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Bethesda Game Studios Forums _ Elder Scrolls Lore _ Nu-Mantia Intercept

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Sep 22 2005, 11:40 PM

By secret glyph: dreamsleeve transmission
Dreamsleeve: urgent, security protocols granted
Security protocols: Sphinxmoth ancestor wraithbone wards

To Chancellor Ocato, in mastery! In triumph! In absolute moral good!

Forgive my direct sending, Chancellor, and know that I do this with the respect of every ancestor in my beard, but Grandmaster Jauffre has never responded to previous efforts to warn Empire Actual of the findings of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree. I admit that these warnings may have been too esoteric to merit the attention they deserve.

In short, the Barrier is weakening, and I know why. Moreso, I have uncovered a conspiracy that stretches back to Dawntime and the split of Aldmeris. Empire Actual is threatened by forces of previous realities, and the Ayleids are not destroyed at all.

The moths closest to my ears and lips once served under Belharza the Bull during their corporeal stage. You know thereby the extent of my allegiance. Please give me permission to heard at the Elder Council, even if only by Ducal memo-spore.

Yours under the Red Diamond,

Nu-Hatta

Posted by: Stargazey Sep 22 2005, 11:55 PM

... the Ayelids are not gone, then? Intresting, indeed.

And, if I read correctley, the Empire was doomed to fall since the Dawntime.


Intresting ... very intresting.

Posted by: Ocato Sep 23 2005, 12:01 AM

Brother Nu-Hatta,

Yes. I recall your reports. Jauffre passed them up the channels. An interesting theory, but there was nothing there that we could act upon. Shadowy empire-spanning conspiracies? With all due respect to your eminent communicants, neither the Elder Scrolls nor the ancestor moths have ever provided us with much practical information. After the fact, yes, the prophecies always make sense then. Historians and scholars make their careers on such things.

But my business is the government of the Empire in the here and now, with a multitude of problems and dangers that are all too clear. I do not mean to be dismissive; give me something concrete, and you will see us act.

I remain,

Ocato of Firsthold, High Chancellor of the Elder Council, Imperial Battlemage, etc. etc.

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Sep 23 2005, 12:18 AM

By secret glyph: dreamsleeve transmission
Dreamsleeve: urgent, security protocols granted
Security protocols: Sphinxmoth ancestor wraithbone wards

Firsthold is too kind.

“Then will mighty Akatosh reply, wherein the petitioner must be demand full freedom! To speak in the fires of time is to render the speaker a subject of the matron Jills, those servants of the Dragon that mend minutes without volunteer. Only through freedom can true words remain untouched.”

My reports shall follow. I assume we move now to scrying by the Elders?

Yours under the Red Diamond,

Nu-Hatta

Posted by: Ocato Sep 23 2005, 12:21 AM

Brother Nu-Hatta,

Yes, very well. I don't know that the full Council will find your use of the dreamsleeve justified, but I leave that to you.

Ocato

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 23 2005, 01:19 AM

Divided from Eight by Five: non-cardinal transmission response

Good Nu-Hatta,

Be warned that your wraithbone wards do not conceal from all. In this case, it is to most concerned ears that your message has fallen.

The Barrier is weakening, this we feared. But the why is yet a mystery to the School of the Wheel. I have only caught sight of a very small portion of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree's analysis. Pray, report your findings, esoteric as they are, and you will find a ready witness and colleague beyond the Heartland.

In earnest,

Nigedo

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Sep 23 2005, 02:07 AM

Members of the Elder Council,

Forgive the brash medium through which this comes to you, but read by its stamp that Ocato has given the smallest of consent. Know too that the Cult of the Ancestor-Moth submits fully to the Council in all things, as it has done since Edict 18.x2n.3E2IS, even though the allegations of such legislature as being Simulacrum Terminatus is still in review.

Scholarship on the subject of the metaphysical Tower is at an all-time high. Not since the Selective have we seen so much dangerous interest in the shezzarite power-symbols. Do any here think this an accident? That such work is not influenced by doppeldream and unlawful messaging? Do any here think this is not the work of the Tharnatos and his sleepers?

The fall of Red Tower should not be seen as the suave conquest of Cyrodiil's agencies, for we have been tricked again by the Dagonites. Though through long eras the chimerical landgods have subverted Divine rule, their protection of the First Stone should have remained as it was: the ironic protection of our enemies to our Enemy.

The Towers of the terrestrial plane have had their histories cloaked in lies and misinterpretations. That the lands they hold dominion over reverberate with troubles now in east and west should give common consent that they are reacting to an Empire-wide attention, sublunar and on dread purpose.

By the implications of my introductory comments alone, I realize that some on the Council may wish to exercise their right of admonishment or call of silence. I withdraw the spore at this time to hear these; otherwise I shall proceed.

Posted by: Divayth Fyr the Psijic Sep 23 2005, 02:53 AM

Proceed, by all means.

Though the Council may have the power to silence me, they can not enforce deafness. I am unable to confute the topic at hand in my sterile state.

Feeble and counterproductive am I in my position handed down by the Council.

Divayth Fyr

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 04:49 AM

"Well, if this isn't the most informative correspondence I've ever been privelidged to see, then I don't know what is. I wonder, though...if an idle lore-voyeur such as I can spy upon the communications of the All-Wise, then what hidden enemy might also be peering in? It seems to me that the tellings of the Elder Scrolls should be discussed somewhere a touch less exposed."

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 23 2005, 07:05 AM

Doppledream and unlawful messaging - well, yes. Tharnatos and his sleepers? Not to my knowledge, but my knowledge is far from complete. If the Council approves these measures, I shall be present in whatever capacity is required.

Posted by: Attrebus Sep 23 2005, 07:26 AM

This is rather interesting and startling news, however, should we expect any less when the Daedra are involved?

Of course, there are many conspiracy theorists that would have us believe many things. Perhaps Dagon did have a hand in Nerevar's destruction of the heart. Which would imply that the glyphs read from the Elder Scrolls are obscure to the point of uselessness. Or perhaps even the Emperor knew of his impending demise and wished it to be so.

There are many questions that arise from Nu-Hatta's intercepts. Some of the implications may be why this information hasn't been released until now...

Posted by: Azura's Star Sep 23 2005, 07:40 AM

"Honored Nu-Hatta has presented his evidence, but I've yet to see him call for any specific measures. Regardless, I expect I'll be living in the city of my Master, taking bets on whether Dagon gets my body before Sheogorath claims my mind. Resist the will of the Enemy without the aid of your thrice-damned and triply damning "enemies?" Ha! I'm too old for such things. Wake me when the revolution (or rather, Revolution, since it is the being and not the abstraction under discussion) comes, that I might see his glory as I die.

"I imagine that certain of my compatriots will feel differently, however. One of them will probably go lend a hand to your glorious Empire. It's only fair, I suppose. You did send us the Nerevarine, and I know how much that pains you now. Oh, how that must rankle! Ha!

"Excuse me. My outburst was unseemly. As I was saying, you can expect some young Dunmer lass or laddie to show up on your doorstep, full of vim and vigor and ideals. Please, conquerors, try to be kind. The younger generation doesn't deserve the strife we've thrown upon them."

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Sep 23 2005, 10:09 AM

The beginnings of our present problem go back to the Merethic Era.

...

I hear rumblings of protest already. Please, let me assure you I shall abide by Council measure and present my findings in the accepted quadragraph form of old: metaphysical root, historical lessonates, present threat assessment, and assumption of enemy maneuvers. All Elders who wish to enter trance-state may do so now.

Aldmeris split during the Dawn, but as in all things then, these fractures enjoyed quasi-temporal amendments. Sometimes the Island of Start was with us, othertimes not or not of a whole, close as it was to spirit actual.

The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods.

The next is known to all of us in different ways, and the impossibility of the Dawn lends all of these memories credence. I speak of the Ur-Tower, Adamantine, anon Direnni, and of its creation and purpose.

Auriel-that-is-Akatosh returned to Mundex Arena from his dominion planet, signalling all Aedra to convene at a static meeting that would last outside of aurbic time. His sleek and silver vessel became a spike into the changing earth and the glimmerwinds of its impact warned any spirit that entered aura with it would become recorded-- that by consent of presence their actions here would last of a period unassailable, and would be so whatever might come later to these spirits, even if they rejoined the aether or succumbed willingly or by
treachery to a sithite erasure. Thus could the Aedra and their cohorts truly covene in realness.

Our forebears saw the erection of Ada-mantia, Ur-Tower, and the Zero Stone. Let the Elders acknowledge this truth: every Tower bears its Stone. The impossipoint of the Convention was the first, though another bears the true title of First Stone.

Because we are finally a pantheosophic assembly, I will not dictate whether Lorkhan was judged sacred or profane or transcendent at the Convention. My brothers at the Temple of the One may call a recess after my first graph to discuss this on the tertiary sense-gradient; sametime tendril-argument is encouraged by the Moth. It is my primary intention to show the echo effect of Ada-mantia and why it will eventually trouble Emperor Actual. I can only do this by telling the story of First Stone without causal debate.

"Aad semblio impera, dela can carpio semblex."

By these words I intone the many-headed language of the Ehlnofey. The phrase-meanings can be both "as in the image of the kings become the hearts of their shadows" and "the shadows in kingly hearts are images of as", where "as" is meant in the sheathe of an ur word.

The outcome of the Convention was to leave the terrestrial sphere in their excess, for its own good, but that it should last after their departure as in the semblance of the Ada-mantia. Mundus was given its second Tower, the Red, whose First Stone was the Heart of the World, "as in the image."

Time began to last in stepped-fashion. Those spirits that remained, lesser and greater, involuntary or eventual earthbone, surrendered all definite hold on divinity. Aldmeris bore witness and built the remaining towers during the Merethic: White-Gold, Crystal-like-Law, Orichalc, Green-Sap, Walk-Brass, Snow Throat, and on and on, "aad semblio impera."

We come to the first shaper-peoples and the historical lessonates, wherein most reversed in enmity, error, or awe what already existed in both meanings at once: "Aad semblio impera, dela can carpio semblex." What happens when one reverses an inversion; moreso, does so in the living day?

We come to the point where Oblivion first troubled our new earth.

Posted by: Vehk Sep 23 2005, 03:47 PM

Little gypsy,

Be careful.

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Sep 23 2005, 04:57 PM

Council members, haste trumps ceremony. I trust that the learned may differentiate between the Tower of metaphysics and the Towers of History.

Let us begin the lessonates.

What are the Towers?

They are magical and physical echoes of the Ur-Tower, Ada-mantia. Ada-mantia was the first spike of unassailable reality in the Dawn, otherwise called the Zero Stone. The powers at Ada-mantia were able to determine through this Stone the spread of creation and their parts in it.

The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate.

After these two acts, which is commonly called the Convention, the gods left the earth.

As they were the most powerful of lesser spirits in the ages after the Convention and eager to emulate what they saw, the Aldmer began construction of their own towers. That they built more than one shows you that they were not of one mind.

The Aldmer began to split along cultural lines, on how best to spread creation and their parts in it. Each Tower that was built exemplified a separate accordance.

This sundering of purpose is the myth of the "destruction of Aldmeris." Outside of the Dawn, and even then only in the dreamtime of its landscape, there was never a terrestrial homeland of the Elves. "Old Ehlnofey" is a magical ideal of mixed memories of the Dawn.

Do not believe the written histories.

All mortal life started on the starry heart of Dawn's beauty, Tamriel.

Posted by: Ocato Sep 23 2005, 05:07 PM

If we are in haste, why are we being lectured about the metaphysical meaning of Tower in ancient Aldmeris theology? I will have my adjutant inform me if anything of substance is revealed here. I suggest the rest of the Council do likewise. We have matters of real import to discuss with the Emperor today.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 23 2005, 05:10 PM

Good Nu-Hatta,

Surely you confuse your terms. Though the Ur-Tower of which you speak may have given place to a "first" stone, in terms of order of creation, it is the later zero stone that is foremost in the pre-eminence of the Construction, which you thus name "first". But the "first" should be known "zero" since it is is the centrepoint, is it not?

Or were the incalculable Dwemer correct in their childlike assertion of a "type of Zero yet to be discovered"?

Nigedo

Posted by: Hasphat Antabolis Sep 23 2005, 05:14 PM

I will second the Chancellor, though he needs none.

If the gentleman surrounded by moths would please move on to the present threat assessment phase of his quadragraph....

Posted by: Vehk Sep 23 2005, 05:19 PM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Sep 23 2005, 12:10 PM)
Good Nu-Hatta,

Surely you confuse your terms. 

[snapback]2812953[/snapback]


But he does it so delightfully.

My Nigedo, he will trip again, and not just on semantics. It will end in a biting. Or do I only fuel the conspiracy?

Posted by: Arynel Sep 23 2005, 05:27 PM

So the challenges of the soon-to-be are resultant of the most ancient of events? I would like to learn more, do continue.

Posted by: Luagar2 Sep 23 2005, 06:44 PM

Very odd news, some that was to be expected, some that was not, much to be pondered upon. I shall await patiently the outcome of the Council's meeting...

Posted by: Hekem Geth Sep 23 2005, 06:50 PM

The cosmic cycle is a traumatic chronology that brings about all things, from the originating impulse, perceived as a desperate cracking, to all number of historical assemblages, reemerging effigies of ancient ideals.

The corpse of shattered hierarchy becomes the footstool of a new horizon. This is the synchronistic mechanism.

Even the old gods declare!

Will the resonating impulse of the present calamity prove good or ill? This is but one symptom of the corporeal discovery.

Mortals wonder at star-strived omens!

In this I am only a watcher, but gleeful and full of dread-laced humor.

Posted by: Adanorcil Sep 23 2005, 07:22 PM

Very interesting finds, Nu-Hatta. Thank you for sharing this with us. (The same goes for all other fellow scholars who have flocked here.) I am heading for the Imperial province now, after visiting Artaeum. I will be looking forward to receiving further reports from you.

Posted by: vaanic~one Sep 23 2005, 07:59 PM

And Thus,

The Ends are finally beginning to justify the means...

Posted by: Allerleirauh Sep 23 2005, 11:02 PM

Vehk, sweetest lord, how good to hear your voice again.

Nu-Hatta: surely magical and mythical history has a reality of its own. To say that Old Ehlnofay is a magical ideal of mixed memories of the Dawn is not to say that it did not exist, or that the image no longer holds power. I know enough of histories, truthful and otherwise, to know that even the lies have meaning.

All mortal life started on the starry heart. Yes. But I believe that is not the only true tale.

I would hear what you have to say of Yokuda, and Atmora.

