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Bethesda Game Studios Forums _ Elder Scrolls Lore _ Symbolic college?

Posted by: FlyingFreddy'sFingers Aug 15 2007, 05:43 PM

QUOTE(Sermon 28)
When Vivec met the monster in battle again he saw the remains of three villages dripping from its feet. He took on his giant form and slew The Ruddy Man by way of the Symbolic Collage. Since he no longer trusted the Altmer of the sea, Vivec gave the carapace of the monster to the devout and loyal mystics of the Number Room.


What is the Symbolic college? Does this mean that Vivec slew the Ruddy Man through interpretive dance?

Posted by: proweler Aug 15 2007, 05:46 PM

The Scripture of the Sword, First:

'The sword, treated as a delicate meal, is the Symbolic Collage. It serves you well in the first half of life. Name one dynasty that knows this not.'
- Sermon Twenty-Three



Posted by: FlyingFreddy'sFingers Aug 15 2007, 05:48 PM

So Vivec killed him with his sword? That isn't as exciting as I hoped it would be.


Posted by: Brian S Aug 15 2007, 05:48 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 15 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]10761807[/snapback]
The Scripture of the Sword, First:

'The sword, treated as a delicate meal, is the Symbolic Collage. It serves you well in the first half of life. Name one dynasty that knows this not.'
- Sermon Twenty-Three

which is to say...Vehk slew the Ruddy Man by eating swords with a fork and knife?

Posted by: proweler Aug 15 2007, 05:52 PM

QUOTE(FlyingFreddy @ Aug 15 2007, 11:48 PM) [snapback]10761825[/snapback]
So Vivec killed him with his sword? That isn't as exciting as I hoped it would be.


It's in the picture of the fight.

Though the sword also has a symbolic meaning, but I'm no good with the sermons.

edit:

'The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies. Look on me as the exiled garden. All else is uncut weed.'


The sword is used to cut the myths of your enemy's, so fighting the Ruddy man in giant (full-god) form would suggest that he was not so much defeated by the use of force as by changing his history.

Posted by: Brian S Aug 15 2007, 05:53 PM

could sword have the same inuendo as a spear? He swallowed the Ruddy Man's "sword" and he said owy and ran away?

Posted by: MK Aug 15 2007, 06:05 PM

QUOTE(FlyingFreddy @ Aug 15 2007, 05:43 PM) [snapback]10761780[/snapback]
What is the Symbolic college? Does this mean that Vivec slew the Ruddy Man through interpretive dance?


'Collage', not 'college'.

Posted by: Brian S Aug 15 2007, 06:06 PM

so he took a bunch of pictues of towers and wheels and snakes and swords and make a collage, confusing the Ruddy Man?

So if the sword represents changing history, time, is the Symbolic Collage using the alteration of time wisely, "like a delicate meal?"

Posted by: FlyingFreddy'sFingers Aug 15 2007, 06:08 PM

Collage? That makes it even more confusing. And I'm very confused by those sermons already.

Posted by: Jormungandr Aug 15 2007, 06:11 PM

He took on his giant form and slew The Ruddy Man by way of the Symbolic Collage
Collage. As in, a mural or mosaic. What this is saying is that he killed the Ruddy Man in the way depicted in a picture.

...well, I think so, anyways

Posted by: proweler Aug 15 2007, 06:11 PM

QUOTE(FlyingFreddy @ Aug 16 2007, 12:08 AM) [snapback]10761968[/snapback]
Collage? That makes it even more confusing. And I'm very confused by those sermons already.


http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml.

As the Symbolic Collage is the Sword, and the Sword can be used to cut the creation myths of your enemies, it seems like providing another, better suited myth.

Or so I'd think. Philosophy never makes sense.

Posted by: MK Aug 15 2007, 06:12 PM

QUOTE(FlyingFreddy @ Aug 15 2007, 06:08 PM) [snapback]10761968[/snapback]
Collage? That makes it even more confusing. And I'm very confused by those sermons already.


If it helps, think of Jung's idea of Active Imagination. Also, though it wasn't my (or Vivec's) intention to be guilty by association, the concept of 'symbolic collage' exists in the present day.

Posted by: FlyingFreddy'sFingers Aug 15 2007, 06:18 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 15 2007, 02:12 PM) [snapback]10762012[/snapback]
If it helps, think of Jung's idea of Active Imagination. Also, though it wasn't my (or Vivec's) intention to be guilty by association, the concept of 'symbolic collage' exists in the present day.


Present day in the game, or present day in real life?

Posted by: MK Aug 15 2007, 06:25 PM

QUOTE(FlyingFreddy @ Aug 15 2007, 06:18 PM) [snapback]10762054[/snapback]
Present day in the game, or present day in real life?


Apologies; real life.

Posted by: FlyingFreddy'sFingers Aug 15 2007, 06:27 PM

This is all fascinating (as well as confusing, but I imagine that's the point of it). I've played Morrowind for 3 1/2-ish years, and I have just gotten around to reading the sermons.

Posted by: MK Aug 15 2007, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(FlyingFreddy @ Aug 15 2007, 06:27 PM) [snapback]10762113[/snapback]
This is all fascinating (as well as confusing, but I imagine that's the point of it). I've played Morrowind for 3 1/2-ish years, and I have just gotten around to reading the sermons.


I dug something out of my notes for the Sermons that may help:

"blah blah blah i shall be a warrior so that my son may be a farmer so that his son may be a poet blah blah founding fathers had the best quotes thomas jefferson worshipped the devil blah blah the new house is beautiful i'm glad to say getting tired at work slaughtering my story divorcing myself from it leaving it for symbolic escapades into the pedestrian least i have robot mary-in-space voiceover program that allows me to hear as i fly through the lower height 'i am having trouble opening the star-bar for reinforcements commander i would like to take this time to apologize for the inconvenience' s'funny when you hear it i know how to [NUMINIT] but what the hell is the collage thinking whose taste run along admirable lines until this is all mum's the word of course but i but i but i but i know where beauty sleeps that's another great quote written in lipstick on the chest of the britpunk loser wearing the bra of the girlfriend that left him for me"

...

...maybe.

-MK

Posted by: Brian S Aug 15 2007, 06:49 PM

to quote Vehk's teachings: "That helps little."

Posted by: gilan Aug 15 2007, 06:51 PM

I always figured the sword was really a pen.

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 15 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]10761807[/snapback]
The Scripture of the Sword, First:

'The sword, treated as a delicate meal, is the Symbolic Collage. http://www.princetonacademy.org/weblogs/news/archives/Images/back%20to%20school-thumb.JPG Name one dynasty that knows this not.'
- Sermon Twenty-Three


Posted by: Mortazo Aug 15 2007, 06:54 PM

Wow...thanks for posting some of the strange fragments of your mind MK...again. God only knows we need more spam here. anyway:

QUOTE(gilan @ Aug 15 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]10762224[/snapback]
I always figured the sword was really a pen.


sounds interesting, I agree.

Posted by: proweler Aug 15 2007, 07:11 PM

QUOTE(gilan @ Aug 16 2007, 12:51 AM) [snapback]10762224[/snapback]
I always figured the sword was really a pen.


That's why you need when you're rewriting history yea.

Posted by: Brian S Aug 15 2007, 07:12 PM

can we differ here between rewriting history and altering history?

Posted by: Albides Aug 15 2007, 07:21 PM

QUOTE(Jormungandr @ Aug 16 2007, 08:11 AM) [snapback]10761996[/snapback]
He took on his giant form and slew The Ruddy Man by way of the Symbolic Collage
Collage. As in, a mural or mosaic. What this is saying is that he killed the Ruddy Man in the way depicted in a picture.


More like he killed the Ruddy Man by writing a story about him.

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 15 2007, 08:39 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 15 2007, 05:52 PM) [snapback]10761859[/snapback]
It's in the picture of the fight.

Though the sword also has a symbolic meaning, but I'm no good with the sermons.

edit:

'The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies. Look on me as the exiled garden. All else is uncut weed.'


The sword is used to cut the myths of your enemy's, so fighting the Ruddy man in giant (full-god) form would suggest that he was not so much defeated by the use of force as by changing his history.

Fits Vivec peachily, eh? A lot of Morrowind's "History" is actually fabrication, is it not?

Posted by: CatScratches Aug 15 2007, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(Mortazo @ Aug 15 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]10762237[/snapback]
Wow...thanks for posting some of the strange fragments of your mind MK...again. God only knows we need more spam here. anyway:
sounds interesting, I agree.


do not speak to the master like that, u should apologize

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 15 2007, 10:31 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 15 2007, 03:31 PM) [snapback]10762125[/snapback]
I dug something out of my notes for the Sermons that may help:

"blah blah blah i shall be a warrior so that my son may be a farmer so that his son may be a poet blah blah founding fathers had the best quotes thomas jefferson worshipped the devil blah blah the new house is beautiful i'm glad to say getting tired at work slaughtering my story divorcing myself from it leaving it for symbolic escapades into the pedestrian least i have robot mary-in-space voiceover program that allows me to hear as i fly through the lower height 'i am having trouble opening the star-bar for reinforcements commander i would like to take this time to apologize for the inconvenience' s'funny when you hear it i know how to [NUMINIT] but what the hell is the collage thinking whose taste run along admirable lines until this is all mum's the word of course but i but i but i but i know where beauty sleeps that's another great quote written in lipstick on the chest of the britpunk loser wearing the bra of the girlfriend that left him for me"

...
...maybe.

-MK


Ah.

Sooo, what, we're getting into monolithic haunting grounds of declining society?


(Is the Collage a year-by-year dictation of the laws of nature? EX: Things are just bound to get worse.)


