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Thrice
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Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada
      #2593590 - 05/18/04 05:49 AM

What is the creation of the Et'Ada and how is Lorkhan wondering it if he is no longer a god?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: Thrice]
      #2593753 - 05/18/04 06:42 AM

The creation of the Et'ada(in this case referring to the Aedra) is Mundus.

Lorkhan did not fully die, most likely. His heart still beats, so there is some life left. When his Heart was cast down upon Mundus, Lorkhan bound himself more deeply to the Mortal Plane than any of the Aedra, for he is part of all living things. As such, he can manifest himself by bonding with a mortal and thus become truly livng for a short time. In truth, I believe this may be the way with all of the Et'ada who died during the creation of Mundus. Their souls are bound to the Heart, and travel from body to body. In each body they grow and change, becoming more than they were. That is the way Lorkhan sought to fulfill the Psijic Endeavor. Because it is his Heart, his manifestations are the strongest, and change the timeline. It is believed that he may have been the greatest heroes of mankind, and speculation has arisen that he was in fact both Zurin Arctus and Tiber Septim.

NOTE: The second paragraph is theories.

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Zenpachou
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2594907 - 05/18/04 06:39 PM

Very interesting theory, Basilisk...I never even considered that! I guess I always thought of the "wandering" as more a metaphore than a reality. It bears consideration.

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Nigedo
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2595422 - 05/18/04 10:02 PM

Quote:

The second paragraph is theories.



And very astute theories too.

There is another part of Lorkhan that wanders. According to the Yokudan (Redguard) creation myth, Lorkhan is Sep, the Second Serpent, who wanders the heavens as a hungry void that tries to devour the stars.

This void is acknowledged throughout Tamriel as the Serpent constellation.

But the wandering part of Lorkhan directly referred to in VOF is almost certainly similar to the way TS has described it.

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Ash_Sage825
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: Nigedo]
      #2595797 - 05/19/04 12:13 AM

Magnus was involved in the creation of Mundus yes? If so what happened to him?

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Carecalmo
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: Ash_Sage825]
      #2595825 - 05/19/04 12:19 AM

Magnus was the architect of Mundus, he was the one who "made" the Mundus, before the other gods created it. Some people say that Magnus retreated from creation at the very last moment, but that he paid dearly for it. They say that the magic left in the Mundus is the remains of Magnus, IIRC.

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Thrice
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2596119 - 05/19/04 01:54 AM

So, did he steal Talo's body and chang it into Tiber Septim, or was Tiber Septim always a mortal with Lorkhan's soul? If he stole his body, then he is probably not so good so unless you tell me otherwise i will believe he didn't steal it.

Also, if Tiber Septim was Lorkhan and Tiber Septim became as powerful as a god after death, than wouldn't that mean that lorkhan has become a god again and is worshipped in the form of Tiber Septim?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: Thrice]
      #2596326 - 05/19/04 03:09 AM

Magnus didn't create Mundus before the Aedra; he formed the plans and helped in the initial construction. The magicka he left is unlimited because when he escaped he fled to Aurbis. The paths he left, the lines of magick, are linked from Mundus to Aurbis, and carry its energy to Mundus.

Lorkhan was a part of Talos, Zurin Arctus, or possibly both. He did not control them.

That is what Lorkhan intended. Through the constant cycle of death and rebirth he was changed and transcended Change and Stasis, becoming a spirit once again.

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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2597025 - 05/19/04 06:38 AM

Lorkhan was a part of Talos, Zurin Arctus, or possibly both.

If he was one of them, then he was both of them: The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - TiL, Skeleton Man's Interview

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: Vireyar]
      #2597100 - 05/19/04 07:07 AM

I believe that the Serpent is not actually Lorkhan, but is instead what assumed his place. It is said that when Lorkhan's Heart was sundered from him, his absence in the immortal plane left a void, from which sprang Sheogorath. Sheogorath is the opposite of Lorkhan, and yet a part of him. Sheogorath may be the true enemy of the world, because if Lorkhan is the source of all life, then Sheogorath, his counterpart, may be the source of all unlife. Lorkhan's Heart continues to keep the world in balance, but Sheogorath's insanity may threaten to destroy it all.

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mafafu
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2597200 - 05/19/04 08:04 AM

Quote:

I believe that the Serpent is not actually Lorkhan




But Lorkhan has another side to him other than his Heart. An opposite side. That is the hunger of the Yokudan mythology that wanders the stars.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: mafafu]
      #2597266 - 05/19/04 08:52 AM

I think we're both saying the same thing, it's just we go two ways to the same point. The Serpent is Sheogorath, the opposite of Lorkhan. Sheogorath is all the evil within Lorkhan which could not be a part of Mundus. He shed it off, and took only that which could be salvaged with his Heart. The skin he left behind, the refuse of evil and hatred, congealed into Sheogorath. They are opposite sides of the same coin, one white and one black. The Serpent is Lorkhan in that Lorkhan was once shared his existence with it. The Serpent, however, is now separate from the Heart, and the two beings follow their own paths.