And yes, on to the present danger. You have indirectly accused me of contributing to it, and so I take an interest.

Posted by: proweler Sep 23 2005, 11:39 PM

I’m confused on the type of Barrier mentioned. Is this the Seed-Apple Latice and what is it’s relation to the Amulet of Kings?

As Master Geth said, this conflict has been going on for ages in various forms and shapes. Most conflict involving two opposed forces could be seen as a pale reflection of this eternal interaction and most conflict is; or so the old man tells us.

Nu-Hatta's theorems on the Dawn Era are fascinating and should not be rushed along. Yet they also describe the same eternal conflict. Perhaps the situation is best explained backwards. If this does not suit the Moths, so be it. We will arvive at some point, eventually.

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Sep 24 2005, 01:08 AM

Before I proceed, let it be known that I abide by the Council's wish to move the quadragraph further along. I rescind memo-spore lessonate sendings IV-IX from the dreamsleeve. They are become un-present at this session.

I take my right to present two more, however, as under the Invocation of the Invisible Gate.

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Sep 24 2005, 01:16 AM

What are the Stones?

The Stones are magical and physical echoes of the Zero Stone, by which a Tower might focus its energy to mold creation. Oftentimes, the Stones borrowed surplus creation from Oblivion, grafting it to the terrestrial domain of its anointed Tower.

It was and is difficult to bypass Oblivion to go directly to creation's source, the Aetherius. It has been done, but not without great expenditure, mundane and otherwise. However, access to Oblivion, the Void that surrounds Mundex Arena, which we might touch every night, was child's play in comparison.

Cultivating creatia that washed into the Void from Aetherius became the rule among Stones.

The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories. The Towers built on the Mundus, since the lands around them congealed in the absence of the gods, were unable to match the capriciousness of the Lords of Misrule.

Sometimes.

The Elves were dividing; some, like the Altmer, did their best to advocate "the will of Anuiel" and so embraced the chrysalis of the Convention; others, like the Chimer, refuted all orderings and aedric measures, following their prophet to "the Stone that is not a Stone that is." The most nefarious Tower, Walk-Brass, refuted even more, refuting unto dis-creation, but we shall come to its role in the present danger to Emperor Actual in a moment. It is but a lesser pawn to the greater evil:

The Tower of White-Gold, whose Stone is Chim-el Adabal, Amulet of Kings, whose masters are returning. I speak of course of the Ayleids, for which "sometimes" was not good enough.

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 24 2005, 02:36 AM

QUOTE(Vehk @ Sep 23 2005, 04:19 PM)
But he does it so delightfully.

My Nigedo, he will trip again, and not just on semantics. It will end in a biting. Or do I only fuel the conspiracy?
[snapback]2813016[/snapback]

Soft aether voice. Yardstick of my philosophies, we will see.

Posted by: Nazz Sep 24 2005, 03:56 AM

Ah how great the rule of men, when their fall affects us all.

Please continue good Nu-Hatta, tell us more.

Posted by: Ruma Sep 25 2005, 03:26 AM

Yes, Nu-Hatta, why don't you just tell them the truth?

Or your real affiliation?

Or is this one of father's underking tactics again?

Posted by: Vehk Sep 25 2005, 03:39 AM

QUOTE(Ruma @ Sep 24 2005, 10:26 PM)
Yes, Nu-Hatta, why don't you just tell them the truth?

Or your real affiliation?

Or is this one of father's underking tactics again?
[snapback]2826336[/snapback]


See, little Nigedo? When these bite, they leave shapes behind.

More comes. Watch. I suggest the dreugh-trickery I've shown you; become not slipshod.

Posted by: proweler Sep 26 2005, 02:25 AM

QUOTE(Ruma @ Sep 24 2005, 10:26 PM)
Yes, Nu-Hatta, why don't you just tell them the truth?

Or your real affiliation?

Or is this one of father's underking tactics again?
[snapback]2826336[/snapback]


If the speaker would reply to this humble enquiry, I'd be much obliged. You suggest we are beeing left out of the truth, what is Nu-Hatta hiding from us?

Posted by: Nigedo Sep 26 2005, 05:22 PM

QUOTE(Vehk @ Sep 25 2005, 02:39 AM)
See, little Nigedo? When these bite, they leave shapes behind.

More comes. Watch. I suggest the dreugh-trickery I've shown you; become not slipshod.
[snapback]2826425[/snapback]

Aha! Criticisms levelled at the foundations of one's purpose are rarely well received. The comfortable despise discomfort. But there is more afoot than this.

I perceive a refutation of our walk undershadowing this diatribe. This dissuades me not at all; I will watch, with interest, perhaps to learn more about the legacy of White-Gold and its masters, but mostly to enjoy the biting and to measure their wounds.

Posted by: Arynel Oct 1 2005, 09:49 PM

It appears, as far as I am able to discern, that this converse is of yet incomplete. What fortunes, good or ill, could have prevented good Nu-Hatta from sending his messages? I do hope he is able to provide more information; it most definitely does not fall on deaf ears.

Posted by: Love_From_Above Oct 2 2005, 12:02 AM

QUOTE(Arynel @ Oct 1 2005, 03:49 PM)
It appears, as far as I am able to discern, that this converse is of yet incomplete.  What fortunes, good or ill, could have prevented good Nu-Hatta from sending his messages?  I do hope he is able to provide more information; it most definitely does not fall on deaf ears.
[snapback]2880906[/snapback]


It is difficult to conceive without also becoming a duplicate. We should cease these vibrations and instead listen to those that can only be heard within this house if we remain silent. It is all of an unnamed flesh when disturbed so, and entirely inedible. Please accept Our apologies.

-Nael

Posted by: zingar baltus Oct 2 2005, 07:51 PM

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 11:40 PM)
By secret glyph: dreamsleeve transmission
Dreamsleeve: urgent, security protocols granted
Security protocols: Sphinxmoth ancestor wraithbone wards

To Chancellor Ocato, in mastery! In triumph! In absolute moral good!

Forgive my direct sending, Chancellor, and know that I do this with the respect of every ancestor in my beard, but Grandmaster Jauffre has never responded to previous efforts to warn Empire Actual of the findings of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree. I admit that these warnings may have been too esoteric to merit the attention they deserve.

In short, the Barrier is weakening, and I know why. Moreso, I have uncovered a conspiracy that stretches back to Dawntime and the split of Aldmeris. Empire Actual is threatened by forces of previous realities, and the Ayleids are not destroyed at all.

The moths closest to my ears and lips once served under Belharza the Bull during their corporeal stage. You know thereby the extent of my allegiance. Please give me permission to heard at the Elder Council, even if only by Ducal memo-spore.

Yours under the Red Diamond,

Nu-Hatta
[snapback]2807469[/snapback]

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 12:18 AM)
By secret glyph: dreamsleeve transmission
Dreamsleeve: urgent, security protocols granted
Security protocols: Sphinxmoth ancestor wraithbone wards

Firsthold is too kind.

“Then will mighty Akatosh reply, wherein the petitioner must be demand full freedom! To speak in the fires of time is to render the speaker a subject of the matron Jills, those servants of the Dragon that mend minutes without volunteer. Only through freedom can true words remain untouched.”

My reports shall follow. I assume we move now to scrying by the Elders?

Yours under the Red Diamond,

Nu-Hatta
[snapback]2807734[/snapback]

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 02:07 AM)
Members of the Elder Council,

Forgive the brash medium through which this comes to you, but read by its stamp that Ocato has given the smallest of consent. Know too that the Cult of the Ancestor-Moth submits fully to the Council in all  things, as it has done since Edict 18.x2n.3E2IS, even though the  allegations of such legislature as being Simulacrum Terminatus is still  in review.

Scholarship on the subject of the metaphysical Tower is at an all-time  high. Not since the Selective have we seen so much dangerous interest in the shezzarite power-symbols. Do any here think this an accident? That such work is not influenced by doppeldream and unlawful messaging? Do any here think this is not the work of the Tharnatos and his sleepers?

The fall of Red Tower should not be seen as the suave conquest of  Cyrodiil's agencies, for we have been tricked again by the Dagonites.  Though through long eras the chimerical landgods have subverted Divine rule, their protection of the First Stone should have remained as it was: the ironic protection of our enemies to our Enemy.

The Towers of the terrestrial plane have had their histories cloaked in  lies and misinterpretations. That the lands they hold dominion over  reverberate with troubles now in east and west should give common  consent that they are reacting to an Empire-wide attention, sublunar and on dread purpose.

By the implications of my introductory comments alone, I realize that some on the Council may wish to exercise their right of admonishment or call of silence. I withdraw the spore at this time to hear these; otherwise I shall proceed.
[snapback]2808577[/snapback]

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 10:09 AM)
The beginnings of our present problem go back to the Merethic Era.

...

I hear rumblings of protest already. Please, let me assure you I shall  abide by Council measure and present my findings in the accepted  quadragraph form of old: metaphysical root, historical lessonates,  present threat assessment, and assumption of enemy maneuvers. All Elders who wish to enter trance-state may do so now.

Aldmeris split during the Dawn, but as in all things then, these  fractures enjoyed quasi-temporal amendments. Sometimes the Island of Start was with us, othertimes not or not of a whole, close as it was to spirit actual.

The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods.

The next is known to all of us in different ways, and the impossibility  of the Dawn lends all of these memories credence. I speak of the Ur-Tower, Adamantine, anon Direnni, and of its creation and purpose.

Auriel-that-is-Akatosh returned to Mundex Arena from his dominion  planet, signalling all Aedra to convene at a static meeting that would  last outside of aurbic time. His sleek and silver vessel became a spike into the changing earth and the glimmerwinds of its impact warned any spirit that entered aura with it would become recorded-- that by consent of presence their actions here would last of a period  unassailable, and would be so whatever might come later to these  spirits, even if they rejoined the aether or succumbed willingly or by
treachery to a sithite erasure. Thus could the Aedra and their cohorts  truly covene in realness.

Our forebears saw the erection of Ada-mantia, Ur-Tower, and the Zero Stone. Let the Elders acknowledge this truth: every Tower bears its  Stone. The impossipoint of the Convention was the first, though another bears the true title of First Stone.

Because we are finally a pantheosophic assembly, I will not dictate whether Lorkhan was judged sacred or profane or transcendent at the Convention. My brothers at the Temple of the One may call a recess after my first graph to discuss this on the tertiary sense-gradient; sametime tendril-argument is encouraged by the Moth. It is my primary intention to show the echo effect of Ada-mantia and why it will eventually trouble Emperor Actual. I can only do this by telling the story of First Stone without causal debate.

"Aad semblio impera, dela can carpio semblex."

By these words I intone the many-headed language of the Ehlnofey. The phrase-meanings can be both "as in the image of the kings become the hearts of their shadows" and "the shadows in kingly hearts are images of as", where "as" is meant in the sheathe of an ur word.

The outcome of the Convention was to leave the terrestrial sphere in  their excess, for its own good, but that it should last after their  departure as in the semblance of the Ada-mantia. Mundus was given its second Tower, the Red, whose First Stone was the Heart of the World, "as in the image."

Time began to last in stepped-fashion. Those spirits that remained,  lesser and greater, involuntary or eventual earthbone, surrendered all definite hold on divinity. Aldmeris bore witness and built the remaining towers during the Merethic: White-Gold, Crystal-like-Law, Orichalc, Green-Sap, Walk-Brass, Snow Throat, and on and on, "aad semblio impera."

We come to the first shaper-peoples and the historical lessonates,  wherein most reversed in enmity, error, or awe what already existed in both meanings at once: "Aad semblio impera, dela can carpio semblex." What happens when one reverses an inversion; moreso, does so in the living day?

We come to the point where Oblivion first troubled our new earth.
[snapback]2811080[/snapback]

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 23 2005, 04:57 PM)
Council members, haste trumps ceremony. I trust that the learned may differentiate between the Tower of metaphysics and the Towers of History.

Let us begin the lessonates.

What are the Towers?

They are magical and physical echoes of the Ur-Tower, Ada-mantia.  Ada-mantia was the first spike of unassailable reality in the Dawn,  otherwise called the Zero Stone. The powers at Ada-mantia were able to determine through this Stone the spread of creation and their parts in it.

The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate.

After these two acts, which is commonly called the Convention, the gods left the earth.

As they were the most powerful of lesser spirits in the ages after the  Convention and eager to emulate what they saw, the Aldmer began  construction of their own towers. That they built more than one shows  you that they were not of one mind.

The Aldmer began to split along cultural lines, on how best to spread creation and their parts in it. Each Tower that was built exemplified a separate accordance.

This sundering of purpose is the myth of the "destruction of Aldmeris." Outside of the Dawn, and even then only in the dreamtime of its landscape, there was never a terrestrial homeland of the Elves. "Old Ehlnofey" is a magical ideal of mixed memories of the Dawn.

Do not believe the written histories.

All mortal life started on the starry heart of Dawn's beauty, Tamriel.
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QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 24 2005, 01:08 AM)
Before I proceed, let it be known that I abide by the Council's wish to move the quadragraph further along. I rescind memo-spore lessonate sendings IV-IX from the dreamsleeve. They are become un-present at this session.

I take my right to present two more, however, as under the Invocation of the Invisible Gate.
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QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 24 2005, 01:16 AM)
What are the Stones?

The Stones are magical and physical echoes of the Zero Stone, by which a Tower might focus its energy to mold creation. Oftentimes, the Stones borrowed surplus creation from Oblivion, grafting it to the terrestrial domain of its anointed Tower.

It was and is difficult to bypass Oblivion to go directly to creation's  source, the Aetherius. It has been done, but not without great  expenditure, mundane and otherwise. However, access to Oblivion, the Void that surrounds Mundex Arena, which we might touch every night, was child's play in comparison.

Cultivating creatia that washed into the Void from Aetherius became the rule among Stones.

The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories. The Towers built on the Mundus, since the lands around them congealed in the absence of the gods, were unable to match the capriciousness of the Lords of Misrule.

Sometimes.

The Elves were dividing; some, like the Altmer, did their best to  advocate "the will of Anuiel" and so embraced the chrysalis of the Convention; others, like the Chimer, refuted all orderings and aedric measures, following their prophet to "the Stone that is not a Stone that is." The most nefarious Tower, Walk-Brass, refuted even more, refuting unto dis-creation, but we shall come to its role in the present danger to Emperor Actual in a moment. It is but a lesser pawn to the greater evil:

The Tower of White-Gold, whose Stone is Chim-el Adabal, Amulet of  Kings, whose masters are returning. I speak of course of the Ayleids, for which "sometimes" was not good enough.
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The Aylaids are returning ???

