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The Elder Scrolls Forums _ Elder Scrolls Lore _ Amulet of Kings

Posted by: GigaMagusZ May 6 2006, 03:39 AM

Hi, I'm by no means a lore buff, but I've been reading a couple of things, and I'm kind of confused. Oblivion makes it seem as if so long as an emperor of the Septim line is wearing the Amulet of Kings, the Daedra will be kept out of Nirn. That's fine, but I want to know why the daedra couldn't invade before the third era?

Another relevant question would be about the exact nature of the Amulet of Kings. The lore seems to suggest that it was given to Saint Alessia by Akatosh, but the Nu-Mantia intercept suggests it was forged by the Ayleids? I'm really confused here. Thanks for your help.

Posted by: Khajiit Overlord Rainer May 6 2006, 03:43 AM

What kept the Daedra away the first two eras is the Pact with the Tribunal: As long as there is an Emporer, Daedra can only be summoned by Witches and Daedra Worshippers. No Empoer=the Daedra can do what ever they please.

Posted by: proweler May 6 2006, 04:03 AM

The claim that the Emperor has to be a Septim is false, although the notion can be blamed on their constant rule in the last Era and proganda used to inform the population about this particulair part of History.

The "Trails of Saint Allesia" and "The Amulet of Kings" both mention that an heir of Allesia has to wear the Amulet. But seeing how Reman and Tiber and half a dozen pretender kings have no significant relation to Allesia it can be assumed that anybody bound to the Amulet can activate the barrier.

That doesn't explain the better half of the Second Era when nobody had the Amulet. Nu-Mantia intercept offers an explanation by giving Nirn several Towers that reinforce the "natural" barrier. Only when enhough of those have been take down the barrier becomes penetrateable.

Seeing how Imperials typically adress events of major importance -such as the Warp of the West, Miracle of Peace- to actions the Divines, it is qeustionable if Akatosh -or Shezarr for that matter- made the Amulet of Kings.
It could have been an Ayleid artifact right from the beginning that was discoverd and utilized during the rebelion.

Why the Allesians say Shezarr and the Imperial Doctrine says Akatosh is a whole different argument and might best be left untouched for a moment.

QUOTE(Khajiit Overlord Rainer @ May 6 2006, 02:43 AM)

What kept the Daedra away the first two eras is the Pact with the Tribunal: As long as there is an Emporer, Daedra can only be summoned by Witches and Daedra Worshippers. No Empoer=the Daedra can do what ever they please.


The actuall pact did not involve the Emperor, atleast no such details have been disclosed. But that wouldn't explain why the Daedra didn't break out right after the Potentate took up his rule or for the remainder of the Second Era when the Amulet of Kings lay in Remans Tomb with no real Emperor or Empire on the throne.

Posted by: GigaMagusZ May 6 2006, 04:45 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 5 2006, 09:03 PM)

The claim that the Emperor has to be a Septim is false, although the notion can be blamed on their constant rule in the last Era and proganda used to inform the population about this particulair part of History.

The "Trails of Saint Allesia" and "The Amulet of Kings" both mention that an heir of Allesia has to wear the Amulet. But seeing how Reman and Tiber and half a dozen pretender kings have no significant relation to Allesia it can be assumed that anybody bound to the Amulet can activate the barrier.

That doesn't explain the better half of the Second Era when nobody had the Amulet. Nu-Mantia intercept offers an explanation by giving Nirn several Towers that reinforce the "natural" barrier. Only when enhough of those have been take down the barrier becomes penetrateable.

Seeing how Imperials typically adress events of major importance -such as the Warp of the West, Miracle of Peace- to actions the Divines, it is qeustionable if Akatosh -or Shezarr for that matter- made the Amulet of Kings.
It could have been an Ayleid artifact right from the beginning that was discoverd and utilized during the rebelion.

Why the Allesians say Shezarr and the Imperial Doctrine says Akatosh is a whole different argument and might best be left untouched for a moment.