Because that's what I seem to get from that fathoming rambling of words.

Posted by: FlyingFreddy'sFingers Aug 16 2007, 12:20 AM

So, am I to understand that Vivec didn't kill the Ruddy Man, he just caused him to stop existing by... rewriting history or something? Or did he just kill him with his sword like in the picture? I'm pretty lost.

Posted by: Albides Aug 16 2007, 12:29 AM

QUOTE(FlyingFreddy @ Aug 16 2007, 02:20 PM) [snapback]10763895[/snapback]
So, am I to understand that Vivec didn't kill the Ruddy Man, he just caused him to stop existing by... rewriting history or something? Or did he just kill him with his sword like in the picture? I'm pretty lost.

See MK's explanation:

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 16 2007, 08:12 AM) [snapback]10762012[/snapback]
If it helps, think of Jung's idea of Active Imagination. Also, though it wasn't my (or Vivec's) intention to be guilty by association, the concept of 'symbolic collage' exists in the present day.


Active Imagination refers to the process by which feelings are turned into symbols, stories or characters. If he killed him by way of symbolic collage, it was through turning emotion into a weapon. Or, the Ruddy Man himself was an emotion, killed through stream-of-consciousness therapy writing, an example of which MK showed you on the previous page.

Do you recall how Vivec shrugged off city face? I have no time for one more imaginary analogy of an unknown incident. What does that say about the historicity of the series of monsters he defeated?

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 12:51 AM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 15 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]10763944[/snapback]
See MK's explanation:
Active Imagination refers to the process by which feelings are turned into symbols, stories or characters. If he killed him by way of symbolic collage, it was through turning emotion into a weapon. Or, the Ruddy Man himself was an emotion, killed through stream-of-consciousness therapy writing, an example of which MK showed you on the previous page.

Do you recall how Vivec shrugged off city face? I have no time for one more imaginary analogy of an unknown incident. What does that say about the historicity of the series of monsters he defeated?


So all of his "children" were...metaphors/symbols?

Posted by: Albides Aug 16 2007, 05:48 AM

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 16 2007, 02:51 PM) [snapback]10764023[/snapback]
So all of his "children" were...metaphors/symbols?

That's a rhetorical question, right?

Posted by: Wolf101 Aug 16 2007, 07:18 AM

And here I was thinking that of all seven of Vivecs children, Ruddy Man was the least difficult to comprehend.

QUOTE
The Ruddy Man, of the eight monsters, was the least complicated. He made those who wore him into mighty killers and nothing more. He existed in the physical. Only geography makes him special.
- http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#28

Why fight him by means of history re-write (or whatever it was) when he's purely physical?

Posted by: Xyber02 Aug 16 2007, 10:00 AM

QUOTE(Wolf101 @ Aug 16 2007, 05:18 AM) [snapback]10765165[/snapback]
And here I was thinking that of all seven of Vivecs children, Ruddy Man was the least difficult to comprehend.

Why fight him by means of history re-write (or whatever it was) when he's purely physical?

It is a world of myth and magic.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 06:47 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 16 2007, 02:48 AM) [snapback]10764847[/snapback]
That's a rhetorical question, right?


Huh?

Posted by: MK Aug 16 2007, 07:28 PM

QUOTE(Mortazo @ Aug 15 2007, 06:54 PM) [snapback]10762237[/snapback]
Wow...thanks for posting some of the strange fragments of your mind MK...again. God only knows we need more spam here.


Are you serious?

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 16 2007, 12:29 AM) [snapback]10763944[/snapback]
See MK's explanation:
Active Imagination refers to the process by which feelings are turned into symbols, stories or characters. If he killed him by way of symbolic collage, it was through turning emotion into a weapon. Or, the Ruddy Man himself was an emotion, killed through stream-of-consciousness therapy writing, an example of which MK showed you on the previous page.


Especially as Active Imagination is bringing one's inner Horus back to life, yes.

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 16 2007, 06:47 PM) [snapback]10769242[/snapback]
Huh?


Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again.

See the Buddha, Kill the Buddha. Only different.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 07:50 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 16 2007, 04:28 PM) [snapback]10769452[/snapback]
Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again.

See the Buddha, Kill the Buddha. Only different.


So...would that make Vhek the bad guy?

I was so sure that it had to do with some sort of morale decline.

Posted by: Albides Aug 16 2007, 07:51 PM

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 17 2007, 09:50 AM) [snapback]10769554[/snapback]
So...would that make Vhek the bad guy?

No! It makes him the liberated guy.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 07:52 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 16 2007, 04:51 PM) [snapback]10769557[/snapback]
No! It makes him the liberated guy.


Ohhh, well that seems rather...injusticed.

If you ask me. Maybe I don't grasp the concept as well as I should. I can see why he'd HAVE to kill them, though.

Posted by: MK Aug 16 2007, 07:57 PM

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 16 2007, 07:52 PM) [snapback]10769568[/snapback]
Ohhh, well that seems rather...injusticed.

If you ask me. Maybe I don't grasp the concept as well as I should. I can see why he'd HAVE to kill them, though.


"There is once more the case of the symbolic and barren. The true prince that is cursed and demonized will be adored at last with full hearts. According to the Codes of Mephala there can be no official art, only fixation points of complexity that will erase from the awe of the people given enough time. This is a secret that hides another. An impersonal survival is not the way of the ruling king. Embrace the art of the people and marry it and by that I mean secretly have it murdered."

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 16 2007, 04:57 PM) [snapback]10769582[/snapback]
"There is once more the case of the symbolic and barren. The true prince that is cursed and demonized will be adored at last with full hearts. According to the Codes of Mephala there can be no official art, only fixation points of complexity that will erase from the awe of the people given enough time. This is a secret that hides another. An impersonal survival is not the way of the ruling king. Embrace the art of the people and marry it and by that I mean secretly have it murdered."


So it was kind of a necessity?

Posted by: Albides Aug 16 2007, 08:09 PM

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 17 2007, 10:01 AM) [snapback]10769604[/snapback]
So it was kind of a necessity?

The way of the hermit is to retreat from the world, but "An impersonal survival is not the way of the ruling king". The way of the slave is to continue working in the same job you hate, with the friend you barely tolerate, the car you use more out of habit than necessity, and then you come home to play the game that wastes your time. Vivec rises above his troubles. He does that no by being a slave to life, but taking control of it.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 08:21 PM

And the Ruddy Man was like...the concept of bondage?

(EX: He made those who wore him killers and nothing more?)

So by out-phasing (casting?) himself to a life of uselessness, or slave, he rose above it, thus the need to kill his children, not by killing just for killing, but rising above them?

Like I mean...uh...how to say this...

Give me a moment here, folks...

Posted by: proweler Aug 16 2007, 08:23 PM

It's murder in the way that new pop-culture replaces the old pop-culture.

edit:

Common theme really. Ourobourous, symbol of creativity, a form that is always new, ect.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 08:26 PM

But you don't see everyone "doing the Vhek", so to say.

Posted by: proweler Aug 16 2007, 08:32 PM

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 17 2007, 02:26 AM) [snapback]10769707[/snapback]
But you don't see everyone "doing the Vhek", so to say.


That's because it's 'alike', not the same.

Posted by: MK Aug 16 2007, 08:32 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 16 2007, 08:23 PM) [snapback]10769696[/snapback]
It's murder in the way that new pop-culture replaces the old pop-culture.


SYNODEITIES: Thor (Norse), Hercules (Greek), Jesus (Christian), Kal-El (Pop Culture), Neo (Post Modern Pop Culture)

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 16 2007, 08:26 PM) [snapback]10769707[/snapback]
But you don't see everyone "doing the Vhek", so to say.


You sure? The forums show me something different.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 08:35 PM

Pretty sure.

I mean, perhaps those of Mephala, or Sanguine, but I can't see anybody (TES or real world-wise) doing anything that is such as pronged-religious as you described.

Posted by: proweler Aug 16 2007, 08:36 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 17 2007, 02:32 AM) [snapback]10769729[/snapback]
SYNODEITIES: Thor (Norse), Hercules (Greek), Jesus (Christian), Kal-El (Pop Culture), Neo (Post Modern Pop Culture)


Richard the Lionheart and Saladin (Chivalric)

edit:

Forgot the other half.

Posted by: MK Aug 16 2007, 08:37 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 16 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]10769751[/snapback]
King Arthur (Chivalric)


BARBELiTH (Viral)

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 08:39 PM

It's like writing a bible without using the words God, or, divine.

Why can't I just get out what I'm trying to say...

Posted by: MK Aug 16 2007, 08:46 PM

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 16 2007, 08:39 PM) [snapback]10769768[/snapback]
It's like writing a bible without using the words God, or, divine.

Why can't I just get out what I'm trying to say...


The secret of language is this: it is immobile.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 08:48 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 16 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]10769803[/snapback]
The secret of language is this: it is immobile.


The trick of language is this: it can still escape you. No matter how immobile.

Hell, if I could think of one thing language was, it'd be a shadow.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Aug 16 2007, 08:56 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 16 2007, 08:09 PM) [snapback]10769644[/snapback]
The way of the hermit is to retreat from the world, but "An impersonal survival is not the way of the ruling king". The way of the slave is to continue working in the same job you hate, with the friend you barely tolerate, the car you use more out of habit than necessity, and then you come home to play the game that wastes your time. Vivec rises above his troubles. He does that no by being a slave to life, but taking control of it.

So MK is Bob Dylan?

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 08:58 PM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Aug 16 2007, 05:56 PM) [snapback]10769865[/snapback]
So MK is Bob Dylan?


More like a Satan spawn-child of Ghandi and Manson, and even Buddha, on L27 and full to the brim with Jack. I mean that, of course, in the most cryptic way possible.