Well let them come.


Posted by: Nu-Hatta Oct 9 2005, 05:40 AM

Hnnnnh.

Posted by: Nu-Hatta Oct 9 2005, 05:51 AM

What is White-Gold Tower?

Like all of the polydox constructs of the earliest Aldmer-- whatever their abnegaurbic creed-- White-Gold Tower is a conduit of creatia, aad sembia sembio, built to bring about a reversal of the congealing spiritual bleed caused by the Convention. In other words, it was a focus point for (re-)reaching the divine.

White-Gold Tower was made by the Ayleids, the Heartland High Elves that would have none to do with their isle-kind. Where the Altmer sought to focus on dracochrysalis, or keeping elder magic bound before it could change into something lesser (and act which ironically required aetherial surplus), the Ayleids harvested castaway creatia from Oblivion by entering a pact with the masters of the Void, the Princes of Misrule.

***
Gypsy Moth dustmemore insert
- it should be noted here that it is always foolish to think of whole races sharing like minds. "Ayleid" is as much a metaphysical designation as it is a cultural one. Just like the earliest Chimer who orphaned themselves from the Velothi Exodites, but remain Chimer today, large numbers of Ayleids showed more interest in the immediate earthly needs of agriculture rather than the magical needs of concept-farming. This distinction becomes important later, when "Ayleid" begins to designate other, and ofttimes foreign, agencies.
***

Every dawnmaker Tower takes a myth-form. Red Tower is a volcano and its surrounds. Snow Throat a mountain whose apex is only half here. Walk-Brass is appropriately ambulatory, and (most of the time) anthropomorphic. The Aldmeri polydoxes were cosminachs, and the White-Gold project was and is no different.

Though the Ayleids gave theirs a central Spire as the imago of Ada-mantia, the whole of the polydox resembled the Wheel, with eight lesser towers forming a ring around their primus. To dismiss this mythitecture as being a mockery of the Aurbis is to ignore an important point: this same "jest" gave White-Gold Tower a power over creatia unalike any on this plane(t). It was a triumph of sympathetic megafetish, and the Start of the [Threat! To! Empire!] that brings me to this Council.

If the Ayleids made their own Wheel within the Wheel, were-web aad semblio, what would happen if they plucked its strings?

Posted by: Vehk Oct 9 2005, 06:41 AM

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Oct 9 2005, 12:51 AM)
Though the Ayleids gave theirs a central Spire as the imago of Ada-mantia, the whole of the polydox resembled the Wheel, with eight lesser towers forming a ring around their primus. To dismiss this mythitecture as being a mockery of the Aurbis is to ignore an important point: this same "jest" gave White-Gold Tower a power over creatia unalike any on this plane(t). It was a triumph of sympathetic megafetish--
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Eight gods, eight provinces, eight as an infinity that stands upright.

Dig with him, my Hortators:

8. The Wheel, or the Eight Givers. 484

Some secrets stay hidden for ages. Viper-writing.

Posted by: Cyaneyes Oct 9 2005, 07:10 AM

Vipers, eh?

QUOTE
The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Twenty-One

The Scripture of the Wheel, First:

    'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'

Posted by: Nigedo Oct 9 2005, 07:11 AM

QUOTE(Vehk @ Oct 9 2005, 05:41 AM)
Eight gods, eight provinces, eight as an infinity that stands upright.

Dig with him, my Hortators:

8. The Wheel, or the Eight Givers. 484

Some secrets stay hidden for ages. Viper-writing.
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http://www.whirlingschool.net/lore/numbers/8.html

Posted by: Chimer_Warrior Oct 9 2005, 07:19 AM

I think I will just continue to stick my head in the clouds on all this, I like it better up there anyways.

Posted by: Only Asks Once Oct 10 2005, 05:33 AM

QUOTE(Cyaneyes @ Oct 8 2005, 11:10 PM)
Vipers, eh?
[snapback]2957254[/snapback]


QUOTE
The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Twenty-One

The Scripture of the Wheel, First:

    'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'


Possibly purely selfish here, but why could the lizard-gods not be the Hist?

QUOTE
Gypsy Moth dustmemore insert - it should be noted here that it is always foolish to think of whole races sharing like minds. "Ayleid" is as much a metaphysical designation as it is a cultural one. Just like the earliest Chimer who orphaned themselves from the Velothi Exodites, but remain Chimer today, large numbers of Ayleids showed more interest in the immediate earthly needs of agriculture rather than the magical needs of concept-farming. This distinction becomes important later, when "Ayleid" begins to designate other, and ofttimes foreign, agencies.


So the Ayleid that helped Turala from the 2920 series would be an example of the "Peaceful" Ayleid's. I would suppose that most of the "Wild Elf" sightings on Tamerial would be of the peaceful kind. Hmmm... I wonder of the "Evil" Ayeleids "Removed" themselves from the world for a while, just like the Psijicc Island af Artaeum vanished for 500 years with it's inhabitants.

QUOTE
Eight gods, eight provinces, eight as an infinity that stands upright.

Dig with him, my Hortators:

8. The Wheel, or the Eight Givers. 484

Some secrets stay hidden for ages. Viper-writing.


Ah, Sweet Lord Vehk! Who better than you to answer a riddle with a riddle! And yet the truth lies somewhere within your honeyed words. I am back off to the Imperial Library now, to pore over the writings of Vivec to try to shed some light on this riddle. Just knowing that you are again communicating with your followers tingles the scales of this Argonian.

Posted by: Only Asks Once Oct 10 2005, 07:04 AM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Oct 8 2005, 11:11 PM)
http://www.whirlingschool.net/lore/numbers/8.html
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Wise words from Lord Vivec, Nigedo, but I fail to see the relation to the eight Aedra that seem to represent the "Eight Gods" he spoke of. Could enlighten this poor, dim-witted Marsh Dweller?

Posted by: adamant_2001 Oct 10 2005, 07:41 AM

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Oct 9 2005, 12:40 AM)
Hnnnnh.
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There are surely times when foolish mortal might can topple the machinations of hubris and destroy the axel of imitative magics.

Would not the best course of action be the destruction of the Ayleids and their works? Shattering their tower? Breaking their wheel?

Posted by: Quende Oct 10 2005, 09:30 AM

QUOTE(Nigedo @ Oct 9 2005, 01:11 AM)
http://www.whirlingschool.net/lore/numbers/8.html
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When we’re on the numbers:
In the scripture of numbers, do you or any have a understanding of the numerology presented in the numbers behind the words. Like 484…Only a guess, four corners of trouble, eight giving aedroth, or something entirely different?

Edit: Can't spell

Posted by: My-Tee-Son-Ray Oct 12 2005, 12:19 PM

excuse me sorry.

Posted by: featherbrain Oct 18 2005, 06:12 PM

Edit

Posted by: Ino Zenosis Oct 21 2005, 02:30 PM

While browsing in the Imperial Library I ran across http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/lunar_lorkhan.shtml.

QUOTE
In short, the Moons were and are the two halves of Lorkhan's 'flesh-divinity'. Like the rest of the Gods, Lorkhan was a plane(t) that participated in the Great Construction... except where the Eight lent portions of their heavenly bodies to create the mortal plane(t)
To me, this reads as the eight stones are physical aspects of the eight Aedra. This may be what Quende is referring to.

QUOTE(Quende @ Oct 10 2005, 07:17 PM)
Only a guess, four corners of trouble, eight giving aedroth, or something entirely different?
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Posted by: Eralion Sethos Oct 23 2005, 02:45 AM

QUOTE(adamant_2001 @ Oct 9 2005, 11:28 PM)
There are surely times when foolish mortal might can topple the machinations of hubris and destroy the axel of imitative magics.

Would not the best course of action be the destruction of the Ayleids and their works? Shattering their tower? Breaking their wheel?
[snapback]2969756[/snapback]

But what would that do to the Wheel itself? It may have dire ramifications.

Posted by: kheros Oct 23 2005, 03:37 PM

QUOTE(Cyaneyes @ Oct 9 2005, 06:57 AM)
Vipers, eh?
QUOTE
The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Twenty-One

The Scripture of the Wheel, First:

    'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'




Reminded me of another snake-wheel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Nov 10 2005, 03:05 AM

Ah, so the Ayleids made a pact with Daedra........

Posted by: B Nov 10 2005, 07:13 PM

QUOTE(Cloud Tiamat @ Nov 9 2005, 09:05 PM)
Ah, so the Ayleids made a pact with Daedra........
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That's what Nu-Hatta says.

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Nov 11 2005, 01:18 PM

So while the Dwemer tried to use the Heart of Lorkhan & enchantments to transcend, the Ayleids are planning on using the Amulet of Kings & Daedra to transscend. Makes me wonder what the Altmer on Summerset were up to......

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Nov 17 2005, 05:07 AM

I never really understood why the elves had such problem with Lorkhan creating the mortal plane.

Posted by: TheMailman Nov 17 2005, 05:35 AM

QUOTE(Cloud Tiamat @ Nov 17 2005, 12:07 AM)
I never really understood why the elves had such problem with Lorkhan creating the mortal plane.
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alchoholism

Posted by: TheMailman Nov 17 2005, 05:37 AM

*delete*

Posted by: Chimer_Warrior Nov 17 2005, 05:39 AM

QUOTE(Cloud Tiamat @ Nov 17 2005, 06:07 AM)
I never really understood why the elves had such problem with Lorkhan creating the mortal plane.
[snapback]3358830[/snapback]

Because it seperated them from what they were, or what they think they were, or could have been. The Mer, may view Mundus more like being exiled, rather than freedom, something like that anyways.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 17 2005, 08:06 AM

To Ocato,
Elder council,
(encrypted message)
(by express blades courier, arriving late)

Tricked to attack the red tower we were.
What can one expect when Boethia, the father of all plots is involved ?

I tried to warn the council of never trusting the Daedra, and to proceed carefully on matter of such high importance ! That reckless Nerevarine !

Good Daedra ? Azura ? Bothia ? Mephala ?
Folk tales I say !
Divide and Conquer is what they did.
Good and evil, they split the land in two camp,
making the real shape of the land and the turmoil in it unclear to our eyes !

They tricked the Nerevarine in doing the bidding of their brethen.
Thought their may be enimity between Daedra lords, the enemy of my enemy is my ally. Clearly they acted in concert in staging this grand artistic display ! Each one keeping to it's role and confusing the observer.

They weakened the defense of the mundus and killed one grat scholar, the late Sotha Sil, and corrupted Almalexia.

Surelly they planned this well, and they killed many birds with a single stone.

To the point, I have sent at your disposition our best mages from High Rock, in the hope they may help turn the coming blood tide... They are more needed there than here.

I have consulted the Oracle of Kynareth and I am most worried than an ancient evil is afoot. May Akatosh guard us !

The sea is the door of the mind
(secret Snake-Moth footnotes follow)

Your tempestuous servant,

Armage Astarsis,
master of the Daggerfall guild of Mage
Daggerfall

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Nov 18 2005, 12:41 AM

QUOTE(Chimer_Warrior @ Nov 16 2005, 11:39 PM)
Because it seperated them from what they were, or what they think they were, or could have been. The Mer, may view Mundus more like being exiled, rather than freedom, something like that anyways.
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What a bunch of babies....

QUOTE(Astarsis @ Nov 17 2005, 02:06 AM)
Tricked to attack the red tower we were.
What can one expect when Boethia, the father of all plots is involved ?

I tried to warn the council of never trusting the Daedra, and to proceed carefully on matter of such high importance ! That reckless Nerevarine !
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Dagoth Ur was manipulating Vvardenfell's populace and killing Imperial citizens with his weird-ass cult. He was too dangerous to be left alive.

Posted by: proweler Nov 18 2005, 12:48 AM

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/2920.shtml


Posted by: featherbrain Nov 18 2005, 03:56 AM

Ada-Mantia = "Ur-Tower"

Ad or Aad = "Ur"?

Ada = "Spirit"?

Mantia = "Tower"?

Mantia ---> Mantella?

Nu-Mantia = "Mortal Death" or "Road to Liberty"? (Loveletter)

Nu-Mantia = "New Tower"?

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 18 2005, 07:38 AM

Dreugh have really awfull maners at feasts....

Dreugh vomit ... beurk !

Still. Layers within layers, just like that book

QUOTE
In the courtyard of her palace was a boiling pool which steamed in the coolness of the winter morning. At the wave of her hand, it cleared and she saw the face and form of her lover Vivec in his study to the north. She did not want to speak right away: he looked so handsome in his dark red robes, writing his poetry as he did every morning.

"Vivec," she said, and he raised his head in a smile, looking at her face across thousands of miles. "I have seen a vision of the end of the war."


Our wife slept with our best friend ! That's it ! I've had it ! Now I'm just glad I killed Vivec. Hope they do things right if recounting Vivec last days. The Nerevarine CANNOT let him live after reading that Book.

QUOTE
19 Sun's Dawn, 2920
Gilverdale, Valenwood
"Listen to me again," said the old carpenter. "If cell three holds worthless brass, then cell two holds the gold key. If cell one holds the gold key, then cell three hold worthless brass. If cell two holds worthless brass, then cell one holds the gold key."

A bright red mist was pouring over the town in a wave, engulfing building after building in its wake. Striding before was a red-skinned giant. The Daedra Molag Bal. He was smiling.


That said, that dreugh stuff seems rather tasty !

I love how that era end, treachery on all sides !

QUOTE
His attention was arrested by a needle-thin shaft of light piercing through his black and red shadowed sky. He followed it to its source, two figures, a man and a woman standing on the hill above town. The man in the white robe he recognized immediately as Sotha Sil, the sorcerer who had talked all the Princes of Oblivion into that meaningless truce.


That hapened AFTER Sotha Sil pact

And by the way there was 8 Daedra on that pact Ring a bell ?

Azura - Boethia - Hircine - Hermaus Mora
Sheogorath - Malacath - Mehrunes Dagon - Molag Bal

QUOTE
She was battling Mehrunes Dagon again amid a firestorm. All around her, the blackened husk of a castle crumbled, splashing sparks into the night sky. The Daedra's claws dug into her belly, spreading poison through her veins while Almalexia throttled him. As she sank to the ground beside her defeated foe, she saw that the castle consumed by fire was not Castle Mournhold. It was the Imperial Palace.


Never came to pass yet... Isn't that strange ?

