Concerning the Dreamsleeve (View original topic)



Láthspell

Posted 10 June 2009 - 12:31 AM

During my studies and browsings of the Elder Scrolls' plethora of lore and information, one subject has always eluded me: the Dreamsleeve. From what little I could turn up on it, I have uncovered that it is a rapid means of communication, possibly a Magickal telegraph, so to speak. I feel this only scratches the surface of what it really is (hence why I ask the devotees here). So I beseech you, what is the Dreamsleeve?

Tom Bombadil

Posted 10 June 2009 - 12:39 AM

It is essentially a recycling system for mortal souls. Dead soul goes in, comes out like new, headed for a new vessel. Or something similar, I don't know any details.

946000

Posted 10 June 2009 - 01:32 AM

The Nords call it Sovngarde apparently, which according to the linked text, can be entered by dying valiantly (obvious Valhalla reference). I recall proweler (I think) offering a translation that meant something similar to "dream sleeve" as well; I may be wrong though.

And all souls go there, mortal or Daedra.

Hellmouth

Posted 10 June 2009 - 06:20 PM

946000, on Jun 10 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

And all souls go there, mortal or Daedra.

I think they're just describing what it's like to swim the black waters of Oblivion. The Mazken and Auriels of Shivering Ilse also give a similar description of what it's like. I think one of the Oblivion books had some interview with a dremora, who also mention that they don't like death either, and would rather be out as soon as possible.

proweler

Posted 10 June 2009 - 07:12 PM

Láthspell, on Jun 10 2009, 06:31 AM, said:

During my studies and browsings of the Elder Scrolls' plethora of lore and information, one subject has always eluded me: the Dreamsleeve. From what little I could turn up on it, I have uncovered that it is a rapid means of communication, possibly a Magickal telegraph, so to speak. I feel this only scratches the surface of what it really is (hence why I ask the devotees here). So I beseech you, what is the Dreamsleeve?


Just gonna be lazy and dump in an old post. I should probably turn it into an article someday.

proweler, on Jun 20 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

Arkay is the God of the cycle of life and death. We're born from the dreamsleeve and return to it on death in an endless cycle that is always new.

Birth:

We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind. In this moment we destroy her forever and enter the demesne of Lord Dagon. - Mythic Dawn Commentaries

Mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth, without any divinity (unmantled) safe for the symbiosis with the special divinity of Nirn (our mother, Mankar wan't to destroy Nirn).

The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate. - Nu-Mantia Intercept

This special divinity comes back in the intercept, Red Mountain (tower) holds Lorkhan's Heart (stone). Lorkhan's heart is also called the divine spark, our shared divinity. As such, we already much like the Daedra, we're separate parts of a larger divinity.

Death:

When people from different cultures all believe in an afterlife and all seem to get exactly what they expect, it is reasonable to assume that their experiences are influenced by their expectations. The Nords believe they go to a place called Sovngarde which can be translated as to a meaning that means as much as the Dreamsleeve, the sleep-enclosure. So we're already back the start.

"The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death. Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AEâ€"either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk’s name for this transaction, mentioned above, is “lunar currencyâ€?." - Loveletter from the Fifth Era


This shouldn't be read as some Heaven and Hell afterlife were people who've done enough bad things end up in Oblivion. The AE literally is a connector and in the sermons it is often used as: "AYEM AE VEHK AE SETH", Almelexia and Vivec and Sotha Sil, Almsivi.

This connection is the soul. Normally, when a person is killed he experiences afterlife, when a Daedra is slain he experiences the void. A soul trap can force the soul to remain connected to a soulgem and a Necromancer can call back souls and force them to animate a body again.
Ghosts can return out of their free will if they have something that binds them, but often you'll see that they've already started to disintegrate and are starting to lose their memories and thoughts while they're being mangled and stripped from their identity in the dreamsleeve.

