and look throug them at the light of Imperial law and see if Vivec should punished. If neccessary we create new and just laws. But let not justice be undone.

We also need an acusator and witnesses and the acusator would be me.

I acuse the Tribunal of the murder of Nerevar and usurpation of power by illegal means and without a contract with the Dark Brotherhood.

I acuse the Tribunal of retaining and hiding a valuable and very powerful magic artifact called the heart of lhorkan and use it for his own needs without first consulting the Emperor. Considering the fact that the Tribunal has put in danger the entire world of Nirn and created that abomination Dagoth Uhr and the Corprus plage. These is very serious indeed.

I acuse the Tribunal of falsely claming to be Gods without the aprovation or intervention of the 8 divinities. Tribunal godhood is an insult and mockery to the gods and corrupts people faith in the eight divinities.

I acuse the Tribunal, with his Godhood claims to conspire and try to weaken the power of the emperor, just like they tried to usurp the throne of the Nerevarine and succeced.

We first need a judge, advocates, witnesses and a jury then the real tribunal will be open. Anyone is ineterested ?






--------------------
Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/27/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2284384 - 02/26/04 01:55 AM

Zingbat,

Your motive is correct, but unfortunately this idea cannot be implented. You wish to see justice done, but the people available are mere scholars and I myself am the only citizen of Cyrodiil of all of them. I am of the lower class, so I have no influence among the judiciary system of the Empire, and certainly not enough to convict an ex-god, no matter what his crimes.

I personally would like for Vivec to speak to the scholars of this Empire for himself, but he no longer shows himself in public, or at least very rarely. Nigedo I believe has spoken with him long ago, so perhaps you could put in a word with the good fellow. If you can somehow set something up, than I would be happy to be there. Until then though Vivec lies in the hands of Stendarr.

Truly yours,
Girai Harkaanius
Student of the Imperial Arts and Citizen of the Empire
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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zingbat
Disciple

Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 1162
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2284411 - 02/26/04 02:03 AM

Any honest citizen of Tamriel can take any of the positions mentioned above.


--------------------
Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi

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Ratwar
Diviner

Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 4264
Loc: In my Head, hiding from the voices...
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2284482 - 02/26/04 02:19 AM

I'll be a defense advocate. If we actually do this.

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Chris II- level 56 Breton
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*In remember's of my Characters Chris and Will who both died at the hands of the evil hard drive crash*

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

Reged: 10/09/02
Posts: 2660
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2284545 - 02/26/04 02:34 AM

Hmmm... if convicted, he should be sentenced to 4000 years of service for the Dunmer people... oh, wait...

Seriously. Good luck catching him. I imagine he can be slippery when he wants to be, and he's used to his liberty. The only way you're going to do anything to Vivec is if he decides that it would serve some purpose to allow you to do it. And I don't see that happening. I suppose you can try him in absentia.

(two c's in accuse, btw )



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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
Your First Witness [Re: zingbat]
      #2284632 - 02/26/04 02:58 AM

VIVEC daughter of Mphaal and from her male sons and [forbidden] I have heard and the voice of the weak [forbidden] of the men who are fighting [forbidden] of raging women who curse and afflict and cause pain they have descended against them Vendor-sellers, Etadachiel and Padachiel, The Emperor the great and The Unnamed Vendor and Sahtiel and seized them and by the tufts of hair and the tresses of their heads and broke the horns which were high and tied them by the tufts of hair of their heads and said to them "remove that which you have cursed" and they said to him "from the pain of our heart we cursed and from the bitterness of our palate we resolved to curse" I have made you swear and adjure you in the name of Mnemol and Etadachiel and Padachiel and The Emperor the Great and The Unnamed Vendor and Sahtiel that you release [forbidden] and free [forbidden] VIVEC daughter of Mphaal and [forbidden] male and female from [forbidden] all the curses [forbidden] cursed and from the curses of [forbidden] and the mother and from the curse of the prostitute [forbidden] and the fetus and from the curse of the employee and employer who stole the wage and from the curse of the brothers who did not divide truthfully among themselves and from the curses of all people who curse in the name of idol demons and their surrenderings you are the healer you are the healer who heals sicknesses with words you are the healer who turns away the sicknesses and the curses of those who cursed VIVEC daughter of Mphaal in the name of the Aedra and Etadachiel and Padachiel and The Emperor and The Unnamed Vendor and heal and annul the curses of those who curse VIVEC daughter of Mphaal. And upon a stone which is unsplit I sat [forbidden] and I wrote all of the curses upon a new bowl of clay and I sent back the curses of those who cursed VIVEC daughter of Mphaal to their masters until they release and bless in the name of Ysmiel the earthbone and Bosmiel the earthbone and in the name of Ysmiel and Bosmiel you release from the curses of those who curse VIVEC daughter of Mphaal as a man as a man is freed from the house of bondage and from the house of weapons GYEH GYEH AL AFLAQ [forbidden] may there be health and sealing [forbidden] and to the house of VIVEC daughter of Mphaal and to the male sons [forbidden]

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

Reged: 10/09/02
Posts: 2660
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Vehk]
      #2284717 - 02/26/04 03:22 AM

Well. Obviously I have no career in prophecy.

Is there a judge? I have no skill at Imperial law. I suppose a mob will serve as well as a court, for a trial such as this, with the sentence already decided!

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ajax34i
Acolyte

Reged: 07/14/00
Posts: 167
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2284736 - 02/26/04 03:27 AM

Wouldn't you need total newbies or people who have never played the game for the jury? Everyone else seems to have made up his or her mind about Vivec, and that WOULD affect the outcome of the trial.

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Ratwar
Diviner

Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 4264
Loc: In my Head, hiding from the voices...
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: ajax34i]
      #2284777 - 02/26/04 03:35 AM

Quote:

Wouldn't you need total newbies or people who have never played the game for the jury? Everyone else seems to have made up his or her mind about Vivec, and that WOULD affect the outcome of the trial.




Yeah, that is a good point...

--------------------
Chris II- level 56 Breton
Other asorted characters

*In remember's of my Characters Chris and Will who both died at the hands of the evil hard drive crash*

I'm on a quest to prove that at least one moderator is really a Homicidal maniac. Any information on this subject is welcome by PM.

adiuvo novus populus


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B
Disciple

Reged: 11/10/01
Posts: 1872
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Your Words Seem Familiar [Re: Vehk]
      #2284778 - 02/26/04 03:36 AM

My good Vehk,

How nice of you to join us once again. Forgive me for detracting from the topic at hand, but your words have stirred memories inside my head. Just under two years ago, Jobasha received a similar message from the Morag Sultha:

    A curse on the Khajiti House:

    "PSJJJJ daughter of Satakel and from her male sons and [forbidden] I have heard and the voice of the weak [forbidden] of the men who are fighting [forbidden] of raging women who curse and afflict and cause pain they have descended against them Aedra, Etadachiel and Padachiel, The Dagonites the great and The Unnamed Baron and Sahtiel and seized them and by the tufts of hair and the tresses of their heads and broke the horns which were high and tied them by the tufts of hair of their heads and said to them "remove that which you have cursed" and they said to him "from the pain of our heart we cursed and from the bitterness of our palate we resolved to curse" I have made you swear and adjure you in the name of Aedra and Etadachiel and Padachiel and The Dagonites the great and The Unnamed Baron and Anuiel that you release and free [forbidden] PSJJJJ daughter of Satakel and [forbidden] male and female from [forbidden] all the curses [forbidden] cursed and from the curses of [forbidden] and the mother and from the curse of the prostitute [forbidden] and the fetus and from the curse of the employee and employer who stole the wage and from the curse of the brothers who did not divide truthfully among themselves and from the curses of all people who curse in the name of idol demons and their surrenderings you are the healer you are the healer who heals sicknesses with words you are the healer who turns away the sicknesses and the curses of those who cursed PSJJJJ daughter of Satakel in the name of the Aedra and Etadachiel and Padachiel and The Dagonites and The Unnamed Baron and heal and annul the curses of those who curse PSJJJJ daughter of Satakel. And upon a stone which is unsplit I sat [forbidden] and I wrote all of the curses upon a new bowl of clay and I sent back the curses of those who cursed PSJJJJ daughter of Satakel to their masters until they release and bless in the name of Sariel the angel and Barakiel the angel and in the name of Sariel and Barakiel you release from the curses of those who curse PSJJJJ daughter of Satakel as a man as a man is freed from the house of bondage and from the house of weapons ALMSIVI ALMSIVI AL SEHT [forbidden] may there be health and sealing [forbidden] and to the house of PSJJJJ daughter of Satakel and to the male sons [forbidden]."

    Learn true Scripture as I stuff your mouth with birds.

Your words, just like the aforementioned message, have some greater significance. Perhaps you can enlighten us on their deeper meaning.

~B

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~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer

Edited by B (02/26/04 04:17 AM)

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General_Crespin
Adept

Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2284993 - 02/26/04 04:42 AM

I'm willing to serve as a member of the jury; I've not yet completely studied enough of Vivec to know whether he is in the right, or in the wrong.

--------------------
"The past is but the beginning of a beginning, and all that is and has been is but the twilight of the dawn."

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Vehk]
      #2285287 - 02/26/04 06:23 AM

Master Vehk, I am astonished by the impudence of these upstarts. But their foolishness precedes them like the long shadows of broken towers. May their mouths be stuffed with birds.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/27/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Vehk]
      #2285530 - 02/26/04 07:58 AM

Vehk,

I did not mean impudence, on the contrary, I recognize your knowledge. Far beyond any mortal before or after you. I also recognize that you are still mortal, and that in your madness you would consider yourself a god. I have said nothing untrue, but have studied long and come to the conclusion that what you have said and done is what would have been done by any other mortal had they been in your position.

Nonetheless, anyone must be held for their crimes. I do not and can not curse or condemn you, I can only speak the truth. You have taken a position not rightfully yours, and only belonging to imperfect beings such as the Aedra and Daedra by divine intervention. You have seized something not yours and led an entire race astray, wielding much more power than any mortal should possess. Like any other thief, it seems you will be tried. I only wish it was a lesser thing that was taken, for we have seen the result of such deeds by the Dwemer.

I pray you a merciful and yet just trial.

Truly,
Girai Harkaanius

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Nigedo]
      #2285540 - 02/26/04 08:04 AM

Come, little pets, shave me to the bones. Sit on the mercy seat and render unto me a world picture. Build me a cage from your dead fathers. Ignore that ache behind the eye of recognition that simply cannot be some ancient advance on your cave mothers now sown some three thousand years hence. Or can it... you, all my daring fruit? Lion, choke not on the newborn sun. He was so young the day he drew you out.

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/27/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Vehk]
      #2285570 - 02/26/04 08:20 AM

Vehk,

We recognize your guilt, but like any other mortal before you, no matter how far away the sin, you must be held accountable. Be an example to your struggling people and be tried. Your people still have much faith in you as you have seen here among the scholars. Your crimes are widely known, I beg you for the sake of your people and for the sake of yourself, submit to the law. You spent much time enforcing the law while you possessed the throne of your people, now is your time to submit to the greater law which you upheld.

For the sake of all step down from your high position and be treated as any other mortal. This is the god your people worshipped, one who came to their level. Do it again to truly show your repentence.

Girai Harkaanius

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

Reged: 10/09/02
Posts: 2660
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2285621 - 02/26/04 08:57 AM

Ho, ho, ho, who's this "we", Girai? Are you sovereign of some far state now? And you speak of his guilt before the trial begins.

Among my people, we have no such idiotic idea as that of trying a creature among people who know nothing of his deeds. We are judged by those who know us, and can swear oaths to stand by us. But I understand that the Cyrodiils have blinded themselves in homage to the god of logic. Convict yourself of impartiality if you will; I will stand with my eyes open. Have we still no judge? Then let a solemn quorum of honest folk be found, if you can govern your lust for blood so far as to pretend to decency.

I observe some irregularities in the accusation. At the time of the alleged crimes, no Dark Brotherhood under that name existed. Nor was there an Emperor who ruled over the land of Resdaynia.

Last I heard, the worship of the pantheon of Alessia was a matter of conscience, not law. If we are to convict those who refuse the worship of the devourer of worlds, I must throw myself upon the mercy of the court.

And, lastly, where was the throne of the Nerevarine? Such a creature never had a throne. The Hortator Nerevar, while he lived, was called King. Is that who you mean?

It seems I have signed on for the defense, which is ironic. But though I have no love for Cyrodiils and their justice, still I have in my heart honor and truth. Convict Vivec and put him to shame, if he will stand for it. But before you murder him untried you will see me bleed.





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tegger
Creepy ShadowLady

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 15535
Loc: United States
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2285623 - 02/26/04 09:01 AM

Quote:

We recognize your guilt, but like any other mortal before you, no matter how far away the sin, you must be held accountable. Be an example to your struggling people and be tried.




Sounds like he's already been tried and convicted by many here. It seems to me there would be very little point in holding a court trial after all this time... A trial isn't necessary in order to either mourn lost innocence or gloat over it. As for Vehk being held accountable, the "struggling people" don't seem to wish for it. That particular thirst seems to remain in the throats of certain scholars and would-be Nerevarines.

--------------------
Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(



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Striker
Disciple

Reged: 09/28/00
Posts: 1501
Loc: South Australia, Australia
Re: Your First Witness [Re: tegger]
      #2285651 - 02/26/04 09:16 AM

But what will this achieve? Has not Vehk been stripped of his stolen 'Godhood'? Is it not punishment enough being plunged back to the mortal realm after experiencing the glory of the (secret) tower? Realise this: what the triune may or may not have done is irrelevant. The ultimate sacrifice of his 'divinity' is surely payment enough - especially since it was a willing act to help save not only the Dunmer, but all of Tamriel. Does he not deserve our sympathy rather than our scorn? We cannot hope to see the bigger picture in what has and what will be. Do not let your petty selfishness remove Mystery from Nirn.

Stri'Ker,
Khajiit Scholar

--------------------
Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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B
Disciple

Reged: 11/10/01
Posts: 1872
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Striker]
      #2286003 - 02/26/04 01:54 PM

Ah, yes, I find all of this mildly entertaining, but I must agree with Stri'Ker on this one. What do you hope to achieve by putting this mer on trial? Surely, there are better ways for his Secrets to spill out upon the floor. If some have their way, the floor will be covered in blood not Secrets.

In this case, guilt and innocence are so subjective. I certainly am not qualified to pass judgment. Whether he committed these so-called "crimes" or not is of no concern to me.

But what do I know? I am not a Warrior-Poet. I find Vehk’s words enlightening at times, but Vehk’s Endeavor is not my Endeavor. I am merely a collector. A collector of trinkets, stories, and spells--perhaps more, at times. But for now, I simply gather what I can and share what I find.

I must go. Before I leave, though, I will give you this:
    I have seen the World, and the World is cracking. Some of us walk around on the egg shells, others try to pin blame on those who broke It, and still others try to glue the pieces back together. All to no avail! A Change is upon us. A Change that will sweep across the Mundus. We must be prepared for that time.