QUOTE
"I want to make it clear that I am not taking the title Emperor," he continued. "I have been and will continue to be Potentate Versidue-Shaie, an alien welcomed kindly to your shores. It will be my duty to protect my adopted homeland, and I pledge to work tirelessly at this task until someone more worthy takes the burden from me. As my first act, I declare that in commemoration of this historical moment, beginning on the first of Morning Star, we will enter year one of the Second Era as time will be reckoned. Thus, we mourn the loss of our Imperial family, and look forward to the future."



A snake on Tamriel Throne, sweet

QUOTE
In the smoky catacombs beneath the city where Sotha Sil forged the future with his arcane clockwork apparatus, something unforeseen happened. An oily bubble seeped from a long trusted gear and popped. Immediately, the wizard's attention was drawn to it and to the chain that tiny action triggered. A pipe shifted half an inch to the left. A tread skipped. A coil rewound itself and began spinning in a counter direction. A piston that had been thrusting left-right, left-right, for millennia suddenly began shifting right-left. Nothing broke, but everything changed.

"It cannot be fixed now," said the sorcerer quietly.

He looked up through a crick in the ceiling into the night sky. It was midnight. The second era, the age of chaos, had begun.


I'm afraid it will get way worst !

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 18 2005, 07:51 AM

QUOTE
the Gods convene at the Adamantine Tower (Direnni Tower, the oldest known structure in Tamriel)


The adamantine tower, and Dagoth Ur are the 2 oldest towers

I'm not sure which one is third - but the emperor tower, which is also the white gold tower of the Ayelid should be 3rd in power.

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 17 2005, 10:56 PM)
Ada-Mantia = "Ur-Tower"

Ad or Aad = "Ur"?

Ada = "Spirit"?

Mantia = "Tower"?

Mantia ---> Mantella?

Nu-Mantia = "Mortal Death" or "Road to Liberty"? (Loveletter)

Nu-Mantia = "New Tower"?
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Posted by: featherbrain Nov 19 2005, 02:24 AM

From http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/xal_day_counted_hours.shtml:

From http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/xal_day_power.shtml:
From http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/gosleigh_10th_rain_hand.shtml:
From http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/2920.shtml:Marukhati Selective collaborating with Psijics? The Ruins of Kemel-Ze? The Cacophony and Sotha Sil? Ayleid "shaper talents"? Good Ayleids in the First Era helping Dunmer?

Posted by: proweler Nov 19 2005, 03:07 AM

Ah yes! The Ayleids! Supposed to be either skilled at illusion or know how to avoid Y'ffre's law on a less permanent basis, quite unlike their Bosmeri brethren.

It would seem that Ayleidic lifestyle made a complete turn over soon after the Allesian uprising. The step from an existence as ruling class to a nomadic existence is rather a rather large one. Perhaps they have been assimilated by the other races. Yet http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b003_wildelves.shtml seems to contradict that idea.

For all I can tell, they simply vanished from eyes of history.

The Maruhkati Selective could be considered the human Psijic Order and the Psijic Order the Merish Maruhkati Selective respectively, were it not for the fact that they attract members of all sorts.

I'm still at loss at the meaning the phrase about the Cacophany and their apparently ability to shape like the Ayleids.

But thank you for brining Xal and Gosleigh up! If I had only remembered this famous correspondence at a previous discussion!

http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/xal_day_counted_hours.shtml


Posted by: featherbrain Nov 19 2005, 04:40 AM

CHIM

Pondering again the texts that make up Vehk's Teaching in the IL, especially http://til.gamingsource.net/vehk/vehk07.shtml, I'm struck by how closely CHIM is associated with Padomay and change rather than Anu, and that it consequently appears to hold a special interest for the Padomay-aligned:

I'm therefore less surprised now than I was to discover that the original name of the Amulet of Kings was Chim-el Adabal, "the spirit stone of high royalty," especially given this definition of CHIM by Vehk: It should be equally unsurprising, then, to be reminded that the original Ayleids - in possession of the most powerful of the Towers, connected most closely with Oblivion, and with a Stone named after protean CHIM directly - were masters of "shaper talents" that were borrowed/translated by the Tribunal in their "music" (variant of tonal architecture?) --> "a shape that is always new"?

This also clarifies many references in the Mysterium Xarxes commentary for me: "Know that then you are royalty, a new breed of destroyer, whose garden shall flood with flowers known and unknown, as it was in the mythic dawn" ... "in the garden of the Dawn we shall breathe whole realities" ... "Endlessly it shall form and reform around you, deeds as entities, all-systems only an hour before they bloom to zero sums" ... "These were not words for the common of Tamriel, whose clergy long ago feigned the very existence of the Dawn [Marukhati]"

By regarding CHIM as essentially an invention of the Padomay-aligned, this definition of the Psijic Endeavour by Vehk may be applied just as readily to the "glorious apotheosis" goal of the Mythic Dawn cult (if not their means!):And this from http://til.gamingsource.net/vehk/vehk06.shtml:So Lorkhan's creation, the Psijic Endeavour, the Marukhati Selective's meddling with Akatosh (too Anu-aligned for them, perhaps?), all of the Aldmeri Towers/Stones (in different ways) and the Mythic Dawn's path to Nu-Mantia are all essentially the same in relation to CHIM?

And I still want to know what Vehk meant by Dragon Break = "middle dawn", Blue Star = Hurling Disk = Mnemoli (see Loveletter), and especially these curious references in http://til.gamingsource.net/vehk/vehk01.shtml:

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 05:45 AM

As I understand it the towers are used to shape reality, a bit like Dworkin in 9 princes of Amber

In fact I would venture that the tower hold reality in place, and if they would be destroyed, reality would fall appart and the world would be as Chaotic and changing as Oblivion.

As I understand it, the Ayelids are great shapers, which is the talent required to alter reality and to create shaping tools, such as the towers, or Kagrenac tools.

It's said the White Gold Tower is queite unique

I'm personaly starting to think Vivec may have been in league with Azura all along. After all he was Molag Bal consort. He could have been the tool by which Almalexia was made crazy. They say he's so mad he could ascend to take Sheogorath place. Abd he's the one who convinced us of killing Dagoth Ur .

Our forebears saw the erection of Ada-mantia, Ur-Tower, and the Zero Stone. Let the Elders acknowledge this truth: every Tower bears its Stone. The impossipoint of the Convention was the first, though another bears the true title of First Stone.

Ada-mantia is the Direni Twer on Balfiera
Ur-Tower is Dagoth Ur
The Zero stone might well be the Withe-Gold Tower... imperial city

They are magical and physical echoes of the Ur-Tower, Ada-mantia. Ada-mantia was the first spike of unassailable reality in the Dawn, otherwise called the Zero Stone. The powers at Ada-mantia were able to determine through this Stone the spread of creation and their parts in it..

That one is really weird because they seem to talk of all 3 towers as thought they are one. It definitively confirm the tower as being similar in concept to AMBER or even the LABYRYNTH (Inner reality) in 9 prince of amber. And yes, the Unicorn was critical in 9 prince of Amber, it was as old as Dworkyn. A being from before creation

The Stones are magical and physical echoes of the Zero Stone, by which a Tower might focus its energy to mold creation. Oftentimes, the Stones borrowed surplus creation from Oblivion, grafting it to the terrestrial domain of its anointed Tower.

It was and is difficult to bypass Oblivion to go directly to creation's source, the Aetherius. It has been done, but not without great expenditure, mundane and otherwise. However, access to Oblivion, the Void that surrounds Mundex Arena, which we might touch every night, was child's play in comparison.

Oblivion seems much like the Shadows of 9 princes of amber. But more chaotic. In fact if you went far away enought from amber you would eventualy reach the couurts of chaos

The story was always full of plots to destroy reality.

Cultivating creatia that washed into the Void from Aetherius became the rule among Stones.

The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories. The Towers built on the Mundus, since the lands around them congealed in the absence of the gods, were unable to match the capriciousness of the Lords of Misrule.

In short the Daedra lords can create directly, while in the mundus the towers *maintain* creation as set by the Aedra. (Elfenoey)


White-Gold Tower was made by the Ayleids, the Heartland High Elves that would have none to do with their isle-kind. Where the Altmer sought to focus on dracochrysalis, or keeping elder magic bound before it could change into something lesser (and act which ironically required aetherial surplus), the Ayleids harvested castaway creatia from Oblivion by entering a pact with the masters of the Void, the Princes of Misrule.

ould it be they built the tower atop the zero stone ?


Though the Ayleids gave theirs a central Spire as the imago of Ada-mantia, the whole of the polydox resembled the Wheel, with eight lesser towers forming a ring around their primus. To dismiss this mythitecture as being a mockery of the Aurbis is to ignore an important point: this same "jest" gave White-Gold Tower a power over creatia unalike any on this plane(t). It was a triumph of sympathetic megafetish, and the Start of the [Threat! To! Empire!] that brings me to this Council.

If the Ayleids made their own Wheel within the Wheel, were-web aad semblio, what would happen if they plucked its strings?

Can this give them the power to reshape the world anyway they wish ?

I only see 6 towers arround the city, unless.. the round structure on the port, and on the smallest of the 3 outer hub ARE those extra 2 towers...

make sense since 2 tower must be special (like dagoth ur and adamatia)

The Cacophany wear gold and hideous masks and their instruments are built into their armor

I hope we'll see those. Funnilly make me think of Dagoth Ur and his follower all wearing gold masks...

The natives say this is all that’s left of Sotha Sil.

This is confusing. Wasn't he alive at that time ?

Here is the brunt of it (my fellow Maruhkati have been summoned to the Cacophany at Sil and we leave at dawn):

Divayth Fyr, who you may recall from our days at Gwylim, has the whole of the Inner Sea interested in the varied guises of PSJJJJ again


Any links between Cacaphony, Sotha Sil, The 6th house and the Psyjic ?

Though the Selective and Artaeum diverge on many matters of the Endeavour

A fanatical sect of the Alessian Order, the Maruhkati Selective, becomes frustrated by ancient Aldmeri traditions still present within the theological system of the Eight Divines. Specifically, they hated any admission that Akatosh, the Supreme Spirit, was indisputably also Auriel, the Elven High God.

Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic.

The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke. The non-linearity of the Dawn Era had returned.


That's certainly a convincing way of disagreeing !

Whether or not the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective were successful is unknown, and any records of their survival were destroyed by the War of Righteousness that ended the Alessian Order a hundred years later.

So what's all that talk about if they are dead ?


This Tower or staff split into eight pieces and Time broke. This lasted until the eight pieces came to rest on the mortal plane. If your read through Shezarr and the Eight Divines, it will provide some additional insight on Queen Alessia. Could the "eight pieces" be the Eight Divines?

Staff of Chaos ?


Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra. Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world. Veloth read these signs, and he told Boethiah, who confirmed them, and he told Mephala, who made wards against them, and he told Azura, who sent ALMSIVI to steer the True Folk clear of harm. Even the Four Corners of the House of Troubles rose to protect the periphery of your madness.

Staying mad is good for your health
Weird how each side call the other deceivers

Do you mean, where were the Khajiiti when the Dragon Broke? I'll tell you where: we were recording it
and you didn't have the sugar to see it.

Love that one !

Get me, Cyrodiil? When will you wake up and realize what _really_ happened to the Dwarves?"


It appears that Mannimarco, The God of Worms is claiming that The immortal hero, known by many names, is also Zurin Arctus (Tiber Septim's Battlemage and The Underking).

Confusing as Hell !

How can the underking be both Ysmir and Zurin Arctus and the eternal champion..... while Tiber was still alive.... Or is Tiber NOT the eternal champion ?

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 19 2005, 06:30 AM

"Reality would fall apart and the world would be as Chaotic and changing as Oblivion."

This seems to be a desirable goal for some!

"The Zero stone might well be the Withe-Gold Tower... imperial city"

The Zero Stone is the stone of the Ur-Tower. The Amulet of Kings is the stone of White-Gold Tower.

"In short the Daedra lords can create directly, while in the mundus the towers *maintain* creation as set by the Aedra."

But don't forget that all of the Aldmer were attempting to *reverse* the "congealing spiritual bleed caused by the Convention" in their different ways ("in enmity, error, or awe"): the Altmer tried to conserve/shore it up, whereas the Ayleids were intent on "(re-)reaching the divine." In all cases this required "cultivating creatia that washed into the Void from Aetherius," but the Ayleids made a pact with the Daedra to harvest "castaway creatia" directly from Oblivion. Nu-Hatta calls the builders of the Towers "the first shaper-peoples."

Note also that, according to Vehk, the Selectives referred to the Endeavour as the "Right Reaching" = "(re-)reaching the divine"?

"The secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of."

I've been wondering if those aspects were actually Anuiel, the "soul of Anu." The Selectives seem clearly Padomay-aligned. Perhaps they tried to replace Anuiel with Sithis/PSJJJJ, "soul of Padomay", as the progenitor of Akatosh? This would make sense in relation to the Endeavour. Time ---> chaotic change = "where time itself is bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'" = CHIM.

"Weird how each side call the other deceivers"

Yes, especially when they seem to be trying to accomplish much the same thing! Maybe they were jealous that men not mer discovered the way, or just thought that they hadn't gone about it correctly and basically messed it all up. Mehra Nabisi also notes: "We watched our borders and saw them shift like snakes, and saw you run around in it like the spirits of old, devoid of math, without your if-thens, succumbing to the Ever Now like slaves of the slim folly, stasis." This could point to the fact that the Selectives merely became trapped in the influence of Anu/stasis. The Dunmer would obviously see this as being completely beside the point of the Endeavour. They don't seem to have disapproved of the attempt itself on principle, though; "Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again." I won't mention the theory that the Marukhati became the Aedra ...

"How can the underking be both Ysmir and Zurin Arctus and the eternal champion..... while Tiber was still alive.... Or is Tiber NOT the eternal champion ?"

Answered in this thread: http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154134&view;=findpost&p;=2645392.

Posted by: proweler Nov 19 2005, 02:19 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 18 2005, 11:40 PM)
CHIM


http://til.gamingsource.net/vehk/vehk03.shtml

This notion can be found in the various monomyths. Before time began the Aurbis was in constant turbulence: a mix between Anu and Padomay, grey. In this turmoil the et'Ada shaped and destroyed themselves constantly but whit the coming of Akatosh this happened no more. As a result the Aurbis became divided in two parts: stasis and change, black and white, Oblivion and Aetherius.

Lorkhan did not like this state of the Aurbis.

http://til.gamingsource.net/vehk/vehk07.shtmlThis shows that Chim rests on the interaction of Anu and Padomay and notes the constant state of flux it causes.