D...David Bowie?

No.
God no.

Posted by: Albides Aug 16 2007, 09:03 PM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Aug 17 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]10769865[/snapback]
So MK is Bob Dylan?

More like David Bowie, who is reborn again and again. Quietly though. He might hate me for saying that.

Posted by: proweler Aug 16 2007, 09:06 PM

QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 17 2007, 02:48 AM) [snapback]10769813[/snapback]
QUOTE(MK @ Aug 17 2007, 02:46 AM) [snapback]10769803[/snapback]
The secret of language is this: it is immobile.


The trick of language is this: it can still escape you. No matter how immobile.

Hell, if I could think of one thing language was, it'd be a shadow.


It's from the Sermons.

He means; it has a fixed meaning or it fixes something in place. It can create history in the sense that people start to believe it to have happened. "If a tree falls in a forest, did the tree really fall? Not unless the news papers write about it."

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 17 2007, 03:03 AM) [snapback]10769906[/snapback]
QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Aug 17 2007, 02:56 AM) [snapback]10769865[/snapback]
So MK is Bob Dylan?

More like David Bowie, who is reborn again and again. Quietly though. He might hate me for saying that.





I was thinking of Edgar Allan Poe.

Posted by: Ironed Maidens Aug 16 2007, 09:08 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 16 2007, 06:06 PM) [snapback]10769920[/snapback]
He means; it has a fixed meaning or it fixes something in place. It can create history in the sense that people start to believe it to have happened. "If a tree falls in a forest, did the tree really fall? Not unless the news papers write about it."


Perhaps, but like I said, it can still escape you (history, present, future, whatever).

Posted by: Mortazo Aug 16 2007, 09:26 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 16 2007, 08:32 PM) [snapback]10769729[/snapback]
SYNODEITIES: Thor (Norse), Hercules (Greek), Jesus (Christian), Kal-El (Pop Culture), Neo (Post Modern Pop Culture)


I fail to see how Jesus fits into that group. Thoguh modern Protestants may make him out like that, Jesus doesn't fit the classic "hero" archetype. He was a lover, not a fighter. I'd like to say Vehk is like Jesus, but he isn't. The only person Vehk loves is himself.

And btw, Thor and Hercules were developed independently, one was not based off the other. They were both based off the "hero" mold developed by proto-humans. Other isolated cultures also developed similar hero myths seemingly independent from eachother.

Posted by: MK Aug 16 2007, 09:33 PM

QUOTE(Mortazo @ Aug 16 2007, 09:26 PM) [snapback]10770015[/snapback]
I fail to see how Jesus fits into that group. Thoguh modern Protestants may make him out like that, Jesus doesn't fit the classic "hero" archetype. He was a lover, not a fighter. I'd like to say Vehk is like Jesus, but he isn't. The only person Vehk loves is himself.

And btw, Thor and Hercules were developed independently, one was not based off the other. They were both based off the "hero" mold developed by proto-humans. Other isolated cultures also developed similar hero myths seemingly independent from eachother.


I...I can't begin to point out where you are wrong, since it seems to happen in every single sentence you've written.

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 16 2007, 09:43 PM

QUOTE(Mortazo @ Aug 16 2007, 09:26 PM) [snapback]10770015[/snapback]
I fail to see how Jesus fits into that group. Thoguh modern Protestants may make him out like that, Jesus doesn't fit the classic "hero" archetype. He was a lover, not a fighter. I'd like to say Vehk is like Jesus, but he isn't. The only person Vehk loves is himself.

And btw, Thor and Hercules were developed independently, one was not based off the other. They were both based off the "hero" mold developed by proto-humans. Other isolated cultures also developed similar hero myths seemingly independent from eachother.

yes and no, while they were developed independently, some Norse and greek myths share sorce material. Thor is actually a meld of Zeus (lighting) and Hepphaestos (Hammers, fire, etc).

well, as for the Jusus hero archetype, it seemed more of a metaphorical hero, where instead of being a warrior-hero, he seemed more like a Dionysos-hero, where he goes and, instead of smiting, speaks to people, comforting them when they need it most.

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 16 2007, 09:33 PM) [snapback]10770044[/snapback]
I...I can't begin to point out where you are wrong, since it seems to happen in every single sentence you've written.

I can, and did, and it was really only one bit, not every scentence.

Posted by: Crimson Paladin Aug 16 2007, 09:48 PM

It was said that Vivec made an alliance with the Dreugh to fight the Akaviri invasion. Could that have any connection to his triumph over the Ruddy Man?

Posted by: Shades Aug 16 2007, 09:50 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 16 2007, 08:33 PM) [snapback]10770044[/snapback]
I...I can't begin to point out where you are wrong, since it seems to happen in every single sentence you've written.
He spooked the effort out of you? Low stamina.

QUOTE(Lycanthropic_Nerev @ Aug 16 2007, 08:43 PM) [snapback]10770097[/snapback]
yes and no, while they were developed independently, some Norse and greek myths share sorce material. Thor is actually a meld of Zeus (lighting) and Hepphaestos (Hammers, fire, etc).
Then what was the original, and how did both cultures have access to it?

QUOTE
well, as for the Jusus hero archetype, it seemed more of a metaphorical hero, where instead of being a warrior-hero, he seemed more like a Dionysos-hero, where he goes and, instead of smiting, speaks to people, comforting them when they need it most.
Did you just compare Dionysos to Jesus? This will be a tough sell, do continue.

Posted by: Mortazo Aug 16 2007, 09:50 PM

QUOTE(Lycanthropic_Nerev @ Aug 16 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]10770097[/snapback]
yes and no, while they were developed independently, some Norse and greek myths share sorce material.


Yes, the proto-human myths. But then again, there are many Japanese, Inca, Arabic (just to name a few) cultures that have similar "epic hero" myths deriving from proto-human myths (I'm sure).

The only person on MK's lsit that bears any real semlince to Jesus is Neo, as both fit the "messiah" archetype. That and Jesus was real. He may not have been divine, but it is a fact he existed. Thor, Hercules and Superman all fit the "epic hero" Archetypes.

That would be like me saying The Buddha and Zeus are the same thing. If you think pacifist Buddha and Cheats-on-his=wife Zeus are similar, then you're as deluded as thinking that Thor and Jesus are echoes of eachother.

Posted by: Xyber02 Aug 16 2007, 10:01 PM

He has a double-edged sword extending out of his mouth.

Posted by: Adventurous Putty Aug 16 2007, 10:01 PM

Well, Mort, while I totally agree with you, you have to be fair to at least acknowledge that Hercules and other hero figures like King Arthur may have existed, but not in the way they are portrayed.

Though I totally disagree with portraying Jesus as one of them.

Posted by: Albides Aug 16 2007, 10:03 PM

Sir James Frazer and Joseph Campbell disagreed.

Posted by: Mortazo Aug 16 2007, 10:21 PM

QUOTE(Adventurous Putty @ Aug 16 2007, 10:01 PM) [snapback]10770201[/snapback]
Well, Mort, while I totally agree with you, you have to be fair to at least acknowledge that Hercules and other hero figures like King Arthur may have existed, but not in the way they are portrayed.

Though I totally disagree with portraying Jesus as one of them.


Well, though it is definitely possible Hecules, King Aurthur etc existed, it is a fact that Jesus was a real person (and also a fact that The Buddha was real).

I think the personality cult that developed around Jesus really destroyed his image. He was a wise philosopher, just as wise as The Buddha, but the stupid Romans (who I am afraid are my ancestors) decided to turn Christianity into a personality cult. This allows people like MK to practically worship Buddha (even though real Buddhists know he is not a god at all) and treat Jesus like some stupid Thor-esque piece of fiction, totally ingnoring the amount of wisdom he poured out. It annoys me, I'm no Christian, but I respect what Jesus taught just as much as I respect many other philosophers over the centuries.

Posted by: proweler Aug 16 2007, 10:28 PM

QUOTE(Mortazo @ Aug 17 2007, 04:21 AM) [snapback]10770332[/snapback]
(...)



You can say exactly the same about what was originally behind Thor, Hercules, King Arthur, Kal-El and Neo

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 17 2007, 04:29 AM) [snapback]10770386[/snapback]
Morrowind': obvious novel of the Prime Deliverer. See also: "Talk to me when you own a liquor store."


I remember that discussion.

QUOTE(Shades @ Aug 17 2007, 03:50 AM) [snapback]10770138[/snapback]
He spooked the effort out of you? Low stamina.


It's been done before. See above.

Posted by: MK Aug 16 2007, 10:29 PM

Stick with Horus and every one of them falls into place: bridge between life and death, divine and material, and super turbo mega meme.

Greco-Roman Winefoot and Christian Savior meet by way of the Nephilic Tarot of the Fool. See also: mystery cults devoted to celebration-as-precursor-to-revolution. See also: Eucharist, or "bread as life and wine as life-worth-living". See also: "Vegetation God". See also: "Talk to me when you own a liquor store."

Superman is more real than anyone speaking here, and the "El", "Cradle as Phase to Change", "adoptive parents", et al will give Hebrew rope to anyone that stares more than ten seconds. Under "CaPtC", also file Hercules. See also: "Ma and Pa Kent as Alcemene and Amphitryon." See also: "Talk to me when you own a liquor store."


'Morrowind': obvious novel of the Prime Deliverer. See also: "Talk to me when you own a liquor store."


Symbolic Collage used to kill ill-informed draperies, indeed.




Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 16 2007, 10:32 PM

QUOTE(Shades @ Aug 16 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]10770138[/snapback]
He spooked the effort out of you? Low stamina.

Then what was the original, and how did both cultures have access to it?