A very imformative post, thank you. My thinking was along those lines as well. But if the Amulet of Kings isn't truly related to any single bloodline, then why are you unable to wear the Amulet of Kings when you have it in Oblivion? I'll try to answer my own question here, and say that the player character in the game is either not ready or not willing to accept being bound to the amulet, but I'm not sure if there's a better explanation for this.

This would also relate to something else. Later in the game, when Martin wears it, it seems to affirm that he is Uriel's son. Maybe it has nothing to do with that, and he is simply able to wear it because he IS willing to become bound to the Amulet?

As for the Nu-Mantia Intercept, just to make sure I'm getting this correctly, the Amulet of Kings is one of multiple barriers formed to prevent the Daedra from invading Nirn. Is the Heart of Lorkhan another? And, as such, did the actions the Nerevarine took at the end of Morrowind aid in this weakening of the barrier, helping Mehrunes Dagon's invasion?

Posted by: TSBasilisk May 6 2006, 05:13 AM

Sotha's pact was not made until the last year of the First Era, and as such offered no protection for nearly three millenia. In addition, it only said that the Princes would answer the summonings of mortals who would show enough restraint to not simply turn them loose because a song made them sad(the pact was made to avoid some rather bad happenings after some ruler got ****ed over a sad song and called up Molag Bal to eliminate the town it came from).

The pact had nothing to do with the Gates, merely summoning. And it only lasted until the end of the war, which ended the same year, I believe. As such, it had nothing to do with the invasion. But the Tribunal did.

Essentially, everything we've seen in recent years has added to this invasion. The barrier between Oblivion and Mundus have been torn at by the actions of each hero save Cyrus:

Battlespire: The unnamed hero ended up needing to destroy the Battlespire, a major source of Imperial power
Arena: The Staff of Chaos, a very powerful tool, was destroyed or banished; in addition, the Septim line was shattered
Daggerfall: The Numidium shattered and warped time, tearing at the fabric of Mundus
Morrowind: The Heart of Lorkhan was freed from its enchantments and vanished until it can recover from the shock
Tribunal: The Tribunal has fallen, releasing what remained of their powers into the void; the Mazed Band, known to open Gates, was reborn
Bloodmoon: The appearance of Hircine and his prophecy comes close in hand with the invasion

The Amulet seems to require some divine aspect to the wearer, I believe. This seems to last in the blood of all relatives of Alessia and Tiber Septim, one touched by the gods and one who became a god. Martin's blood carried the divine spark of Talos, and thus Lorkhan, which likely was what allowed him to channel the power of Akatosh, the most powerful of the Aedra.

The early letters of the Intercept say quite clearly that the Red Tower(Red Mountain) has fallen and is, in fact, a result of the Dagonites planning their invasion.

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 6 2006, 05:16 AM

So the Tribunal really were good, despite their treachery...

Posted by: proweler May 6 2006, 05:16 AM

QUOTE(GigaMagusZ @ May 6 2006, 03:45 AM)

As for the Nu-Mantia Intercept, just to make sure I'm getting this correctly, the Amulet of Kings is one of multiple barriers formed to prevent the Daedra from invading Nirn. Is the Heart of Lorkhan another? And, as such, did the actions the Nerevarine took at the end of Morrowind aid in this weakening of the barrier, helping Mehrunes Dagon's invasion?


Yes. The Nerevarine made the Mythic Dawn possible, but if this was intentional is debateable. He was subjected to various influences and it is imposible to say on who's behalve he acted. Still all wanted the heart destroyed so it does not really matter. That it would happend was however predicted. In hindsight it wasn't even verry hard to predict either.

I dunno why you can't put on the Amulet, I would assume an overzealous enchanter.

QUOTE(TSBasilisk @ May 6 2006, 04:13 AM)

The Amulet seems to require some divine aspect to the wearer, I believe. This seems to last in the blood of all relatives of Alessia and Tiber Septim, one touched by the gods and one who became a god. Martin's blood carried the divine spark of Talos, and thus Lorkhan, which likely was what allowed him to channel the power of Akatosh, the most powerful of the Aedra.


