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Bethesda Softworks Forums _ Elder Scrolls Lore _ Time and Place inconsistencies

Posted by: Deepfighter May 9 2008, 12:26 PM

Hej guys i will make it short

1. When were Tavia (Remans III Wife) banned to Castle Giovesse? In the 2920-Books you read the date 2913 but in the PGE (3rd Edition) you find the date 2899.

QUOTE
Its most famouse convicts include the notorious axe murderer Nai, the heretic Devir-Mir, and Tavia, the wife of the last emperor of the First Era, who was sent to Gideon in 1E 2899, accused of treason.
--http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/blackmarsh.shtml

I think 2913 but yeah have to ask because the third edition was released 3Ä 431 the 2920-Books are older...and who knows how the information changed over the years (i think it is only a mistake by Beth)

2. Morgiah...she went to Firsthold like everyone knows. In the Book the firsthold revolt is she in love with Reman. In the game Daggerfall has she Karoodil (http://www.imperial-library.info/tsod/morgiahsletter.shtml). Who is now her real husband? I'm thinking it is Reman but like i said not sure at all...

3. In the 2920-Books you find a lot of information also a lot of stuff who are now actually not in the games, for example where is Black Gate? What is with all this places like Caer Suvio, Mir Corrup,...how you can bring them in the world or can explain their non existence in the game. Or are this mistakes by Beth we have to life with?

thx already for your answers.

Posted by: Nazz May 9 2008, 01:05 PM

QUOTE(Deepfighter @ May 9 2008, 07:26 AM) [snapback]12219494[/snapback]
Hej guys i will make it short

1. When were Tavia (Remans III Wife) banned to Castle Giovesse? In the 2920-Books you read the date 2913 but in the PGE (3rd Edition) you find the date 2899.

--http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/blackmarsh.shtml

I think 2913 but yeah have to ask because the third edition was released 3Ä 431 the 2920-Books are older...and who knows how the information changed over the years (i think it is only a mistake by Beth)

2. Morgiah...she went to Firsthold like everyone knows. In the Book the firsthold revolt is she in love with Reman. In the game Daggerfall has she Karoodil (http://www.imperial-library.info/tsod/morgiahsletter.shtml). Who is now her real husband? I'm thinking it is Reman but like i said not sure at all...

3. In the 2920-Books you find a lot of information also a lot of stuff who are now actually not in the games, for example where is Black Gate? What is with all this places like Caer Suvio, Mir Corrup,...how you can bring them in the world or can explain their non existence in the game. Or are this mistakes by Beth we have to life with?

thx already for your answers.

1. This is just a goof up I imagine. Oddly enough the same dev wrote both those books. If you are looking to use the date for something, I'd go with the PGE answer, since it is more recent.

2. One thing to keep in mind when reading the Daggerfall story is that some of the names get randomly generated as you play. The name of the King that Morgiah was to wed is one of those names that gets generated, so it isn't a good base to go by.

3. Just game limitations, it would take way to long and way to much money to include every little place. It would have been nice if they added those places at least as little 4 house hamlets or something but they didn't. It is also a shame they didn't include the entrances to the other provinces, even if you couldn't go through them, but it's just another of those time/relevance things.

Posted by: Nalion May 9 2008, 01:07 PM

QUOTE(Deepfighter @ May 9 2008, 01:26 PM) [snapback]12219494[/snapback]
Hej guys i will make it short

2. Morgiah...she went to Firsthold like everyone knows. In the Book the firsthold revolt is she in love with Reman. In the game Daggerfall has she Karoodil (http://www.imperial-library.info/tsod/morgiahsletter.shtml). Who is now her real husband? I'm thinking it is Reman but like i said not sure at all...

Thx already for your answers.

Karodiil is mentioned nowhere else. I would guess that Morgiah was betrothed to Karodiil and Karodiil died. Successor was Reman, who took up the marriage, which seems to work out rather well for them.