Did you just compare Dionysos to Jesus? This will be a tough sell, do continue.

The original was the indo-European peoples who migrated to all parts of Indo-European areas. So while they were at one time the same, over time certain characters were changed, like how the proto-thunder god was one eing and the proto-smith god was one being, in one the smith-god melded with fire and in the other the smith-god melded with thunder (Greek and Norse, respectively).

Yes, I did. It's a bit complicated. But think of this, half the people in this world to comfort themselves turn to narcotics, the other to kind people who can give them advice and support. either way, they make you feel better.

Okay, that didn't sound how I meant it to. But in either case, they are a very human-centric divinity, almost exclusively using their power to somehow benefit mankind specifically. I'm a bit tired and I haven't thought about this for a few months, so I may have a better explanation tomorrow.

Posted by: Crimson Paladin Aug 16 2007, 11:00 PM

Is the Symbolic College like the Arcane University?

Posted by: FlyingFreddy'sFingers Aug 16 2007, 11:02 PM

Actually, it's symbolic collage, which I thought was merely a typo.

As Jormungandr said:

QUOTE(Jormungandr)
Collage. As in, a mural or mosaic.

Posted by: gilan Aug 16 2007, 11:19 PM

QUOTE(Mortazo @ Aug 16 2007, 08:26 PM) [snapback]10770015[/snapback]
I fail to see how Jesus fits into that group. Thoguh modern Protestants may make him out like that, Jesus doesn't fit the classic "hero" archetype. He was a lover, not a fighter.

Who said heroes had to be fighters? A hero's life is one that overcomes, and the best heroes inspire others. They are exemplary humans, they embody ideals we smallfolk would do well to emulate. The same could be said for other father/teacher deities.

Posted by: Nalion Aug 17 2007, 02:18 AM

The True Hero must be Love all through.

The Lover is the highest country.

A true hero makes it so that nobody can anymore fall victim to the sword.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#35

Posted by: Cid89 Aug 17 2007, 08:19 AM

I recommend to anyone who thinks Jesus is not a hero figure to read the Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell (probably also covered in The Hero with a Thousand Faces, but there's a ton of other goodness in Power of Myth). The hero section makes it really clear as to the types of heroes as Campbell views them and also makes a few good mentions of Jesus, if memory serves me right.

Posted by: Murr'pau the Mjau Aug 17 2007, 08:43 AM

QUOTE(Mortazo @ Aug 17 2007, 03:26 AM) [snapback]10770015[/snapback]
I'd like to say Vehk is like Jesus, but he isn't. The only person Vehk loves is himself.


More like Prince Siddharta

Posted by: Xyber02 Aug 17 2007, 09:28 AM

Jesus was and is a powerful man, willingly given the same temptations and limitations we all face.

I'll bypass whether you believe in the Messiah or not, that is neither here nor there nor allowed. However, I'll make the assumption you would be referring to the Bible, unless you have some ancient or arcane manuscript that I don't. (Who knows.) The same lines that would have him preaching love and good lives will have Jesus putting him at the same level as God himself. I don't think people truly understand the magnitude of "I am". This was said to a society where that was the height of blasphemy, something like the three unforgivable curses. You just don't do it. That alone makes him a very, very dangerous man.

It's said his words are a double-edged sword. The first and the last. The one who lives. He who holds the keys to death and Hades. Mere words commanded the water he walked on. He doesn't need a sword or battle to prove himself, as Nalion shows. Thor and his wittle likke hammer? Pah. A most astoundingly excellent version of the Tower Tamriel could ever see.

"I am" holds the same arrogance that Vehk holds. The "I" is the Tower. That is the same type of arrogance I have when I change Mundus.

You'll forgive the self reference, but I'm pointing to several things in one post.

QUOTE(Xyber02 @ Aug 10 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]10722446[/snapback]
Think about your actions and how the world reacts. Would the Emperor die if you decide to stay in your cell?

If anyone is to ever be included, it would be Jesus.

Posted by: proweler Aug 17 2007, 10:19 AM

QUOTE(gilan @ Aug 17 2007, 05:19 AM) [snapback]10770690[/snapback]
They are exemplary humans, they embody ideals we smallfolk would do well to emulate. The same could be said for other father/teacher deities.


Not always. Anti-Hero's are Hero's as well.


Posted by: syronj Aug 17 2007, 10:35 AM

When I first started playing "Morrowind" in early 2005, I was skeptical of the Sermons, thinking they were written by some anonymous priests as a way of keeping the faithful in line, and were gibberish.

Gradually I became a literalist of the TES books, thinking that Vivec did achieve apotheosis and changed reality into one where Vivec the god existed before his mortal birth. I managed to gloss over the passages with the various monsters like the city-face, the lunar beings, Ruddy Man, and all. Presumably they existed physically the same way that the Daedra existed.

Now you're saying the monsters shouldn't be taken literally, as corporeal beings? They're only issues that Vivec was working through? It's a confusing situation.

Posted by: proweler Aug 17 2007, 11:01 AM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 17 2007, 04:35 PM) [snapback]10772854[/snapback]
Now you're saying the monsters shouldn't be taken literally, as corporeal beings? They're only issues that Vivec was working through? It's a confusing situation.


The Fourth Monster, the Pocket Cabal that was locked into the Dome headed Demon seems to be a reference to the Pocket Guide to the Empire that was thrown into the garbage can.

1. Moon-Axle
2. Treasure Wood Sword (Ebony Sword)
3. Horde Mountain (Mass Combat?)
4. The Pocket Cabal. (PGE)
5. Ruddy Man.
6. City-Face. (Old design of Vivec?)
7. Lie Rock (Vivec's dung)

Posted by: Duskweaver Aug 17 2007, 03:25 PM

QUOTE
Now you're saying the monsters shouldn't be taken literally, as corporeal beings? They're only issues that Vivec was working through? It's a confusing situation.

It's only confusing if you think the two explanations (the physical/literal and the metaphorical/psychological) are mutually exclusive. But TES is "a world of myth and magic", a dream in the mind of God: symbols and metaphors are not distinct from objective reality.

Just look at Lie Rock. Seems pretty damn physical to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't created from Vivec's subconscious, though.

Posted by: syronj Aug 17 2007, 03:30 PM

QUOTE(Duskweaver @ Aug 17 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]10774698[/snapback]
It's only confusing if you think the two explanations (the physical/literal and the metaphorical/psychological) are mutually exclusive. But TES is "a world of myth and magic", a dream in the mind of God: symbols and metaphors are not distinct from objective reality.

Just look at Lie Rock. Seems pretty damn physical to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't created from Vivec's subconscious, though.


Interesting; thanks.

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 17 2007, 03:43 PM

This seems to have a lot to do with the whole "gods are bound by their myths" bit. Mehrunes Dagon is incapable of not being destructive. Molag bal has no choice but to rape people, so these mini-gods that Vivec made can be ddestroyed by erasing their spehere, or change them by rewriting it?

But it seems like, if the sphere is remembered, they will not completely change.

Posted by: OdysseusB Aug 17 2007, 06:27 PM

QUOTE(Duskweaver @ Aug 17 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]10774698[/snapback]
It's only confusing if you think the two explanations (the physical/literal and the metaphorical/psychological) are mutually exclusive. But TES is "a world of myth and magic", a dream in the mind of God: symbols and metaphors are not distinct from objective reality.

Just look at Lie Rock. Seems pretty damn physical to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't created from Vivec's subconscious, though.

Also, if I'm understanding the sermons correctly, this pairing of opposites ties into the concept of transcending this concept of opposites through the use of taking both into your nature, something Vehk does pretty well.

You know, the whole male and female, God and Man, Poet and Warrior thing. The more I look at Vehk, the more I'm convinced that MK is a genious with his subtle tie-ins to certain concepts of transcendance.

Quick little Edit: All followers are those that are bound by their myths. The daedra are just as much followers as we are - they must move within their realms of myth. To break out of their myths is to transcend, and they must break out of the pairing and seperating of the world and realize all is one/chim.

And hi all.

Posted by: syronj Aug 17 2007, 07:14 PM

QUOTE(OdysseusB @ Aug 17 2007, 06:27 PM) [snapback]10776009[/snapback]
Also, if I'm understanding the sermons correctly, this pairing of opposites ties into the concept of transcending this concept of opposites through the use of taking both into your nature, something Vehk does pretty well.

You know, the whole male and female, God and Man, Poet and Warrior thing. The more I look at Vehk, the more I'm convinced that MK is a genious with his subtle tie-ins to certain concepts of transcendance.

Quick little Edit: All followers are those that are bound by their myths. The daedra are just as much followers as we are - they must move within their realms of myth. To break out of their myths is to transcend, and they must break out of the pairing and seperating of the world and realize all is one/chim.

And hi all.


Interesting post. Something to keep in mind is that the Daedra and Aedra can't break out of their myths, and can't transcend. Only the mortals can do that. The gods are limited by their roles.

Posted by: Mortazo Aug 17 2007, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(OdysseusB @ Aug 17 2007, 06:27 PM) [snapback]10776009[/snapback]
Also, if I'm understanding the sermons correctly, this pairing of opposites ties into the concept of transcending this concept of opposites through the use of taking both into your nature, something Vehk does pretty well.


The whole opposites thing is probably the underlying theme of MK's lore. The gods, limited by their opposites must make way for the Nu-man, one who is not tethered by his antithesis and his own self-imposed limitations. The entire TES universe is actually jsut one being being split down the middle, its two sides (Anu and Padomay) fighting it out.

Posted by: Albides Aug 17 2007, 09:13 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 18 2007, 01:01 AM) [snapback]10773004[/snapback]
The Fourth Monster, the Pocket Cabal that was locked into the Dome headed Demon seems to be a reference to the Pocket Guide to the Empire that was thrown into the garbage can.


