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Bethesda Game Studios Forums _ Elder Scrolls Lore _ Ta'Agra phrases and expressions

Posted by: Adanorcil Dec 26 2005, 10:17 PM

I recently started working on trying to understand Ta'Agra again. With the limited amount of examples we have this is very difficult. Still, I managed to get a few results. (See below.)

The actual reason for this post was that I think that words in a foreign should always be seen in context. And sadly, that context has gone lost. Most of the words/word chunks such as "literajo'iiliten" came from a set of pre-Morrowind interview in which Affa Mu spoke his native language. I tried to find these pages again, but not even Google seems able to find them. I can believe this has disappeared completely.

I would like to ask if anyone might still have these pages cached, saved or copied or could help me get the original wordings again. It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,


Eager linguistic scholar,
Adanorcil


------------------------------------------------------------------

Going off on a slight tangent, these are some of the words I think I have managed to decypher today.

- jekosiit: Since "-iit" is similar to the English suffix "-er" and we know that this word is an insult. Let your imagination run wild, I don't think actual translations are needed. The question remains whether "jekos" is a verb or a noun.

- Quote by Jobasha:
"Rabi" shows ownership. As you see, Jobasha writes with a yellow quill, made from a cheaply dyed cliff racer plume. Telling this, Jobasha could say "zwinthodurrarr rabi," which means "Jobasha has a yellow writing stick."

I assume we can deduce that the word "zwinthodurrarr" must therefore contain the elements "to write", "stick" and "yellow." I know the word "zwinthodurr" appears in the pages mentioned above. I find it more likely that the writing stick is mentioned again.

Therefore, "zwinthodurr" is likely to be the writing stick. Which is the stick itself and which is the writing part remains to be seen, but I reckon that (if the above is all correct, which is very unlikely) durr must be the stick, since the yellow suffix -arr was added to it. Perhaps zwintho comes from a verb comparable to jekos?


Posted by: Jobasha Dec 27 2005, 01:22 AM

((I don't have my notes on Ta'agra anymore, I don't remember what I was thinking, and I doubt anyone's taken it up officially. I might make an entirely new language up from "scratch," but it wouldn't be the same one.

A better (or at least more official) place to start would be with S'rathra's dialogue in Redguard.))

Posted by: Adanorcil Dec 27 2005, 01:47 PM

QUOTE(Jobasha @ Dec 27 2005, 12:22 AM)
((I don't have my notes on Ta'agra anymore, I don't remember what I was thinking, and I doubt anyone's taken it up officially. I might make an entirely new language up from "scratch," but it wouldn't be the same one.

A better (or at least more official) place to start would be with S'rathra's dialogue in Redguard.))


Unfortunately, but don't feel sorry. It was very amusing and in my opinion, fitting for the Khajiit. At least now I am certain I am not chasing ghosts. I can set my mind to other languages now. Thank you.

Posted by: Tiber Septim lV Dec 28 2005, 01:07 AM

QUOTE(Adanorcil @ Dec 27 2005, 04:47 AM)
Unfortunately, but don't feel sorry. It was very amusing and in my opinion, fitting for the Khajiit. At least now I am certain I am not chasing ghosts. I can set my mind to other languages now. Thank you.


You studie languages. I need help with the Dwemer language perhaps we can share notes.

Posted by: proweler Dec 28 2005, 01:11 AM

You might aswell give up. The Dwemeris Glyphs form letters, but not words. They apear to be placed completely at random. I don't think there is anything to be found. Many have tried and for a long time.


Posted by: Sinder Velvin Dec 28 2005, 08:08 AM

Proweler is right.

Posted by: Adanorcil Dec 28 2005, 01:00 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Dec 28 2005, 12:11 AM)
You might aswell give up. The Dwemeris Glyphs form letters, but not words. They apear to be placed completely at random. I don't think there is anything to be found. Many have tried and for a long time.