~B

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer

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Aquiantus
Adept

Reged: 08/29/03
Posts: 338
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Striker]
      #2286011 - 02/26/04 01:59 PM

Order in the Court! lol j/k

Seriously though, I think that there is an Armistice between Tiber Septim and Vivec on his right to still be worshiped by his people. In this agreement the Emporer gives the right for Morrowind Citizens to still worship the Tribunal as Gods. I have never seen this document, and I believe it was a treaty that was sorta unpublicized. But if its good enough for Tiber, it should be good enough for anyone else in the Empire. You can read more about it here.

--------------------
Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu - screen shots
Dwemer Links
Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
Member of Team Pheonix

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Xanathar
Disciple

Reged: 05/31/00
Posts: 1020
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Aquiantus]
      #2286060 - 02/26/04 02:33 PM

* The librarian just stands there doing nothing and looks confusing hearing Vehk's words and other accusing people. He tries to speak but in the end he chooses not to and resume standing like the rest of Vvardenfell inhabitants *

--------------------
~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild

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TSBasilisk
Diviner

Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 2847
Loc: Durango, CO
Re: Your First Witness [Re: Xanathar]
      #2286442 - 02/26/04 05:35 PM

None here can successfully judge Vivec. All the directly accusing accounts come from outdated sources that could easily have changed in the course of three and a half millenia. Has anyone here ever played Messengar? It is the same. The message may have been corrupted, and thus is inadmissable.

The only other accounts left to us are those straight from Vivec, Dagoth Ur, and indirect accounts from Azura and Almalexia. All four seem to be of the same mind: Nerevar did not die before the final confrontation with Dagoth Ur, and everything after that point was a blur.

If this is a trial by jury, the jury must see that there is absolutely no viable evidence against Vivec; all facts side with him.

--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild

Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: General_Crespin]
      #2286615 - 02/26/04 06:43 PM

Quote:

I'm willing to serve as a member of the jury; I've not yet completely studied enough of Vivec to know whether he is in the right, or in the wrong.



Truly it is fitting that a self-professed scholar of the Mad God should see order and logic in this procession. What a merry dance.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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mafafu
Diviner

Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 2246
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Nigedo]
      #2286682 - 02/26/04 07:18 PM

I see myself in no way qualified to judge Vivec.

By the way, does Morrowind or the Empire have any sort of Statute of Limitations? Seems to me like that might be a factor for something that happened so long in the past. Not even considering what he's done in the interim for Morrowind, I think it has been too long to judge him for any crimes he may have committed at Red Mountain.

Is it illegal to tap the Heart of Lorkhan? Did the Tribunal really kill Nerevar? What's the punishment for oath breaking? Can any of those possible crimes still be tried? Can you really find evidence for a murder that may have happened 3500 years ago?

And really, I think they've been punished enough. Sotha Sil and Almalexia are dead. Vivec seems to be suffering from a bit of ennui after all these years, and, according to his dialog, doesn't even seem to care if the Nerevarine kills him.

And if Vivec is judged by his peers, just who would that be? Regardless of anyone's position on Vivec's divinity, you have to admit that he's not your everyday mortal. Methinks that you couldn't find a jury of peers for Vivec in all of Mundus; at least not without going to Oblivion or to a spoke-plane. Of course, stripped of his 'divinity', Vivec may find peers in the likes of Divayth Fyr, Baladas Demnevanni, Loremaster Celarus, and possibly the Nerevarine.

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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters

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TSBasilisk
Diviner

Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 2847
Loc: Durango, CO
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: mafafu]
      #2286777 - 02/26/04 07:49 PM

There can be no jury of peers. Only the Tribunal exists at their level. Other beings either exist below or above them. Possibly Divayth Fyr and Yagrum Bagarn could testify, but they are probably prejudiced.

--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild

Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft

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General_Crespin
Adept

Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Nigedo]
      #2286785 - 02/26/04 07:52 PM

Quote:

Truly it is fitting that a self-professed scholar of the Mad God should see order and logic in this procession. What a merry dance.




A scholar of Sheogorath may be a jester in the Emperor's court.

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"The past is but the beginning of a beginning, and all that is and has been is but the twilight of the dawn."

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Dracodrakonis
Curate

Reged: 07/12/02
Posts: 713
Loc: Gone
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2286787 - 02/26/04 07:53 PM

Quote:



I acuse the Tribunal of the murder of Nerevar and usurpation of power by illegal means and without a contract with the Dark Brotherhood.




This is technicly possible, but to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt would be a formidable task. Most, if not all, Key witnesses are long since dead. The first order of business is proving that there was even a murder in the first place.

Quote:

I acuse the Tribunal of retaining and hiding a valuable and very powerful magic artifact called the heart of lhorkan and use it for his own needs without first consulting the Emperor. Considering the fact that the Tribunal has put in danger the entire world of Nirn and created that abomination Dagoth Uhr and the Corprus plage. These is very serious indeed.




Quote:

I acuse the Tribunal of falsely claming to be Gods without the aprovation or intervention of the 8 divinities. Tribunal godhood is an insult and mockery to the gods and corrupts people faith in the eight divinities.




Quote:

I acuse the Tribunal, with his Godhood claims to conspire and try to weaken the power of the emperor, just like they tried to usurp the throne of the Nerevarine and succeced.





Theese charge's are mostly rendered invalid by terms of the Armistace Agreement, you may wish to review the agreement, in order, before submitting charges. In any envent your trying to assign imperial authority to what had happened before Morrowind was even a part of the Empire.

Sorry for being the "Devils Advocate", but if you want any assemblence of legitamacy your going to have to be quite thorough, very specific, and extreamly careful in the wording of your charges and in the basis of the charges.


EDIT: It just occured to me "Devils Advocate" heh. This is Post number 666 for me, mere coincidence I assure you. But weird none-the-less

Edited by Dracodrakonis (02/27/04 03:31 AM)

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/27/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: mafafu]
      #2287255 - 02/26/04 10:35 PM

You all make good points, honestly I got a bit ahead of myself. I believe this entire thing just came out of a desire to simply know the truth.

Vehk, people have been going back and forth for who knows how long trying to figure out your motivations behind the Sermons, whether you helped slay Nerevar, and many other questions. You speak of guilt for your actions, but lash out at people simply wondering (rather boldly I'll admit) what those actions were. If you would take responsibility and answer these questions, then all could be resolved. Simply speak the truth, and we will go our ways.

I'm not sure if you will respond to this Master Vehk, but it had to be asked. If you do not want a foolish throng banging on your door, then take away their reason to do it.

Respectfully,
Girai Harkaanius

--------------------
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Allerleirauh
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2287844 - 02/27/04 01:43 AM

Is that all? You lot remind me of cliff racers harrying a dragon. It has but to draw breath, and they scatter.

Great and gracious Lord, I have this instant understood why you came here. (See, Nords do think, if slowly!) The time is coming; it seems the time is not yet.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2287868 - 02/27/04 01:48 AM

But Girai, you forget that few will accept such answers. Unless Vehk announces his guilt, the answer will not be satisfactoy. If he were to stand up and say "I did not kill Nerevar", doubters would claim he lied. If he were to stand up and say "I killed Nerevar", he would be torn apart instantly. This is a clear case of d@mned if he does and d@mned if he doesn't.

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zingbat
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2287894 - 02/27/04 01:54 AM

Citizens of the Empire, i represent a group of people who want to remain anonymous. I have mouths to feed and my position in the Imperial court is crytical. My accusations could be ignored if it was not for the pressure for them to go forward. So this judgement must be carried. With or without the Tribunal a statement must be made to the people.

Before i present the accusations again, there some things that must be clarified. First if there is no judge and no advocate to acuse the Tribunal then the mob will have to do. If there is an Imperial officer present he may take the rule of jury and judge. I cannot participate because i am making the accusations.

This is not the judgment of the Cyrodills or the Empire. This is not the judgement of Imperial law itself. This is the judgement of the Tribunal against the accusations that were placed against them. The outcome of this judgement is what this improvised Tribunal will do and its only purpose is to serve justice itself without favors.

If the mob decides with their heart then justice will not be served. Mercy is for the weak, mercy brings corruption and decline of valors. The Empire will decline and the world will be a dark place to live on. Justice should be applyied with whatever facts we know because grave acts have been commited and we know who did them.

I place my accusations again and ask for you to judge by actual Imperial and to take in consideration the changes that happened in the last days of the Tribunal.

First Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of the murder of Nerevar and usurpation of power by illegal, and most grave of all, to be unetical and immoral. By this i mean one of these: without the participation of the Morag Tong or the Dark Brotherhood, without first establishing alliances with the major rulers. In other words a cruel, savage murder, without any humanity or honor.

What is your veredict for this accusation ?

Second Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of retaining and hiding a valuable and very powerful magic artifact called the heart of lhorkan and use it for his own needs without first consulting the Emperor and the official organizations for regulating the use and discovery of new magical artifacs.

What is your veredict for this accusation ?

Third Accusation:

I accuse the Tribunal has put in danger the entire world of Nirn and created that abomination Dagoth Uhr and the Corprus plage. Of not informing the Empire of its consequences to full extent, so that the proper actions could be taken by Imperial authority to correct the mistakes.

What is your veredict for this accusation ?

Fourth Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of falsely claming to be Gods without the aprovation or intervention of the 8 divinities and their highest hierarchy of priests. I contest the decision of the Emperor at that time and ask for it to be revised because it was only possible by the use of dark magics against his venerable person.

What is your veredict for this accusation ?

Fifth Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal, with his Godhood claims to conspire and try to weaken the power of the emperor with inflamatory and anty-impireal messages inside the sermons.

What is your veredict for this accusation ?

Please whenever you make a stamenent fundament your veredicts with the proper sources and certified documents and dates from the Imperial Library historical records.


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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2287901 - 02/27/04 01:55 AM

He is obviously not guilty on all things suggested, but I believe if he simply stated what he is guilty of and what he isn't, people would hold him in higher esteem.

Even if he did kill Nerevar, I would not be one to condemn him. For that matter, I doubt anyone would. It has been suspected and believed on various levels by many in the past, and I suspect that if admitted the reaction would be merciful.

--------------------
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Vehk
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Proceed [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2287913 - 02/27/04 01:57 AM

Dumb, deaf dreamers,

You struggle to make the idea of my trial conform to your standards. To this, I refuse. But to swim in the new phlogiston, I will submit myself to a challenge of accountability—

--under Dunmeri rules.

What is required is a Tribunal, silly Incarnates, which accuses me of crime or crimes, and to which my final judgment is foregone unless I save myself. And a High Council to sway or solidify their position, or to generally throw stones and verses. And eye-witnesses, whose presence has taken me awhile to…secure.

And since Vehk and Vehk will not give ground on his soul to any but his equals, I appoint my own Tribunal to charge me. And I command them to do their best to damn me, even if it tugs at their conscience. Thus do I appoint to mythic status:

Mercy- Allerleirauh, my sweet Nord, so ironic that my heart sits at the feet of the daughter of CHEMUA, YSMIR, HOAG. Do your best, Mother.

Mystery- Hasphat Antabolis, Dwemer-infested and confused, so fitting to sit in my brother’s seat, what shall you bring to this?

And Mastery- my little Nigedo whirling, I expect the deepest strokes from you. Enigma, you’ve become Enemy. Wrest the right to Teach from me, or I will have Kha-bul-Nuit vomit on your mind.

Thence does this Tribunal charge me and hold me to debate and parley, and against every charge they bring I shall either win through my proofs or eat the seven swords.

The High Council shall be the rest of you unwashed masses, representatives from the world’s five quarters. Here, I give you a razored stone. The first is free.

And one last solemn oath—I will bring the only eye-witnesses that matter, channeling their voice-deeds by way of the Provisional House.

Expect Nerevar, Dagoth-Ur, and my lover-liar Alandro Sul.

Zingbat: rude talker, I have appointed my birds. Choke on them.


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TSBasilisk
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2287994 - 02/27/04 02:20 AM

Quote:

First Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of the murder of Nerevar and usurpation of power by illegal, and most grave of all, to be unetical and immoral. By this i mean one of these: without the participation of the Morag Tong or the Dark Brotherhood, without first establishing alliances with the major rulers. In other words a cruel, savage murder, without any humanity or honor.




No evidence can be found for either defense or presecution. No solid evidence exists save for the sources I have mentioned before, and the most reliable of those indicate innocence.

Quote:

Second Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of retaining and hiding a valuable and very powerful magic artifact called the heart of lhorkan and use it for his own needs without first consulting the Emperor and the official organizations for regulating the use and discovery of new magical artifacs.




The Heart of Lorkhan is not meant for use by mortals. Look at what happened to the Tribunal and House Dagoth. Unbridled power was once given to Tiber in the form of Numidium, and he used it to crush all opposition. What would have happened had the Tribunal given the Empire not only Numidium, but also the Heart of Lorkhan? With a fully powered Numidium, what destruction would have ravaged the Mortal Plane. Azura herself pleaded with Nerevar to prevent the creation of Numidium. Would you suggest we ignore the harsh lessons Nerevar, Dumac, and the Dwemer died learning? Men are weak, as are mer. The Tribunal may not be the best keepers, but they have already been corrupted, and have proven they will use their powers mainly for good, where as Tiber destroyed Mournhold and other places to gain his dominion.

Quote:

Third Accusation:

I accuse the Tribunal has put in danger the entire world of Nirn and created that abomination Dagoth Uhr and the Corprus plage. Of not informing the Empire of its consequences to full extent, so that the proper actions could be taken by Imperial authority to correct the mistakes.




On this, I can hardly disagree. In truth, they are guilty of this, for they did indeed endanger all of Mundus with their behavior. But perhaps they still feared what the Empire might use the Heart of Lorkhan for should they gain access to it. And it may have already been too late to bring in aid by the time the power of House Dagoth was fully realized.

Quote:

Fourth Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of falsely claming to be Gods without the aprovation or intervention of the 8 divinities and their highest hierarchy of priests. I contest the decision of the Emperor at that time and ask for it to be revised because it was only possible by the use of dark magics against his venerable person.




Unless you can convince Uriel himself to revise the Armistice, this accustation has no founding in legal grounds. And there is also a chance that the revisions might very well lead to the secession of Morrowind, and your accusations would be pointless as they now accused the highest power of a foreign country.

Quote:

Fifth Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal, with his Godhood claims to conspire and try to weaken the power of the emperor with inflamatory and anty-impireal messages inside the sermons.




Perhaps. But Vivec himself has claimed that he believes that the Dunmer will, in time, integrate anyway, and he believes that best.

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Nigedo
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Re: Proceed [Re: Vehk]
      #2288012 - 02/27/04 02:25 AM

Very well then.

The unmixed conflict path has only deep strokes to display, but better that I take from your own right hand the means to win against you.

--------------------
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zingbat
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Re: Proceed [Re: Vehk]
      #2288033 - 02/27/04 02:31 AM

LOL we all posted at the same time. See my latest post. Now back to roleplaying.