No. See what MK said earlier: "Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again."

The Pocket Cabal locked into the Dome headed Demon is a reference to the Game. The Game being Pokemon, which was quite popular at the time. Your reference about "slaying being more like new pop culture replacing old pop culture" was spot on here.

The Pocket Cabal (The Game), Ruddy Man (The Car), City-Face, (The City), Lie Rock (The Thing You Ate Last Night), GULGA MOR JIL (The Child). I'd have to study the Sermons a little more to place the rest.

Posted by: proweler Aug 17 2007, 09:42 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 18 2007, 03:13 AM) [snapback]10776977[/snapback]
No. See what MK said earlier: "Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again."

The Pocket Cabal locked into the Dome headed Demon is a reference to the Game. The Game being Pokemon, which was quite popular at the time. Your reference about "slaying being more like new pop culture replacing old pop culture" was spot on here.

The Pocket Cabal (The Game), Ruddy Man (The Car), City-Face, (The City), Lie Rock (The Thing You Ate Last Night), GULGA MOR JIL (The Child). I'd have to read study the Sermons a little more to place the rest.


Hah. Thanks, I got that idea from reading the RPG Motivational Poster Thread. It's a Meme that eats other Meme's.

Pokemon has never been quite the rage over here and since I'm the proud owner of one of these http://trashcansunlimited.com/library/GrandSwingCan-GlossyPlatinum.jpeg I can't get it in my mind as meaning anything different.

Pokemon works too though.

1. Moon-Axle
2. Treasure Wood Sword
3. Horde Mountain
4. The Pocket Cabal - The Game
5. Ruddy Man - The Car
6. City-Face - The City
7. Lie Rock - The Thing you ate Last Night
8. Gulga Mor Jil - The Child

That leaves the Company, the Country and the Friend.

1. The Moon-Axel sounds like the country. Many faceted (states) with straight lines that don't go far. Though that is typical only for America.
2. The Treasure Wood Sword sounds like the friend, entering the house and being greeted 3 traditional kisses to the bone walker.
3. Horde Mountain sounds like the Compangy. Many people stacked ontop with a few at the top and many at the bottom. http://www.ahsaniamission.org/organization/organogram.gif.

---

That's not quite it though. Defeat the past but with what purpose?

Gotta think about it.

Posted by: Arynel Aug 20 2007, 10:03 PM

The Symbolic Collage:

"Can a member of the Invisible Gate become so archaic that its successor is not so much an improvement of the exact model, but rather a related model that is just needed more because of the currency of the world's condition?...

"These ideals are not going to change in nature, even though they may change in representation. But, even in the west, the Rainmaker vanishes. No one needs him anymore.

"Can one oust the model not because the model is set according to an ideal but because it is tied to an ever-changing unconscious mortal agenda?"






Posted by: syronj Aug 20 2007, 10:19 PM

QUOTE(Arynel @ Aug 20 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]10795904[/snapback]
The Symbolic Collage:

"Can a member of the Invisible Gate become so archaic that its successor is not so much an improvement of the exact model, but rather a related model that is just needed more because of the currency of the world's condition?...

"These ideals are not going to change in nature, even though they may change in representation. But, even in the west, the Rainmaker vanishes. No one needs him anymore.

"Can one oust the model not because the model is set according to an ideal but because it is tied to an ever-changing unconscious mortal agenda?"


Arynel, good to see you again.

Who is the Rainmaker? Vivec maybe, or the late Emperor Uriel? Sounds more like the Emperor.

Posted by: Vasindi Aug 21 2007, 12:02 AM

Does any of this nonsense help you all sleep at night?

Posted by: Bedt Aug 21 2007, 03:11 AM

QUOTE(OdysseusB)
You know, the whole male and female, God and Man, Poet and Warrior thing. The more I look at Vehk, the more I'm convinced that MK is a genious with his subtle tie-ins to certain concepts of transcendance.




QUOTE(Arynel)
"These ideals are not going to change in nature, even though they may change in representation. But, even in the west, the Rainmaker vanishes. No one needs him anymore.








QUOTE(Vasindi)
Does any of this nonsense help you all sleep at night?










Posted by: Vasindi Aug 21 2007, 03:26 AM

Yeah I didn't think so.

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 16 2007, 08:06 PM) [snapback]10769920[/snapback]
I was thinking of Edgar Allan Poe.


Didn't he die drunk in a gutter?

Posted by: Hellmouth Aug 21 2007, 04:17 AM

QUOTE(Vasindi @ Aug 21 2007, 02:26 AM) [snapback]10796989[/snapback]
Yeah I didn't think so.
Didn't he die drunk in a gutter?

That was Shakespear, I think Poe died of rabies from getting drunk in an ally. Or was it the other way around. Damn it, I forgot!

Posted by: Bedt Aug 21 2007, 05:37 AM

QUOTE(Hellmouth @ Aug 21 2007, 01:17 AM) [snapback]10797086[/snapback]
That was Shakespear, I think Poe died of rabies from getting drunk in an ally. Or was it the other way around. Damn it, I forgot!



QUOTE(Wikipedia)
The precise cause of Poe's death is disputed and has aroused great controversy.



QUOTE(Shakespeare's Life and Times: Home Page)
Shakespeare's burial is recorded in the Stratford Parish Register as occurring on 25 April, 1616; he died on April 23.

The cause of his death is unknown.

Posted by: Albides Aug 21 2007, 05:47 AM

QUOTE(Vasindi @ Aug 21 2007, 05:26 PM) [snapback]10796989[/snapback]
Didn't he die drunk in a gutter?

No, he died crazy in a gutter wearing someone else's clothes. The exact cause of death is unknown.

Shakespeare never died. He was reborn again and again.

What is it this time?

Posted by: Vasindi Aug 21 2007, 09:28 AM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 21 2007, 04:47 AM) [snapback]10797304[/snapback]
No, he died crazy in a gutter wearing someone else's clothes. The exact cause of death is unknown.

Shakespeare never died. He was reborn again and again.

What is it this time?


Haha. Even better. And I'm fair sure Shakespeare rots in his grave just like every other man.

I'd rather be the one stepping over them than the one snapping Polaroids with them as I grin stupidly. On that note Albides, I'm also fair sure you're not my friend, an authority figure or my mama. Don't you have some 'novel' to be working on?

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 21 2007, 09:48 AM

QUOTE(Vasindi @ Aug 21 2007, 09:28 AM) [snapback]10797910[/snapback]
Haha. Even better. And I'm fair sure Shakespeare rots in his grave just like every other man.

yeah, but people still talk about him. That's really all Mortal men can do, make sure our names remain long after ash is ash and dust is dust.

Posted by: Arynel Aug 21 2007, 10:14 AM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 20 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]10796003[/snapback]
Arynel, good to see you again.

Who is the Rainmaker? Vivec maybe, or the late Emperor Uriel? Sounds more like the Emperor.


An old god who was no longer needed.

"The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies."

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 21 2007, 10:18 AM

QUOTE(Arynel @ Aug 21 2007, 10:14 AM) [snapback]10798091[/snapback]
An old god who was no longer needed.

"The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies."

so it's like a less literal version of the Selectives who broke auriel when Allesia melded the religions? Or is it just as literal?

Posted by: Brian S Aug 21 2007, 10:20 AM

so it's "the pen is mightier than the sword" to a mythical level.

Posted by: Vasindi Aug 21 2007, 12:08 PM

QUOTE(Lycanthropic_Nerev @ Aug 21 2007, 08:48 AM) [snapback]10797981[/snapback]
yeah, but people still talk about him. That's really all Mortal men can do, make sure our names remain long after ash is ash and dust is dust.


Talk is cheap. And obviously it's not all mortal men can do or I wouldn't be here arguing otherwise. (then again, I'm a woman not a man) I'd rather not be remembered at all. The 'legacy' percieved immortality bit is kind of dated in my opinion and more than a little vain and wasteful. I also think it sort of gives up a part of you to what society percieves you as, which, in the end, isn't going to matter at all.

Posted by: Brian S Aug 21 2007, 12:13 PM

QUOTE(Vasindi @ Aug 21 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]10798772[/snapback]
Talk is cheap. And obviously it's not all mortal men can do or I wouldn't be here arguing otherwise. (then again, I'm a woman not a man) I'd rather not be remembered at all. The 'legacy' percieved immortality bit is kind of dated in my opinion and more than a little vain and wasteful. I also think it sort of gives up a part of you to what society percieves you as, which, in the end, isn't going to matter at all.

and we are talking about a fantasy universe, where obviously talk is far from cheap.

then again, you're talking about Shakespeare, so my post doesn't sound quite as epic as I intended

Posted by: proweler Aug 21 2007, 12:21 PM

It might be a rather dated, but the idea of becoming immortal through your legacy is exactly the sort of thing that would work in Tamriel.
If he was living in Tamriel I'd pity Shakespeare though, his ghost being summoned by every writer for inspiration or his soul cursed by every high-school student who has to read it.

Now we're talking about writers, who is being parodied for writing the Doomstones' Series?

http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/black_horse.shtml

Posted by: Brian S Aug 21 2007, 12:25 PM

You forgot haunting every high school play that butched his work

I totally want to read The Goblin With the Golden Arm now...

Posted by: syronj Aug 21 2007, 12:38 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 21 2007, 12:21 PM) [snapback]10798864[/snapback]
Now we're talking about writers, who is being parodied for writing the Doomstones' Series?

http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/black_horse.shtml


Proweler, is the writer being parodied one of the devs or someone from the forums? Or are my guesses way off?