A very long time

Posted by: Maikuolan Dec 28 2005, 03:27 PM

Got the original URL? Tried parsing it through internet archive?

Posted by: Sinder Velvin Dec 28 2005, 06:28 PM

QUOTE(Maikuolan @ Dec 28 2005, 03:27 PM)
Got the original URL? Tried parsing it through internet archive?



... I don't get it. What URL?

Posted by: Adanorcil Dec 28 2005, 06:39 PM

QUOTE(Maikuolan @ Dec 28 2005, 02:27 PM)
Got the original URL? Tried parsing it through internet archive?


No, and apparently it is pointless. Thanks anyway.

Posted by: Penta Dec 30 2005, 12:23 AM

I looked for it but it isn't in the archive.
I did find this.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-57705.html

I don't know what these people were thinking but it's very funny.

Posted by: proweler Dec 30 2005, 12:54 AM

zi khajiit Jo-Vehk


Obvious.

Posted by: Penta Dec 30 2005, 01:01 AM

I searched on literajo'iiliten.
I tought the only matches could be this forum or the interview, but I was wrong.

I found the quest for the Journal of Tarhiel .

Posted by: proweler Dec 30 2005, 04:05 AM

While looking for Ta'agra I found something else. It did not excist in public but with some magic I managed to reconstruct the text from the Ruins of the Whirlingschool.

Jobashas words reincarnated

Why is this not listed at TIL?

While I'm drinking suger I might aswell have visions.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010905175556/www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/goods/posts0201.aspSometimes you see something nice

http://web.archive.org/web/20050222094359/www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/goods/posts0401_1.asp"I have a yellow writing utensil.”
"My brother has a wonderful girl."
"I wish I was my brother."

But it looks like that is all there is.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050215201419/www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/goods/posts0401_2.aspSkoomavision is nice. You really should try it, there is an answer to almost every question in it. Just don’t feed it to crowds, they don’t deserve the suger. They made the gods angry and now they all left us.

edit:

Ah sorry forgot to the points even though off-topic.

QUOTE(proweler @ Dec 29 2005, 10:05 PM)
Their culture came from their odd biology. They missed out on Y'ferr's decree, so Lorkhaj played a little trick on them...



Lorkhaj the Lunnar Latice. Lorkhaj the moons. Lorkhaj the heart of the world. The Temple Zero Society loves that stuff. Just never in plain words.

Posted by: Solin Dec 30 2005, 05:01 AM

Reconstructed by the same methods as used by Prowler:
<<Ahziss zwinthodurrarr rabi.>> "I have a yellow writing utensil."
<<Ahziss liter ajo'iiliten rabiba.>> "My brother has a wonderful girl."
<<Ahziss aaliter vakasash.>> "I wish I was my brother."

The Library had this gift somewhere within it's halls but, I can no longer find it anymore. (Originally posted on the story board by Jobasha)

Posted by: Xanathar Dec 30 2005, 05:30 AM

QUOTE
Why is this not listed at TIL?


I wonder myself...

About Cherim and Muzariah, I think the description can be put in B's Sermon Zero Analysis. Is that so, B?

QUOTE
At the time the P.G.E. was written, Elsweyr had not yet been conquered by the Empire. And Tiber Septim would never have been able to conquer Elsweyr if not for BBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZHH!!


I guess it's Numidium and Halls of Colossus. But it's off-topic.

Btw, Adanorcil... have luck with Redguard intro movie?

Posted by: Jobasha Dec 30 2005, 06:42 AM

QUOTE(Solin @ Dec 29 2005, 10:01 PM)
Reconstructed by the same methods as used by Prowler:
<<Ahziss zwinthodurrarr rabi.>> "I have a yellow writing utensil."
<<Ahziss liter ajo'iiliten rabiba.>> "My brother has a wonderful girl."
<<Ahziss aaliter vakasash.>> "I wish I was my brother."