Vhek or Vivec i will not even demand for you to prove your identity. I did what i was suposed to do and from politician to politician i think we understand each other. No need to pretend this is nothing more than the old game of politics. I dont care who you decide to take your defense and in what terms. This will be a mob judgement, no more no less. So when the mob finnaly mades the final veredict my task will be done.

However Vhek, i ask of you, if you decide to bring fort and confess other crimes to put a rest to your own consciense, do so and be in peace. The ones who cover my tracks would be pleased with that.


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Allerleirauh
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Re: Proceed [Re: Nigedo]
      #2288063 - 02/27/04 02:42 AM

Lord, you never had a less willing persecutor. All who have called me Mother before you are dead... the omens are ill. But very well.

Let the sky bear witness that this child of the far north stands ready; if I be found false, may the earth swallow me up.

I will consider, and return.

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Proceed [Re: Vehk]
      #2288219 - 02/27/04 03:24 AM

Master Vehk,

My voice has been lifted up many times against you in the past, but now I see my folly. You have gained a new level of respect from me, and I will enjoy speaking further in this proceeding. By Anu's aspect Stendarr, I pray the mercy and wisdom of the Divine will bless this trial.

And as a response to you Master Vehk, Anu will never change.

Girai Harkaanius

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Helton
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Re: Proceed [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2288284 - 02/27/04 03:51 AM

*Watches the crowd through a viewing spell* Oh for the love of Akatosh! Will they be trying my Telvanni peers next? "You stole three thousand years of life!" Would they speak such words to Master Fyr? Would they dare? Vehk allowing these outbursts proves his own weakness! Bloody drama queens. *Returns to his Dwemer studies*

--------------------
"Once all the walls are torn down, and the barriers broken, who will you be? Where will you stand? Will you find yourself empty, having only defined yourself through others? Or will you be your own person, and stand tall in your own magnificence? That, my friends, is the difference between heaven and hell; it is known as 'identity'." - Anonymous

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Ratwar
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2288307 - 02/27/04 04:03 AM

Quote:

First Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of the murder of Nerevar and usurpation of power by illegal, and most grave of all, to be unetical and immoral. By this i mean one of these: without the participation of the Morag Tong or the Dark Brotherhood, without first establishing alliances with the major rulers. In other words a cruel, savage murder, without any humanity or honor.




There is no hard evidence that Vivec killed Nerevar. The only illegal thing for gaining power has already been punished by the Azura.
Quote:


Second Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of retaining and hiding a valuable and very powerful magic artifact called the heart of lhorkan and use it for his own needs without first consulting the Emperor and the official organizations for regulating the use and discovery of new magical artifacs.




At the time of the heart's discovery Morrowind were not under the rule of the Emperor. So they didn't need to tell him.
Quote:


Third Accusation:

I accuse the Tribunal has put in danger the entire world of Nirn and created that abomination Dagoth Uhr and the Corprus plage. Of not informing the Empire of its consequences to full extent, so that the proper actions could be taken by Imperial authority to correct the mistakes.




The is no evidence to suggest that the Tribunal created Dagoth Ur. The only thing they could possible be held accountable in that respect is for not destroying the heart, which the Imperials wouldn't have done either.
Quote:


Fourth Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal of falsely claming to be Gods without the aprovation or intervention of the 8 divinities and their highest hierarchy of priests. I contest the decision of the Emperor at that time and ask for it to be revised because it was only possible by the use of dark magics against his venerable person.




Armistice
Quote:


Fifth Accusation:

I acuse the Tribunal, with his Godhood claims to conspire and try to weaken the power of the emperor with inflamatory and anty-impireal messages inside the sermons.




I'm with TSBasilisk on this one.

--------------------
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ajax34i
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Ratwar]
      #2288863 - 02/27/04 07:49 AM

I'm sorry, but this will be a discussion, rather than a trial, unless you all follow the prescribed formula of calling witnesses to the stand and all.

I.E. No posting unless the prosecutor or the defender calls you to, and the judge accepts.

And Vehk, shut up until called to stand.

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Proceed [Re: Vehk]
      #2288870 - 02/27/04 07:52 AM

Gentlemen of the court,

I believe this entire trial mainly comes down to two things: the Tribunal's use of the Heart and their alleged murder of Nerevar. First of all I will address their use of the Heart.

Vehk has been stated as a participant in the use of the Heart by many sources, all of them well known, so I will not post them here. The use of the Heart has resulted in incredible conflict in the past, from the Battle of Red Mountain, to the recent Sixth House/Nerevarine incident, to even the conflict in this very room. It has even resulted in the utter destruction of a race. Vehk's guilt is undoubtable, though I do not believe it is in our rights or power at this point to condemn him on this matter. Vivec has shown guilt and contrition in this matter, but beyond that, I believe this is a judgement that should be made by the Divine, not by mortals that probably would have done the same thing in such a case.

On the other hand, I have heard that there is no evidence to prove Vehk's involvement in Nerevar's death. I believed so as well. But today I have been studing more indepth the statements of Vehk, and came across this:

Quote:

...that drives seekers of arcane knowledge to pledge their scholarship to the Aetherius rather than dealing with the esoteric teachings of my murder-brother SEHT...




Vehk, your murder-brother SEHT? Did you mean something other than the obvious by this statement? Has SEHT (Sotha Sil) murdered anyone other than allegedly Nerevar? How did you know he murdered? This is not proof perhaps, but it does raise questions. This excerpt from your Book of Hours is startling. If you meant something else by this then tell me, for this has led my thoughts back to Alandro Sul. Was he correct in his statement?

A very startled Imperial

--------------------
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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: ajax34i]
      #2288874 - 02/27/04 07:55 AM

My apologies Ajax, I will post no more.

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Vehk
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2288943 - 02/27/04 08:32 AM

Nonsense. The High Council cackles as it will, according to the laws of the Trinimac-eater. The honored representative of House Haarkanius may bark, bark, bark.


And Ajax, the first one is free.

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Solin
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: ajax34i]
      #2289000 - 02/27/04 09:06 AM

Many pardons for interrupting the interlude, but I believe the Dunmeri trial Vehk has laid out will be as much trial as discussion. I for one would like to see as much of the debate, parley, stones, and verses as possible. Vehk has refused a "standard" trial. Unless you intend to hold this trial without the defendant and witnesses (again I would like to see what they have to say) I would suggest you leave some room open for the High Council (which pretty much everybody not specifically mentioned) and Vehk's appointed judges. This, however, will be a mess without some form of organization so perhaps to address this issue a separate room/thread for the High Council should be created. If I have read correctly, Vehk has offered the first move to the unwashed masses. Again apologies for the intrusion, I shall with draw until more sanity reigns. I am not one to dance (much) in a castle made of sand whilst thunder comes and goes.

--------------------
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Vehk
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Solin]
      #2289066 - 02/27/04 09:40 AM

Better.

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Vehk
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The Oils [Re: Solin]
      #2289078 - 02/27/04 09:46 AM

As lord of the middle air I bless these proceedings to earth and earth, where the meddlers take no stones except to blood, as blood IS blood, and to the cracking of bone, as bone IS bone, and so to crack and answer and fall before the one and one, I call you Dragon as brother and king, flame-faced, turgid, accounted, crowned in hours, see this as wanted and so to write, set letter, set in time, and I call you Wife, sister and queen, hole and throne, wet, spending, moan'ed before marriage, see this as wanted and so to wed, led-to-loved, set in never, GO DOWN AE ALTADOON DEN, for trailed it is in slime we make our babes and the walker heeds no mock of dirt, until you, until you, there, I call you there, I call you Proud One, brother-by-death, worker, admonisher of waiting ones, the takers of wage without, beaten, unmoved, willed to rise by morning, see this as wanted and so to build, bricked and mortared, set like walls, and there so set as hearth, by whose heat I call you Rain, maiden unmade, bled, untouched and so to red ever, unto the earth, as egg IS egg, see this as wanted, and so to shower, red unruined, set in wonder, BIRTH AE PADHOME, as I call you Wrapped In Rags as self and self, as handheld summer, grinding wise, all our chieftains turned to crops, RKHET the Taker now took, for this is wanted, set your seven swords, sensible if left for dead, SEE NOW GHARTOK AE SALOMET, so shall I call you Womb-Ridden, spoilt spiller, sister-whore, come and come, match black swallow of these, the running monies, whose vendors lay playing golden, star and city, all of one to your only bed, because this is wanted, IS want, and so to swell them, set and entered, SEHT AE DWEM, I call you Wounded as my war brother, speared and thrown down, STENDR, rebuilt like mercy, lake-faced and lamp'd, spoke in water, this is wanted, give it grace, set in stillborn heavens, AE, I call you Lock-step, math athlete, theorem-teethed biter, grand answer, stay skyward from your line, symbol-gutter, this is wanted, set sequence, may you trace it for them with string, grim engine JHNAL AE THE EARTH AM, through Eight I bless it EARTH AM AS EARTH AM



!



!



!

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Allerleirauh
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Let us Begin [Re: Vehk]
      #2289169 - 02/27/04 10:44 AM

I have read the words which the others here have spoken, and taken thought. I have little knowledge of procedure, and I would not act against the wishes of the other two members of this Tribunal, but it seems to me I know enough to begin.

If there has been a breach of Imperial law, this court is not the place to seek a remedy. Besides, I see no evidence of such a breach. The Armistice is no concern of ours; and many of these events occurred in a time when the land now called Morrowind owed no allegiance to the Empire.

These are matters of a higher law, which it may be even the gods cannot escape.

For a crime to have occurred, there must be a victim. I see three categories of victim, and so I propose to divide these crimes into three heads: crimes against Nerevar; against the gods and against Vivec's own soul; and crimes against the people of Morrowind. I propose to take each in turn, although in some places they overlap.

Vivec, you are accused, with the other two members of the Tribunal, Sotha Sil and Almalexia, of the murder of Indoril Nerevar, Hortator and your good and faithful lord. A murder most foul, considering that he was also Almalexia's husband and king.

About the murder this is said:

Quote:

Then Nerevar told his queen and generals all that had transpired under Red Mountain and how the Dwemer had used special tools to turn their people into immortals and of the wondrous power of the Heart of Lorkhan. The Tribunal decided that the Chimer should learn how to use this power so that Nerevar might claim Resdayn and the world for their people. Nerevar did not expect or want this, so he asked his queen and generals to help him summon Azura yet again for her guidance. But the Tribunal had become as greedy as Kagrenac upon hearing of the power of the Heart and they coveted it. They made ritual as if to summon Azura as Nerevar wanted but Almalexia used poisoned candles and Sotha Sil used poisoned robes and Vivec used poisoned invocations. Nerevar was murdered.





Afterwards, you broke your solemn oath to him, never to use the tools of Kagrenac.

You took to yourself Nerevar's wife and queen, Almalexia; in your writings you blackened his name, making it appear that you were wise and he foolish; and thus you poisoned the minds of your people against his return, foretold by Azura.

Of these crimes I accuse you; if anyone would say more, let them speak.

What say you, Vehk?


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Vehk
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2289201 - 02/27/04 11:04 AM

Mercy,

Pray let me put on my Water-Face. It won't take a day.

And, yes, meanwhile, let them speak.



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Vehk
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2289203 - 02/27/04 11:05 AM

Mercy,


Pray let me put on my Water-Face. It won't take a day.



And, yes, meanwhile, let them speak.

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Aquiantus
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2289431 - 02/27/04 01:43 PM

{off-topic}

Is disobeying the command of the Nerevar a crime? If so did they willingly disobey a direct command by their King.

In the Last Castle a General directly disobeyed his Commander and Chief and was sentenced according to the UCMJ.

In situations like this, only a Military Tribunal would be more accurate. It was a crime that was committed while in the military service of their King the Nerevar.

========================================================
The Punitive Articles under that situation would be

If being accused of using the Heart of Lorkhan for personal benefit.

Article 103 Captured or Abandoned Property - (claiming property from an enemy and using it for benefit or advantage directly or indirectly to himself or another).

If being accused of murder.

Article 118 Murder -

If being accused of Disobeying a Lawful Order.

Article 90 Assaulting or Willfully Disobeying Superior Officer - (Nerevar)

Article 94 Mutiny or Sedition - (with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority)

If being accused of hindering or falsifying information in an attempt to avoid punishments then.

Article 78 Accessory After the Fact - (Knowing that an offense punishable has been committed, receives, comforts, or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishments - The Triune had each others back and would personally see to assist each other in not being punished)

Article 107 False Statements -

If being accused of misconduct.

Article 133 Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman -

========================================================

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B
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I Throw Words [Re: Vehk]
      #2289434 - 02/27/04 01:44 PM

After much soul-searching, I have decided that I was fooling myself and others. These matters of Vehk ARE of concern to me. I seek to collect Answers, and perhaps, someday, those Answers will make a story that will be worthy of being placed in a Library.

I shall throw Words first:

    Using Sermon 29 as a guide, a message can be retrieved from within the 36 Lessons. The message reads, "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

Grab ahold of these Words as I throw them at your feet, Vehk. Please explain the message contained within your Sermons.

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Hasphat Antabolis
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Re: Proceed [Re: Vehk]
      #2289719 - 02/27/04 04:49 PM

Vehk, Thief, why do you drag me into your self-indulgent little drama? You know very well what I have always accused you of, but I still come here unwillingly, as I tire quickly of your bluster and misdirection, and I doubt you will abide by any judgment by this "Tribunal" or any other. Your boundless arrogance claims no peers for itself, no matter what you might say sweetly now to soothe the mob.

That I come at all is in service of history and the truth, two things that you undoubtedly know much of but share very little. And I hate a mob, even one baying for your blood.

I suppose I am intended as a prosecutor of sorts, but I decline that role (for now). l will clear you of the destruction of the Dwemer, at least. All accounts of Red Mountain agree that you were on the battlefield when the Dwemer vanished, not in the Heart-Chamber where the crucial deed was committed. By whom? Kagrenac? Nerevar? Dagoth Ur? It is not even clear that any crime was committed -- perhaps the Dwemer removed themselves to another world using the power of the Heart. Perhaps they were destroyed, by their own arrogance ... or by Nerevar. Why does he not stand here accused? Channel him, if you will, Vehk! I would love to hear his words (from your mouth).

I may return, I may not. This spectacle only feeds your ego, the center of events as always. You love to play the prophet, but I remember (as few seem to) that your proper title is General.

Edited by Hasphat Antabolis (02/27/04 04:56 PM)

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Striker
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Re: I Throw Words [Re: B]
      #2289765 - 02/27/04 05:10 PM

Indeed Master B. Other accounts of Nerevar's murder may be dismissed as being Ashlander propoganda. Vehk's own words hold the weight of the whole world, and I await his response with anticipation - as I'm sure other's do.