As I've already shown above, mortals are born from the dreamsleeve, it's their to their divinity so their allinged AE goes to Mundus and while the God planets of the Aedra are often interpreted as Aetherius, they are part of Mundus, they are the gift limbs.

It's also what allows Mankar Camoran to pick up his followers in his Paradise, they've given up Mundus ("destroy her forever") and become part of Mehrunes Dagon ("enter the demesne of Lord Dagon")


In addition what I didn't touch on here was the connection to aligned AE that the Loveletter mentions.

The Dreamsleeve is part of Mundus, but the lesser Daedra are bound to their Prince or to their own plane(t) orbiting the plane(t) of their Prince. This connection seems to be without the soft forgetfulness of the Dreamsleeve as each Daedra fears the experience (see: Spirit of the Daedra).

Now it's possible for someone to change this connection. In one of the dead-endings in Battlespire you could sell your soul to one of Mehrunes Captains, Umaril bartered his away with Meridia. Mankar suggests doing the same for Dagon.

Láthspell

Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:44 AM

These answers explain an incredible amount of things that I've read but not understood recently. Thank you all very much.

Evil_pigeon

Posted 17 August 2009 - 04:26 AM

*Resurrects thread*

Alright so the Dreamsleeve is the definitive collective afterlife where everyone goes and experiences their expected afterlife as a sort of dream. Would it therefore be possible for the Dreamsleeve to be hijacked? - souls going into the sleeve being forced into an unexpected afterlife at the whim of a God?

Crimson Paladin

Posted 17 August 2009 - 04:38 AM

The Sovngarde part doesn't add up; it was previously believed to be a real place somewhere on Nirn, its existence as an afterlife has only recently been accepted, as the result of the account of a ghost who, during his mortal life, believed it to be an actual place rather than an afterlife.

Lady Olivia

Posted 17 August 2009 - 06:55 AM

Proweler, don't you think the ideas of "experiencing afterlife" and "loosing identity in the dreamsleeve" are opposed? In everyday speech, when you say afterlife, you mean a place or state in which you can continue individual if disembodied existence after corporeal death. The dreamsleeve is, on the contrary, exactly about giving up memories and identity, and for all intents and purposes - ceasing to exist.

Or should we take the dreamsleeve rather in the sense of some intermediate step in the way of reincarnation? I don't think it was meant that way, but then I only have the most superficial understanding of the texts you quote.

Evil Eye

Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:01 AM

Lady Olivia, on Aug 17 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

Proweler, don't you think the ideas of "experiencing afterlife" and "loosing identity in the dreamsleeve" are opposed? In everyday speech, when you say afterlife, you mean a place or state in which you can continue individual if disembodied existence after corporeal death. The dreamsleeve is, on the contrary, exactly about giving up memories and identity, and for all intents and purposes - ceasing to exist.

Or should we take the dreamsleeve rather in the sense of some intermediate step in the way of reincarnation? I don't think it was meant that way, but then I only have the most superficial understanding of the texts you quote.

Sounds more like a "Dreamgut", your soul is digested and molded into something new.

Brian S

Posted 17 August 2009 - 02:15 PM

Lady Olivia, on Aug 17 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

Proweler, don't you think the ideas of "experiencing afterlife" and "loosing identity in the dreamsleeve" are opposed? In everyday speech, when you say afterlife, you mean a place or state in which you can continue individual if disembodied existence after corporeal death. The dreamsleeve is, on the contrary, exactly about giving up memories and identity, and for all intents and purposes - ceasing to exist.

Or should we take the dreamsleeve rather in the sense of some intermediate step in the way of reincarnation? I don't think it was meant that way, but then I only have the most superficial understanding of the texts you quote.

I see it like this; the soul is taken into the dreamsleeve, stripped of identity, but leaving soul-creatia, raw sentient-magical material to be molded into another mortal. What that identity does is open. As proweler said, the experience is what they expect. A sort of interdimensional hallucination I'd like to think.

Crimson Paladin

Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:13 PM

Brian S, on Aug 17 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

As proweler said, the experience is what they expect. A sort of interdimensional hallucination I'd like to think.