The Library had this gift somewhere within it's halls but, I can no longer find it anymore. (Originally posted on the story board by Jobasha)



((Once I had a minimal grammar and dictionary for Ta'agra, I started "testing" it by trying to translate famous movie quotes. Those are from Sabrina.

But I don't remember the grammar that created those quotes. I remember bits and pieces... Rabi was "to have." Ahziss was something like "first-person genitive singular unspecific" or, as close as you can get in English, "my." That's about all I remember, though.

My original intent was to make Ta'agra darn weird. A hybrid inflectional/agglutinative language with some really odd features like rare cases (translative, instructive, inessive, etc), no articles, few (and highly unusual) pronouns, verb "moods" instead of tenses, etc.

If I re-made it again, I probably wouldn't make it so wierd. After all, if you make a language, it needs to be familiar enough for fans to actually talk in it. Not just a "ooooh, look at me, I made a really complex language no one else understands, therefore I'm smarter than you!"

Also, just FYI, here is S'rathra's dialogue from Redguard (thank you, Bink Player). I wrote it semi-phonetical, but I have a hearing loss... And this isn't how I imagine Ta'agra would be spelled.

QUOTE
Kreenya, Cyrus. Ettofarwalkah etcher ohkudorrr.
Smile, Cyrus. Here's he excuse you've been looking for.

Bahlee jeehater atatami.
All you mercenaries are the same.

Seechoh.
Sit.

Renreejee entunoor hekohwoh Imperial jah eeko pofamerrr ohtoht velk.
Ruffians in the night, heavy with Imperial coin, after some poor farmer who owes the kingdom his wife.

On trahjeer.
And he taketh away. For you. (I suspect the subtitles here are wrong, and "On trahjeer" (or "Ahn trajiir" in a more Khajiit-like spelling) just means "for you." Otherwise, that's one compact language.)

S'rathra korukohteretoh Hammerfell. Boshay inroht.
S'rathra knows you've said you'd never return to Hammerfell, but this seemed important.

S'rathra wohreghaht.
S'rathra was concerned.

Nookoh Duadeen. S'rathra eks. S'rathra eks sky'ell.
Don't worry about Duadeen. S'rathra fix. S'rathra fix anything.

Roleeter dek ka uderrr.
Your sister's disappearance draws a shudder.

Teport tekoh eh S'rathra nak convek warahbarahshee.
The port is full of them, and S'rathra's name goes far towards the price of passage.

Sri Duadeens jah, ehpak cohjah sreek. Pur S'rathra kadoo ahliter bekoh?
Keep Duadeen's retainer. It's a family affair, after all. Tell S'rathra, why did you never mention your sister before?

Kahkahturrr?
What kind?


Looks mostly isolating. Although you can't see it in the script, it doesn't sound tonal to me.

There's still room for some odd features in that example, even if it looks more like a "complex English cypher" than an actual alien language. There is obviously a little agglutination. There could be inflection, too, as long as you don't have to do vowel-matching.

Kreenya (Kriinya?) is smile (imperative, etc). Seecho (siicho?) is sit (ditto). Jah (Ja) is money or gold or coins or similar. Eks (Eks--no x in Daedric, remember) is "fix" or something close to that. Otherwise, even the vocabulary has quite a bit of wiggle room for someone who wanted to try and make a language consistent with that brief example.

Making languages from examples tends to make bad languages, though. Which is why I ignored the previous examples last time around. But in retrospect that was wrong of me. Published lore should take precedence. Especially when it sounds that cool. The voice actor did a great job with S'rathra.

Anyway, I might get around to re-creating some kind of Ta'agra, but it would be extremely unofficial. And I suspect there are only about two dozen people in the whole world who would care. But we could email each other in Ta'agra and confuse people and wave our freak flags high. It would be fun!

Well... Talk talk talk when we gonna eat? Or sleep? So, that's all for today.))