This again shows that the idea of Chim rests on the interaction between Anu and Padomay and the constant state of flux it causes. It also notes the danger that comes whit the return to the flux. One is at risk of self destruction, the Love Letter hints at instructions on how to avoid this.

From this you should understand that Anu and Padomay are not stasis and change. To reach a constant state of flux, both elements are needed.

Posted by: B Nov 19 2005, 04:04 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 18 2005, 09:07 PM)
http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/xal_day_counted_hours.shtml
    Divayth Fyr, who you may recall from our days at Gwylim, has the whole of the Inner Sea interested in the varied guises of PSJJJJ again. One of his cohorts, who signs only 'B', has pulled all manner of pamphlets to the fore in an effort to get at the heart of the matter. And, though they know it not, the Aurbis is trembling as they near themselves to truth. (Incidentally, I have petitioned the Murder House for a Dram simulacrum, sixth-measure, in case Fyr or 'B'-- a Borgite, perhaps?-- come too close to waking the Sleepers.)
[snapback]3374712[/snapback]

Hey! Look! It's me! I'm a cohort, but certainly not a Borgite.

Now I will have to go back and reread this thread to see if I have anything meaningful to add.

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 19 2005, 06:59 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 19 2005, 01:19 PM)
From this you should understand that Anu and Padomay are not stasis and change. To reach a constant state of flux, both elements are needed.
[snapback]3377454[/snapback]

Thanks, that's a very clear summary. I'm still curious, though, as to why those actively promoting paths to CHIM - Veloth documenter of the "anti-laws that govern the Endeavour", Mephala, Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, Lorkhan (and perhaps now Dagon) - are the Padomay-aligned. The Aedra don't seem to be involved at all, and indeed were responsible for the the failure of "the first attempt at chim" by the decisions made in the Convention. CHIM may rely on the interaction between and balance of Anu and Padomay, but why does this state only appear desirable to those aligned with the Padomay side of the equation?

To put it another way: this distinction itself creates or reinforces a difference between Anu and Padomay, with the latter driving change to the former, even if this is to result in a new balance between the two. Anu in this context is the force of 'inertia' against which the Endeavour is directed, if not stasis as such. The Counter-Endeavour? Are the Aedra actually opposed to the idea of CHIM?

When it comes down to it, what exactly are the Aedra's plans for Nirn and the destiny of creation generally? Evolution rather than transcendence, perhaps? This would fit a commitment to the unfolding of change over time in an ordered progression, which is another way if balancing Anu and Padomay, I suppose, or at least another idea of balance. But evolution into what?

QUOTE
One of his cohorts, who signs only 'B', has pulled all manner of pamphlets to the fore in an effort to get at the heart of the matter.

B - what were those "all manner of pamphlets" again?

Posted by: Arynel Nov 19 2005, 08:06 PM

Recall that is was Boethiah, aided by Mephala, who originally taught the Chimer the rules for the Psijic Endeavor.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 08:45 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 19 2005, 01:30 AM)
Answered in this thread: http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154134&view;=findpost&p;=2645392.
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Not really. There is still much confusion.

And various factions disagree in who's who

Especially, the Underking (Zurin Arctus posing as the Underking, not Ysmir the Dragon) is identified as the eternal champion by the Kings of Worms.

There is a text (I don't remember where) saying that Ysmir was not Wulfgarth but instead Tiber Septim himself.

Obviously even if the Acturian Heresy is true

Zurin Arctua, Ysmir (as Wulfgarth) and Tiber (as Hjalti) are 3 different peoples.... each with different *faery tales* saying they are the eternal champion... and the eternal champion possibly being Lorkhan/Shezar/Shor

QUOTE
1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N


That part is especially weird. It could solve the apparent contradiction by saying it's really a single person with the power of existing in multiple places. While the Acturian Heresy says instead that Hjalti was a bettrayer/manipulator.

Septim is just the name Hjalti would have taken. Talos is just a nickname Tiber had. Ysmir is a nickname of either Wulfgarth or Tiber Septim.

We're far from done on that subject

Oh and there is that thing

QUOTE
The Devil of Dagoth had tricked the Nords, for the Heart of Shor was not in the eastern kingdoms, and had never been there at all.


in the http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/wulfharthsongs.shtml that sounds weird

If Shor=Lorkhan=Shezzar then clearly the hearth we destroyed was the hearth of Lorkhan...

And don't forget this part

QUOTE
Talos
(Tiber Septim, the Dragonborn)  Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Talos is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'. 


So who's Ysmir now ?

Posted by: proweler Nov 19 2005, 08:49 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 19 2005, 01:59 PM)
I'm still curious, though, as to why those actively promoting paths to CHIM - Veloth documenter of the "anti-laws that govern the Endeavour", Mephala, Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, Lorkhan (and perhaps now Dagon) - are the Padomay-aligned. 
[snapback]3379030[/snapback]


Mundus is located in the center of Oblivion which is surrounded by Aetherius. The stars pierce through Oblivion, allowing Magicka to flow into its center. This alone would be a reason for the Daedra to destroy Mundus.

One could even speculate that Mundus is closer to Anu then Padomay. Of the Aedra that took part in creation only Lorkhan was Padomay aligned. Thus to reach balance and complete the Endeavour one has to move towards Padomay.

For the Daedra this would be favorable, there would be less of Anu in the center of their realm and what better way to convince Man and Mer to do so by promising them freedom of all Mundane laws?

Alas the motivations of the gods are complicated and unknowable.



QUOTE(Astarsis @ Nov 19 2005, 03:45 PM)
That part is especially weird. It could solve the apparent contradiction by saying it's really a single person with the power of existing in multiple places.
[snapback]3379906[/snapback]


Ysmir and Tiber can be considerd one and the same. Wulfheart is Underking is Ysmir is aspect of Shor and Haljti is Tiber is aspect of Shor. Zurin Arctus dieth while serving his emperor.

Later on an undead wizard wizard blasts the Anumidium to pieces. The wizard controlled the skys, a clear sign that this is the reformed body of the Underking, Ysmir stormcrown. I would not be strange, he has reformed his body before and the Numidium still has his heart.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 19 2005, 09:15 PM

QUOTE(Arynel @ Nov 19 2005, 07:06 PM)
Recall that is was Boethiah, aided by Mephala, who originally taught the Chimer the rules for the Psijic Endeavor.
[snapback]3379596[/snapback]


So, to recap: the Endeavour was a founding principle of the "new nation based on Daedric principles" that helped to divide the Chimer from the other Aldmer, and especially the Elder Ways of the Altmer. But there are some contradictions here with regard to those who actually attempted the Endeavour or similar: Divayth Fyr remarked that "the Dwemer appear to have been most successful in the Endeavour than any mortal." Why, then, did the Princes appear hostile to their efforts, in the case of Azura regarding their use of the Heart as blasphemous?

The Dwemer worship of "a profane and secret power" (Nerevar at Red Mountain) rather than worship of the Daedra themselves seems an inadequate explanation to me (despite the lesson of 'Azura and the Box'). It might lead us to conclude, paradoxically, that the Endeavour and Daedra worship are in fact mutually incompatible. Or at least, that the Daedra regard *their* role in the Endeavour as being essential: attempts to achieve the state of CHIM without paying due homage to the Princes are punished accordingly.

In fact, all who have attempted the "taking of the Tower" (or theft of the secret of the "Crowned Tower" of CHIM) thus far have been punished or have otherwise seen their efforts thwarted.

And we must assume that whatever the "Three Thieves" accomplished, it was not akin to the Endeavour as conceived by the Daedra at all, or else why were the Chimer changed? Yet the Towers and their stones are clearly tools of the Endeavour, as witnessed by the original name of the Amulet of Kings. Hmm.

QUOTE(proweler)
One could even speculate that Mundus is closer to Anu then Padomay. Of the Aedra that took part in creation only Lorkhan was Padomay aligned. Thus to reach balance and complete the Endeavour one has to move towards Padomay.

For the Daedra this would be favorable, there would be less of Anu in the center of their realm and what better way to convince Man and Mer to do so by promising them freedom of all Mundane laws?

This is the clearest summary so far, I think!

Posted by: proweler Nov 19 2005, 09:41 PM

The profanity of the Dwemer mainly exists in the Chimers eyes. The Dwemer considered themselves equal to the gods. The Chimer worshipped them as idols of perfection. Imagine the shock to the Chimer when they heard of the Dwemer plans.

As I said before the motivations of the gods are complicated and unknowable. This is speculation. I don't think the Daedra want anybody to complete the Endeavour in full, just the step towards Padomay. The Dwemer thought they knew what they were doing and there is little to contradict this. They had the heart of a god and possibly all the souls of the Dwemer. This has the potential to form a a real god, one much stronger then a single person.

Azura is said to have cursed the Chimer, I don't think so. It would require a lot of power, power she could have used otherwise to prevent it all. It might have been part of the original enchantment to burn its targets. But again that is speculation.

I have little doubt the Tribunal completed the Endeavour. But it did not make the more then they already were. Every year they had to absorb power from the heart to act like gods in the eyes of the Dunmer.

Posted by: Arynel Nov 19 2005, 09:49 PM

Just because the Chimer learned about CHIM from the Daedra doesn't mean the Daedra wanted to teach it.

This is dangerous: Mortals have power.

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 19 2005, 10:16 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 19 2005, 08:41 PM)
I have little doubt the Tribunal completed the Endeavour. But it did not make the more then they already were. Every year they had to absorb power from the heart to act like gods in the eyes of the Dunmer.
[snapback]3380418[/snapback]

Interesting. What, then, does completing the Endeavour actually accomplish, in the end? It's notable that the Tribunal's actions in 2920 (to take just one example among many) are rather un-godly: Vivec acts and thinks like a general - albeit a sly one, though fooled by Prince Juilek's manoeuvre in the lake - both Sotha Sil and Almalexia need to travel in entirely mundane ways to/from Summerset Isle, none foresaw the breaking of the truce at Black Gate, etc. etc.

Hardly the stuff to inspire others on the Road to Liberty!

Posted by: Karnath Nov 19 2005, 10:21 PM

About Ysmir, Talos, Hjalti, Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, Wulfhart, the Underking and the Enantiomorph : sometimes a name can qualify not one person but the association of two or even three individuals, while these individuals can also be mere parts of something greater. There are also names for things that were, and names for things that have come to be, and, well, some people just can't stay dead.

Oh well.

QUOTE
The god of sorcery, Magnus [...] Cyrodilic legends say he can inhabit the bodies of powerful magicians and lend them his power. Associated with Zurin Arctus, the Underking.

Posted by: proweler Nov 19 2005, 10:33 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 19 2005, 05:16 PM)
Hardly the stuff to inspire others on the Road to Liberty!
[snapback]3380704[/snapback]


Power isn't everything.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 11:28 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 19 2005, 04:41 PM)
The profanity of the Dwemer mainly exists in the Chimers eyes. The Dwemer considered themselves equal to the gods. The Chimer worshipped them as idols of perfection. Imagine the shock to the Chimer when they heard of the Dwemer plans.
[snapback]3380418[/snapback]


It's always the age old problem of the pandora box. Do we open it ? Who's wiser ? The one that want to know what's inside ? Or the one with the wisdom not to open it.

If you got it by mail tommorow, a plain box written *PANDORA* ... what would you do ?

It is similar thinkering that broke the dragon in the past.

QUOTE
As I said before the motivations of the gods are complicated and unknowable. This is speculation. I don't think the Daedra want anybody to complete the Endeavour in full, just the step towards Padomay. 


I don't think they want any competition at all. and neither do they care about Padomay / Sithis. They are selfish, brutal, self focused.

Which make the whole Morrowind screwup appear so weird, because they seem to have acted in concert. Perhaps a common goal to be freed of Sotha Sil's pact ?

QUOTE
The Dwemer thought they knew what they were doing and there is little to contradict this. They had the heart of a god and possibly all the souls of the Dwemer. This has the potential to form a a real god, one much stronger then a single person.


I have no dount they thought so. Doubt it would have worked.
Gods are not made out of prayers, wishfull thinking or sheer will. They just mmanifested at the begining of time. A single entity won't start discussing with himself In my mind that makes a god stronger than a whole ocean of dwemer.

QUOTE
Azura is said to have cursed the Chimer, I don't think so. It would require a lot of power, power she could have used otherwise to prevent it all. It might have been part of the original enchantment to burn its targets. But again that is speculation.


The dwemer were too close to red tower to be harmed

Daedric power is ... quite powerless as they get near those towers
It's too ... cold ... so to speak

Cursing is something Daedra are good at doing

QUOTE
I have little doubt the Tribunal completed the Endeavour. But it did not make the more then they already were. Every year they had to absorb power from the heart to act like gods in the eyes of the Dunmer.


Didn't. They only tied themselves using Kangrenac tools so they could use the hearth's power. I doubt that trikery got them any closer to their goals on that purpose.

As the hearth got destroyed they got weaker. Proof the power wasn't theirs to start with.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 19 2005, 11:31 PM

Ah ! Thank you !

QUOTE(Karnath @ Nov 19 2005, 05:21 PM)
About Ysmir, Talos, Hjalti, Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, Wulfhart, the Underking and the Enantiomorph : sometimes a name can qualify not one person but the association of two or even three individuals, while these individuals can also be mere parts of something greater. There are also names for things that were, and names for things that have come to be, and, well, some people just can't stay dead.

Oh well.
[snapback]3380742[/snapback]

Posted by: proweler Nov 20 2005, 12:04 AM

I would open Pandora’s Box. There is no point in delaying the inevitable. But I would make certain hope comes out as well.

The Dwemer and Gods
Now back to our speculations. Most Mer consider themselves to be descendant of the gods. The Dwemer realized they were made of the same. In the Anumidium they would become one. The tools would alter history in such fashion that the god Dwemer would have existed since the beginning of time.

I think you would be surprised what gods can be made off. People find hope in the simplest things. The Psijic consider the gods to be spirits, created when the gods died (left). A similair idea can be found in the Light and the Dark.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Aurbis%20Myth

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtmlCooling Towers and the Daedra
I'm looking forward to see your scripture on the effects of the Towers on Oblivion. The Chimer were cursed while a good amount of them was standing in the shadow of Red Mountain.

The Tribunal
I think they did. It did not give them power but understanding, skill and immortality. It has never been disputed that the power they possessed was not theirs. As you should know the Tribunal disappeared from Public after they were ambushed by Dagoth Ur. They could not replenish their power and had to ration it.