But is it what they expect, or what they desire?

Lady Olivia

Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:25 PM

To have an experience, you need a consciousness, and to be conscious, first you have to be. Once reabsorbed into the Dreamsleeve, the former mortal's identity is lost, it's no longer a he nor a she nor a Nord nor an Altmer, it has no expectations and it can't experience. That's why the idea that the experience of afterlife depends on what the dying mortal expected is contrary to what the Dreamsleeve is.

Certainly a mortal's expectations about afterlife are modeled by her myth-environment in life, we differ in that I don't think she'd find them fulfilled in death.

Brian S

Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:36 PM

Crimson Paladin, on Aug 17 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

But is it what they expect, or what they desire?

Same thing

syronj

Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:37 PM

Lady Olivia, on Aug 17 2009, 03:25 PM, said:

To have an experience, you need a consciousness, and to be conscious, first you have to be. Once reabsorbed into the Dreamsleeve, the former mortal's identity is lost, it's no longer a he nor a she nor a Nord nor an Altmer, it has no expectations and it can't experience. That's why the idea that the experience of afterlife depends on what the dying mortal expected is contrary to what the Dreamsleeve is.

Certainly a mortal's expectations about afterlife are modeled by her myth-environment in life, we differ in that I don't think she'd find them fulfilled in death.


Although the Dreamsleeve exists in the TES cosmology, I still find it depressing because the mortal's self -- all the memories and consciousness -- is destroyed in the process of recycling it. It's no better than just destroying the soul upon death.

946000

Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:54 PM

Then achieve apotheosis.

Crimson Paladin

Posted 17 August 2009 - 05:18 PM

syronj, on Aug 17 2009, 01:37 PM, said:

Although the Dreamsleeve exists in the TES cosmology, I still find it depressing because the mortal's self -- all the memories and consciousness -- is destroyed in the process of recycling it. It's no better than just destroying the soul upon death.

Even so, departed spirits prefer it over being trapped on Mundus against their will.

Edit: And there remains the question; were the failed incarnates actually Nerevar reborn, because if they were, why would they leave ghosts behind?

syronj

Posted 17 August 2009 - 05:56 PM

Crimson Paladin, on Aug 17 2009, 05:18 PM, said:

Even so, departed spirits prefer it over being trapped on Mundus against their will.

Edit: And there remains the question; were the failed incarnates actually Nerevar reborn, because if they were, why would they leave ghosts behind?


That seems like a good point. It could be there are two possibilities: the Failed Incarnates had at least some of Nerevar's soul, but not enough to constitute a full reincarnation; or they didn't have his soul and were only charismatic people.

Some were spiritual leaders, but didn't know enough of war to succeed; others were warriors but not spiritual enough, or not experienced enough with intrigue. The player character is the first one to put it all together -- both warrior and politician.

That was one of my favorite moments in "Morrowind", seeing the spirits of the Failed Incarnates standing proudly next to their mummified corpses, and passing the torch to you.

Adventurous Putty

Posted 17 August 2009 - 06:50 PM

MK once mentioned that Tedders originally made it up in Battlespire as a mage Internet/email network -- a concept that survives in the Loveletter from the Fifth Era.

Ludicrous

Posted 17 August 2009 - 07:07 PM

It seems that the only way to escape the Dreamsleeve's oblivion is to go Oblivion. (bad pun intended )

The only way to preserve one's self is to accepted into one of the Daedra's realms, preferably one of the nice ones like Azura's. Or to become a god.

And that brings the question: why do people worship the Aedra if they can't even offer a decent afterlife to their followers?

946000

Posted 17 August 2009 - 07:14 PM

Go search the concept of lunar currency. You can go to Aedra's realms too.

Plus, there's always apotheosis.

Ludicrous

Posted 17 August 2009 - 07:20 PM

This lunar currency is new to me, I will give it a look. Isn't apotheosis becoming a god? If not them it is research time for me.