Posted by: Vasindi Aug 21 2007, 12:50 PM

QUOTE(Brian S @ Aug 21 2007, 11:13 AM) [snapback]10798808[/snapback]
and we are talking about a fantasy universe, where obviously talk is far from cheap.

then again, you're talking about Shakespeare, so my post doesn't sound quite as epic as I intended


Keyword fantasy. Some people here take it entirely too seriously.

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 21 2007, 01:03 PM

Or have the day off from work and have nothing better to do than try (and fail) to install mods and make real-world parallels with the fanatsy one is trying so hard to soup up.

When I said "mortal man" I meant it as a turn of phrase. Obviously it's open to anyone. case in point Bloody Mary of England. Sorry if that offended.

So back on topic it seems that the concept of immortality through knowlege is important for the gods, sinc eif they are forgotten their power (apparently) fades.

Posted by: Solin Aug 21 2007, 01:58 PM

In a world of myth and magic this system of ideas can wander into the physical and have power there.

Who are your enemies?

'Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again.'

Who I hangout with, who I work for, what I drive, where I live, what I believe, what I eat, what I play, and what I have made/raised. These are all things people use to define themselves the 'foundations' of personhood akin to the metaphorical limbs of a being. These things, they should be arrayed before you like foes, slain, and overcome:

'The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies.'

The question is: Why are these things important us? You are gestalt. Be more than your character sheet.


Posted by: Vasindi Aug 21 2007, 03:39 PM

QUOTE(Solin @ Aug 21 2007, 12:58 PM) [snapback]10799478[/snapback]
In a world of myth and magic this system of ideas can wander into the physical and have power there.

Who are your enemies?

'Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again.'

Who I hangout with, who I work for, what I drive, where I live, what I believe, what I eat, what I play, and what I have made/raised. These are all things people use to define themselves the 'foundations' of personhood akin to the metaphorical limbs of a being. These things, they should be arrayed before you like foes, slain, and overcome:

'The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies.'

The question is: Why are these things important us? You are gestalt. Be more than your character sheet.


How can a friend also be your enemy? Someone must have some really crappy friends.

Posted by: syronj Aug 21 2007, 03:50 PM

QUOTE(Vasindi @ Aug 21 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]10800133[/snapback]
How can a friend also be your enemy? Someone must have some really crappy friends.


Probably in the Buddhist sense of attachment to the world keeping one from enlightenment.

I'm not sure what the alternative to the Friend, the Company, etc is though. Becoming an ascetic?

Posted by: Brian S Aug 21 2007, 04:01 PM

QUOTE(Vasindi @ Aug 21 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]10800133[/snapback]
How can a friend also be your enemy? Someone must have some really crappy friends.

The enemy of my enemy is my freind, and the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy

[?]

Posted by: Selia Aug 21 2007, 04:22 PM

The things which define a person can also become weights. They are not enemies in a traditional sense. More they are at time things which must be overcome in order to progress. A company has set structure and rules which you may or may not be able to by pass avoid or go to another which suits and for the most part all are. These other things may not betray you in the sense that they intend to keep one from your goals or set you on what one would deem a path from which one can not leave but often they do. To rise above to go beyond to leave that set path many times the afore mentioned things stop you. Perhaps not so much that they stop you but you stop you because you define yourself by them.

Posted by: syronj Aug 21 2007, 06:21 PM

QUOTE(Selia @ Aug 21 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]10800406[/snapback]
The things which define a person can also become weights.


We're all trapped by our jobs, bills to pay, relationships or marriage, and the rest of everyday life. I guess the difference between TES and our world is that the mortals in TES have the possibility of transcending that.



Posted by: Albides Aug 21 2007, 07:04 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]10801229[/snapback]
We're all trapped by our jobs, bills to pay, relationships or marriage, and the rest of everyday life. I guess the difference between TES and our world is that the mortals in TES have the possibility of transcending that.


We too have the possibility of http://www.amazon.com/Immoralist-Penguin-Classics-Andre-Gide/dp/0142180025/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187735876&sr=8-2 (hope I'm remembering the right Gide novel). It's just normally considered rather difficult. Or to some extent, controlling it in a way that http://www.amazon.com/Undiscovered-Self-Carl-G-Jung/dp/0451217322/ref=sr_1_5/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187736378&sr=1-5. Or http://www.amazon.com/girls-tetralogy-novels-two-volumes/dp/0297747274/ref=sr_1_1/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187737182&sr=1-1 expectations while still living with it. Or perhaps more relevantly, probably http://www.amazon.com/Power-Myth-Joseph-Campbell/dp/0385418868/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187736869&sr=1-3.

Normally you gotta attain it by violence, though.

Posted by: syronj Aug 21 2007, 07:15 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 21 2007, 07:04 PM) [snapback]10801543[/snapback]
We too have the possibility of http://www.amazon.com/Immoralist-Penguin-Classics-Andre-Gide/dp/0142180025/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187735876&sr=8-2 (hope I'm remembering the right Gide novel). It's just normally considered rather difficult. Or to some extent, controlling it in a way that http://www.amazon.com/Undiscovered-Self-Carl-G-Jung/dp/0451217322/ref=sr_1_5/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187736378&sr=1-5. Or http://www.amazon.com/girls-tetralogy-novels-two-volumes/dp/0297747274/ref=sr_1_1/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187737182&sr=1-1 expectations while still living with it. Or perhaps more relevantly, probably http://www.amazon.com/Power-Myth-Joseph-Campbell/dp/0385418868/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/002-6016468-7153615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187736869&sr=1-3.

Normally you gotta attain it by violence, though.


I know that quote on violence of course, but I'm not sure I understand it. What kind of violence are we talking about, and directed against whom? It reminds me of the cult of Mephala and betrayal.

Posted by: Brian S Aug 21 2007, 07:20 PM

Remeber the trial?
AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you
Vehk used his trial to achieve CHIM no?

Posted by: syronj Aug 21 2007, 07:30 PM

QUOTE(Brian S @ Aug 21 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]10801647[/snapback]
Remeber the trial?
AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you
Vehk used his trial to achieve CHIM no?


I think he was supposed to have CHIM before the Trial. He went along with the Trial in order to have vengeance on Azura.

Posted by: proweler Aug 21 2007, 07:33 PM

Vehk says: "With Chim as Weapon for my own revenge I eat you."


Posted by: Brian S Aug 21 2007, 07:33 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 21 2007, 07:30 PM) [snapback]10801721[/snapback]
I think he was supposed to have CHIM before the Trial. He went along with the Trial in order to have vengeance on Azura.

yeah, after re-reading it I think you're right.

sorry, it's been a while since I've brushed up on my Ehlnofex

Posted by: Albides Aug 21 2007, 07:38 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 09:15 AM) [snapback]10801613[/snapback]
I know that quote on violence of course, but I'm not sure I understand it. What kind of violence are we talking about, and directed against whom? It reminds me of the cult of Mephala and betrayal.

Indeed. The sort of violence that made Gide rise up against his protestant background and middle class values and sleep with little Arab boys while his wife choked on blood because of tuberculosis. Not immoral but self-realising, liberating. Or the kind of violence that made Henri de Montherlant abandon his infatuated and immature French girlfriend for an exotic prostitute with whom he coupled with knowing full well she had leprosy.

To quote Gide; "Our acts are attached to us as its glimmer is to phosphorous. They consume us, true, but they make our splendour."

Posted by: syronj Aug 21 2007, 07:40 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 21 2007, 07:38 PM) [snapback]10801778[/snapback]
Indeed. The sort of violence that made Gide rise up against his protestant background and middle class values and sleep with little Arab boys while his wife choked on blood because of tuberculosis. Not immoral but self-realising, liberating. Or the kind of violence that made Henri de Montherlant abandon his infatuated and immature French girlfriend for an exotic prostitute with whom he coupled with knowing full well she had leprosy.

To quote Gide; "Our acts are attached to us as its glimmer is to phosphorous. They consume us, true, but they make our splendour."


I don't know, Albides. These are immoral acts you're describing, however "liberating" they're supposed to be. Maybe it's better to be bourgeois.



Posted by: Brian S Aug 21 2007, 07:46 PM

What does apply in our world as well as Tamriel, good and evil, morality and immorality, is subjective.

Posted by: Xyber02 Aug 21 2007, 08:33 PM

QUOTE(Vasindi @ Aug 21 2007, 10:50 AM) [snapback]10799036[/snapback]
Keyword fantasy. Some people here take it entirely too seriously.

It's a sub forum devoted to Lore, in a forum devoted to games. What are the kind of people that attracts going to talk about, buses?

Posted by: proweler Aug 21 2007, 08:50 PM

QUOTE(Xyber02 @ Aug 22 2007, 02:33 AM) [snapback]10802104[/snapback]
It's a sub forum devoted to Lore, in a forum devoted to games. What are the kind of people that attracts going to talk about, buses?


She's got her point you know. From somebody in the Tamriel you can say that he has become immortal through his legacy, you can't say that of Shakespeare, as Lycantropic Nerevar suggested. On the otherhand when Albides said that "Shakespeare never died. He was reborn again and again." I doubt he meant it literally.

Though the mystical lore isn't the be all and end all of Lore and when it gets to the real world inspiration of the concept of immortality through actions, it is not even the most shiny part because the people who cherished those idea's -Albides named a few- aren't exactly the most shining examples of nice people - I mean they are [censored]s.

In this they bear much of a resemblance to rock-stars (paint-stars?, write-stars?, faith-stars?), while often creating some amazing stuff they go out of their way to shock people and mostly do what ever they want. This earns them eqaul amounts of adoration, pity and scorn while being hugely popular at the same time.

To ty in http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#13, it results in http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Proweler/Lore/Sermonxx.jpg.