Stri'Ker,
Khajiit Scholar

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LDones
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Re: Proceed [Re: Hasphat Antabolis]
      #2289895 - 02/27/04 05:54 PM

I am but a humble scholar, and bear wintess to this strange development of accusation and confrontation with no small fascination. Lord Vivec, as ever is simultaneously blunt and elusive - and yet I cannot help but wonder why it is he has made his presence known here, legitimizing such politically arbitrary motions from Cyrodillic quarters. It would seem the Imperials fan the flames of unrest beneath Vivec’s paws, and not for the first time, but as ever, Vehk, you are an enigma.

Though Dunmer I may be, I am an outlander, born half a world away. My mother was a scholar and a seamstress, and my father a pitiable skooma trader - and though I lost myself in studies as a child, I often wondered, when confronted by the sight of Altmer and Dunmer alike: What manner of deed had led to the ashen skin and darkened eyes that I awoke behind each day. I am not ashamed, nor should any Dunmer be, but I wonder, Lord Vivec, I wonder…

There are no doubt countless like myself who ponder the mystery of Sermon 29’s hidden message, it’s seeming confession, but I would never have imagined until now that one would find the courage or foolishness to address it to you directly; and now that the deed is done, my hairs prickle like a rat’s in anticipation. Some primal indignation swells in my belly that I cannot name.

Members of a secret society that dwells beneath your island of Vvardenfell have told me that the Nerevarine, in conversation with them, had said that your words upon the question of Nerevar’s murder all those centuries ago were definitively: “We did not murder Nerevar.” And yet your own teachings say otherwise, in words that only the truest of your believers and the greatest of your enemies would find.

Though I am a student of your teachings, and of Dunmer and thus Chimer blood, I am not of your children, Vehk - I have neither right nor room to accuse you – but countless peoples beneath your hand feel strongly now that they do.

So what does this particular Tribunal look like from the Tower, O Vehk? From outside of time have you seen your people completing the journey you begun for them that day on Red Mountain?

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B
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Re: Proceed [Re: LDones]
      #2290040 - 02/27/04 06:39 PM

So you ask, am I courageous or foolish? To that I reply, I am both and neither. How about friend or foe? Again, my words are both and neither. Ultimately, I do not care whether Vehk committed any crimes or if he is held accountable for any actions. I merely wish to document that which has been hidden from our eyes. Perhaps Vehk had just cause, or Nerevar deserved his fate. I am no judge!

Forgive me. Perhaps my Altmer arrogance is showing through, but I assure you, I am not your typical "High Elf." No, I care not for Order and Pockets of Calm. My life is spent bathed in the glorious, ever-changing Mundus. In this instance, I seek to change the status quo--certainly not through thuggish killing and brutality. I leave that to the simpleminded Brotherhood and Morag Tong. I want to shed light in places that have not seen anything but darkness for years.

Again, forgive me. I do not wish to take the focus of this discussion away from the Tribunal and Vehk. They are the centerpieces, not me.

--------------------
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Vehk
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2290597 - 02/27/04 09:42 PM

As Vehk and Vehk I hereby answer, my right and my left, with black hands.



Vehk the mortal did murder the Hortator.




Vehk the God did not, and remains as written.




And yet these two are the same being. And yet are not, save for one red moment.



Know that with the Water-Face do I answer, and so cannot be made to lie.

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Allerleirauh
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Vehk]
      #2290611 - 02/27/04 09:50 PM

Well, Vehk. It seems we must punish the mortal, then.

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Vehk
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35 [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2290703 - 02/27/04 10:21 PM

Quote:

Well, Vehk. It seems we must punish the mortal, then.





Alas, Love, you cannot:


From Sermon Thirty-Five: "...that virility is dead, by which I mean at least replaced."

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Nigedo
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Vehk]
      #2290708 - 02/27/04 10:21 PM

It seems to me that Vehk the God has other deeds to answer for; the betrayal of the inheritance of Veloth and misdirection of the Chimeri Exodus.

When did Mephala grant his mantle to you false spirit and St. Veloth pass to your care the walking way of the Chimer?

But these questions will likely not satisfy the mass that desires less 'metaphysical' answers.

You are mortal now are you not? Or do you still retain some hidden vestige of godhood?

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Vehk]
      #2290712 - 02/27/04 10:22 PM

Vehk,

It would seem that you as a god has already been punished, for he no longer exists. Vehk the mortal's only true crime seems to have been the murder of Nerevar. Hence, with this confession, it would seem a large part of the trial is over already. The scholars will undoubtedly be content when more is revealed. Nonetheless, the trial must proceed for we still do not know the circumstances of the murder nor the punishment (if any). I do hope our Tribunal will take your confession into account when they are deciding your fate. You have taken responsibility for your actions (in a more unique way), and for that I pray that the court be merciful. What changes will this new revelation bring I wonder?

Girai Harkaanius
A nearly contented Imperial

--------------------
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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: 35 [Re: Vehk]
      #2290740 - 02/27/04 10:32 PM

Quote:

"...that virility is dead, by which I mean at least replaced."




Then what are you Master Vehk? Your godhood is dead, as is your mortality appearently. How then do you exist?

Quote:

But these questions will likely not satisfy the mass that desires less 'metaphysical' answers.




You already know why I do not seek such answers Nigedo, please refrain from condescending statements.

--------------------
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Nigedo
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Re: 35 [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2290785 - 02/27/04 10:43 PM

My comment was not intended to be read that way, Girai, nor was it directed at you exclusively. Rather, I am acknowledging the obvious truth that most onlookers, whom Vehk has appointed High Council, will not be satisfied with such arguments of blame.

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Vehk
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Fight to the last [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2290786 - 02/27/04 10:43 PM

Quote:

It seems to me that Vehk the God has other deeds to answer for; the betrayal of the inheritance of Veloth and misdirection of the Chimeri Exodus.






Proof before fiction, little Nigedo. Play by the rules.


Quote:

You are mortal now are you not? Or do you still retain some hidden vestige of godhood?





Perhaps...yes, perhaps I am mortal. Now. Yes.


...perhaps I am. Deep stroke indeed. Good.



But the mortal Vehk before this one is not the one who stands here now, for I am Remnant. And innocent of the charge you would bring onto the head of my former life.

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Nigedo
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Re: Fight to the last [Re: Vehk]
      #2290804 - 02/27/04 10:48 PM

Quote:

But the mortal Vehk before this one is not the one who stands here now, for I am Remnant. And innocent of the charge you would bring onto the head of my former life.



How so, dear Vehk?

You have the same affections as before, memories of your former lives as god and mortal.

Where now is the mortal spirit of General Vivec if not restored before us?

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Fight to the last [Re: Vehk]
      #2290826 - 02/27/04 10:54 PM

Vehk,

Your present mortal form may be indeed innocent, but that does not change the situation. Your first mortal form slew Nerevar in cold blood and stole the Heart. Your god form was a result of the latter deed. This god form seems to have usurped the quest of the Tower, but this is not my concern in the least. As for what you are right now, you are indeed a Remnant. A Remnant of a murderer. Your deed is far away and such pieces of you dwell very little in you indeed, but you are yet Vehk. Vehk the mortal slew Nerevar and became Vehk the god. Vehk the god in repentence for once being Vehk the mortal became Vehk the mortal, seperate from Vehk the first. And yet they are all still Vehk. Vehk in divine matters will be delt with by the Divine. Vehk in mortal matters should be delt with by the mortal.

--------------------
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Aquiantus
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2290837 - 02/27/04 10:55 PM

You should continue on with the trial. I'm curious to find out if this Heart corrupted Dagoth Ur, and all three Tribunals into insanity of power and against their wills to commit evil acts or was it a willfull act of sound mind to commit murder? Better yet, is Vehk the God competent to stand trial based on what we know the heart has done to the others? Would it be fair to dish out a punishment that is harsh because there was no mortal will strong enough to resist the Hearts corruption of mind and spirit? Is it not that some punishment be given aswell though?

Though Vehk the God is whom he is now, his past Vehk the Mortal did commit atrocities that did go unpunished. The most foulest of sins did Vehk the Mortal commit upon the Hortator and for what motivation? Vehk the God did throw himself at the mercy of his self appointed Tribunal, yet Vehk the God would not exist without Vehk the Mortal having done what he did or would he? Is this like Vehk the Mortal being the child but now that Vehk the God is the adult morally he now knows better? Or is it like Vehk the God existed before Vehk the Mortal and then the mortal did commit murder to steal Vehk the God into himself?

Was the murder commited alone? How was he murdered and where? Was it planned out? When did it take place? Was it in the middle of a great battle when he was struck down in the back with poisons? What happened to the Dwemer? Did they help plan in this murder? How did you know how to use this Heart? Did you watch the Dwemers make a mistake and figure out to do the opposite to become Vehk the God, yet the Hortator denied you use of it, so then it was decided to murder him?

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Fight to the last [Re: Nigedo]
      #2290840 - 02/27/04 10:56 PM

Nigedo, we agree again. What an odd fate.

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Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

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phil_t
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Re: Fight to the last [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2290883 - 02/27/04 11:08 PM

If i may intrude upon the proceedings, it seems that you cannot charge the Remnant of crimes of the past - the blood of those crimes are on other hands.

Vehk the Remnant is not the same as Vehk the mortal - that mortal self died as described in Sermon Sixteen, given up so that Vehk the God could live.

What remains is the shell of Vehk the God, bald and powerless, save only for the power of speech.

Phil

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Hasphat Antabolis
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Re: Fight to the last [Re: Nigedo]
      #2290894 - 02/27/04 11:12 PM

As usual, Vehk would like to evade responsibility using metaphysical mumbo-jumbo. He would like us to believe that his mortal self and his (self-proclaimed) god self are two different beings entirely. The mortal Remnant of a god is therefore not responsible for the doings of his mortal precursor. To this I say, humbug! Vehk is Vehk is Vehk. If you remember your former crimes, own up to them and be done with it.

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Allerleirauh
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Aquiantus]
      #2290926 - 02/27/04 11:20 PM

Vehk, speak, and answer Aquiantus.

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Nigedo
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Re: Fight to the last [Re: Hasphat Antabolis]
      #2290961 - 02/27/04 11:27 PM

Indeed.

In the day that you wrest the glory of your fore-image by the power of a dead god, I say you took upon yourself but the skin of your enemy.

And paraded yourself in these stolen clothes of godhood. Where was the death of Vivec in this? Was Vehk-god not a mere vehicle of longevity for the mortal?

I say also that the Council should be satisfied of the means of the murder of Saint Nerevar - so we shall separate accountability if it is needed to be separated.

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Allerleirauh
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Re: Fight to the last [Re: Nigedo]
      #2290991 - 02/27/04 11:35 PM

Vehk, what Hasphat Antabolis and Nigedo say seems right to me as well, and here is why: if Vehk were truly dead, then why linger among his own people for so long?

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Vehk
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we are not the same [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2291045 - 02/27/04 11:50 PM

Mercy and Mastery and Mystery. You cry for an Exactitude of the universe from me when its very Chancellor broke its astrolabe in half when I was born. You ghost-touch like the cousin-spirits that showed me the the face of the marriage of broken worlds, but refuse to speak what you see. You swear by the egg-layered universe but refuse to see beyond the if-then of my ancestors, not my ancestors. You hammer against the Cloven Duality as if it's one, then two, then one, all of a row. And to this I tell you in Truth: Red Mountain made me exist before I did.




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Allerleirauh
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Re: we are not the same [Re: Vehk]
      #2291062 - 02/27/04 11:56 PM

Is this your water face, Vehk? No riddles.

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Hasphat Antabolis
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Re: we are not the same [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2291074 - 02/28/04 12:01 AM

Ha! Asking Vehk to speak without riddles is like asking a snake to please stand up and walk, just this once.

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Dracodrakonis
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2291075 - 02/28/04 12:01 AM

Yes, Please do Answer.

How was Nerevar "Murdered". Do you speak in body or spirit. You speak with "black hands" so I will assume body for now. As to when it had to be after the Nervar's confrontation with Dagoth Ur unless you speak in the fractured time, being only a fragment of time myself I am only concerned with the single path of this fragment, I am aware of the others but they do not concern me. Yes, you murdered Nerevar, but did you murder his body, his oath, or his trust. I think all three are just and right accusations with the former two bearing a much greater weight and in truth would mean you murdered the people you love as well.

Then there is the matter of Almalexia and Sotha Sil in their part of this "Murder". I should say that they(the whole Tribunal) have as much responsibility to answer the charges as one, You can speak as Vehk or as the Tribunal of which you were a part and now are the only one remaining. Of the mortal then god and then mortal means as little to me as the fractured time or the time outside time, which all are the same but not.

The Dragon has spoken, I am the mouth of the Dragon. Time will speak all Truth in time.

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Vehk
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Aquiantus]
      #2291078 - 02/28/04 12:03 AM

Quote:

Or is it like Vehk the God existed before Vehk the Mortal and then the mortal did commit murder to steal Vehk the God into himself?


Is it very alike. And perhaps born of golden wisdom and powers that should have been forever unalike.

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Nigedo
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Re: we are not the same [Re: Vehk]
      #2291090 - 02/28/04 12:07 AM

Then let us delve deeper into the apparent mystery of your present mortality. From whence does it proceed? Does it have no past, no ancestor, no precedent?

Do you not walk Time's straight line with all mortals?

Then see what lies behind you, or dare you not look over your shoulder?

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Aion
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Vehk]
      #2291127 - 02/28/04 12:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Or is it like Vehk the God existed before Vehk the Mortal and then the mortal did commit murder to steal Vehk the God into himself?


Is it very alike. And perhaps born of golden wisdom and powers that should have been forever unalike.


No. Way.

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Vehk]
      #2291460 - 02/28/04 01:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Or is it like Vehk the God existed before Vehk the Mortal and then the mortal did commit murder to steal Vehk the God into himself?


Is it very alike. And perhaps born of golden wisdom and powers that should have been forever unalike.




Vehk, you speak madness. You simply will not confess your actions and accept their consequences. You create stories to further deceive to suit your own ends. Oh no, you have not changed from your previous nature. You are yet Vivec the god in mind. You confess your guilt and yet will not allow yourself to become mortal enough to accept mortal reward. All here can see your deceit, do not use grand words to cover it.

Take your medicine, Dear Vehk, and save yourself and all those present a grand headache. Vehk murdered, Vehk confessed, Vehk will not take responsibility, and Vehk will NEVER step down to his rightful level. Let your arrogance show the truth of your words. Truth of void, reeking of Padomay.

--------------------
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Allerleirauh
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Re: Let us Begin [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2291652 - 02/28/04 02:42 AM

We are straying rather far from the topic, I think. Not without cause...

Surely these are matters which can be spoken of in plain language. Tell us what happened.

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Vehk
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Re: we are not the same [Re: Nigedo]
      #2291665 - 02/28/04 02:49 AM

Quote:

Then let us delve deeper into the apparent mystery of your present mortality. From whence does it proceed? Does it have no past, no ancestor, no precedent?Do you not walk Time's straight line with all mortals?Then see what lies behind you, or dare you not look over your shoulder?