Although that sounds verry good aswell.

Posted by: m72 May 6 2006, 03:41 PM

QUOTE(TSBasilisk @ May 5 2006, 10:13 PM)

Sotha's pact was not made until the last year of the First Era, and as such offered no protection for nearly three millenia. In addition, it only said that the Princes would answer the summonings of mortals who would show enough restraint to not simply turn them loose because a song made them sad(the pact was made to avoid some rather bad happenings after some ruler got ****ed over a sad song and called up Molag Bal to eliminate the town it came from).

The pact had nothing to do with the Gates, merely summoning. And it only lasted until the end of the war, which ended the same year, I believe. As such, it had nothing to do with the invasion. But the Tribunal did.

Essentially, everything we've seen in recent years has added to this invasion. The barrier between Oblivion and Mundus have been torn at by the actions of each hero save Cyrus:

Battlespire: The unnamed hero ended up needing to destroy the Battlespire, a major source of Imperial power
Arena: The Staff of Chaos, a very powerful tool, was destroyed or banished; in addition, the Septim line was shattered
Daggerfall: The Numidium shattered and warped time, tearing at the fabric of Mundus
Morrowind: The Heart of Lorkhan was freed from its enchantments and vanished until it can recover from the shock
Tribunal: The Tribunal has fallen, releasing what remained of their powers into the void; the Mazed Band, known to open Gates, was reborn
Bloodmoon: The appearance of Hircine and his prophecy comes close in hand with the invasion

The Amulet seems to require some divine aspect to the wearer, I believe. This seems to last in the blood of all relatives of Alessia and Tiber Septim, one touched by the gods and one who became a god. Martin's blood carried the divine spark of Talos, and thus Lorkhan, which likely was what allowed him to channel the power of Akatosh, the most powerful of the Aedra.

The early letters of the Intercept say quite clearly that the Red Tower(Red Mountain) has fallen and is, in fact, a result of the Dagonites planning their invasion.


This chain of events, makes me think that Bethesda has been planning the Storyline for Oblivion since Arena. Conspiracy anyone?

Posted by: featherbrain May 6 2006, 03:41 PM

QUOTE(m72 @ May 6 2006, 01:41 PM)

This chain of events, makes me think that Bethesda has been planning the Storyline for Oblivion since Arena. Conspiracy anyone?

"Planning"? If only ...

Posted by: Kikaimegami May 6 2006, 03:45 PM

Sometimes things just fall into place even if you weren't originally intending for them to. It could be quite by accident. I've noticed this in my own writing, I'm sure professional writers have it happen, too.

Posted by: Gez May 6 2006, 04:59 PM

QUOTE(m72 @ May 6 2006, 02:41 PM)
This chain of events, makes me think that Bethesda has been planning the Storyline for Oblivion since Arena. Conspiracy anyone?


Obviously you've never been a pen-and-paper game master.

Improvising things at the last minute to turn gaping plot holes into something that looks well-planned and prepared from the start is the art of the GM.

Posted by: Fishy May 6 2006, 06:51 PM

QUOTE

The Amulet seems to require some divine aspect to the wearer, I believe. This seems to last in the blood of all relatives of Alessia and Tiber Septim, one touched by the gods and one who became a god. Martin's blood carried the divine spark of Talos, and thus Lorkhan, which likely was what allowed him to channel the power of Akatosh, the most powerful of the Aedra.


This sounds reasonable, but what god sired Emperor Reman and his predecessors? What god created Mankar? Or is his relation to Mehrunes enough to make him wear an amulet that is according to this theory bound by Aedric power.

Personally I like the theory GigaMagus said.

QUOTE

This would also relate to something else. Later in the game, when Martin wears it, it seems to affirm that he is Uriel's son. Maybe it has nothing to do with that, and he is simply able to wear it because he IS willing to become bound to the Amulet?