This ofcourse begs the qeustion; what else to talk about? To which the answer is invariable 'nothing' because the last game came up rather short on lore. Comparing the lot to a cage full of starved rats wouldn't be to far off.

Posted by: Xyber02 Aug 21 2007, 09:41 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Aug 21 2007, 06:50 PM) [snapback]10802193[/snapback]
This ofcourse begs the qeustion; what else to talk about? To which the answer is invariable 'nothing' because the last game came up rather short on lore. Comparing the lot to a cage full of starved rats wouldn't be to far off.

I talk about what has been, what could be, and what might be, through frequent conversations with some friends and infrequent conversations with other friends.

It's a world that recognizes the myth and dream that creates it. I like that. A constant insulting of my intelligence I do not need.

Posted by: Twisted Pilgrim Aug 22 2007, 06:10 AM

QUOTE
'Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again.'


These things do not have to be slain in the literal sense, but must be overcome from within. The violence must be done within oneself. As has been explained here already, and much better than I, these "monsters" are the things we use to define ourselves. I am a father, I am a student, I am a husband, I am a boyfriend, I own this car, I own this house, I live in this neighborhood, I am from this country, I believe in this god, I eat this for breakfast, etc. But what makes us who we are is undefined by words. We must kill off that part of ourselves that we use to define ourselves by the external, and in doing so the internal identity can be born.

Posted by: Dumbkid Aug 22 2007, 11:54 AM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 21 2007, 06:15 PM) [snapback]10801613[/snapback]
I know that quote on violence of course, but I'm not sure I understand it. What kind of violence are we talking about, and directed against whom? It reminds me of the cult of Mephala and betrayal.


"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

QUOTE(brian S)
What does apply in our world as well as Tamriel, good and evil, morality and immorality, is subjective.


Is it true or false that these things are subjective?

Posted by: Big Head Aug 22 2007, 01:31 PM

If the big ruddy man was a shallow lad, Vivec could kill him by talking about how ugly his face looked, or asking "You wore THAT shirt? With THOSE shoes? Hahahaha!"


For the [acronym="Post above me"]pam[/acronym], anything adjective is subject to change. (You can quote me, or Zeah on that. )

Posted by: Dumbkid Aug 22 2007, 01:43 PM

QUOTE(Big Head @ Aug 22 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]10805554[/snapback]
For the [acronym="Post above me"]pam[/acronym], anything adjective is subject to change. (You can quote me, or Zeah on that. )


I assume you mean "objective," which means, roughly, unbiased. Objective truth is what is true independent of anyone's personal beliefs.

Subjective means what is, or seems to be the case, from the perspective of the subject.

It is objectively true that this is a tree, it is subjectively true that I think it is beautiful.

Posted by: Big Head Aug 22 2007, 01:48 PM

QUOTE(Dumbkid @ Aug 22 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]10805636[/snapback]
I assume you mean "objective," which means, roughly, unbiased. Objective truth is what is true independent of anyone's personal beliefs.

Subjective means what is, or seems to be the case, from the perspective of the subject.

It is objectively true that this is a tree, it is subjectively true that I think it is beautiful.

-.- Not really. I could call it an ugly duck, but it's really a tree, not ugly or beautiful. It simply is, and sentience complicates it.

Posted by: Arynel Aug 22 2007, 01:52 PM

QUOTE(Big Head @ Aug 22 2007, 12:48 PM) [snapback]10805673[/snapback]
-.- Not really. I could call it an ugly duck, but it's really a tree, not ugly or beautiful. It simply is, and sentience complicates it.


In this Starry Heart, sentience makes it true.

Where are your eyes now?

Mine are fixed on the center.

Posted by: Solin Aug 22 2007, 01:56 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 21 2007, 06:40 PM) [snapback]10801794[/snapback]
I don't know, Albides. These are immoral acts you're describing, however "liberating" they're supposed to be. Maybe it's better to be bourgeois.

What would you do to separate yourself from the rest of the world? To be individual in the mind of God (or whomever you've decided that to be)?

Posted by: Big Head Aug 22 2007, 01:58 PM

To be, or not to be!

Posted by: Brian S Aug 22 2007, 03:17 PM

Exactly. Why is violence and suffering on the news? It's more appaling than something positive.
"Bad" stands out more than "good"

Posted by: syronj Aug 22 2007, 03:18 PM

QUOTE(Solin @ Aug 22 2007, 01:56 PM) [snapback]10805713[/snapback]
What would you do to separate yourself from the rest of the world? To be individual in the mind of God (or whomever you've decided that to be)?


I don't think that I can. (For one thing, there is probably no God, Higher Self, other reality, or anything else.)

For other people to try this, it sounds as if they're just as likely to focus on selfishness and evil as to choose benevolence.

Posted by: Selia Aug 22 2007, 04:27 PM

In a way it may be selfish I suppose but it doesn't have to be. It is more of a matter of saying I am myself regardless of what ever else comes. I will not be caged by someone else and made to conform to what they believe of me. Rather I will be what I am. What you are is still determined by you. Good evil and so on are choices which you make. What I wear eat who I see where I work do not not define me, though for some people they do. Many seek the approval of others and spend much if not all of their time unhappy because they do not live up to what they feel others expect of them. That is not saying that a relatively content person might not see some need for improvement within themselves yet in most cases they are not so bothered by how others view them. While the examples showed some doing things which have been rather shocking it does not follow that someone who was like them in mind would by necessity have to do the shocking thing in order to be free. Although admittedly those who do shocking things are far more noticed then those who do not.

Posted by: Big Head Aug 22 2007, 05:06 PM

QUOTE(Selia @ Aug 22 2007, 04:27 PM) [snapback]10806698[/snapback]
In a way it may be selfish I suppose but it doesn't have to be. It is more of a matter of saying I am myself regardless of what ever else comes. I will not be caged by someone else and made to conform to what they believe of me. Rather I will be what I am. What you are is still determined by you. Good evil and so on are choices which you make. What I wear eat who I see where I work do not not define me, though for some people they do. Many seek the approval of others and spend much if not all of their time unhappy because they do not live up to what they feel others expect of them. That is not saying that a relatively content person might not see some need for improvement within themselves yet in most cases they are not so bothered by how others view them. While the examples showed some doing things which have been rather shocking it does not follow that someone who was like them in mind would by necessity have to do the shocking thing in order to be free. Although admittedly those who do shocking things are far more noticed then those who do not.

Edited for myself. =)

Posted by: Albides Aug 22 2007, 06:57 PM

QUOTE(Selia @ Aug 23 2007, 06:27 AM) [snapback]10806698[/snapback]
In a way it may be selfish I suppose but it doesn't have to be. It is more of a matter of saying I am myself regardless of what ever else comes. I will not be caged by someone else and made to conform to what they believe of me. Rather I will be what I am. What you are is still determined by you. Good evil and so on are choices which you make. What I wear eat who I see where I work do not not define me, though for some people they do. Many seek the approval of others and spend much if not all of their time unhappy because they do not live up to what they feel others expect of them.

I think this is deeper than mere self-esteem. We all have deep-seated convictions and patterns that we find difficult to get rid of; attachments to lovers, families, countries that inform our development and actions.

To quote The Man; "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword."

And: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Yea, and his own life also.


Posted by: Big Head Aug 22 2007, 07:26 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 22 2007, 06:57 PM) [snapback]10807595[/snapback]
I think this is deeper than mere self-esteem. We all have deep-seated convictions and patterns that we find difficult to get rid of; attachments to lovers, families, countries that inform our development and actions.

To quote The Man; "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword."

And: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Yea, and his own life also.

Who's that a quote of? (The Lord?)

Posted by: Albides Aug 22 2007, 07:37 PM

QUOTE(Big Head @ Aug 23 2007, 09:26 AM) [snapback]10807751[/snapback]
Who's that a quote of? (The Lord?)


Yes. Matthew 10:34 and Luke 14:26.

Posted by: syronj Aug 22 2007, 07:37 PM

QUOTE(Albides @ Aug 22 2007, 06:57 PM) [snapback]10807595[/snapback]
I think this is deeper than mere self-esteem. We all have deep-seated convictions and patterns that we find difficult to get rid of; attachments to lovers, families, countries that inform our development and actions.

To quote The Man; "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword."

And: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Yea, and his own life also.


As I said in an earlier post, I don't see an alternative. Become an ascetic?

This is dependent on whether you accept the authority of that text anyway.

Posted by: Arynel Aug 22 2007, 07:48 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]10806241[/snapback]
I don't think that I can. (For one thing, there is probably no God, Higher Self, other reality, or anything else.)


There's you, and the choices you make. It does little good to claim you are unable to do what you do not yet know. Success may very well come in the very proclamation "I can."

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]10806241[/snapback]
For other people to try this, it sounds as if they're just as likely to focus on selfishness and evil as to choose benevolence.


"This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened."

Posted by: syronj Aug 22 2007, 07:51 PM

QUOTE(Arynel @ Aug 22 2007, 07:48 PM) [snapback]10807904[/snapback]
"This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened."


I've never completely understood that quote. Sorry. I'm not sure how you're applying it here.

Posted by: Dumbkid Aug 22 2007, 07:53 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 06:37 PM) [snapback]10807831[/snapback]
As I said in an earlier post, I don't see an alternative. Become an ascetic?

This is dependent on whether you accept the authority of that text anyway.


It has nothing to do with whether you accept the authority of the text (as there's no such thing as textual authority), rather, it has everything to do with whether what the speaker says is true.

Now, here's the question. We have commitments, obligations, and duties to various peoples. Some of these are through biology, others through nationality, others through culture, others through social interaction. Which of these matter, and which truly bind us? Is our duty to our kins-folk, for example, greater than our duty to those with whom we bare no known relation?