For the rest, I'd say go to the source and PM Tedders on his Sheogorath account.

Posted by: Tedders May 12 2008, 03:06 AM

QUOTE(Nalion @ May 9 2008, 05:07 AM) [snapback]12219578[/snapback]
Karodiil is mentioned nowhere else. I would guess that Morgiah was betrothed to Karodiil and Karodiil died. Successor was Reman, who took up the marriage, which seems to work out rather well for them.

For the rest, I'd say go to the source and PM Tedders on his Sheogorath account.


Good catch, but Reman and Karoodil are one and the same. Reman's such a common name in Tamriel, the Remans need more than one name.

For the rest -

1. They're both right. Tavia was banished to Gideon in Black Marsh twenty-one years before her death, and she was moved from castle to castle, until she ended up in Giovesse in 2913.

2. Lots of locations are mentioned in books but they're not places you can get to in the games. Black Gate, however, is an exception. It's one of the dungeons in Arena.


Posted by: proweler May 12 2008, 03:19 AM

I'm no good at the P&P stuff, but how does this Karoodil Reman connect to things? What does he rule over? Who does he relate too?

Posted by: Tedders May 12 2008, 04:18 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 11 2008, 07:19 PM) [snapback]12230495[/snapback]
I'm no good at the P&P stuff, but how does this Karoodil Reman connect to things? What does he rule over? Who does he relate too?


He's the King of Firsthold in the Summerset Isle.


Posted by: Nalion May 12 2008, 10:23 AM

QUOTE(Tedders @ May 12 2008, 04:06 AM) [snapback]12230449[/snapback]
Good catch, but Reman and Karoodil are one and the same. Reman's such a common name in Tamriel, the Remans need more than one name.

For the rest -

1. They're both right. Tavia was banished to Gideon in Black Marsh twenty-one years before her death, and she was moved from castle to castle, until she ended up in Giovesse in 2913.

2. Lots of locations are mentioned in books but they're not places you can get to in the games. Black Gate, however, is an exception. It's one of the dungeons in Arena.

Good to know that (*scribbles down notes*) and good to see you!

Posted by: Nazz May 12 2008, 01:25 PM

I guess it's been to long since I played Daggefall, I thought the king Morgiah was to marry was one of the randomly generated names. Thanks Tedders.

Posted by: proweler May 12 2008, 03:08 PM

QUOTE(Tedders @ May 12 2008, 05:18 AM) [snapback]12230711[/snapback]
He's the King of Firsthold in the Summerset Isle.


How come an Altmer is named Reman or how come a man is ruling in Summerset?

Posted by: AstionM May 12 2008, 03:25 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 12 2008, 10:08 AM) [snapback]12231915[/snapback]
How come an Altmer is named Reman or how come a man is ruling in Summerset?


Indeed. A human ruling an Altmeri city? Sounds very unlikely.

The name Karoodil has a very Altmeri cast to it, whereas Reman is a decidedly Cyro-Nordic name. Karoodil Reman? Putting these two names together almost makes the man sound like a half elf.

Posted by: Apophis2412 May 12 2008, 03:47 PM

QUOTE(AstionM @ May 12 2008, 03:25 PM) [snapback]12231959[/snapback]
Indeed.


What makes it even more unlikely is that this Reman is married to Morgiah.
To paraphrase you: A human and a dark elf ruling an Altmeri city? Sounds very unlikely.

Posted by: Tedders May 13 2008, 03:21 AM

QUOTE(Apophis2412 @ May 12 2008, 07:47 AM) [snapback]12232004[/snapback]
What makes it even more unlikely is that this Reman is married to Morgiah.
To paraphrase you: A human and a dark elf ruling an Altmeri city? Sounds very unlikely.


It's unlikely?

Quote from Daggerfall:

QUOTE
King Eadwyre and
Queen Barenziah,
Sovereigns of the Kingdom of Wayrest
Are Proud to Announce The Engagement
of Morgiah, Princess of Wayrest,
to Karoodil,
King of Firsthold
in the Isle of Sumurset.