Posted by: Luagar2 Nov 20 2005, 12:22 AM

QUOTE(Astarsis @ Nov 19 2005, 05:28 PM)
It is similar thinkering that broke the dragon in the past.
I don't think they want any competition at all. and neither do they care about Padomay / Sithis. They are selfish, brutal, self focused.
[snapback]3381307[/snapback]

They fear the darkness, so they cannot be indifferent to Sithis...

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 03:03 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 19 2005, 07:04 PM)
I think you would be surprised what gods can be made off. People find hope in the simplest things. The Psijic consider the gods to be spirits, created when the gods died (left). A similair idea can be found in the Light and the Dark.
[snapback]3381641[/snapback]


The trouble with TES Lore is that there is the folklore / tales / beliefs

but then underneath it all there seem to be a deliberate reality put in place, a true cosmology independant from the beliefs of the various religion.

That thing is the true reality. Anything else is conjectures

We know that long ago the Elfoney came and created the towers to maintain the mundus stable. Those are in part the ancestors of men and mer alike, and some of them (probably the strongest) are those who became known as the Aedra

But beyond that a lot isn't clear. What were they before thet created the mundus ?

Some legend seems to imply the Daedra are younger sibling of the Aedra. Sometime you get the feeling they're not even related. And other time you can either think they were both the same peoples that rifted appart.

Both the Daedra and Aedra seem a lot more physical than Tolkien's Valar

They remind me more of greek gold or of the Zelazny 9 princes in Amber's cosmology

In fact the unicorn was a major part of 9PiA - and the quest where you go inside a picture is a direct borrowing from the second serie.

There are also influences from Morcook's Elric (the eternal champion, the gods of law and chaos)

I think knowing those series and the greek mythology help a lot understanding TES cosmology

Unlike cosmology of Tolkien / Christian style, those of greek style (from which Elric and amber are derived, both Zelazny and Morcook were big fans of ancient Mythos).... anyway, back to my line

I was saying unlike Christian/Tolkien, the ancient mythos were more physical, with gods that walked the earth, were very human in nature, they ate, made love, made war on each other. In fact bessides being powerfull being they didn't create the universe The principle who created the universe are usually seen in those mythos are mounstruous and incomprehensible and without rational pattern.

The tittans are litterally walking monsters that cause cataclysm and those before them are even bigger and less mobile. Zeus actually killed his father and made war on the titans.

Likewise in Amber, Dworkin and the unnicorn created the universe, had children and fought those who used to be their breathen, the lords of chaos.

I don't recall Moorkook ever telling a clear story of creation. The gods of laws and chaos were endlessly fighting each others on all planes.

In the case of TES, the begining with Anhu and Pandomay ressemble a lot the greek Mythos, then it start diverging and get an Amber style with a metaphysical creation : building of towers as a mean to *congeal* reality. The Aedra seemed to change in style/shape. Going through manting and incarnation.

I personally doubt that there are exactly 8 deity. I even think the Aedra must be Daedra related and were possibly living in Oblivion before that and had back then power similar to the Daedra.

The creation in TES is definitivly an Amber style mystical/arcane/magical creation. It's not like the greek/christian style creation which are mostly an emanation thing where god (gods) create whatever he want. It's not either an alegory like the amerindian/eskimo myth.

That said we have to push beyond the texts currently written to understand what's set in motion

Talking about *set* Dear Azura was called Seht in one of the Morrowind book. Starngely remind me of Seth the egyptian god

QUOTE
Cooling Towers and the Daedra
I'm looking forward to see your scripture on the effects of the Towers on Oblivion. The Chimer were cursed while a good amount of them was standing in the shadow of Red Mountain.


That doesn't matter. The curses don't need to be instantaneous. As soon as they returned home they would be affected: Proof: neither of the 3 tribunal member got affected. protected as they were by their tie to Lorkhan

QUOTE
The Tribunal
I think they did. It did not give them power but understanding, skill and immortality. It has never been disputed that the power they possessed was not theirs. As you should know the Tribunal disappeared from Public after they were ambushed by Dagoth Ur. They could not replenish their power and had to ration it.


They got understanding. But they are no god. They didn't return to the divine or ascend. I guess that depend how you understand what the goal is. Different group or even individual may have different goals.

They are not immortal, unlike the Nerevar. Their life was lengthened through the power of creation.

By the way it may be that it's was not Lorkhan's hearth in the tower but rather Akatosh own's earth. or even anhu ? Who really knows...

For sure Wulfgath said it wasn't Shor's hearth.

As for the negative effects of the blight, I'll refer you to Amber Mythos which is in part based on Celtic Legend/ Excalibur/Merlin... that is the King and the Land are one. Whoever control the Tower affect the processus of creation and the land arround it. Dagoth Ur was no doubt driven mad by the Tribunal's betrayal. and the war must have drivven him madder. He was trying to extend his follower's life in an unatural way. He didn't want the 6th house to be over. And no doubt the disapearance of the Dwemer drove him mad as well.

In my mind, the is no doubt the 3 of the Tribunal had been manipulated by the Daedra and were all quite mad as well. I don't see them as god or even as wise. I pity them for their folly and their blind pacts.

I almost thought for a while that Azura was genuinly nice

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 03:06 AM

I'm not sure what you mean. I was talking about the Daedra. I don't think they fear Sithis. But they sure wouldn't like such strong competition. They woulndn't like Anhu's competition either. They reveal in war and chaos. I have never heard of Daedra being scared

QUOTE(Luagar2 @ Nov 19 2005, 07:22 PM)
They fear the darkness, so they cannot be indifferent to Sithis...
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Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 03:12 AM

QUOTE
The old man chuckled. "The gods have an unusual origin, if some of the oldest tales are true. The oldest inhabitants of this world -- no one seems to be sure what race they were -- had a system of myths that they believed in for a thousand years. The people of et'Ada believed for so long and so well, that their beliefs may, just may, have drawn upon the energies surrounding Tamriel to bring the gods themselves into being. If that is so, the conflict between the Light and the Dark provided the energy, and the et'Adans the structure, that created the gods of Tamriel. No one really knows since it was so long ago and so little survives from that time. It no longer matters; the gods have their own existence now, and mostly align with the Light, except for a few who are, shall we say, a little ambiguous."


I personaly think this one is just a legend.

There is quite a clear desription of the building of the towers and the gods being present. If the god created the world, they had to exist before it was created, before the oldest inhabitant of the world.

the belief from the text above is animism. the problem with animism is it doesn't answer the question *how was the world created*

at the extreme I can accept the concept of artificial construct, such as the tribunal gods. even the concept of chanelling ebergy to a god through prayer (but it would kill it if he's too weak to manage that energy)

As you can see being a god isn't an easy job

in any case the energy from creation is 10,000 x stronger than thhe sum of everyone's prayers

I doubt god need our prayers ! It's more the other way arround !

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 03:19 AM

QUOTE
"Long, long ago, before there were any people at all; even before the gods, Tamriel was chosen as a battleground by two -- things. It is difficult to find words that fit them well. I call them the Light and the Dark. Others use different names. Good and Evil, Bird and Serpent, Order and Chaos. None of these names really apply. It suffices that they are opposites, and totally antithetical. Neither is really good or evil, as we know the words. They are immortal since they do not really live, but they do exist. Even the gods and their daedric enemies are pale reflections of the eternal conflict between them. It's as though their struggle creates energies that distort their surroundings, and those energies are so powerful that life can appear, like an eddy in a stream."


That passage seem to support the concept of Order vs Chaos and of primeval energy. And it seem to indicate Tamriel as having a role similar to Amber being the focus of the battle

Now, my student, pay attention to the truth

QUOTE
Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been.

One idea, however, became jealous and did not want to die; like the stasis, he wanted to last. This was the demon Anui-El, who made friends, and they called themselves the Aedra. They enslaved everything that Sithis had made and created realms of everlasting imperfection. Thus are the Aedra the false gods, that is, illusion.

So Sithis begat Lorkhan and sent him to destroy the universe. Lorkhan! Unstable mutant!

Lorkhan had found the Aedric weakness. While each rebel was, by their nature, immeasurable, they were, through jealously and vanity, also separate from each other. They were also unwilling to go back to the nothing of before. So while they ruled their false dominions, Lorkhan filled the void with a myriad of new ideas. These ideas were legion. Soon it seemed that Lorkhan had a dominion of his own, with slaves and everlasting imperfections, and he seemed, for all the world, like an Aedra. Thus did he present himself as such to the demon Anui-El and the Eight Givers: as a friend.


That's it, we must join the Dark Brotherhood and eliminate all those stasis slaves !

LOL ! Incredible how things can get deformed. Still even in lies there are truth. It seem to support the possibility of Aedra being in fact daedra.

QUOTE
Go unto the Sharmat Dagoth Ur as a friend.

AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME LKHAN AE AI.


What the hell does that mean ?

Was Dagoth Ur a servant of Sithis ?

How are Herma Mora and Sithis linked ?

Herma Mora is the Daedra of knowledge.

Padhome of course is the Darkness.

I whish I could make sense of that weird language

QUOTE
In short, the Moons were and are the two halves of Lorkhan's 'flesh-divinity'. Like the rest of the Gods, Lorkhan was a plane(t) that participated in the Great Construction... except where the Eight lent portions of their heavenly bodies to create the mortal plane(t), Lorkhan's was cracked asunder and his divine spark fell to Nirn as a shooting star "to impregnate it with the measure of its existence and a reasonable amount of selfishness."

Masser and Secunda therefore are the personifications of the dichotomy-- the "Cloven Duality," according to Artaeum-- that Lorkhan legends often rail against: ideas of the anima/animus, good/evil, being/nothingness, the poetry of the body, throat, and moan/silence-as-the-abortive, and so on -- set in the night sky as Lorkhan's constant reminder to his mortal issue of their duty.


This passage from the Lunar Lorkhan is most interesting. It explain why he can be seen as both Dedra and Aedra, and why he is described as mutant and don't quite fit with either group.

As Shor he's the nice guy
As Lorkhan he's the trickster.

we learn also that the gods contributed part of themselves.

Would that be the bones ? Or that failing the stones ?

Clearly, just like the Daedra, they had their own plane.

Where would those be located ? In Aerethius perhaps ? Beyond the void ?

Lorkahan spark haven fallen to the earth would support the theory of Shor/Lorkhan/Shezar also being the eternal champion and ? Tiber Septim ?

At least we know that Zurin and the Underking were inhabited by Magnus essense (Is Magnus the same as Julianos ? Seems not...)
(Is their any link between those and Herma Mora ?)

Ah ! They're all evil ! I will wipe the towers and rebuild all from scratch

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 20 2005, 03:51 AM

QUOTE(Astarsis @ Nov 20 2005, 02:12 AM)
As you can see being a god isn't an easy job

in any case the energy from creation is 10,000 x stronger than thhe sum of everyone's prayers

I doubt god need our prayers ! It's more the other way arround !
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From http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b063_gods.shtml:

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 03:59 AM

Well this is a *recent text* and a religious one

The one I pay most attention to are the most ancient and craziest.

I agree that spirit are just spirit You can only chanell as much prayer as the strenght of your own soul.

I personally believe that the only truths are those who seem to satify the most facts of each religion. It's important to distinguish facts from superstitions... religions tend to be entraped with time.

All those who tried to play gods failed so far (Dragon break, dwemer disparition...)

I've added some very intersting notes on Lorkhan on the above post if you hit refresh

In fact, the nature of things is becoming clearer

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 19 2005, 10:51 PM)
From http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b063_gods.shtml:
    It has been theorized that gods do in fact gain strength from such things as worship through praise, sacrifice and deed. It may even be theorized that the number of worshippers a given Deity has may reflect on His overall position among the other Gods. This my own conjecture, garnered from the apparent ability of the larger temples to attain blessings and assistance from their God with greater ease than smaller religious institutions.

    There are reports of the existence of spirits in our world that have the same capacity to use the actions and deeds of mortals to strengthen themselves as do the Gods. The understanding of the exact nature of such creatures would allow us to understand with more clarity the connection between a Deity and the Deity's worshipers.

    The implication of the existence of such spirits leads to the speculation that these spirits may even be capable of raising themselves to the level of a God or Goddess. Motusuo of the Imperial Seminary has suggested that these spirits may be the remains of Gods and Goddesses who through time lost all or most of their following, reverting to their earliest most basic form. Practioners of the Old Ways say that there are no Gods, just greater and lesser spirits. Perhaps it is possible for all three theories to be true.
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Posted by: proweler Nov 20 2005, 04:00 AM

Tales and Fairytales
Try to speak of one world at a time. They are only similar in appearance, not in underlying principles.

I do not see why you question the number of participants in the creation of the Mortal plane, I hope that Y'frre and Magnus are still well known.

http://til.gamingsource.net/history/dawn.shtml

Cooling Towers and the Daedra
You have not given a reason "why" the towers would have such an effect. What makes you think they do? So far you have only shown that the heart might be involved in their ability to change their appearance.

A few more buts and ifs to drown in:

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/battle_redmountain.shtmlThe Tribunal
I'll let you argue whit Vivec. Maybe he has more patience.

http://til.gamingsource.net/tsomw/mw_18.shtmlPuzzles and Jigsaws
All the pieces have to fit, not just the ones you like.

Gods and metaphor

You should read more and take note of the metaphor in some stories. Then compair the common elements they have to draw your conclusions.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Aurbis%20Myth

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 05:34 AM

Cooling Towers ?

QUOTE
The Stones are magical and physical echoes of the Zero Stone, by which a Tower might focus its energy to mold creation. Oftentimes, the Stones borrowed surplus creation from Oblivion, grafting it to the terrestrial domain of its anointed Tower.

The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories. The Towers built on the Mundus, since the lands around them congealed in the absence of the gods, were unable to match the capriciousness of the Lords of Misrule.


QUOTE
Like all of the polydox constructs of the earliest Aldmer-- whatever their abnegaurbic creed-- White-Gold Tower is a conduit of creatia, aad sembia sembio, built to bring about a reversal of the congealing spiritual bleed caused by the Convention. In other words, it was a focus point for (re-)reaching the divine.


Seems you are right, the tower are not for cooling, at least not exactly.

I'm drawing a paralel with amber who was projecting shadows that ordered the universe. The closest to Amber the most stable reality was.

I still had the impression Daedra had trouble near the Towers

Creations numbers

Same text you quoted. No number are given. Other have strict numbers. I disagree

I'll let you argue whit Vivec.

He got a sore throat after our last meeting, because of a lenghty toothpick, if you see what I mean He won't speak anytime soon.

Dunmer

Backlash of Tribunal becoming gods ? Backlash of Dwemer trickery ?

You should read more and take note of the metaphor in some stories. Then compair the common elements they have to draw your conclusions.