946000

Posted 17 August 2009 - 07:26 PM

Yes, it's becoming a god. Different people did different things to achieve godhood. There are 6 recorded incidents of this happening. Talos and Vehk are examples of two of them.

Lady Olivia

Posted 18 August 2009 - 07:13 AM

Ludicrous, on Aug 18 2009, 01:07 AM, said:

And that brings the question: why do people worship the Aedra if they can't even offer a decent afterlife to their followers?

They worship their gods and believe in their respective afterlife myths because they don't know the truth, just like in real life. Not many mortals in TES would be aware of the nature, or even of the existence of the Dreamsleeve.

Brian S

Posted 18 August 2009 - 07:34 AM

Lady Olivia, on Aug 18 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

They worship their gods and believe in their respective afterlife myths because they don't know the truth,

truth and myth aren't mutually exclusive

proweler

Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:57 AM

syronj, on Aug 17 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

That seems like a good point. It could be there are two possibilities: the Failed Incarnates had at least some of Nerevar's soul, but not enough to constitute a full reincarnation; or they didn't have his soul and were only charismatic people.


Meh. You're ignoring the obvious. You were talking to yourself.

syronj

Posted 18 August 2009 - 11:32 AM

proweler, on Aug 18 2009, 08:57 AM, said:

Meh. You're ignoring the obvious. You were talking to yourself.


Whoa, interesting . . . .

Trust Proweler to give me more insight.

MK

Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:20 PM

Adventurous Putty, on Aug 17 2009, 05:50 PM, said:

MK once mentioned that Tedders originally made it up in Battlespire as a mage Internet/email network -- a concept that survives in the Loveletter from the Fifth Era.


No no no no no.

Ken made up the word. I then took it and went all Al Gore and turned it into the internet.

Though, really, if you read through the Intercept stuff, I really predicted Mind Twitter.

Cuz I'm a Jesus an' all.

Luagar2

Posted 19 August 2009 - 11:04 PM

MK, on Aug 19 2009, 09:20 PM, said:

No no no no no.

Ken made up the word. I then took it and went all Al Gore and turned it into the internet.

Though, really, if you read through the Intercept stuff, I really predicted Mind Twitter.

Cuz I'm a Jesus an' all.

I still can't figure out where people get all this "Cult of MK" nonsense from...

Crimson Paladin

Posted 19 August 2009 - 11:56 PM

Luagar2, on Aug 19 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

I still can't figure out where people get all this "Cult of MK" nonsense from...

I believe it is derived from how it can seem like many of the Lore Forum regulars (in particular the TIL regulars) treat MK's writings as infallible and absolute truth above everything else. I'm not saying they necessarily do, but it can seem like that.

Edit: I'm not necessarily saying that they're incorrect either, I'm just addressing the disagreements that exist due to TES's lack of clearly defined canon.

Edit: Just disregard this if you were kidding/being sarcastic.

Mortazo

Posted 20 August 2009 - 01:20 AM

Ludicrous, on Aug 17 2009, 07:20 PM, said:

This lunar currency is new to me, I will give it a look. Isn't apotheosis becoming a god? If not them it is research time for me.


In D&D that word refers to becoming a Lich, but I suppose that's not what tis normally sued for in TES.

syronj, on Aug 18 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

Whoa, interesting . . . .

Trust Proweler to give me more insight.


They died, and thus failed, and thus couldn't be Nerevar. Only the one that fulfills the prophecy is Nerevar. With so many guys failing, one's bound to succeed and then one has to wonder if the whole thing isn't just a lie.

Luagar2

Posted 20 August 2009 - 02:17 AM

Crimson Paladin, on Aug 19 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

Edit: Just disregard this if you were kidding/being sarcastic.

There you go...

Mortazo, on Aug 20 2009, 12:20 AM, said:

They died, and thus failed, and thus couldn't be Nerevar. Only the one that fulfills the prophecy is Nerevar. With so many guys failing, one's bound to succeed and then one has to wonder if the whole thing isn't just a lie.