Link to a book about Reman and Morgiah being King and Queen of Firsthold: http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/firsthold_revolt.shtml

Posted by: Adventurous Putty May 13 2008, 03:36 AM

Right, Ted, but is Karoodil an Altmer or a human? If Altmer, then why the "Reman" in the name? And if human, then why would he be ruling an Altmeri city-state?

Posted by: Deepfighter May 13 2008, 10:53 AM

Thx a lot for all you answers =) Especially of course Tedders response. I am definitive suprised to see here an developer of The Elder Scrolls series...it is amazing and an honour for me. You have created so much Lore, histories, etc., stuff we work since years with, incredible...and to support the Community with answers is great work, thx for creating this all and for helping us to understand the connections...oh my god i don't really know what i want to say more, it's still unbelievable to see you here

Someone asked how i have to use these information: I need these connections that i can write an article about it for the German community. My lore-based encyclopaedia try to make everything so logical as possible, and this is without these Forums here quite impossibly, because you have not much german lore-interests people in our community and mostly i try to figure out by myself what could be, but sometimes i want to go sure, so i ask here We have also the problem that the english-german translations (have only Redguard, Morrowind and Oblivion with "official" german translation) are sometimes difficult, you work here with the original stuff we get mostly bad translations from publisher or as you see in Oblivion, who was a disaster, incomplete or totally wrong translations (a book who apeared in morrowind and oblivion for example have for firsthold/wayrest different names etc.)...so actually Lore-interest people have to work a lot with the english-stuffs, but have to look if there exist a good translation. It's quite complicated actually =D *haha*

but if i am already here i can come with two other questions, again Daggerfall-Problem (oh i love this game =D)

1. Akorithi has a husband...the Imperial-Library mentioned two similar persons: Cameran and Cameron. Probably they are one and the same, but which name you can take as the on and only?

2. The Septim Dynasty...oh this was fun i went with my friend through all the books about emperors of the third era, and we found a lot of different information’s. I will try to make an overview, with a few questions.

- Tiber Septim (*2Ä 827, † 3Ä 38) -> reign to his death
- Pelagius I (* ???, † 3Ä 41) -> reign to his death
- Kintyra I (* ???, † 3Ä 53) -> to her death
- Uriel I (* ???, † 3Ä 64) -> to his death
- Uriel II (* ???, † 3Ä 82) -> to his death
- Pelagius II (* ???, † 3Ä 99) -> to his death

ok but now during the time of the red diamond we have a lot of different sources.

- Antiochus I -> this man is for me a mystery...ok i mean this:

His birth: In the "Biography of the Wolf Queen" he is during the death of his father Pelagius II in the year 3Ä 99 - 28 years old -> Birthday: 3Ä 71. In the wolfs queen part III is the information that he is 43 years old when his dad died -> Birthday: 3Ä 56 - I thought in this way, his younger sister Potema was born in 3Ä 67 so it's more logical that 3Ä 56 is correct, right?

His death: The Wolfsqueen IV and the Madness of Pelagius says he dies in the year 3Ä 119, other sources 3Ä 120. In the brief history of a empire you find the date 3Ä 112. Can we see the last date as official or is it 3Ä 119?

- Kintyra II (* 3Ä 104, † 3Ä 123) -> reign to her death

After the Wolfs queen V is she at the age of 15 on the throne. 3Ä 104 was her birth date then Antiochus had to die 3Ä 119. But his death date is speculated between 3Ä 112 and 3Ä 119/120 so I am really not sure which now the exact date.

- Uriel III (* 3Ä 97, † 3Ä 127) -> reign to his death
- Potema (* 3Ä 67 † 3Ä 137) -> reign to her death
- Cephorus I (* ???, † 3Ä 140) -> reign to his death
- Magnus I (* ???, † 3Ä 145) -> reign to his death but here i have another question...