Ho, I did read and reread a lot

The thing is some are superstitious texts, other are methaphysical, and finally ... those that interst me ... are those books or passage that draw to an older time, an older lore

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/anuad.shtml

Meanwhile, life sprang up on the twelve worlds of creation and flourished.

by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel

The blood of Padomay became the Daedra. The blood of Anu became the stars. The mingled blood of both became the Aedra

On the world of Nirn, all was chaos. The only survivors of the twelve worlds of Creation were the Ehlnofey and the Hist. The Ehlnofey are the ancestors of Mer and Men. The Hist are the trees of Argonia.

A large fragment of the Ehlnofey world landed on Nirn relatively intact, and the Ehlnofey living there were the ancestors of the Mer.

This war reshaped the face of Nirn, sinking much of the land beneath new oceans, and leaving the lands as we know them (Tamriel, Akavir, Atmora, and Yokuda). The Old Ehlnofey realm, although ruined, became Tamriel.

Doesn't it look like an interstellar battle ? Between two large intergalactic empires ...

In that version, no divines, no towers, nothing... But 12 worlds as the source of the population

QUOTE
This was a new thing that Shezarr described to the Gods, becoming mothers and fathers, being responsible, and making great sacrifices, with no guarantee of success, but Shezarr spoke beautifully to them, and moved them beyond mystery and tears. Thus the Aedra gave free birth to the world, the beasts, and the beings, making these things from parts of themselves. This free birth was very painful, and afterwards the Aedra were no longer young, and strong, and powerful, as they had been from the beginning of days.


That story is the oposite, a classic creation myth, not even any talk about the towers (Song of Shezar)

QUOTE
"Now when the Daedra Lords heard Shezarr, they mocked him, and the other Aedra. 'Cut parts of ourselves off? And lose them? Forever? That's stupid! You'll be sorry! We are far smarter than you, for we will create a new world out of ourselves, but we will not cut it off, or let it mock us, but we will make this world within ourselves, forever ours, and under our complete control.'


Surrender to the borgs, resistance is futile


QUOTE
"But this was a trick. As Lorkhan knew, this world contained more limitations than not and was therefore hardly a thing of Anu at all. Mundus was the House of Sithis. As their aspects began to die off, many of the et'Ada vanished completely. Some escaped, like Magnus, and that is why there are no limitations to magic. Others, like Y'ffre, transformed themselves into the Ehlnofey, the Earthbones, so that the whole world might not die. Some had to marry and make children just to last. Each generation was weaker than the last, and soon there were Aldmer. Darkness caved in. Lorkhan made armies out of the weakest souls and named them Men, and they brought Sithis into every quarter.


That version is really weird compared to the one in the Anuad

The only thing I know is that somewhere in all those text might be some truth. I think the further you go from superstition the closest you are to facts. But keeping in mind magic do exist.

Just keep in mind how Dwemer tinkering look pretty much like advanced technology, and how the Daedric temple were made of really weird metals, in fact so close to Dwemer in style.

But not technology like we know it here, rather a blend of magic and technology

I can't seem to find another version that seemed to describe an Aedra descending aboard a spaceship ... here it is.. foro the new information of Nu-Hatta ( who you surely understood by now is really a Bethesda Developer, most likely a writter )

Auriel-that-is-Akatosh returned to Mundex Arena from his dominion planet, signalling all Aedra to convene at a static meeting that would last outside of aurbic time. His sleek and silver vessel became a spike into the changing earth and the glimmerwinds of its impact warned any spirit that entered aura with it would become recorded-- that by consent of presence their actions here would last of a period unassailable, and would be so whatever might come later to these spirits, even if they rejoined the aether or succumbed willingly or by
treachery to a sithite erasure. Thus could the Aedra and their cohorts truly covene in realness.

It could even been more than intergalactic buth rather interdimensional. It sure look like the myths are myths and the truth is more subtle.

In Morrowind there sure were things that looked a bit sci-fi. The Moon.... and the story surrounding it ...

QUOTE
This sundering of purpose is the myth of the "destruction of Aldmeris." Outside of the Dawn, and even then only in the dreamtime of its landscape, there was never a terrestrial homeland of the Elves. "Old Ehlnofey" is a magical ideal of mixed memories of the Dawn.

Do not believe the written histories.

All mortal life started on the starry heart of Dawn's beauty, Tamriel.


Here goes nothing...

When you read all the creations texts as well as the new information, it get trully contradictory. One thing thought. There is a likehood of spaceship/stellar empire description by primitive cultures might be the real truth. While fairy tales... are just that.

I suspect the truth is more along the line of transdimensional travel, and more magical than technological. But surely there is the concept of two large culture clashing (Pandomay and Anhu) and a mixed race resulting. much akin to Lorkhan the mutant

So the Aedra and the Pandomay, human with mixed Daedric blood might be one and the same ?

I'll be back next week Much to ponder in the meantime

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Nov 20 2005, 05:54 AM



AAARRRGGHH! So confusing! Can't make sense of the text.....what does it all mean?

Ah hell....praise be to Sheogorath!

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 20 2005, 09:06 AM

Just when I thought we were getting somewhere, we're back to spaceships ...

Time to ring the changes on the All-Maker's Goat and turn this kalpa, perhaps?

Posted by: delonewolf Nov 20 2005, 04:07 PM

@ astarsis

i feel exactly the same way. The only things i can't figure out are the daedra (immortal race from another dimension?) and the ability to raise yourself to godhood (like the tribunal did)

for the rest i agree that most pieces are there for 'a spaceship/stellar empire description by primitive cultures' ... well put ;-)

let's not forget the last dwarve was somewhere 'away' when his race dissapeared so interdimensional travel seems like a possibility

Posted by: KuKulzA Nov 20 2005, 05:26 PM

yes... and what if there are other Dwemer out there? or what if others are out in the other dimensions that are not Nirn or Oblivion?
...or what if people put their souls in the other dimension but send their bodies to Nirn, similar but not like the Daedra? would they be 'immortal'? would they be 'invincible'?

Posted by: B Nov 20 2005, 07:27 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 19 2005, 12:59 PM)
B - what were those "all manner of pamphlets" again?
[snapback]3379030[/snapback]

If I remember correctly, it refers to the time I went exploring through an ancient archive and found this: http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/chaos.shtml. As you can see, it is now available at the Library.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 07:31 PM

QUOTE(Cloud Tiamat @ Nov 20 2005, 12:54 AM)


AAARRRGGHH! So confusing! Can't make sense of the text.....what does it all mean?

Ah hell....praise be to Sheogorath! 
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QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 20 2005, 04:06 AM)
Just when I thought we were getting somewhere, we're back to spaceships ...

Time to ring the changes on the All-Maker's Goat and turn this kalpa, perhaps?
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You guys make perfect sense

Personally I started breaking appart all my red pencil to get the red ink out

I letter figured out using any-collored-pencil-or-pen word, I just need to plunge them into someone to collect the red ink

QUOTE(delonewolf @ Nov 20 2005, 11:07 AM)
@ astarsis

i feel exactly the same way. The only things i can't figure out are the daedra (immortal race from another dimension?) and the ability to raise yourself to godhood (like the tribunal did)

for the rest i agree that most pieces are there for 'a spaceship/stellar empire description by primitive cultures' ... well put ;-)

let's not forget the last dwarve was somewhere 'away' when his race dissapeared so interdimensional travel seems like a possibility
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Lovecraft and some of his friends had an interesting concept of otherworldy alien that had a more genetic-based technology

and could almost live in the depth of space

Yet that Chtuloid style was more typical of the 6th house, even if some Daedra seems monstruous

The Daedric architecture sure look weird

The Daedric armor of Morrowind had an organic aspect, but the new armor have a more technological aspect

I think we may be dealing with inhuman type of technologies, just as alien and incomprehensible as Superman's Ice Forteress, but in a more twisted way

QUOTE
yes... and what if there are other Dwemer out there? or what if others are out in the other dimensions that are not Nirn or Oblivion?
...or what if people put their souls in the other dimension but send their bodies to Nirn, similar but not like the Daedra? would they be 'immortal'? would they be 'invincible'?


I don't think so, Tribunal's immortality came from drawing *creatia* from the red tower, and they had to attune on a regular basis. I think, contrary to Nerevar corprus-induced immortality, that Vive immortality was artificially maintained. Could be he also got corprus and the cure just like we did.

The Dwemer are all in Oblivion and they are all dead...
search and you'll find it


Sheogorath ... Shub Nigurath
Anyone noticed the similarity in names ?
Both are lords of madness
Shub Nigurath of course is of Chtuloid Mythos

Ah, if Nyarlathothep could come to us and explain it all, delivering to us the all-encompassing madness

Posted by: proweler Nov 20 2005, 08:59 PM

Towers
You assume that reality is unstable, now I see. I don't think this assumption is right. It was the structure of Mundus that was unstable. Now in some ways this could be considerd reality but this unstability would be reality.

From what I understand they drain Magicka from Oblivion.

Creations numbers
It depends on the definition used. Y'frre and Magnus are each examples of those groups that are not counted in any myths.


The Anuad, myth and metaphor
My personal opinon of the Anuad involves a lot of fire.

I wouldn't consider the Anuad a classic creation myth. It has been written quite resently, as it mentions some what resent events. The Anuad is also a book of methaphore and one of the more populair myths. As the Pocket Guide puts it "the beautiful heresies of the Anuad, surviving only by virtue of their popularity and proliferation". Not supricing, as it avoids most racial and religious bias about Lorkhan, the Aedra and the Daedra.

Also understand that not every myth is the complete story, not even the Anuad is complete. Some elements are lost in time, forgotten or people no longer wish to hear about them. Some people, like the Nords, seperate the events over various myths and songs.

Yet they all speak of the same event, the creation of the World. I would suggest you to read all the monomyths and see how they fit together. Start whit the Altmeri myth, it fits on most other myths.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Altmeri

Also consider this:
http://til.gamingsource.net/gods/altmer.shtmlTthe Heart of the World mentions the Ehlnofey war and the convention at the adamtine tower, but in a different way.

From Nu-Hatta we know that the Ur-Tower, Red Mountain was build around the time of the convention. Thus we know that it happend after Lorkhan was slain but before Auriel Ascended.

If you rember that the Ehlnofey from the Anuad are not the Earthbones but the offspring of the gods, Man and Mer, you should be able to see that Ehlnofey war was this battle or Auri-el against Lorkhan.

The part you qouted is a verry detailed acount of the convention. Most myths do not go into that much detail and you'll have to work whit the general detail. I could show you more of these connections but that would ruin the fun of it.

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 20 2005, 09:31 PM

QUOTE(B @ Nov 20 2005, 06:27 PM)
If I remember correctly, it refers to the time I went exploring through an ancient archive and found this: http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/chaos.shtml.  As you can see, it is now available at the Library.
[snapback]3388051[/snapback]

Interesting ... so there's a definite link between 'the Tharnatos' and 'the Sleepers', after all ...

Posted by: KuKulzA Nov 20 2005, 09:42 PM

...and these sleepers aren't the 6th House sleepers right?

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 20 2005, 11:04 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 20 2005, 03:59 PM)
The part you qouted is a verry detailed acount of the convention. Most myths do not go into that much detail and you'll have to work whit the general detail. I could show you more of these connections but that would ruin the fun of it.
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Noooo ! (Yagrum Bargam style)

You must tell us all about it !



the beautiful heresies

but I like heresies, since contrary to sacred texts they often draw from ollder purer yet descacrated knowledge

remember myths are just that, myths, that is flok tales that got put on an altar an encased in ice so they would not be changed, questioned or discussed. They often were themselves heresies i their own time

The anuad may be recent, but it's sources isn't

QUOTE
You assume that reality is unstable, now I see. I don't think this assumption is right. It was the structure of Mundus that was unstable. Now in some ways this could be considerd reality but this unstability would be reality.


I'm not sure I follow you

I was saying that before daedra and aedra, at the time of anhu and padomay, the only world was chaos, and that aetherius and nirn are more stable / less chaotic - while the Daedric realms are probably forever changing, embracing total chaos and following no laws.

It's reasonable to assume the tower maintain creation by oposing whatever changes the Daedra might try to initiate.

In short the towers ARE the barrier, or at least the source of the barrier

The war against Lorkhan is interesting.


My guess is, if the intergallactic / interdimensional version is true, then after the war between Anhu and Pandomay was over, the leftover worlds tried to create a new colony (Nirn) Padomay returned and attacked it, but Anhu wasn't too far beind. Then something happened that destroyed those civivilisation. However Pandomay left behind the Daedra. Which for the moment seemed to stay away from Nirn, probably busy licking their own wounds.

On Nirn war erupted between the Aedras.

It somewhat remind me a lot of Babylon 5 with the Shadows and the Vorlons. The Daedra are much like the follower of the Shadows (the Drakh) and the Aedra are much like the followers of the Vorlons, the Mimbari

The funny part is Auriel being an elf... and yet an Aedra. Sending us back to the hypothesis that they work through reincarnation (mostly) and that other thing called manting.

There was an interesting part talking about the numidification of Akatosh

Posted by: Eralion Sethos Nov 20 2005, 11:42 PM

QUOTE(Astarsis @ Nov 20 2005, 03:04 PM)
Noooo ! (Yagrum Bargam style)

You must tell us all about it !

     

the beautiful heresies

but I like heresies, since contrary to sacred texts they often draw from ollder purer yet descacrated knowledge

remember myths are just that, myths, that is flok tales that got put on an altar an encased in ice so they would not be changed, questioned or discussed. They often were themselves heresies i their own time

The anuad may be recent, but it's sources isn't
I'm not sure I follow you

I was saying that before daedra and aedra, at the time of anhu and padomay, the only world was chaos, and that aetherius and nirn are more stable / less chaotic - while the Daedric realms are probably forever changing, embracing total chaos and following no laws.

It's reasonable to assume the tower maintain creation by oposing whatever changes the Daedra might try to initiate.

In short the towers ARE the barrier, or at least the source of the barrier

The war against Lorkhan is interesting.
My guess is, if the intergallactic / interdimensional version is true,  then after the war between Anhu and Pandomay was over, the leftover worlds tried to create a new colony (Nirn) Padomay returned and attacked it, but Anhu wasn't too far beind. Then something happened that destroyed those civivilisation. However Pandomay left behind the Daedra. Which for the moment seemed to stay away from Nirn, probably busy licking their own wounds.

On Nirn war erupted between the Aedras.