This helps to settle the last of my doubts concerning Lorkhan's objectives. He probably did trick the Aedra, and as punishment his Heart was taken from him. But the moment of sundering created the two beings we know, and Lorkhan was made better for it. That is his attempt at the Psijic Endeavor; by leaving behind Sheogorath and purifying himself in Mundus he elevates himself above the petty spirit he was, who used the Aedra for his own ends.

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Edited by TSBasilisk (05/19/04 08:53 AM)

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mafafu
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2597302 - 05/19/04 09:13 AM

Hmmm... Interesting. I guess considering that the 'Void' of Lorkhan is supposed to be his protean pole, then it's not impossible that it could become what we see as a Daedra.

Quote:

One crucial myth calls him [Sheogorath] the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world.




Is this a fair description of the unstars or void of Lorkhan?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: mafafu]
      #2597359 - 05/19/04 09:45 AM

The spirit left behind was half of the original Lorkhan, greater in power but lesser in essence. Lorkhan's power is too tied to Mundus for him to use, but Sheogorath still has his full powers and could be considered a Daedra. In fact, he may even have split himself from Lorkhan, not desiring to participate in the creation of Mundus.

And a "Sithis-shaped hole" is smack on for both Sheogorath and the Serpent constellation. Sithis is the Altmer concept of Padomay, a corrupting force of chaos. Something resembling Sithis would corrupt and try to destroy order, as the Snake does in the constellations and Sheogorath does on Mundus.

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Nigedo
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: mafafu]
      #2597496 - 05/19/04 11:14 AM

To weigh the possibility that the Serpent is both a portion of Lorkhan's sundered divinity and Sheogorath, it is important to understand the true significance of the Serpent and it's origins, I believe. The full quote from VOF is, of course:-

"Contemporary sources indicate that his roots are in Aldmeri creation stories; therein, he is 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed. One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world."


According to Yokudan tradition, the Serpent is the hunger that fell from the mouth of Sep when Tall Papa struck him in judgement for deceiving the gods and creating the Mundus.

Clearly this is a parallel reference to the judgement of Lorkhan, depicted in the Altmeri "Heart of the World", where his Heart (divine spark) was also removed.

Yokudan tradition holds that the Hunger was so prevalent in Sep since he was created from the waste skins of Satakal (Satak-Akel), the First Serpent, so he directly inherited the properties of Akel, the Hungry Stomach.

Satak-Akel is another representation of Anu-Padomay, so the hunger within Sep represents the portion of his being that is wholly Padomay, that is Change.

We understand from Vehk that all the et'Ada share elements of both Anu and Padomay. It is Anu that gifts each immortal with their divine spark; their own little piece of Stasis or solidified magic. It is the Padomaic portion of their natures that shapes and defines these sparks, giving them individual form and character.

The Yokudan creation myth helps us to understand just how dominant and powerful the urges of his Padomaic nature were within Lorkhan, as Vehk said, "...he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity." The flux mentioned here is the cycle of creation and destruction depicted in Satakal, the state of constant Change that Padomay is most content with.


So what further connections are there to Sheogorath, the "Sithis-shaped hole"?

Sithis is, of course, Padomay, a corruption from PSJJJJ, and the void left in the stars when Lorkhan was 'unmade' is certainly the isolated portion of his nature derived from Sithis.

The Yokudan myth says this:

"Sep had much of the Hungry Stomach still left in him, multiple hungers from multiple skins. He was so hungry he could not think straight."

and VOF supports this with, "Sep, though, is driven crazy by the hunger of Satakal...".

So, yes, I would agree that there is a clear connection between the nature of the Serpent and the sphere of Sheogorath.


However, when examining the wider significance of the Serpent, in cosmological terms, I believe it is important to remember that it is foremost a tangible remnant of Lorkhan's divinity. The polar opposite force within the Wheel to Lorkhan's Heart.

From the Firmament;

"Each of the Guardians protects its three Charges from the thirteenth constellation, the Serpent.

When the sun rises near one of the constellations, it is that constellation's season.

Each constellation has a Season of approximately one month. The Serpent has no season, for it moves about in the heavens, usually threatening one of the other constellations."


Where the Heart is a place of pure Stasis within Mundus, forming the immutable pivot of the Wheel, the Serpent is the unpredictable force of pure Change that drives the Wheel's constant motion, as it chases the stars and planets across the heavens.


Edited: So as not to sound quite so pompous.

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Edited by Nigedo (05/19/04 11:53 AM)

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Nigedo
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Re: Wondering the Creation of the Et'Ada [Re: Nigedo]
      #2597548 - 05/19/04 11:40 AM

As a follow up note, and just returning to the idea of Lorkhan wandering, the Yokudan creation myth also adds;

"While the rest of the new world was allowed to strive back to godhood, Sep could only slink around in a dead skin, or swim about in the sky, a hungry void that jealously tried to eat the stars."

In "strive back to godhood", the Redguard view is closely related to the Altmeri notion of ascendance, following Auriel's path (to the far shores), rather than the Psijiic Endeavor.

But interestingly, Lorkhan is depicted here as taking an alternative route and wandering in two forms; he can either "slink around in a dead skin" or "swim about in the sky".

I would only add that the idea of Lorkhan slinking around in "a dead skin", albeit coloured by the Redguards' hatred of Sep, aptly describes the process of Lorkhan remanifesting in 'dead' mortal forms as TS mentioned.

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