They weren't 'false', just 'failed' - they were incarnates nonetheless. As for it being a lie, of course Azura alone isn't to be trusted, but when everybody and their grandma agree despite conflicting interests (including Vivec, Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, etc along with Azura) then its a little harder to doubt. Also, manteling is tricky business, and becoming the Nerevarine is just as much about manteling as it is prophecy, its only natural that there'd be some that wouldn't get it just right...

Mortazo

Posted 20 August 2009 - 02:22 AM

Luagar2, on Aug 20 2009, 02:17 AM, said:

They weren't 'false', just 'failed' - they were incarnates nonetheless. As for it being a lie, of course Azura alone isn't to be trusted, but when everybody and their grandma agree despite conflicting interests (including Vivec, Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, etc along with Azura) then its a little harder to doubt. Also, manteling is tricky business, and becoming the Nerevarine is just as much about manteling as it is prophecy, its only natural that there'd be some that wouldn't get it just right...


Right. If the fail, then they haven't completed the prophecy, thus cannot enter the role of Nerevarine and mantle Nerevar and thus are false.

Crimson Paladin

Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:19 AM

So...was the eventual Nerevarine in fact Nerevar back from the Dreamsleeve? And were the others simply marked by the prophecy but predestined to fail? I'm confused...

Luagar2

Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:29 AM

Nu-Hatta says that you are, of course its really up to you to decide (ie, the choice you're given when you confront Dagoth Ur and he asks you "Are you really Nerevar Reborn?"). The others weren't necessarily predestined to fail, they just happened to have. You might think of them like previous characters of yours that died during the Main Quest...

Mortazo, on Aug 20 2009, 01:22 AM, said:

Right. If the fail, then they haven't completed the prophecy, thus cannot enter the role of Nerevarine and mantle Nerevar and thus are false.

No, failing to mantle Nerevar doesn't make them any less of an incarnate - that's what the 'failed'/'false' refers to. They were incarnates entering the role of the Nerevarine that didn't succeed, whereas 'false' would imply that they simply weren't an incarnate (and actually sorta implies that they fulfilled the role along with not being an incarnate, which they didn't).

syronj

Posted 20 August 2009 - 11:29 AM

Luagar2, on Aug 19 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

I still can't figure out where people get all this "Cult of MK" nonsense from...


Good to see MK post again, though.

I think proweler and luagar2 are right -- the failed incarnates were incarnations of Nerevar just as much as the player character is; for whatever reason, they couldn't put all the skills together to become Hortator until the current model. As someone posted, it's like when you're trying out different characters when playing MW or OB.

jackfrost

Posted 20 August 2009 - 11:54 AM

nevermind

Brian S

Posted 20 August 2009 - 12:48 PM

MK, on Aug 19 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

Cuz I'm a Jesus an' all.

I never had any doubt, baby

Adventurous Putty

Posted 20 August 2009 - 03:46 PM

MK, on Aug 19 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

No no no no no.

Ken made up the word. I then took it and went all Al Gore and turned it into the internet.

Though, really, if you read through the Intercept stuff, I really predicted Mind Twitter.

Cuz I'm a Jesus an' all.


Well so-rry that I don't memorize all your quotes to perfection, Master. At least I remembered the gist of it.

Oh God please forgive me I'll do anything to make it up to you.

Oh and Mind Twitter as a method of governance should be adopted by real-life nations worldwide. Just sayin'.

syronj

Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:40 PM

Adventurous Putty, on Aug 20 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Well so-rry that I don't memorize all your quotes to perfection, Master. At least I remembered the gist of it.

Oh and Mind Twitter as a method of governance should be adopted by real-life nations worldwide. Just sayin'.


AP, it's MK's world; we just get to play in it.

(No disrespect intended to anyone.)