It somewhat remind me a lot of Babylon 5 with the Shadows and the Vorlons. The Daedra are much like the follower of the Shadows (the Drakh) and the Aedra are much like the followers of the Vorlons, the Mimbari

The funny part is Auriel being an elf... and yet an Aedra. Sending us back to the hypothesis that they work through reincarnation (mostly) and that other thing called manting.

There was an interesting part talking about the numidification of Akatosh
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I believe its supposed to be 'mantling', the act of putting on a mantle or cloak, not 'manting'.

Posted by: proweler Nov 21 2005, 12:01 AM

Heresy
A heresy is a controversial or unorthodox doctrine, one contrary to established religious beliefs. The Pocket Guide was written as a piece of propaganda by the Empire. Merish believes are quite opposed to Human believes, hence Merish writings would be called heresy.

They are myths but they show an uncanny resemblance to each other. They also deal about times we could not possibly have had knowledge off. This leads to the assumption that these myths have not always been myths. They once were history lessons from the gods and over time these lessons were partially forgotten or altered into more graphic stories to explain the abstract concepts.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Intro

Nirn on the Highwire

You are correct. Mundus was created by the Aedra from their own bodies. Before that happened the Aurbis was divided in Void and Magic. Before that it was in a state of constant flux.
http://til.gamingsource.net/vehk/vehk03.shtmlBut I must urge you to do away stasis and change. They are too limited as a description. Remember that Anu and Padomay are perceived as stasis and change by some and many names apply.

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtmlThe Towers, the Barrier
Little is know about the barrier that protects Mundus against the Daedra. We know that Mundus receives magical input from Aetherius. This alone should already push the void back.

http://til.gamingsource.net/bsbooks/anchor_warning.shtml (Battlespire)We also know that the Amulet of Kings was made in the first Era, long after the Aedra left Mundus and we also know that the Towers were build after the first two. From this you could conclude that the Towers protect Mundus, but you must add that Mundus has not always been protected like this.

Gods and their descendants
As you should have read in the introduction of the Monomyth, man and mer have different views on their origin.

Heart of the WorldIn this light Auri-el being an Altmer almost seems obvious and he ascended (Psijic death) from Mundus. He was a god walking the Mundus, not an incarnate or a refracted image. He was like Vivec but whit much more natural power.

http://til.gamingsource.net/gods/altmer.shtmlThe Anuad is metahphorical but you can find the same form of methaphore in http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/clanmother.shtml. It replaces Lorkhan and Auriel by Anu and Padomay.

It is a good way to watch the everlasting interaction between Anu and Padomay but has little value if you want to explain history. More detail in motivation and action is needed for that.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 21 2005, 02:16 AM

Or very exactly Manting

as in

Mantela
Ada-Mantium
Nu-Mantia



QUOTE(Eralion Sethos @ Nov 20 2005, 06:42 PM)
I believe its supposed to be 'mantling', the act of putting on a mantle or cloak, not 'manting'.
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Posted by: Astarsis Nov 21 2005, 02:34 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ Nov 20 2005, 07:01 PM)
Heresy
A heresy is a controversial or unorthodox doctrine, one contrary to established religious beliefs. The Pocket Guide was written as a piece of propaganda by the Empire. Merish believes are quite opposed to Human believes, hence Merish writings would be called heresy.
[snapback]3390685[/snapback]


We should be allowed to create our own personal Heresies, and TES4_Online should consist of writting books in real time and quickly send them to other worlds (other players) to drive them mad from too much knowledge ... muhahaha @Astarsis

Yes, I noticed there is quite a big oposition between Men and Mer.

I still don't understand why Lorkhan is seen as evil. Could he be the Eternal Champion ? Are the Mer the Aedra ? How many Mer to fix a magical dwemer lantern ?

So many questions so few answers...

Maybe TES4 will give some answers.

TES3 seem to be technical in style. I hope TES4 stick closer to Fantasy. I'm even open to fantasy interstellar travel. But too much spachehips really kill the immersion. I hated the conclusion of Might and Magic 6. Lazer Guns ? And why the hell would they be more powerfull than magic or dragons ?

I did appreciate that in TES3 they tried to keep it closer to fantasy. with rusted metal and steam.[COLOR=red]

I would have liked it better if it would have been golem and magical formala instead of steam and electricity. Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire had none of that.

Posted by: Shardie Nov 21 2005, 03:06 AM

QUOTE(Astarsis @ Nov 21 2005, 12:34 PM)
I still don't understand why Lorkhan is seen as evil. Could he be the Eternal Champion ? Are the Mer the Aedra ? How many Mer to fix a magical dwemer lantern ?

[snapback]3391889[/snapback]


Lorkhan is seen as evil by the elves for a rather simple reason. He tricked thier ansestors into creating Nirn, hence loosing thier godhood. Hence, Lorkhan cost the Mer thier godhood, as they believe that they are the decendents from the gods.

He is also seen as evil by the Redguard too

Posted by: adamant_2001 Nov 21 2005, 12:36 PM

I wonder what the phrase 'Green Emperor' has to do with the discussion at hand. A message hidden in plain sight in a work by Mankar Camoran.

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Nov 21 2005, 12:57 PM

QUOTE(Shardie @ Nov 20 2005, 09:06 PM)
Lorkhan is seen as evil by the elves for a rather simple reason. He tricked thier ansestors into creating Nirn, hence loosing thier godhood. Hence, Lorkhan cost the Mer thier godhood, as they believe that they are the decendents from the gods.
[snapback]3392128[/snapback]


Only they would be that smug.

Posted by: proweler Nov 21 2005, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(Cloud Tiamat @ Nov 21 2005, 07:57 AM)
Only they would be that smug.
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They might be right.

Posted by: featherbrain Nov 21 2005, 06:58 PM

Astarsis: But too much spachehips really kill the immersion



Sig-able.

Posted by: Astarsis Nov 30 2005, 02:11 AM

Nice quote !

QUOTE(featherbrain @ Nov 21 2005, 01:58 PM)
Astarsis:  But too much spachehips really kill the immersion



Sig-able.
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Posted by: calgor Nov 30 2005, 01:59 PM

Hmm, and only now I notice this. It appears there has been more activity here than I've been aware of. Pity that we heard no more of Nu-Hatta, perhaps it was noisy...

Posted by: B Nov 30 2005, 03:01 PM

QUOTE(calgor @ Nov 30 2005, 07:59 AM)
Hmm, and only now I notice this. It appears there has been more activity here than I've been aware of. Pity that we heard no more of Nu-Hatta, perhaps it was noisy...
[snapback]3475310[/snapback]

No reply has been given to Nu-Hatta's concerns, at least none that appears here. Perhaps he gave up trying to warn them (us), or maybe he was asked to keep silent.

Posted by: Xanathar Nov 30 2005, 03:53 PM

QUOTE(B @ Nov 30 2005, 09:01 PM)
No reply has been given to Nu-Hatta's concerns, at least none that appears here. Perhaps he gave up trying to warn them (us), or maybe he was asked to keep silent.
[snapback]3475542[/snapback]


I can only point to this:
QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 24 2005, 07:08 AM)
Before I proceed, let it be known that I abide by the Council's wish to move the quadragraph further along. I rescind memo-spore lessonate sendings IV-IX from the dreamsleeve. They are become un-present at this session.

I take my right to present two more, however, as under the Invocation of the Invisible Gate.
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Too bad...

Posted by: calgor Nov 30 2005, 11:21 PM

Oh, yes, so he said. The curse of the five-second memory... My apologies.

Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Jan 1 2006, 02:46 PM

I wonder if the current leader of Mythic Dawn is a descendant of Haymon.

Posted by: Uber Vampire Slayer Jan 2 2006, 05:15 AM

here is what i think..
the mortal plane was a stepping stone to a higher existence, higher than the gods
only the worthy could do so every1 else dies
here is why i think that:
http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml
this is a letter from the (thats right) FIFTH ERA

it seems that the mortal plane was meant to be destroy eventually from the moment of creation

Posted by: featherbrain Jan 14 2006, 03:27 AM

QUOTE(Nu-Hatta @ Sep 22 2005, 10:40 PM)
By secret glyph: dreamsleeve transmission
Dreamsleeve: urgent, security protocols granted
Security protocols: Sphinxmoth ancestor wraithbone wards

To Chancellor Ocato, in mastery! In triumph! In absolute moral good!

Forgive my direct sending, Chancellor, and know that I do this with the respect of every ancestor in my beard, but Grandmaster Jauffre has never responded to previous efforts to warn Empire Actual of the findings of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree. I admit that these warnings may have been too esoteric to merit the attention they deserve.

[right][snapback]2807469[/snapback][/right]


An early quest involving the Amulet of Kings and our apathetic friend Grandmaster Jauffre (at the Weynon Priory) is described in the latest Game Informer preview, as summarised by Hetz http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=217897&view;=findpost&p;=3862964 and BenGraven http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=218268&view;=findpost&p;=3870378.

These summaries obviously contain many SPOILERS, so be warned.



Posted by: Cloud Tiamat Apr 22 2006, 12:10 AM

So what of the Ayleids still being around? Is that referring to Mankar Camoran?

Posted by: Lorenor Zorro Apr 22 2006, 01:04 AM

Read this , but im slightly confused. And who are the people posting this?


So the Ayleds are coming back and they made a pacth with some daedra? ... im really confused. hehe

Posted by: Fishy Apr 22 2006, 01:06 AM

Mankar is supposed to be an Ayleid and he sure as hell made a pact with a Daedra...

Posted by: SloadTR Nov 5 2006, 08:34 AM

We're performing necromancy because the royal we are left with questions.

We see that many beyond the Council have access to the Dreamsleeve. Is Hasphat, thus, of the council? He speaks as if he is.

What was contained in memo-spore lessonates IV-IX?

Who is Ruma? What did this person mean?

Why didn't the others keep playing?

Posted by: Flannigus Nov 5 2006, 09:35 AM

QUOTE(SloadTR @ Nov 5 2006, 02:34 AM) [snapback]8512752[/snapback]

Who is Ruma? What did this person mean?


I assumed it was Ruma Cameron, Mankar's daughter.

I'm actually glad you raised the thread, because though I've read the Intercept on TIL, I've never read all of the other in-character replies to it.

Posted by: Albides Nov 5 2006, 09:54 AM

QUOTE(Flannigus @ Nov 5 2006, 07:35 PM) [snapback]8512935[/snapback]

I assumed it was Ruma Cameron, Mankar's daughter.

I think he means which dev is playing her.

I too would be interested to know what she meant.

Posted by: Adanorcil Nov 5 2006, 01:04 PM

QUOTE
We see that many beyond the Council have access to the Dreamsleeve. Is Hasphat, thus, of the council? He speaks as if he is.


I don't see how having access to a dreamsleeve relates to being a member of a council, though he might be.


Before I proceed, let it be known that I abide by the Council's wish to move the quadragraph further along. I rescind memo-spore lessonate sendings IV-IX from the dreamsleeve. They are become un-present at this session.

Seeing that Nu-Hatta was presenting the lessonates in the quadragraph format:


Please, let me assure you I shall abide by Council measure and present my findings in the accepted quadragraph form of old: metaphysical root, historical lessonates, present threat assessment, and assumption of enemy maneuvers. All Elders who wish to enter trance-state may do so now.


He skipped some history lessons.

Posted by: Doctor_Huxtable Nov 5 2006, 01:47 PM

QUOTE(Adanorcil @ Nov 5 2006, 06:04 AM) [snapback]8513567[/snapback]

He skipped some history lessons.


I can assure you that the Guild of Bards will lambast him most unkindly for this through song and poem alike.

Posted by: The Raisin Nov 5 2006, 05:07 PM

Woah, I love being on these forums. The most important parts of lore happen before us. Well, I'm all excited now.

Posted by: SloadTR Nov 5 2006, 06:35 PM

QUOTE(Adanorcil @ Nov 5 2006, 04:04 AM) [snapback]8513567[/snapback]

I don't see how having access to a dreamsleeve relates to being a member of a council, though he might be.


You've misinterpretted the question. Obviously, many with access to the dreamsleeve were not of the council. But also obviously, all members of the council had access to the dreamsleeve. The question is, which characters are of the council? Specifically, was Mr. Antabolis? He isn't who one would expect on the Council, yet he seconds the Chancellor.

QUOTE

He skipped some history lessons.


Hence my question as to what was in them.

Posted by: Drizzt II Nov 5 2006, 07:13 PM

QUOTE(Lorenor Zorro @ Apr 21 2006, 07:04 PM) [snapback]5861514[/snapback]

Read this , but im slightly confused. And who are the people posting this?
So the Ayleds are coming back and they made a pacth with some daedra? ... im really confused. hehe

I belive it is a member creating several accounts and after he\she finished the posts they unregistered.
I don't see why they are doing this though

Posted by: Gez Nov 5 2006, 08:03 PM

Most of these accounts (Nu-Hatta, Hasphat Antabolis, and Vehk definitely) were made by developers and these in-character threads were made to build some excitement for the incoming game, Oblivion, which was not yet released at the time.

The accounts are no longer registered because they're just been inactive for so long that the forum software deleted them automatically.

MK recreated a Vehk account some times ago.

Posted by: Drizzt II Nov 5 2006, 09:30 PM

Oh Ok

Posted by: Only Asks Once Nov 6 2006, 06:06 AM

QUOTE(SloadTR @ Nov 5 2006, 12:34 AM) [snapback]8512752[/snapback]

We're performing necromancy because the royal we are left with questions.

We see that many beyond the Council have access to the Dreamsleeve. Is Hasphat, thus, of the council? He speaks as if he is.

What was contained in memo-spore lessonates IV-IX?

Who is Ruma? What did this person mean?

Why didn't the others keep playing?



QUOTE(Ruma @ Sep 24 2005, 07:26 PM) [snapback]2826336[/snapback]

Yes, Nu-Hatta, why don't you just tell them the truth?

Or your real affiliation?

Or is this one of father's underking tactics again?


Oh, my... One of fathers's underking tactics? Ruma is Mankar Camoran's daughter... Mankar... An incarnation of the Underking? Oh my...

Posted by: Gez Nov 6 2006, 11:07 AM

Or "underking-like" tactics, meaning Mankar behaved like the Underking. Of course, with these legendary characters, appearance is essence; by scheming like the Underking Mankar can become the Underking.

Posted by: TheManEatingHamster Nov 6 2006, 07:31 PM

QUOTE(The Raisin @ Nov 5 2006, 11:07 AM) [snapback]8514525[/snapback]

Woah, I love being on these forums. The most important parts of lore happen before us. Well, I'm all excited now.


I was excited too. Pity Oblivion never expanded on, well... any of it.

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