His Wife was after the book the wolfs queen part III Hellena. In the madness of Pelagius is the name of his wife Utheilla. The last one is the mother Pelagius III's. Is Hellena his second wife? My theorie is that Utheilla died after she gave birth to Pelagius III and Magnus then took Hellena, could this be possible?

- Pelagius III (* 3Ä 119, † 3Ä 153) (i know that in the Wolfs queen part VII he has his birth at 3Ä 125)
- Katariah I (* ???, † 3Ä 199) -> reign to her death
- Cassynder I (* ???, † 3Ä 201) -> reign to his death
- Uriel IV (* ??? † 3Ä 248) -> reign to his death
- Andorak (* ??? † ???) -> short reign
- Cephorus II (* ???, † 3Ä 268) -> reign from 2Ä 248 to his death
- Uriel V (*???, † 3Ä 290) -> to his death
- Uriel VI (* 3Ä 285, † 3Ä 313) -> with help from Thonica at the beginning reign to his death
- Morihatha (* 3Ä 288, † 3Ä 339) -> reign to his death
- Pelagius IV (* 3Ä 314, † 3Ä 368) -> reign to his death

and then Uriel Septim VII, Jagar Tharn, Uriel Septim VII again and then Martin Septim. Are the birth and death dates correct? Or can someone add the missing ones? I didn't find correct sources about that, every page says something different. This what i showed is my version. Maybe we can find the truth together...

@Reman Karodiil-Question - actually we don't know anything about his origin, i think he is a whole blood Altmer, so maybe he gave this names himself - Karodiil could be in my eyes a normal Altmeri name. It could be possible that he call himself Reman, to show - i am friendly to the empire. We don't know much about the Summerset-isles but that Altmer are proud of themselves are for sure, but this also could change over the years. I mean they see that the empire are the ruler of Tamriel, why should they want to be unfriendly or enemies? I mean Firsthold and Cyrodiil are closer to each other than any other city on Summerset. A trade between both are very useful. And still we don't know how everything looks today the only source is the firsthold revolt and this book plays short after Morgiah arrived, so maybe between 3Ä 405-3Ä 410. Much can change...

Posted by: Tedders May 13 2008, 08:40 PM

QUOTE(Adventurous Putty @ May 12 2008, 07:36 PM) [snapback]12234630[/snapback]
Right, Ted, but is Karoodil an Altmer or a human? If Altmer, then why the "Reman" in the name? And if human, then why would he be ruling an Altmeri city-state?


Obviously, he's Altmer. There's no way he could be anything else. There are lots of reasons why he also has the name Reman, but I'm not really supposed to give all answers, am I?

QUOTE(Deepfighter @ May 13 2008, 02:53 AM) [snapback]12235554[/snapback]
Thx a lot for all you answers =) Especially of course Tedders response. I am definitive suprised to see here an developer of The Elder Scrolls series...it is amazing and an honour for me. You have created so much Lore, histories, etc., stuff we work since years with, incredible...and to support the Community with answers is great work, thx for creating this all and for helping us to understand the connections...oh my god i don't really know what i want to say more, it's still unbelievable to see you here


Absolutely my pleasure, DP. I don't come into the forums very much anymore, but I'm happy to help you out with your history questions. I appreciate you doing the work for the German TES fans.

QUOTE(Deepfighter @ May 13 2008, 02:53 AM) [snapback]12235554[/snapback]
1. Akorithi has a husband...the Imperial-Library mentioned two similar persons: Cameran and Cameron. Probably they are one and the same, but which name you can take as the on and only?


Camaron is correct. Cameron and Cameran are misprints.

QUOTE(Deepfighter @ May 13 2008, 02:53 AM) [snapback]12235554[/snapback]
2. The Septim Dynasty...oh this was fun i went with my friend through all the books about emperors of the third era, and we found a lot of different information’s. I will try to make an overview, with a few questions.