I will leave it to others to find where I have written all this before. But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be. The axis erupted. There was an exact cracking, an instant of pure Aurbis, his hands burnt black by that ever-nil of static change, and Vivec the god who had never been had always been. A whole universe swelled up to legitimize his throne... as the old universe, where Vehk the mortal still lapped up Godsblood, warped itself to accept its new equivalent. And like all things magical it simply could not happen, could not Be. Red Mountain was the intersection of the Is-Is Not as it was of old, its center point, and it did not hold. And so the Dragon, having broken, saw fit to heal, turning into the world you know. Except now Vivec the God was alive before his own birth, which had, in fact, really happened in the death of the last universe. Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is. And so that is why some semblance of my anguished personal reconciliation found its way into my own scripture. Why did I leave the Nerevarine two accounts of his death, one that I could have easily erased from the minds of my own people? Because he is Hortator, GHARTOK PADHOME AE ALTADOON DUNMERI, my lord and king in this world and the last, and as Vehk and Vehk I murdered him, then raised him, then taught to him to know, and so would I have it when he came to me at last that he decide. I give you this as Vivec.

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LDones
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Re: we are not the same [Re: Vehk]
      #2291718 - 02/28/04 03:05 AM

I believe that I understand. Vehk saw the erasure of Self-NotSelf in that moment in the Heart, and was as Mundus Oblivion and Beyond all as one. And when the moment became another moment in the slowed perceptions of mortal worlds, time had reformed around his shape as Vivec the god. As a scholar and mage, I understand this, and cannot believe (posturing of the ego or no) that the Vehk here today (mortal or no) is the same being that claimed the title of General so long ago.

I do not believe he can be convicted any more than Tiber Septim might still be convicted of the murder of Zurin Arctus. I might even conjecture to say that Nerevar was of him as Zurin was of Tiber, but I say so only from the conjecture of intuition.

If you would answer, Vehk, what of Sotha Sil, and Almalexia? I know you to be the first among them to touch the Heart of Lorkhan, I know it in my heart; but do you claim this murder by the once-born Vehk's hand alone or did Nerevar die also at the hands of the mortals who were stolen into Sotha Sil and Almalexia?

---Louis D'Onus

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Nigedo
Diviner

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Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: we are not the same [Re: Vehk]
      #2291741 - 02/28/04 03:11 AM

Well, well.

This was very close upon the heels of the Battle I will venture?

And did Mnemoli witness this Break, did Red Mountain erupt from the strain?

This, then, was the cause of Sun's Death I warrant.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Dracodrakonis
Curate

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Posts: 713
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Re: we are not the same [Re: Vehk]
      #2291755 - 02/28/04 03:14 AM

Translation: There was a Dragon Break at Red Mountain, something I have hinted at before even now.

Vehk and Vivec did not do this as they did many times. It was Broken before the Tribunal and Before Dagoth Ur, though the Tribunal did Shatter it. Things became as they were and as the Tribunal wanted them to be each to their own whim, but the Dragon can not permit itself to remain so and so healed itself as it could and as it did. There is more truth in words than has been spoken or read even by the master of the the Tri-angled truth.

The wound was deep and the scar still remains but in time even that will fade, such is the Dragon.

Now back to this fragment before we all fade back to the one path and are lost to it. For the One path is the only path, the rest are only dreams that will have to return to the one.

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

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for the record [Re: Vehk]
      #2291800 - 02/28/04 03:33 AM

In order that nothing may be lost, philt is appointed to record the minutes of these proceedings...

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Nigedo
Diviner

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Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: we are not the same [Re: Nigedo]
      #2291853 - 02/28/04 03:50 AM

I fear that my scholarly interest in these events has clouded my judgement.

I give way to Allerleirauh's excellent points below..




--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Edited by Nigedo (02/28/04 07:37 AM)

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

Reged: 10/09/02
Posts: 2660
Re: we are not the same [Re: Vehk]
      #2291861 - 02/28/04 03:54 AM

Very well. The past changes itself to suit you. Very neat. But I see a flaw in your account, Vehk; one you may not have noticed yourself.

Quote:

But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be.




The wish remains a part of you. Your intentions are constant, from the mortal form, through the form of the god, to the form of the remnant. My judgement is that Vehk the mortal is indeed the same being as Vehk the god, and Vehk the remnant. You became a god, as you have said, through your own will, and that will you have not abandoned.

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Swiftrider
Novice

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Posts: 49
Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: zingbat]
      #2291888 - 02/28/04 04:03 AM

Vivic be soul locked in my own Ebon Scimitar; Which I use too slay his own Minion with...As for Dagoth, Ly trapped burning in the Hellish Inferno he worship's for eternity!..Almalexia is no more,& Sotha Sil & Neravar's Sword is the Least of my worries...
Sincerly,Swiftrider...

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Vehk
Initiate

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Posts: 97
Re: we are not the same [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2292042 - 02/28/04 04:54 AM

So, Mercy, a Girl of White Glamour indeed. And a puzzlebox-logician at either side. Well, then, I'll tell you now as I told you then: I am a letter written in uncertainty and thus you cannot hold me. But you seem certain that the wish fulfilled is the same as the wishmaker. What says the Council?

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Helton
Curate

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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Swiftrider]
      #2292098 - 02/28/04 05:12 AM

And yet Vehk speaks here today? Wake up from your dream would-be Nerevarine.

Vehk you stand here, insisting that you are not the same as you were, as if you are ashamed at what you have done. You admit to have killed Nerevar to use the Heart and become a god. As a god you saved more Dunmeri lives than Nerevar could have EVER hoped to in his mortal life, you led the Dunmer into a relative golden age! Throughout Chimeri/Dunmeri history they have been taken advantage of by the so called 'gods' who were born into their positions, who earned nothing.

Through all points of view the ends have justified the means, if killing your General/King was a crime (I do not believe it to be) you have made up for it. The many are served by the interest of the individual. I do not understand why you hide behind a mask of lost-identity. Why? What are you ashamed of? Sorry for interrupting the court, but I do not understand why it is in session. Vehk is guilty of murder, he is also responsible for the thriving of a race, he is responsible for the very Empire that now judges him. I never was good at ending my rants, so I'll just stop here.

--------------------
"Once all the walls are torn down, and the barriers broken, who will you be? Where will you stand? Will you find yourself empty, having only defined yourself through others? Or will you be your own person, and stand tall in your own magnificence? That, my friends, is the difference between heaven and hell; it is known as 'identity'." - Anonymous

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Dracodrakonis
Curate

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Re: we are not the same [Re: Vehk]
      #2292437 - 02/28/04 07:11 AM

You were and are as you wanted to be, at least for a time. And as you did you have done in this fragment. The here and now is IS. As I said before the others do not concern me and should not be of concern, nor bear merrit, they lay in the realm with the death dream and will ultimately be absorbed by the one path.

I support and agree with Allerleirauh in her finding. You are the product of your actions and your desire. You may try to hide in and behind the fractured time, but those who seek shelter in the mouth of the Dragon should be warry of the consiquences.

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tegger
Creepy ShadowLady

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Posts: 15535
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Re: The judgement of Vivec [Re: Swiftrider]
      #2292530 - 02/28/04 07:31 AM

Quote:

Vivic be soul locked in my own Ebon Scimitar; Which I use too slay his own Minion with...As for Dagoth, Ly trapped burning in the Hellish Inferno he worship's for eternity!..Almalexia is no more,& Sotha Sil & Neravar's Sword is the Least of my worries...
Sincerly,Swiftrider...




Spectators,

You are welcome to watch these proceedings, and even to bring up salient points if you have them. However, please refrain from heckling the accused, on pain of Writs of Silence.

--------------------
Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(



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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: tegger]
      #2292779 - 02/28/04 09:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Vivic be soul locked in my own Ebon Scimitar; Which I use too slay his own Minion with...As for Dagoth, Ly trapped burning in the Hellish Inferno he worship's for eternity!..Almalexia is no more,& Sotha Sil & Neravar's Sword is the Least of my worries... Sincerly,Swiftrider...


Spectators,You are welcome to watch these proceedings, and even to bring up salient points if you have them. However, please refrain from heckling the accused, on pain of Writs of Silence.


On pain of more than that, dear tegger, if the magic hermaphrodite is given such straight lines as these. But the first is free.


Pray, throw another, my swift flirt. I am not so chained that I would not love to show you what my soul would do if locked to your "Ebon Scimitar".

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Striker
Disciple

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Posts: 1501
Loc: South Australia, Australia
Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Vehk]
      #2292795 - 02/28/04 09:22 AM

Even though Vehk speaks in riddles, do you not agree that the now Mortal Vehk is not the same as the first Mortal Vehk? Once the Tribunal used the tools on the Heart, Vehk can never forget, even now as a Mortal once again. Does this make him the same as he once was? Surely it does not. His memories of his time as a 'God' have forever changed him into the mortal you see before you. His physical appearance is the same, but his soul has forever been changed from what he once was. Surely he has learnt from his past and will not perform the same actions again, given the choice.

I believe that for this action he has been punished. I also believe that a high price has been paid - one which should not be added to further.

-Stri'Ker

--------------------
Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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Yeah
Curate

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Posts: 601
Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Striker]
      #2292830 - 02/28/04 09:48 AM

What high price would that be? He was born a mortal and he'll die a mortal. I would hardly call living life as you were meant to live it a punishment, much less one appropriate for murder.

There is also, of course, the way he dealt with the ashlanders. Why didn't you follow through with Nerevar's promise to allow them a place on the grand council, Vehk? Why did you alienate them so much from the other Dunmer?

And why did you kill Nerevar in the first place? Perhaps it is time for all of these questions to be answered. Or is it time to hear from Nerevar?

--------------------
Professor: The only thing I don't like about those governments is that they want to give all of our taxes away to the less-fortunate.

Fry: Yeah! The less-fortunate get all the breaks!

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Vehk
Initiate

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Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Yeah]
      #2292894 - 02/28/04 10:41 AM

Quote:

Or is it time to hear from Nerevar?


I can see that this court will not trust the words of Nerevar if they come from my own mouth, even if channeled. I therefore claim my right and tradition as Son of Mephala to open my twin gate, a source that none can deny. I motion for the Tribunal to summon Azura to these proceedings, to speak on the one, true Nerevar's behalf. What say you?

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

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Posts: 2660
Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Vehk]
      #2292901 - 02/28/04 10:46 AM

Thief, when cornered you show your true colors... I think you are stalling for time. Can you bring Nerevar before us or not?

My sources tell me that the summoning date for Azura is Hogithum, 21st First Seed, three weeks distant. And that we would need a Dunmer priest. Dunmer priests, I suppose, are in no short supply. But do you expect this court to wait so long? I suspect that you will quietly slip away, and we will never see Azura here...


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Vehk
Initiate

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Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2292940 - 02/28/04 11:07 AM

I swear on the first and last she will come if summoned on her proper day, three weeks hence, a loophole I have no control over. It surely is my right as the accused, sweet Mercy, to ask for this. After all, what have I to gain if I am guilty, save Azura's condemnation and therefore no choice but to face this court in full shame and punishment thereafter?

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

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Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Vehk]
      #2292947 - 02/28/04 11:12 AM

Yes, I suspect Azura is no friend of yours.

I would hear the opinion of the others of the Tribunal on this matter... shall we bind Vivec over on the matter of the murder of Nerevar until he can bring his witness?

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phil_t
Curate

Reged: 09/27/02
Posts: 422
Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2293451 - 02/28/04 03:39 PM

I will publish the first court report soonish in another thread, mebbe a little later if we are to recess.

One question: If most here do not trust Vehk, would they trust any Dunmer priest who channels Azura, for surely they must be from the Tribunal Temple??

Phil

--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*

*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

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LDones
Disciple

Reged: 10/10/02
Posts: 1040
Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: phil_t]
      #2293600 - 02/28/04 05:03 PM

If any soul at all is fit to judge Vehk then surely it is Nerevar - with Azura as his patron. Logic would dictate that the wisest course of action would be in seeking their council on the matter. For whatever my voice is worth on the matter I motion in favor of binding until the witnesses may be called.

I know Nigedo to be a student of Vehk's teachings, but I would trust him to find and judge a proper priest for a summoning of such import. I have seen him to be a fine mer, and would trust that he choose wisely despite his leanings in the matter.

If the Council believes he cannot, then certainly those present might allow Hasphat Antabolis to select a proper candidate.

I feel some deep rumbling beneath the toes of my feet at this motion...

--Louis D'Onus

--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles

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Xanathar
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Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: LDones]
      #2293660 - 02/28/04 05:28 PM

* the librarian steps forward and speaks *

I have doubt that Nerevar would show up; otherwise he has already done so during these 3000 years. No need that Nerevarine Prophecy or whatever prophesies... Sorry, I have tired for all the prophecies. First Nerevarine and then Bloodmoon…

I need to apologize first to you Master Vehk, but I really have doubt of your power "now", after the Nerevarine issue and Almalexia passing. There would be no divine power left for you to muster. I recall Almalexia asked the Nerevarine to start a dwemeri machine down in Bamz-Amscend just to bring forth the Ash Storm, which in my belief should be easy for her.

Or shall we bring also the bretony witchcraft here to help summon the daedra prince. Ah… that would be the decision of the council not me as merely a librarian and the collector. I have a feeling that Sheogorath is coming too, ah or he has already here? I can see his presence in the people gathered here.

Now I shall withdraw to my previous standing place.

* the librarian steps back and resume his standing in the previous place *


--------------------
~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild

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zingbat
Disciple

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Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: LDones]
      #2293681 - 02/28/04 05:39 PM

Has this Tribunal turned into the church of Vivec ? Mercy is the corruption of values, Mistery is the alienation of reality, and Mastery is the end. Vhek has chosen his mob well.

Every one is equal when looked through the eyes of justice. Justice is not a merchant square where crimes are sanctioned with pretensious good deeds. And how can a Tribunal of mortals decide about the godhood of another mortal if they do not have the authority for that. Tell us vhek how would you tell everyone how they would recognize you as a god ?

There is a precedent that can bring light to this matter. In the warp of the west the King of Worms as been successful where Vivecs Tribunal failed. Compare these events to the events of red mountain and look into the crimes of the Tribunal.

Vivec his no God neither any other menber of the Tribunal. They have not changed enough so that they can be above the law of man and mer. They used a powerfull artifact, a key that opens the doors to the Gods some say, but to the accounts of the common folks of Tamriel the Tribunal they just put in danger the lives of many and released a dangerous plague. Willingly or not they are to be punished for they greed for power and knowledge.


--------------------
Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi

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Ainoryl
Novice

Reged: 02/20/04
Posts: 29
Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: zingbat]
      #2294220 - 02/28/04 08:23 PM

Where have the common people of Tamriel stated that the Tribunal put their lives in danger? How did the Tribunal ever let loose a dangerous plague?

The tribunal have their failings. In light of recent events in morrowind, these failings have become startlingly apparent. But the 'common' people didn't worship them for thousands of years because they felt they were in danger. Vivec did many, many good and beneficial things for his people, and by nearly all accounts was heralded as a wonderous hero to be emulated by the common man. Dagoth Ur released plagues, and that was no fault of the tribunals. If anything, they constructed the ghostgate to contain these plagues.