Posted by: Albides Aug 22 2007, 07:55 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 23 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]10807831[/snapback]
As I said in an earlier post which no one responded to, I don't see an alternative. Become an ascetic?

I thought I already addressed this. One method is to not play by the rules. Recognise the sort of expectations you place on yourself and others place on you, recognise your place in the world and the fact that you're at liberty to do things that you might not otherwise think possible. You can change jobs, countries and abandon family and lovers. Buddhism also teaches non-attachment, but as a means of self-denial rather than realisation.

One can also bend the rules. A theme in TES is the power of myth and symbol. By attaching to our actions mythic origins, we can add value to them and use it to transcend the mudane, particularly in combination with ritual. This is often associated with what people call magic. But this has also been explored by several scholars, notably Joseph Campbell and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Return_%28Eliade%29#Human_creativity.

Posted by: syronj Aug 22 2007, 07:59 PM

QUOTE(Dumbkid @ Aug 22 2007, 07:53 PM) [snapback]10807933[/snapback]
It has nothing to do with whether you accept the authority of the text (as there's no such thing as textual authority), rather, it has everything to do with whether what the speaker says is true.

Now, here's the question. We have commitments, obligations, and duties to various peoples. Some of these are through biology, others through nationality, others through culture, others through social interaction. Which of these matter, and which truly bind us? Is our duty to our kins-folk, for example, greater than our duty to those with whom we bare no known relation?


I'd say our duty to relatives is greater than to strangers, yes. Except that reality is complex; I would hope we would be loyal to our nation, for example, rather than traitorous.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

One can also bend the rules. A theme in TES is the power of myth and symbol. By attaching to our actions mythic origins, we can add value to them and use it to transcend the mudane, particularly in combination with ritual. This is often associated with what people call magic. But this has also been explored by several scholars, notably Joseph Campbell and Mircea Eliade.

I guess it comes down to faith. I don't think it's possible to transcend the mundane, and there is no magic.

I will admit that you're well-read, and that I should try to read your sources. I probably won't get around to it, which is a fault on my part.

Edited: The article on Eliade was interesting.

Posted by: Arynel Aug 22 2007, 08:00 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]10807923[/snapback]
I've never completely understood that quote. Sorry. I'm not sure how you're applying it here.


Mythic history is the episodic conflict of what those on the lower levels call good and evil. Or is it? Choose wisely.



QUOTE(Albides)
By attaching to our actions mythic origins, we can add value to them and use it to transcend the mudane, particularly in combination with ritual.


MUNDUS [NUMIT] AETHERI.

Posted by: Big Head Aug 22 2007, 08:05 PM

It's gone from Vivec chopping people in half with his d* to archaic feuds, what is the matter with this society?

Posted by: Dumbkid Aug 22 2007, 08:06 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 06:59 PM) [snapback]10807972[/snapback]
I'd say our duty to relatives is greater than to strangers, yes. Except that reality is complex; I would hope we would be loyal to our nation, for example, rather than traitorous.



Then you disagree with the speaker, that's fine, but notice its possible to discuss the issue without relegating it to an issue of textual authority or faith. There are atheists who would agree with Jesus on this point, and christians who would disagree.

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 06:59 PM) [snapback]10807972[/snapback]
I guess it comes down to faith. I don't think it's possible to transcend the mundane, and there is no magic.

I will admit that you're well-read, and that I should try to read your sources. I probably won't get around to it, which is a fault on my part.


The whole point of Zen is to learn to find the transcendental within the mundane. You transcend it by rethinking the way you look at it. What changes is you.

Posted by: MK Aug 22 2007, 08:06 PM

QUOTE(Big Head @ Aug 22 2007, 08:05 PM) [snapback]10808007[/snapback]
It's gone from Vivec chopping people in half with his dick to archaic feuds, what is the matter with this society?


Language.

Posted by: Big Head Aug 22 2007, 08:07 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 22 2007, 08:06 PM) [snapback]10808021[/snapback]
Language.

What? T_T

Posted by: One87xe Aug 22 2007, 09:26 PM

QUOTE(Big Head @ Aug 22 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]10808025[/snapback]
What? T_T


As crazy as it is MK just gave you your answer. Is your god still your god if his names buddha? How about Allah? Shiva perhaps?

You'd probably say no, since your god is called none of those things in your own language, and: I somewhat hope I'm not midway across a rope bridge that has been lit ablaze

Posted by: gilan Aug 22 2007, 09:27 PM

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 06:37 PM) [snapback]10807831[/snapback]
This is dependent on whether you accept the authority of that text anyway.

Not really. It stands on its own as a call to action, you're either willing to sacrifice a part of yourself -- ideas (prejudices, preconceptions, habits, social customs) that shape your identity, specifically, and material things consequently -- or you will fail. One can disagree with that statement, of course, but one should first ask themselves whether hasty dismissal is a symptom of the limitations the statement was meant to address.

QUOTE(syronj @ Aug 22 2007, 06:59 PM) [snapback]10807972[/snapback]
I guess it comes down to faith. I don't think it's possible to transcend the mundane, and there is no magic.

Words are magic. What's his face said it: selfish desire leads to suffering, you are your brother's keeper.

I was watching the astronauts of the space shuttle Endeavour at a press conference yesterday. One of them admitted she had never imagined she would become a chemist, never mind an astronaut, but that the desire to do it was largely responsible for getting her into space. She killed herself to get there, if you catch my drift. Too many others kill the better portions of themselves and become horrible people trapped in [selfish desire], deaf and blind by choice. Multiply times six billion and you get the constant threat in The Books, that stuff on the nightly news.

QUOTE(Big Head @ Aug 22 2007, 07:07 PM) [snapback]10808025[/snapback]
QUOTE(MK @ Aug 22 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]10808021[/snapback]
Language.
What? T_T

Choose your words wisely, they're sharper than you think.

Posted by: syronj Aug 22 2007, 09:58 PM

Just wanted to thank posters like Gilan, Albides, and Arynel. It's good to see you and others on the lore forum who reason well, as opposed to the spammers.

Posted by: The Word Merchant Aug 24 2007, 02:42 PM

QUOTE(MK @ Aug 22 2007, 08:06 PM) [snapback]10808021[/snapback]
Language.

While studying mediation, negotiation and arbitration at Humboldt University Law School in Berlin, Germany in the summer of 2003, we spent a great deal of time focusing on how liguistic attempts to objectify subjective needs and desires fall short more often than not. Individuality is contained within, unfortunately we only have a limited number of sounds (i.e., words) that we can use to convey what we think or feel.

When the listener does not receive the exact message that we seek to convey, a person can either feel like he/she is not being valued, feel alienated, or any other number of adverse reactions.

Trying to attach sounds to the pictures in our heads is a crude method of communication, however it is all that we currently have, and is coupled with a plethora of misinterpretation. We try to supplement this communication with physical movements (body language) and intonation, but there is still something missing. Music can add to the commuication. Colors, shapes, etc, such as an artists paintings. We are all trying to say something....before we are no more.

Attempting to preserve the uniqueness of our perspective has been said to be innate in all humans, although the level of attention and effort paid to the preservation varies.

So what makes Vivec's "Symbolic Collage" so effective? How does this "stream of thought", "Active Imagination", etc matter to us, and why?

Because we all do it, and we appreciate when a person can combine those hidden mental pictures that we all have with the sounds that so often let us down. Maybe the person did it with another picture. Maybe the person did it with a musical beat. It doesn't matter; something moved us and touched something within us.

It's that fleeting feeling that maybe someone out there feels like you do in some way that gives us hope. And as long as our perception is shared...to some small degree...then our own existence is legitimized and the subconscious fear of extinction alleviated for a time.

Yours in the Scrolls,

____The Word Merchant of Julianos

Posted by: The Word Merchant Aug 24 2007, 03:13 PM

QUOTE(Big Head @ Aug 24 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]10818713[/snapback]
I would but reply to your post, Word Merchant; however, my signature would better relate my... "subjective" feelings.


QUOTE(gilan @ Aug 22 2007, 09:27 PM) [snapback]10808419[/snapback]
Choose your words wisely, they're sharper than you think.


QUOTE(The Word Merchant @ Aug 24 2007, 02:42 PM) [snapback]10818665[/snapback]
When the listener does not receive the exact message that we seek to convey, a person can either feel like he/she is not being valued, feel alienated, or any other number of adverse reactions.


Big Head, I don't get what you're saying.

Posted by: Dogsbody Aug 24 2007, 05:56 PM

The off-topic nonsense posts are going away. Do not spam the forums.

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev Aug 24 2007, 10:39 PM

QUOTE(One87xe @ Aug 22 2007, 09:26 PM) [snapback]10808415[/snapback]
As crazy as it is MK just gave you your answer. Is your god still your god if his names buddha? How about Allah? Shiva perhaps?

You'd probably say no, since your god is called none of those things in your own language, and: I somewhat hope I'm not midway across a rope bridge that has been lit ablaze

So the sword and mouth bit is that he (Vivec) manipulated the language in order to destroy his crazy monster kid? Or at least to weaken it, and allow it to be destroyed?

And I guess you aren't, since I don't see any smoke yet. But since I already started this paragraph my answer is yes.

Posted by: Orzorn Aug 25 2007, 12:44 AM

QUOTE(Lycanthropic_Nerev @ Aug 24 2007, 09:39 PM) [snapback]10821239[/snapback]
So the sword and mouth bit is that he (Vivec) manipulated the language in order to destroy his crazy monster kid? Or at least to weaken it, and allow it to be destroyed?

Id see the sword and mouth bit as a meaning for the power of words and how you can change many things with just words.

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