Mehrunes Dagon

Posted 20 August 2009 - 06:34 PM

Mortazo, on Aug 20 2009, 02:22 AM, said:

Right. If the fail, then they haven't completed the prophecy, thus cannot enter the role of Nerevarine and mantle Nerevar and thus are false.


Not that this thread needs MORE picking apart of minutiae, but can the word mantle be used here? Certainly, Nerevar had certain qualities to him that the Nerevarine also did, namely that he unified the Mer of Morrowind, before becoming Nerevarine, but the prophecies or histories didn't say that Nerevar was immune to age or disease, cursed by House Dagoth, etc, etc. If anything, the hero mantled the Nerevarine, but was the first to do it and so he was more setting precedent than mantling a personality. Hence why I favor using the terms reincarnation and fulfilling prophecy.

syronj

Posted 20 August 2009 - 06:49 PM

Mehrunes Dagon, on Aug 20 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

Not that this thread needs MORE picking apart of minutiae, but can the word mantle be used here? Certainly, Nerevar had certain qualities to him that the Nerevarine also did, namely that he unified the Mer of Morrowind, before becoming Nerevarine, but the prophecies or histories didn't say that Nerevar was immune to age or disease, cursed by House Dagoth, etc, etc. If anything, the hero mantled the Nerevarine, but was the first to do it and so he was more setting precedent than mantling a personality. Hence why I favor using the terms reincarnation and fulfilling prophecy.


I agree; mantling doesn't enter into the case of the Nerevarine at all; only reincarnation. You mantle gods, not heroes.

Lady Nerevar

Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:08 PM

Luagar2, on Aug 19 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

I still can't figure out where people get all this "Cult of MK" nonsense from...

its from a signature, Lyconthropic Nerevar's, if i recall correctly. its spelled Kult of Kirkbride, btw.

tam! RUGH!

(...was that uncalled for ? yea, it probably was )

Adventurous Putty

Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:13 PM

Quote

tam RUGH!

(...was that uncalled for ? yea, it probably was poke2.gif)


WE ARE VERY DISAPPOINTED AT YOUR PERFORMANCE LADY N WE WILL DISCUSS YOUR PUNISHMENT AT THE NEXT MEETING OF THE SHADOWY FORUM CLIQUETM AND CORRECTIONAL MEASURES WILL BE TAKEN

Luagar2

Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:38 PM

Mehrunes Dagon, on Aug 20 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

Not that this thread needs MORE picking apart of minutiae, but can the word mantle be used here? Certainly, Nerevar had certain qualities to him that the Nerevarine also did, namely that he unified the Mer of Morrowind, before becoming Nerevarine, but the prophecies or histories didn't say that Nerevar was immune to age or disease, cursed by House Dagoth, etc, etc. If anything, the hero mantled the Nerevarine, but was the first to do it and so he was more setting precedent than mantling a personality. Hence why I favor using the terms reincarnation and fulfilling prophecy.

syronj, on Aug 20 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

I agree; mantling doesn't enter into the case of the Nerevarine at all; only reincarnation. You mantle gods, not heroes.

That its only reincarnation lines up with Nu-Hatta's statements, however we know there is more to it than just that due to the Wise-Woman's statement that "you are not the Nerevarine, but you are one who may become the Nerevarine" - suggesting that the you have to fulfill prophecy and follow in Nerevar's footsteps.

Unless of course you argue that its only at a certain point that the character is endowed with the spirit of Nerevar...

Lady Nerevar, on Aug 20 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

its from a signature, Lyconthropic Nerevar's, if i recall correctly. its spelled Kult of Kirkbride, btw.

Yes, I know, it was a sarcastic statement directed towards his statement that he's Jesus...

Temple Zero Society

Posted 21 August 2009 - 11:25 PM

Sorely abused by grasping fools who barely understand its function or purpose. As our intercepts show, the stiff-necked academicians of the Imperial College have learned to use it at last - and yet so many of them still doubt that which it necessitates and proves! That we may all be so blissfully ignorant of the obvious truth.

Tam! RUGH!