This tribunal of 'judges' is a good thing. Comprised of some of the most knowledgable people in tamrielic lore that live. I urge all members of this high council to be patient, and hold your judgements until more of this trial has passed. There is much more to come, methinks. Patience.


--------------------
Ainoryl

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Aquiantus
Adept

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Posts: 338
Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: zingbat]
      #2294255 - 02/28/04 08:31 PM

Quote:

Willingly or not they are to be punished for they greed for power and knowledge.




Under which authority? The Tribunal Vehk has appointed or the secret group that you represent? You seem to imply that you are from the Imperial court trying to have a trial over Vehk the Mortal. But if the Imperial group was your ground then you would have not said that you represent a group that wishes to remain anonymous, then speak as though you are from the Imperial courts. If you were truely from the Imperial courts you would have not spoken blasphemy that Tiber Septim was mentally controlled by 'dark magics' and forced to sign the Treaty of the Armistice.

Perhaps more then the mere presence of one of the 4 Houses of Troubles has been at work in this drama of Mortals and weakened Gods who did or do insane acts.


--------------------
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Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
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Dracodrakonis
Curate

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Recess [Re: Aquiantus]
      #2294502 - 02/28/04 09:27 PM

Whlie we wait for the next witness........

Would anyone care to do the timeline check for the Dragon Break(s). I think you will find it very interesting. There are many unspoken questions to find.
1E668-1E700 Red Mountain 1E1200-2208 The Dragon Break
Though seemingly unrelated to this "Trial" it does set the tone for what the 'true crime' is.

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Nazz
Disciple

Reged: 02/21/02
Posts: 1399
Loc: Almalexia
Re: Recess [Re: Dracodrakonis]
      #2294871 - 02/28/04 11:10 PM

Perhaps I have unlearned to much in my studies under the mystic sun, but I fail to see how Nerevar or Azura speaking on his behalf could ever be impartial and fair in their telling of the events of his death.

Though I must say I would enjoy to hear her backwards words, so I would urge the tribunal to allow this session to wait until she can be brought before us.

--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: an ebony scimitar, how lovely [Re: Vehk]
      #2294973 - 02/28/04 11:45 PM

Azura? A greater liar and corrupter than our good Vehk, for mortals are made from the essence of both Padomay and Anu in their origin, whereas Azura is made directly from Padomay, even though she be changed by Anu. She may speak against Vehk's ramble as of late, but I would not trust her to speak truthfully. Nonetheless, let her be summoned, but keep a watch so that we are not led off on a fool's path such as the Chimer/Dunmer were.

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Yeah
Curate

Reged: 10/17/02
Posts: 601
Re: Recess [Re: Nazz]
      #2295606 - 02/29/04 02:48 AM

Quote:

Perhaps I have unlearned to much in my studies under the mystic sun, but I fail to see how Nerevar or Azura speaking on his behalf could ever be impartial and fair in their telling of the events of his death.




They wouldn't be impartial by any stretch, which is exactly why hearing from them is important. Their views (at least what I expect them to be) will be so opposite to Vehk's and so biased against him that we will be able to see the compromise of their arguement as the truth, or as close to the truth as we can get when surrouned by such conflicting accounts.

But if you cannot channel Azura or Nerevar at this time, wouldn't one of his firm supporters suffice? If you still can, I ask you to let Alandro Sul speak from you until Nerevar or Azura are available.

*goes and stands by the librarian awaiting a reply*

--------------------
Professor: The only thing I don't like about those governments is that they want to give all of our taxes away to the less-fortunate.

Fry: Yeah! The less-fortunate get all the breaks!

Edited by Yeah (02/29/04 02:50 AM)

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Seeking the truth [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2296901 - 02/29/04 10:03 AM

Quote:

I would hear the opinion of the others of the Tribunal on this matter... shall we bind Vivec over on the matter of the murder of Nerevar until he can bring his witness?



I have retreated and considered this matter and I will answer you in just a moment, friend Allerleirauh.

However, there are stirrings here that must be addressed for the sake of shame.

Vivec has freely and pro-actively chosen to submit himself to a trial of accountability by those that he has deemed his peers. I perceive this to be the brave and honourable act of one who wrestles to be at last free of condemnation both within and without.

I have had no love for the Tribunal Temple nor for their blind stewardship of Morrowind's gullible masses, but I take Vivec's former divinity as obvious fact.

I also do not doubt his sincere and earnest desire to allow truth to prevail for redemption's sake; tempered, of course, by a good and natural measure of the common mortal's desire for self-vindication.

If this truth will condemn him or no, it is in our hands, not Vehk's, and I intend to ensure that proper time and well-ordered judgement alone will tell.

There is no place here for pre-judgement nor dismissal of the obvious, only for bold awareness of the true color of these proceedings. I urge this sober mind in all here present and those that would not, I urge them to withdraw.


It is folly to debate the value of Azura's words, or any other's, before they have been spoken. Yet, I will say this. Like all et'Ada, Azura dwells in the god place with respect to Time and she is not contrained by the straight line of mortal experience.

I agree that it is time that we heard other voices. I say that we should now wait and keep patience in good trust until we can hear from Azura.

If the Tribunal are in agreement on this, then we have abundant time and means to make all necessary arrangements ourselves, and nothing more need be required from Vehk in the meantime.

What says Antabolis?

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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TSBasilisk
Diviner

Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 2847
Loc: Durango, CO
Back to the trial [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2296981 - 02/29/04 10:33 AM

Quote:

Azura? A greater liar and corrupter than our good Vehk, for mortals are made from the essence of both Padomay and Anu in their origin, whereas Azura is made directly from Padomay, even though she be changed by Anu.




What have we here? Complete irony! Anu can change Padomay? Stasis can change Change? Girai, your words are confused. Azura is both Anu and Padomay. Padomay has no essence, it is simply a force that comes and goes. Azura is made of Anu, but Padomay changed her part of Anu. She is, perhaps, the closest of the Daedra to the Aedra. If you doubt her because she is made of Padomay, you doubt all of existence, because only Anu is free of Padomay, and Anu is too large for us to comprehend.

--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild

Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft

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Ayem
Layman

Reged: 02/29/04
Posts: 3
Re: Seeking the truth [Re: Nigedo]
      #2298440 - 02/29/04 08:51 PM

What's this? He who holds the moon on his leash, on trial? How delicious. If you seek a quicker resolution, seek out the psijics and enter their stone-hole-stone. My lover-dead showed the way.

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B
Disciple

Reged: 11/10/01
Posts: 1872
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
The Dreaming Cavern [Re: Ayem]
      #2298501 - 02/29/04 09:06 PM

I have returned to bear witness to these strange proceedings, and I see a great deal has transpired since I was last in attendance.

My eyes do see the mentioning of the Dreaming Cavern. I must confess that I was entertaining that idea myself, but I was unsure if any of us would be able to enter. Any thoughts on how this task can be accomplished? I would volunteer to go myself, but I do not know if I am a worthy candidate. I fear if we cannot travel to Artaeum, then we must wait for the Summoning date.

~B

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer

Edited by B (02/29/04 09:28 PM)

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Hasphat Antabolis
Novice

Reged: 05/03/01
Posts: 21
Loc: Hla Oad
Re: Seeking the truth [Re: Nigedo]
      #2298505 - 02/29/04 09:08 PM

Quote:

What says Antabolis?


What, summon a Daedra to pardon the Devil? Oh my, why not?

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Seeking the truth [Re: Hasphat Antabolis]
      #2298551 - 02/29/04 09:25 PM

Allerleirauh, you have heard our thoughts, the decision now rests with you.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Ayem
Layman

Reged: 02/29/04
Posts: 3
Re: Seeking the truth [Re: Hasphat Antabolis]
      #2298554 - 02/29/04 09:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What says Antabolis?


What, summon a Daedra to pardon the Devil? Oh my, why not?




Vehk was right to choose you. Your mind is so closed it opens the other way.

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Nazz
Disciple

Reged: 02/21/02
Posts: 1399
Loc: Almalexia
I believe your kind calls this irony [Re: Nigedo]
      #2298645 - 02/29/04 09:53 PM

Quote:


I have had no love for the Tribunal Temple nor for their blind stewardship of Morrowind's gullible masses, but I take Vivec's former divinity as obvious fact.





Was that scholor or fool? For only a fool would stand halfway up the ladder and shout insults at those that had just started the climb.

Should we also mock the Sload? Or for that matter the Cyrodiil?

--------------------
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Aion
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interruption [Re: Nazz]
      #2298819 - 02/29/04 10:46 PM

I'm sorry to interrupt these proceedings, but I just wanted an attempt to clarify what happened, at least to Vehk (and I assume the other Tribunes, and probably Dagoth Ur and Nerevar as well) at Red Mountain. There was the now-dead Universe A, where the Tribunes were 'just' mortal Dunmer generals. They murdered Nerevar and then tapped the Heart. Wanting godhood, the Heart gave it to them, but maybe things in Tamriel aren't so easy as that. In fact, the Heart shook up the whole Aurbis to grant that wish, creating Universe B, where ALMSIVI had always been gods. And in which the murder of Nerevar did not happen, and Dunmeri history went more or less as presented in the Sermons (!). The Red Mountain incident was the intersection of these two disparate universes. And so something had to give. I envision something like the Dragon "re-raveling" itself in accordance with the divine, like the Dawn right after the gods left Tamriel. If what Vehk says is true, then, the murder of Nerevar only really happened in an alternate and now dead universe. And while that certainly fits with the tricky, trippy Tamriel mythology and its resident Thief spirit...I wonder what it says about Nerevar, the only documented case of mortal reincarnation? Dead, immortal, dead, immortal...is this Universe A trying to reassert itself through the victim of its negation?



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Nigedo
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Re: I believe your kind calls this irony [Re: Nazz]
      #2298867 - 02/29/04 11:06 PM

Quote:

Was that scholor or fool? For only a fool would stand halfway up the ladder and shout insults at those that had just started the climb.



Nazz, I am certain you misunderstand. And it is my fault for being imprecise. It is the heavyhanded corruption of the Tribunal Temple, witnessed in the Ordinators, and their apparent desire to keep the masses in scholarly ignorance for the sake of obedience that I dislike. Yet, unlike the Dissident Priests, they seem to have had precious little understanding to distinguish them from the common folk they claim to shephard.

However, I merely wished to make clear that I, a Dunmeri scholar, have never considered myself a member of Vivec's religious faithful. My interest has always been in Vehk's value as a teacher of knowledge and philosophy than in his value as a deity or political figure. Nevertheless, I do not question that he *was* a god.

However, if I have hurt the feelings of more religious Dunmer then I am sorry and I do hope that this will not cause us to digress further.

--------------------
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The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Edited by Nigedo (03/01/04 01:54 AM)

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Nazz
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Re: I believe your kind calls this irony [Re: Nigedo]
      #2299772 - 03/01/04 03:59 AM

Very well.

Then I await for the continuation of the proceedings.

--------------------
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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Back to the trial [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2300030 - 03/01/04 05:32 AM

Quote:

Azura is made of Anu, but Padomay changed her part of Anu. She is, perhaps, the closest of the Daedra to the Aedra. If you doubt her because she is made of Padomay, you doubt all of existence, because only Anu is free of Padomay, and Anu is too large for us to comprehend.




Basilisk, you are wrong:

Quote:

The blood of Padomay became the Daedra. The blood of Anu became the stars. The mingled blood of both became the Aedra (hence their capacity for good and evil, and their greater affinity for earthly affairs than the Daedra, who have no connection to Creation).




(The Annotated Anuad) If you have argument, take it up with the author (MK). Though, you are right on one thing. Anu is too large for us to comprehend. That's the glory of it.

As for our good Ayem, this should be interesting, one who truly as a god tried to murder Nerevar. We agree again Nigedo, what a merry dance.

Girai Harkaanius

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Back to the trial [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2300096 - 03/01/04 05:55 AM

Girai, I do not believe any book in Morrowind to be a complete account of what transpired at the moment of creation. In the Annotated Anuad, Anu and Padomay are not forces, but actual beings, and this is a misinterpretation in my opinion. Anu is an existence that is all of reality, but has no meaning because it can not be aware. Padomay is every force that brings awareness to Anu by disrupting its immobility. The book is a biased account by imperfect beings.

Padomay, by itself, has no form; only Anu has an actual body. Thus to say that Azura is simply made of Padomay is to say that Azura is nothing but energy, but if that were so, she would dissipate into nothingness without some means to hold herself together. Azura has Anu within her, but has also Padomay.

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Vehk
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Preparations [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2300149 - 03/01/04 06:13 AM

As we seem settled, then, we should pick our priest. And, as I do not think Azura shall stay long in the same room with me, I would form your questions beforehand. Perhaps a ribcage's worth, and no more.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Preparations [Re: Vehk]
      #2300168 - 03/01/04 06:20 AM

A good point, Vehk. Planned questions are far more appropriate than those thought of in the heat of the moment.

Was Nerevar indeed slain by the Tribunal, and if so, how was Vehk involved?
This questions should be asked for verification.

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Striker
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Re: Preparations [Re: Vehk]
      #2300197 - 03/01/04 06:31 AM

I have two questions:

Is the Vehk we see before us - stripped of his stolen Godhood - the same being that existed before he used the Heart?

And

What happened to the Dwemer? (someone had to ask! )

-Stri'Ker

--------------------
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TSBasilisk
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Re: Preparations [Re: Striker]
      #2300326 - 03/01/04 07:22 AM

Although I too yearn to hear what Azura has to say concerning the disappearance of the Dwemer, the questions pertaining to the trial take precedence over that subject.

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Striker
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Re: Preparations [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2300354 - 03/01/04 07:35 AM

I know, and I'm also 99.99% sure that it wouldn't have been answered even if the trial wasn't happening.

I just had to ask...

-Striker

--------------------
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LDones
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Re: Preparations [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2300409 - 03/01/04 07:57 AM

"In your esteem, have the Tribunal paid for their crimes or the crimes of their mortal forebears? If not, with the Chimer of Resdayn transformed into the Dunmer of Morrowind, Sotha Sil slain at the hands of Almalexia, and Almalexia slain at the hands of the now-missing Nerevarine, what manner of penance could remain for Vehk with his divinity now shorn?"

I believe this is a question we must ask Azura, Nerevar, Vehk himself and ourselves before this Council might come to a resolution, but I do not wish to speak out of turn.

Additionally, I voice my support for the questions of Stri'Ker and the one known as Basilisk. Vehk's advice for a concise amount of questioning seems wise. We've likely room for ten to twelve questions, for twelve pairs of ribs in man or mer - one rib for a question, one for an answer.

I believe it appropriate that Nigedo and Allerleirauh should hold responsibility for the final collation of questioning and the selection of a Dunmer priest. What say the Council members?