Maybe its not a matter of royal blood or power at all, as those can be forged out of contracts and treason and even a weak peasent can become king. Maybe its just a matter of believing you are royal, believing you can wear it. And perhaps thats how the amulet detects if your worthy or not.

Posted by: Sinder Velvin May 6 2006, 07:21 PM

QUOTE(m72 @ May 6 2006, 03:41 PM)

This chain of events, makes me think that Bethesda has been planning the Storyline for Oblivion since Arena.


I'm afraid there aren't even any Developers left from that period.

Posted by: B May 6 2006, 08:54 PM

I have one major problem with all of this talk. How in the world is a regular game player supposed to know any of this stuff? Are you telling me that Bethesda expects every person who played Oblivion to login to the Lore forums or go to The Imperial Library to read some obscure post by MK to explain the 'real' story behind Oblivion? Someone please correct me on this next comment, but I'd say no.

Everything a player needs to understand the storyline should be in the game itself. And, while we enjoy the discussion of Lore topics, a majority of the gamers probably couldn’t care less.

I wonder if Bethesda created their own story for this game that wasn’t based on past Lore, and MK came along and tried to piece everything together and fix the contradictions for us so it fit with the past lore.

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 6 2006, 09:12 PM

Bethesda: So I was thinking....what do kids like these days?!

MK: Riddles and intriguing stroylines filled with a rich backstory and with many different interpetations?

Bethesda: haha oh-MK you're always good for a laugh. But really I was thinking to myself what do kids like...and well, its hell! They like Hell! So, lets have hell invade Tamr..whatever its called, the world.. ya know. Lets have the minions of hell invade and our hero has to stop them! er what do we call hell again?

MK: ...Oblivion?

Bethesda: Perfect! That is gonna sell like hot-cakes! Alright I already have my people working on the game, you just toss some last minute lore on it to keep those 15 people in the Lore forum happy, and to make it look like we don't sell out and it'll be great!!

-----Months later---

MK: uh..whats with this Akatosh thing...i was thinking maybe we could do some things to change how its intep...

Bethesda: What?! Hold on! We're busy have you seen these graphics?! Man we're gonna make a killing...

MK: yeah but this really doesn't..

Bethesda: I am busy MK, just throw something together I am sure they'll eat it up, its what you're good at!

--weeks later--

MK: Hey I saw you guys removed my dialoge I requested from these NPC's, as well as the Moth Monk quests....

Bethesda: Oh yeah, sorry about that MK, as you know, talk = cash, and talk aint cheap either. I am sure no one will notice that stuff was taken out, I mean it really was boring..who cares about deep philisocial ideas..when HELL IS INVADING!

---few months later---

MK: I was looking through the quests and this Pale Pass one..

Bethesda: Is brilliant isn't it?! Its got..finding stuff..and lore..and whatever to keep all those brainiacs happy! Anyways have you seen how the NPC's will interact with each other?? This is gonna be great...


--Just before release Date---

MK: I just FOUND A HUGE BUG, Camaron WEAR's the amulate of kings!!

Bethesda: What..who?

MK: The ancient rebel king..he serves Mehrunes Dagon...

Bethesa: You've lost me..

MK : ..You go to his paradise that looks REALLY nice..

Bethesda : OHhhh yeah! Those were good graphics weren't they? What about them?? is there some sort of problem with the graphics..we need to fix this if there is...

MK : nono, they are fine...but he is WEARING the Amulate...that can't happen, it'll make things so confusing..it doesn't work

Bethesda : What? Really MK, we can't go back and fix every tiny thing that is "Wrong", I am sure its fine.

-------Release Date--

MK : Uh..why did you guys remove those books I wrote??

Bethesda : Oh haven't you heard? We are putting them in a Content download, that way we make more money after the fact..

MK : Those books..they are nessicary to understand...

Bethesda : Would you stop complaining for once? We're rich!

Posted by: featherbrain May 6 2006, 10:08 PM

LOLZ!