- Tiber Septim (*2Ä 827, † 3Ä 38) -> reign to his death
- Pelagius I (* ???, † 3Ä 41) -> reign to his death
- Kintyra I (* ???, † 3Ä 53) -> to her death
- Uriel I (* ???, † 3Ä 64) -> to his death
- Uriel II (* ???, † 3Ä 82) -> to his death
- Pelagius II (* ???, † 3Ä 99) -> to his death

ok but now during the time of the red diamond we have a lot of different sources.

- Antiochus I -> this man is for me a mystery...ok i mean this:

His birth: In the "Biography of the Wolf Queen" he is during the death of his father Pelagius II in the year 3Ä 99 - 28 years old -> Birthday: 3Ä 71. In the wolfs queen part III is the information that he is 43 years old when his dad died -> Birthday: 3Ä 56 - I thought in this way, his younger sister Potema was born in 3Ä 67 so it's more logical that 3Ä 56 is correct, right?

His death: The Wolfsqueen IV and the Madness of Pelagius says he dies in the year 3Ä 119, other sources 3Ä 120. In the brief history of a empire you find the date 3Ä 112. Can we see the last date as official or is it 3Ä 119?


I looked at the Brief History in the Imperial Library and I don't see the date 112. I think birth in 3E 56 and death in 3E 119 is correct.

QUOTE(Deepfighter @ May 13 2008, 02:53 AM) [snapback]12235554[/snapback]
- Uriel III (* 3Ä 97, † 3Ä 127) -> reign to his death
- Potema (* 3Ä 67 † 3Ä 137) -> reign to her death
- Cephorus I (* ???, † 3Ä 140) -> reign to his death
- Magnus I (* ???, † 3Ä 145) -> reign to his death but here i have another question...

His Wife was after the book the wolfs queen part III Hellena. In the madness of Pelagius is the name of his wife Utheilla. The last one is the mother Pelagius III's. Is Hellena his second wife? My theorie is that Utheilla died after she gave birth to Pelagius III and Magnus then took Hellena, could this be possible?

- Pelagius III (* 3Ä 119, † 3Ä 153) (i know that in the Wolfs queen part VII he has his birth at 3Ä 125)


Unfortunately, there's no way around the fact that the books contradict one another. In Wolf Queen, young Pelagius makes reference to his mother, who is Hellena, still being alive at the time of Potema's death. Madness says that Uthiella, a Direnni of Balfiera, is his mom; and Wolf Queen says that Hellena, Queen of Lilmoth is his mom. Madness is wrong: Pelagius did not have a Direnni mom. Tsathenes got Pelagius's birthdate and his early history completely wrong.

Posted by: Deepfighter May 14 2008, 07:01 AM

Haha - yes the secrets in The Elder Scrolls are quite uncountable, but this is good, this is really good. I mean otherwise we had nothing to think about if we had for everything a answer. This makes The Elder Scrolls how it is, still incredible.

Thanks again a lot. All my currently questions are dissolved. Still they are more but i forgot to make notes for all of them >.< (and i would guess - they are also uncountable )

So i wish you a great day and take care =)

Many greetings from sweden
Deepfighter

Posted by: Emerald Melios Aug 29 2009, 01:30 AM

QUOTE (proweler @ May 12 2008, 10:08 AM)
or how come a man is ruling in Summerset?


Summurset is a matriarchy?

Posted by: Verlox Aug 29 2009, 01:38 AM

QUOTE (Emerald Melios @ Aug 28 2009, 07:30 PM)
Summurset is a matriarchy?

Man = Human

Posted by: Mehrunes Dagon Aug 29 2009, 09:15 PM

Not that this really adds to the conversation, but indeed The Firsthold Revolt only makes sense if Reman is Altmer.

As for his surname, I can only think that the Reman dynasty at some point drifted into the Altmeri domain.

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