Posted by: Jobasha Dec 30 2005, 06:44 AM

QUOTE(Xanathar @ Dec 29 2005, 10:30 PM)
I guess it's Numidium and Halls of Colossus. But it's off-topic.



Someday Jobasha tells you about the house of the Big Walker.

Posted by: Xanathar Dec 30 2005, 06:45 AM

Wow, a great gift for lorists here. Thanks Douglas!

Posted by: Penta Dec 30 2005, 11:32 AM

Applause !!!

Posted by: Adanorcil Dec 30 2005, 01:53 PM

Oh, dear...

*faints*


EDIT: Alright, now I've recovered from the shock...

QUOTE
But I don't remember the grammar that created those quotes. I remember bits and pieces... Rabi was "to have." Ahziss was something like "first-person genitive singular unspecific" or, as close as you can get in English, "my." That's about all I remember, though.


Feels good to see there is some sense in it.

QUOTE
My original intent was to make Ta'agra darn weird. A hybrid inflectional/agglutinative language with some really odd features like rare cases (translative, instructive, inessive, etc), no articles, few (and highly unusual) pronouns, verb "moods" instead of tenses, etc.


And some linguistically advanced sense at that, too.

QUOTE
If I re-made it again, I probably wouldn't make it so wierd. After all, if you make a language, it needs to be familiar enough for fans to actually talk in it. Not just a "ooooh, look at me, I made a really complex language no one else understands, therefore I'm smarter than you!"


Strange and difficult as it may have been, I always thought that this language (even though we had only a very limited amount of examples) fitted the Khajiit extremely well. I thought it had a nice ring to it. A bit purring, very fitting for Khajiit.

I can't really describe it for the rest, it sounds very alien, which is good, but at the same time it retains the impression of being an actual, viable language, not just gibberish. Obscured as it maybe, when there is a structure in a language, it tends to stick out. I think we are always inclined to go looking for a verb, an object, subject, even if we don't know a language.

QUOTE
Also, just FYI, here is S'rathra's dialogue from Redguard (thank you, Bink Player). I wrote it semi-phonetical, but I have a hearing loss... And this isn't how I imagine Ta'agra would be spelled.


As I am writing this, I am downloading the file myself. I have already listened to it once. It sounds promising and more clear than I had expected.

I will be studying these notes too.

QUOTE
Anyway, I might get around to re-creating some kind of Ta'agra, but it would be extremely unofficial. And I suspect there are only about two dozen people in the whole world who would care. But we could email each other in Ta'agra and confuse people and wave our freak flags high. It would be fun!


Freak flags ahoy! Sounds very interesting.

Posted by: Erka Dec 30 2005, 02:02 PM

QUOTE(Adanorcil @ Dec 28 2005, 06:00 AM)
A very long time


But didnt that guy who made the vow of silence quest in Morrowind admit those where infact, just random dwemer letters?

Posted by: Penta Dec 30 2005, 02:51 PM

This isn't about the Dwemer language but the Khajiiti language, Ta'agra.

Posted by: proweler Dec 30 2005, 07:26 PM

QUOTE(Jobasha @ Dec 30 2005, 12:42 AM)
My original intent was to make Ta'agra darn weird. A hybrid inflectional/agglutinative language with some really odd features like rare cases (translative, instructive, inessive, etc), no articles, few (and highly unusual) pronouns, verb "moods" instead of tenses, etc.



I like the mood verbs, it would have been a great language for poetry.

Cheers!


Posted by: Adanorcil Dec 30 2005, 08:33 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Dec 30 2005, 06:26 PM)
I like the mood verbs, it would have been a great language for poetry.

Cheers!


Yes, it sounds like a very interesting idea to me too.

Posted by: B Dec 30 2005, 09:20 PM

QUOTE(Xanathar @ Dec 29 2005, 10:30 PM)
I wonder myself... 

About Cherim and Muzariah, I think the description can be put in B's Sermon Zero Analysis. Is that so, B?


Sure, it can be added.

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