--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Back to the trial [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2300461 - 03/01/04 08:25 AM

Quote:

Azura has Anu within her, but has also Padomay.




Before associating Anu with Statis so quickly, remember Anu changed Padomay in the brushing and likewise. Because Anu "Is", it's very presence gives it the ability to change that which is around it.

As for a question, I'll think of one tomorrow when I'm not so exhausted.





--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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B
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Re: Preparations [Re: Vehk]
      #2300888 - 03/01/04 01:25 PM

Very well, since it appears that we are going to wait until the 21st of First Seed, I withdraw my offer to travel to the Summerset Isle in an attempt to broker a deal with the Psijics. I guess we will have to wait some twenty days for further information on these matters--unless we can come up with other questions that can be addressed in the meantime.

Vehk would like a priest to be chosen for the Day of Summoning. Anyone know of a worthy participant?

Oh yes, one last thing. I see that Allerleirauh has selected phil_t to record the minutes. I know that we at the Library will be interested not only in viewing those minutes but also keeping a copy on our shelves for others to see.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have other matters to attend to. I thank you for your time.

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Vehk
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If I may [Re: B]
      #2302171 - 03/01/04 09:41 PM

If I may put forward a question of my own to the dread lord Azura:

Should I be found guilty of past transgressions in a world that no longer lives, how might I find my absolution?

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Zenpachou
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Re: If I may [Re: Vehk]
      #2302202 - 03/01/04 09:51 PM

That would also beg the question of what sort of punishment would even be fitting for his "crimes."

But we are getting ahead of ourselves, I suppose.

--------------------
"Weird is relative."

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: If I may [Re: Vehk]
      #2302304 - 03/01/04 10:20 PM

Here's my question:

Why have you taken such offence to Vehk's actions if he as a god has done so much to benefit the people you "love"?

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Helton
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Re: If I may [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2302756 - 03/02/04 12:47 AM

Though I am sort of re-iterating(sp) what Girai has asked:

The Tribunal 'stole' godhood to help the Chimer people. Here you plot to steal worship from the Tribunal, to steal the Dunmer's hearts as you and Boethia did before, so many thousands of years ago.

"How are you any different than Vehk, if not more deceitful and selfish?"

--------------------
"Once all the walls are torn down, and the barriers broken, who will you be? Where will you stand? Will you find yourself empty, having only defined yourself through others? Or will you be your own person, and stand tall in your own magnificence? That, my friends, is the difference between heaven and hell; it is known as 'identity'." - Anonymous

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zingbat
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Re: If I may [Re: Vehk]
      #2302872 - 03/02/04 01:27 AM

A priest of Azura for Vhek. You will find no priest of Azura here where im standing but a witch will do. However i would take this answer with a grain of salt.

The Witch says: Azura dislikes Vivec as much as she dislikes the Tribunal and the heretics Dwemer. Both are one of the same and pay only tribute to themselfs. Vehk will only find absolution when the world that was lost for him will find him again.

Nonsense. Vhek will find absolution on a Cyridill court and only the Emperor can grant it for him. It would be a token of good will if Vhek would reveal the location of hearth and enchant a magic tome with the divine spells necessary to control the hearth, so that it can be locked forever in the vaults of the Imperial Library and away from mortal hands.


--------------------
Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi

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phil_t
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Re: If I may [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2302873 - 03/02/04 01:27 AM

B, i shall of course be glad to present a copy of the minutes to the Imperial Library and any other organisation that wishes to display them, indeed i could hardly withhold them, as they are a matter of public record.

I will start to compile the minutes soon, this will doubtless involve contacting most of the parties involved to clarify points and avoid misrepresenting people - so please dont be surprised to find a letter or two waiting when next you reach the shores of fair Tamriel. I hope i can rely on your co-operation in this matter.

Phil

--------------------
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*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

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Ayem
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Azura [Re: zingbat]
      #2302917 - 03/02/04 01:38 AM

Where will can you find one to summon Mother Morrowind? Perhaps her daughter-mother would suffice. One who can bind the earth and touch oblivion, reaching unto it's utter depths. I know of such a one.

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B
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Minutes [Re: phil_t]
      #2302922 - 03/02/04 01:40 AM

Quote:

B, i shall of course be glad to present a copy of the minutes to the Imperial Library and any other organisation that wishes to display them, indeed i could hardly withhold them, as they are a matter of public record.



Once again, I thank you for your efforts, phil_t.

--------------------
~B

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Azura [Re: Ayem]
      #2302942 - 03/02/04 01:43 AM

Quote:

One who can bind the earth and touch oblivion, reaching unto it's utter depths. I know of such a one.




Do I want to know...?

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Striker
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Re: If I may [Re: zingbat]
      #2303000 - 03/02/04 02:01 AM

Quote:

Nonsense. Vhek will find absolution on a Cyridill court and only the Emperor can grant it for him. It would be a token of good will if Vhek would reveal the location of hearth and enchant a magic tome with the divine spells necessary to control the hearth, so that it can be locked forever in the vaults of the Imperial Library and away from mortal hands.




zingbat: Have you learnt nothing? Do you think we will stand by and let the Emperor take the Heart and know the process of using the tools? Your love for the dying Emperor has coulded your judgement, and you are blind. Are we not here today because of the act you wish to replicate? The Emperor is the last person that can be trusted with this temptation. I will not let history repeat itself.

-Stri'Ker

--------------------
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Vehk
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animal picture [Re: Ayem]
      #2303081 - 03/02/04 02:24 AM

Quote:

Where will can you find one to summon Mother Morrowind? Perhaps her daughter-mother would suffice. One who can bind the earth and touch oblivion, reaching unto it's utter depths. I know of such a one.




Rude spirit, animal picture, name shade... I cast you out. Liar. The symbol you have stolen is one third the reason I am here. Do not malign the memory of one I would atone for besides myself.

False promoter, base mimic, ownshook... I cast you out. Liar.



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God_of_Worms
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Re: If I may [Re: Striker]
      #2303083 - 03/02/04 02:24 AM

Ah, yes, a mortal's witch-hunt. It has been quite some time since petty souls have lured my curiosity into such a petty (or is it?!) event. A riddled tongue versus the weak? Please do consider me a worthy accountant of this affair.

By all means, please do continue on with your bandwagon folly. Mind not the shadowy figure amidst your presence.

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Allerleirauh
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Re: If I may [Re: phil_t]
      #2303084 - 03/02/04 02:25 AM

(Do others hear a voice from beyond the grave? I am troubled by it... often lying spirits thus speak in the voices of the dead.)

Noble B, I confess I had not thought of the Dreaming Cave. But if my memory serves, Sotha Sil did not escape unscathed from his encounter there. I would not freight your soul in such a way while another alternative lies open to us. And perhaps we shall have better answers from Azura here than in her own realm.

Earlier I suggested three categories of crimes: against Nerevar, against the gods, and against the people of Morrowind. It seems to me that Azura may well shed light on the first two. And that surely this court has enough authority to decide the matter of the third without supernatural help.

So: many have spoken of the murder of Nerevar. This seems to me the least of Vivec's many crimes. Shall we speak also of broken oaths, and oaths sworn falsely? Of stolen divinity, and worship diverted?



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Vehk
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Re: If I may [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2303126 - 03/02/04 02:38 AM

Quote:



So: many have spoken of the murder of Nerevar. This seems to me the least of Vivec's many crimes. Shall we speak also of broken oaths, and oaths sworn falsely? Of stolen divinity, and worship diverted?






If you do this, I beg the court that I might call a soul to my defense.

Governing my sweet Vvardenfell, for me, displayed itself mainly as fashion-orgies, insect wrestling, and chocolate parades.

I would have someone who knew the more pedestrian aspects of my supervisory benevolence to represent me here.


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Allerleirauh
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Re: If I may [Re: Vehk]
      #2303137 - 03/02/04 02:41 AM

Well, Vehk, who would you call? The business of this court is speech, not silence.

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Vehk
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Wabbajackanape [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2303189 - 03/02/04 02:51 AM

Quote:

Well, Vehk, who would you call? The business of this court is speech, not silence.





Oh, I doubt you will have to worry there, little snowskin, I think he is the most talkative Corner I know. And fortunately more ready to attend than Azura, for he heeds dates seldom.

Mercy, you've shown me little. And so it is with no little irony that I call SHEOGORATH to defend me on the matters of my state!

Bitter spear of mercy, meet your mirror.




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Nigedo
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Vehk]
      #2303272 - 03/02/04 03:13 AM

Hold. Before you bring out the Mad God to plea your case, I would have assurance of the safety of the minds of mortals present here.

What constraints will Sheogorath be under?

--------------------
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The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Vehk]
      #2303273 - 03/02/04 03:13 AM

Now THAT is an interesting proposal. It is quite easy to summon Sheogorath, as most people know. In fact, it is often hard to NOT summon that Prince of Madness. Still, the thought of taking him as a witness is unnerving for the fact of what he is. If Vehk is the Prince of Riddles, then Sheogorath is Emperor of Obscurity. Should the court accept Sheogorath as a witness, we should be prepared for information that is most likely relevant to the subject at hand, but at the same time so contorted in language it is hardly comprehensible. Not to mention he may offer somebody Wabbajack, and then that's all we'd hear. Wabbajack, Wabbajack, Wabbajack.

--------------------
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Sheogorath
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2303305 - 03/02/04 03:25 AM

Hello. I was having drinks with my two best friends, Bad Bad Bad Bad Blad and myself, when I received the subpoena. I came as quickly as I could, though in a non-linear fashion, so you will have to forgive my lack of lines.

From a legal point-of-view, lawsuits against deities aren’t actually very uncommon, though many choose to settle out of court or simply pay the fine, which is seldom more than five gold. I once had a bout of self-doubt, was judged guilty of heresy, and had to choose between death by stoning or by inhalation next to an orc. I chose the baked chicken.

At first I thought I was being summoned as a character witness, and I can assure you I’ve seen lower-cases, or to give my expert testimony of the fascinating psychological aspects of this trial. It’s something I’ve given a lot of serious thought to. To quote dear Almalexia, “People think I’m crazy just because of all the weird things I say while fondling wombats.”

But while I’m not quite mad enough to be a judge, I think I’m well-qualified to be a barrister for the defense. Now, remind me: which is better, guilty or not guilty?


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Nigedo
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303339 - 03/02/04 03:34 AM

Apparently my request to delay your summoning came too late to be heeded. Well, I presume Vehk has a motive for calling you.

Let Vehk question you.

--------------------
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The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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B
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You're Too Kind [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2303371 - 03/02/04 03:42 AM

Quote:

Noble B, I confess I had not thought of the Dreaming Cave. But if my memory serves, Sotha Sil did not escape unscathed from his encounter there. I would not freight your soul in such a way while another alternative lies open to us. And perhaps we shall have better answers from Azura here than in her own realm.



My dear Allerleirauh, your voice is a voice of reason. I am not always one for such logical choices. The good of the many oft-times outweighs the good of the one.

But thankfully, you and I have come to the same conclusion on this particular matter. I must confess, though, I had entertained the idea of venturing out on my own to seek the Cavern in the West. Then, deafening visions filled my head: What-If’s and Could-Be’s were appearing when I closed my eyes. I came to the conclusion that I stood little chance of entering Oblivion and escaping with my life. Any information that could be gleaned from the Princes is of little use when placed in dead hands. After some thought, I decided that I might serve a better purpose by staying here. That, however, remains to be seen.

--------------------
~B

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Vehk]
      #2303391 - 03/02/04 03:44 AM

Quote:

Mercy, you've shown me little. And so it is with no little irony that I call SHEOGORATH to defend me on the matters of my state!




Vehk, you are beyond insane. What do you hope to gain by summoning such a witness? Even if Sheogorath had reason to tell the truth, it would come out as a load of incoherent jibberish. Unless if you seek to drive your prosecutors mad, I see no reason for this new action.

By the way, what cause does the God of Worms have to attend this merry assemblage? We will not have any more trouble caused here then already done.

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Sheogorath
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2303421 - 03/02/04 03:52 AM

I object! You subject!

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303429 - 03/02/04 03:53 AM

Quote:

I object! You subject!




See what I mean?

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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B
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Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303471 - 03/02/04 04:04 AM

Oh, Sheogorath, how good of you to join us. It has been a long time, Mad One. I remember those glorious days when you tried to dissuade me in my research. Or perhaps you were merely trying to help me. I am never too sure.

No matter. It is great to see you. For, how better to know our sanity than by staring Madness in the face.

Do continue.

--------------------
~B

Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library

Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer

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Sheogorath
Disciple

Reged: 07/14/00
Posts: 1321
Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2303486 - 03/02/04 04:09 AM

You call it nonsense, and you’re right – there is no sense that can touch madness. Therefore madness is not physical. And therefore, madness is immaterial.

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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
First question [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303488 - 03/02/04 04:09 AM

Ah, beloved enemy, "symbol affixed on things unborn, seen from the mercy seat without love to run or rename," it seems I am to question you. Strange. Perhaps the Tribunal fears your eight-legged visage.

So: the governance of Morrowind during my tenure: did you like or dislike?

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Sheogorath
Disciple

Reged: 07/14/00
Posts: 1321
Re: First question [Re: Vehk]
      #2303512 - 03/02/04 04:17 AM

Quote:

So: the governance of Morrowind during my tenure: did you like or dislike?




Would you rephrase that as “So: the governance of Morrowind during my tenure: did you dislike or like?”

Regardless, I liked my displeasure in it.

I’d like to object to what I just said! Witness is leading the witless!


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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
Second question [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303543 - 03/02/04 04:28 AM

A popular book in Morrowind compares me to my Anticipation, Mephala, thusly:

"[The] explicit presentation of Vivec the Guardian God-King and Warrior-Poet is the one most accessible and familiar to Westerners. However, it is important to remember that Vivec is also known to the Dunmer as the transcendent evolution of the daedra that anticipated him, Black Hands Mephala, a foundation figure of the earliest Chimer. This darker side of Vivec does not appear in the popular literature and liturgy, but is instinctively understood and accepted by the Dunmer as an integral part of Vivec's divine aspect."

As part of the fraternity that you share with my fore-self Mephala, would you or would you not say that my replacement of Hir (in Veloth, at least) was hardly noticed by the common people?

Moreso, wouldn't you say that I did not replace Mephala so much as become Hir living celebrant?



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God_of_Worms
Novice

Reged: 03/02/04
Posts: 18
Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2303597 - 03/02/04 04:46 AM

Quote:

By the way, what cause does the God of Worms have to attend this merry assemblage? We will not have any more trouble caused here then already done.




I assure you, my attendance is hardly a summoning. A Dark Raven fed unto me the tidings of a grand accusation in The East. Upon hearing detail of this most exciting event, I decided that my absence would be quite a personal regret. I would just as soon witness the lame spawn of dragons mate than miss this.

Now please, continue. I sense much disorder in this trial of ego versus jealousy.

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Sheogorath
Disciple

Reged: 07/14/00
Posts: 1321
Re: Second question [Re: Vehk]
      #2303617 - 03/02/04 04:49 AM

In order to avoid confusion, may I take the first part of the last question last?

Quote:

As part of the fraternity that you share with my fore-self Mephala, would you or would you not say that my replacement of Hir (in Veloth, at least) was hardly noticed by the common people?




Hir? You mean, Hircine? We don’t call Him Hir Here, Ha. In fact, we never call Hircine at all, because he’s naked and smells quite a lot, and he never takes off his antlers in the presence of ladies. Now, Mephala is a different kettle of cheese. I’ve never spoken to a common person – they are far too rare – but I understand that many of them prefer you to Mephala, and being devoured by slaughterfish to both of you.

Quote:

Moreso, wouldn't you say that I did not replace Mephala so much as become her living celebrant?




Absolutely, I would say that, but only because I don’t know what that means. Could you clarify your position, so I can confuse you?


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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
Not guilty on the matter-- [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303645 - 03/02/04 04:56 AM


Quote:

Moreso, wouldn't you say that I did not replace Mephala so much as become her living celebrant?




Absolutely, I would say that.




Very good. I would rest my case on the matter of worship diverted. What says the Council?


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Xanathar
Disciple

Reged: 05/31/00
Posts: 1020
Re: Second question [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303692 - 03/02/04 05:09 AM

* the librarian murmurs to himself, "I have sensed him for so long, finally the mad god shows up. Is he the real mad god or just an entity that use the infamous name of mad god? I have yet to see the proceeding. " *

--------------------
~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild

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Vehk
Initiate

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Posts: 97
Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: God_of_Worms]
      #2303712 - 03/02/04 05:18 AM

Quote:

I sense much disorder in this trial of ego versus jealousy.




As you go up, so do I come down. I welcome thee, Mannimarco, to this jury of dreams. I foresee you may have the last word here, after Azura comes with her moon-slain reprieve.

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Third question [Re: Sheogorath]
      #2303725 - 03/02/04 05:27 AM

I have a further question for Madness.

Sheogorath, in becoming gods of the Chimer, did Vivec and the other Tribunes take upon themselves the spiritual welfare of the Chimer, thereby removing the Chimer from the divine stewardship of Mephala, Azura and Boethiah?

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Identificaton of visitors [Re: Vehk]
      #2303774 - 03/02/04 05:46 AM

Vehk, you may recognise Mannimarco, but most here do not. We are not so familiar with these notables as you and so it would be easy for us to slide into confusion with regard to their identities.

As appointed Tribune, I therefore call for one who can identify such notable observers and witnesses as may be unknown amongst us, to announce the legitimate presence of such individuals, that they are indeed who they claim to be.

Is there any present who can and will perform this duty?

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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TSBasilisk
Diviner

Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 2847
Loc: Durango, CO
Re: Identificaton of visitors [Re: Nigedo]
      #2303811 - 03/02/04 06:03 AM

...Wabbajack, Wabbajack, Wabbajack, Wabbajack...

--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
Novice

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Posts: 47
Re: Identificaton of visitors [Re: Nigedo]
      #2303840 - 03/02/04 06:11 AM

Quote:

Is there any present who can and will perform this duty?




I will, only for the sake of the preceeding, recognise these beings as such, Mannimarco, and the One, Sheogorath. They are, unmistakingly, who they say they are.

I do sense a strange representation with their presence at this assembly. It is not likely that the King of Worms would dwell among mortals without some sort of trickery in his shadow.

My OLD friend, Vehk, of the late ALMSIVI, what scheme have you devised to draw forth such a stagnant crowd? You can not hide your intensions behind that wicked smile you wear forever.

--------------------
Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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mafafu
Diviner

Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 2246
Re: Identificaton of visitors [Re: Divayth Fyr the Psijic]
      #2303883 - 03/02/04 06:27 AM

They're really crawling out of the woodwork for this one! I don't believe I've seen so many notables gathered in one place since the old gods gathered at the Old Tower.

I still believe this entire procedure to be folly, but it is, nevertheless, most fascinating. They say that you should learn from your mistakes and that if you can, it's best to learn from others' mistakes. And I have learned quite a bit from zingbat's error. I look forward to hearing more from the upcoming witnesses.

--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Identificaton of visitors [Re: Divayth Fyr the Psijic]
      #2303898 - 03/02/04 06:32 AM

Thank you for your assistance Lord Fyr.

I will now hope that Sheogorath will honour me with an answer to my question.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
I fear he may be gone [Re: Nigedo]
      #2303947 - 03/02/04 06:50 AM

Quote:

Thank you for your assistance Lord Fyr.I will now hope that Sheogorath will honour me with an answer to my question.


Master, I sense that the Mad One has left for the moment. It may have had something to do with the presence of Lord Fyr, who is one of the few adepts I know that can send the jackanape-god into tears. May I suggest that your question be answered by none other than your fellow Tribune, Hasphat Antabolis, on the morrow? If any here could speak with authority about my stewardship of the people of Vvardenfell, I admit that it is the Hlaalu bedhandler asleep at your side...

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: I fear he may be gone [Re: Vehk]
      #2303981 - 03/02/04 07:05 AM

Thank you Vehk, but my question was directed to one who is an et'Ada and whose view of mortal experience is objective, if skewed.

If Sheogorath does not return, then my question will keep for Azura.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Archeopterix
Protochicken

Reged: 04/14/01
Posts: 10623
Loc: the last place you'd look
Re: Identificaton of visitors [Re: Nigedo]
      #2303982 - 03/02/04 07:05 AM

It sseems that my presencce hass been noted, for I have alsso been called to sstep from the sshadowss and confirm the identityiess of thesse noted individualss.

Let me sstate for the recordss that Sheogorath, Daedra Lord of Madness is present, ass iss Mannimarco: God Of Worms, Vehk ass we know him, and Divayth Fyr.

I will sstand closse and confirm thesse individualssss as they arrive.

Ar-chee(opt-erix), Argonian of unknown origin

--------------------
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

Morrowind Avatars
Chatroom!


Edited by Archeopterix (03/02/04 08:46 AM)

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
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Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Identificaton of visitors [Re: Archeopterix]
      #2304004 - 03/02/04 07:18 AM

Thank you Archeopterix, I am certain that Lord Fyr will not allow himself to be distracted from his researches for long and I am grateful that you have offered to remain and identify any further notables.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2585
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Skilled summoner [Re: Nigedo]
      #2304037 - 03/02/04 07:31 AM

Allerleirauh,

Have you agreed to the skilled summoner that was privately proposed earlier for the summoning of Azura?

I know that Antabolis is in support.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

Reged: 10/09/02
Posts: 2660
Re: Skilled summoner [Re: Nigedo]
      #2304077 - 03/02/04 07:50 AM

Yes, Nigedo.

Ainoryl informs me he is familiar with the summoning procedure. So be it.

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Ainoryl
Novice

Reged: 02/20/04
Posts: 29
Re: Skilled summoner [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2304097 - 03/02/04 08:10 AM

*Steps out from the mob*

This is correct, I am familiar with the invocation of the Mother Soul.

In this act I will require four gifts, worthy of Azura:

-The artifact Azura’s Star. It rests in Vvardenfell.

-The antlers of the beast King Dead Wolf-Deer. The beast was last seen in High Rock.

-A single ringlet from the Wraithmail of Alandro-Sul, son of Azura. It may be found in Vvardenfell.

-The last gift to the Goddess of Dusk and Dawn may be found here. A shadow stripped, willingly and permanently, from one who watches this trial.

Any who would aid in the gathering of these items, step forward. Please pardon my interruption of the proceedings. You have twenty days.


--------------------
Ainoryl

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TSBasilisk
Diviner

Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 2847
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Re: Skilled summoner [Re: Ainoryl]
      #2304109 - 03/02/04 08:21 AM

Wabbajack, Wabbajack, Wabba...

Wait, that's going to get old really quick. I..Must...STOP....THE.....MADNESS!!!

Okay, I volunteer to aid in the retrieval of the ringlet of the Wraithmail. I am a researcher, and will spend my time in studying the records to determine the location of Sul's tomb from a half and three millenia past.

--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild

Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft

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Vehk
Initiate

Reged: 06/08/03
Posts: 97
Pet Priest [Re: Ainoryl]
      #2304125 - 03/02/04 08:36 AM

Ainoryl, is it? A fine choice, if a bit babe-before-wolves. And I see this is his first True summoning, as he's taking the wisest of precautions. Smart boy. Let it be known, then, that he is blessed, and that no man or mer may hinder him on pain of Mark.

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LDones
Disciple

Reged: 10/10/02
Posts: 1040
Re: Skilled summoner [Re: Ainoryl]
      #2304143 - 03/02/04 08:51 AM

Oh my. It seems I am in high company. Lord Mannimarco, if you can hear me, may I say it is an honor to be in your… presence, as it were. I have numerous acquaintances who shall nearly die with envy at the mention that I have attended Council under your view. Your mortal work is most influential - if unorthodox. I appear to have missed Lord Fyr and the old Skooma Cat this time around, but I shall make the most of our next meeting, whenever it may be.

Master Ainoryl, a heavy thanks on behalf of this Council for your services as an impartial priest. I am sure you may be trusted with the burden of discretion that these proceedings necessitate. Now, the matter of obtaining the necessary summoning materials within twenty days...

Azura’s Star – Some more illuminated companions of mine (Great Librarian Xanathar knows of whom I speak, though I would beg of him to let them remain anonymous) recently let slip that the Nerevarine had hold of Azura’s Star while in their company, and was heading toward the Nordic island of Solstheim with it in possession, shortly before all that business with the moons turning red those months back. Whether it was left somewhere on Vvardenfell for safe-keeping or was left on Solstheim since our dear Nerevarine went incognito is a mystery. I would recommend someone from the Council be dispatched to the island of Solstheim to speak w/ the Nordic peoples there. The former leaders of various factions here on Vvardenfell should also likely be consulted. Hm. Archmage Trebonius and Lord Venim of Redoran were recently deceased, weren’t they? Is Percius Mercius still about? Hasphat Antabolis might have heard of something. I shall ask him…

I have no ideas whatsoever regarding the whereabouts of the Antlers or the ringlet of Wraithmail.

As for the stripping of a shadow, I have given it a great deal of thought, and am willing to volunteer mine for the process. This is no small sacrifice for an outlander, I know – and the potential consequences of being faced with all manner of wraiths or some bloody evil incarnation of my own shadow at some future time as a result are palpable, believe me – but the unknown waits to be pierced for only so long – and it is not often that one is called upon to give a gift to a god on behalf of the guilt or innocence of another. I ask only that I be allowed my final days with my shadow in peace until the 20th of First Seed, so I might make the necessary… spiritual preparations.

If one more worthy or more zealous than myself should step forward, then by all means I shall accede. But I am an observer and an active participant in this Trial and have made my decision known.

In the meantime, the questions to be posed to both Azura and Lord Vehk’s unusual defense should be further explored and refined, I think.

--Louis D'Onus
Breton-Born Dunmer of Dubious Distinction

--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles

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Ainoryl
Novice

Reged: 02/20/04
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Re: Skilled summoner [Re: LDones]
      #2304185 - 03/02/04 09:16 AM

I give thanks to you, Louis D'Onus, for the information you bring to light. Any who would aid in the recovery of Azura's star, might make best of their time in the direction of Solstheim, tracing the footsteps of the Nerevarine.

Let it also be noted that Louis D'Onus has offered his shadow willingly in the invocation of Azura. Brave, and noble I say. Fear not for your peace, it will remain unbroken until the twentieth.

--------------------
Ainoryl

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tegger
Creepy ShadowLady

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Posts: 15535
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Re: Skilled summoner [Re: LDones]
      #2304189 - 03/02/04 09:17 AM

This Hall is becoming crowded, so we will soon require a change of venue in order to maintain the good health of all participants. As a Herald and Bailiff of the court, it is my duty and my honor to let you all know that we have reserved a Hall to prepare for the upcoming summoning of Azura on Hogithum. Please take your questions for Azura and other materials for this event to the Hogithum Preparations Hall.

Edit (addendum):

My apologies for not clearly indicating what I meant. I hadn't intended for the entire trial to be moved over to the Hogithum Preparations Hall (at least not just yet), but since that appears to have happened, I'll go ahead and close the doors on this hall in order to avoid possible further confusion.

--------------------
Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(



Edited by tegger (03/03/04 07:34 AM)

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Aquiantus
Adept

Reged: 08/29/03
Posts: 338
Re: Wabbajackanape [Re: Vehk]
      #2304222 - 03/02/04 09:48 AM

Quote:


Mercy, you've shown me little. And so it is with no little irony that I call SHEOGORATH to defend me on the matters of my state!





It will be most fascinating to find out if Vehk the Mortal and Vehk the God has the same state of mind as Vehk the Rescinded. If so SHEOGORATH would likely know as it is his area of expertise. This would help to prove if Vehk the Mortal is truely dead or not. It will be interesting also to hear the state of mind of why Vehk the Mortal would have murdered his Hortator, instead of just using the profane tools without permission. Is it that Indoril Nerevar was trying to stop the procedure from occuring and died an honorable death trying to uphold the oaths to Azura? Or was it that Vehk the Mortal became insane and murdered Nerevar simply because he knew of the Heart of Lorkhan?

If the last is true, then it could be argued that Vehk the Mortal and Vehk the God both did constrive to keep the knowledge of the Heart of Lorkhan under concealment. It would also link to the continuation of concealment of the truth and the concealment of events that truely did occur. In this event of concealment during Vehk the Gods tenure, did not suppression and assassinations occur to keep it this way?

If Vehk the Mortal is a concealer of the Heart of Lorkhan and a murderor to keep it that way, is it not safe to say that 'If' Vehk the God did the same actions, that Vehk the Mortal is indeed still alive?

I would like to see more comparison of this arguement. Did Vehk the God and Vehk the Mortal have the same motivations? If no then Vehk the God is truely different, but if yes then it is hard for me to acknowledge Vehk the Mortal as being dead when his motivations were not.

In this reference, I present the case of Oreyn Bearclaw vs Kharag gro-Khar. The descendants of Bearclaw did continue to curtail the publics opinion by falsely attributing their ancestors as the hero instead of the true hero Kharag gro-Khar. In so doing the descendants are allowing thier ancestors motivations to continue to live. If not punished, then one could say that the motivations are living proof of the crime and continuation of it. Therefor, punishment to the descendants for retribution should be acceptable. The rescinding of the crime of his forbears still was not enough, the punishment sentenced in Malacath's Court was the forfeiture of life.

Though this is from another court I find its meaning relavent to this trial. I believe that punishment was to linient, for I would have had him paraded around with a giant red L tattoo on the forhead for Liar or Loser, never to be removed or concealed, forever shunned from society. Though I can well understand why Malacath did not even want one such as him even in his Sphere of Ostracism.

--------------------
Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu - screen shots
Dwemer Links
Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
Member of Team Pheonix

Edited by Aquiantus (03/02/04 09:55 AM)

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