Bethesda: So, hey, MK, what cool lore stuff do you have for us today?

MK: Nothing but woe for NRN which has become The Pit and seven curses on its Dreugh, the Vermae NI-MOHK! But for it the Crusades would be as my lord's Creation, Get by the Ge and do as thou wilt, of no fetters but your own conscience! Know that your Hell is Broken, people of the Aurbis, and praise the Nu-Mantia which is Liberty!

Bethesda: ....

(whispers)

Bethesda: Er, can we have a map marker for that?

----

"Know that your Hell is Broken" indeed ...

Posted by: proweler May 6 2006, 11:34 PM

B. I dunno, it's not something I'd ever consider possible. It is however strange that allot of effort went into explaining the story while none -apart from Nu-Mantia Intercept- has been spend on the apperently glaring conflicts.

Ysmir. I dunno if I should laugh or cry.

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 6 2006, 11:39 PM

~*Bows*~

The Underking has spoken! All Hail The Underking!

(i woulda said more..but we can't afford it...but you can hit 'Rumors' again..it's like the lottery!)

Posted by: adamant_2001 May 6 2006, 11:44 PM

Though keep in mind that this also happened:

EP: So, the God of Worms is going to be central to the Mage's Guild plotline? Awesome. Anyway I'm going to add in a nice little assassination quest with a Necromancer who is becoming a Lich after receiving a word of knowledge from Mannimarco. I've been so waiting to do this since playing Daggerfall.

Bethesda: Yeah, Mannimarco is such a supar necromancer bizzatch!

EP: Definately. May the Worm God protect you. It's going to be so fun to see how that turns out... Anyway back to coding stealth for now.

---Months Later---

EP: Ermm... the God of Worms is some Altmer punk that I killed in a minute? Isn't he you know... the God of Worms. N'gasta! Quack! Quack! and all that? Not some... Elf who would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids? Sure a few thousand years ago that would have worked, but he's now the GOD of Worms... You know that whole Warp of the West or Divine Gift of... what's it being called now?

Bethesda: See? Bizzatch Necromancah! Awesomes! ...and it's true to lore! Lore is always the basis of our games! Bizzatch!

EP: But... he's a god?! A god of Worms! You know... big evil Necromancer god! Big plot next game with Morgiah? You know... that Dunmer that we have the pin-up of her concept art on the refigerator in the rec room?

MK: Ermm... crap this Numinition has been... ermm... mended by the... jills of Akatosh. Bizzatch?

Bethesda: Bizzatch!

TP: What the hell? Your Akaviri have legs? ...and this is after all of the crap Michael put me through to make sure that they were vampire-snake-men?

Bethesda: Bizzatch!

EP, MK, TP: ...

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 6 2006, 11:49 PM

Lol haha nice addition..

poser.

Posted by: adamant_2001 May 6 2006, 11:50 PM

QUOTE(Ysmir The Underking @ May 6 2006, 05:49 PM)

Lol haha nice addition..

poser.


My patron, the God of Worms, asked for this addition.

Posted by: featherbrain May 7 2006, 12:28 AM

QUOTE(Ysmir The Underking @ May 6 2006, 09:39 PM)

(i woulda said more..but we can't afford it...but you can hit 'Rumors' again..it's like the lottery!)

*clicks on 'Rumors'*

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 7 2006, 12:48 AM

Forgon Flactius jumped over a chair

Posted by: B May 7 2006, 01:20 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 6 2006, 05:34 PM)

B. I dunno, it's not something I'd ever consider possible. It is however strange that allot of effort went into explaining the story while none -apart from Nu-Mantia Intercept- has been spend on the apperently glaring conflicts.

Are you kidding me? Have you looked at the game in and of itself. There are so many things (lore wise) that have either changed, were left out, or done wrong. Take a look at what's in the game, and only in the game, and start to list what a new player would learn or believe about ES lore. Maybe that will help. For example, just from the game, people would believe Akatosh gave Alessia the Amulet, thus creating a covenant. Then Akatosh mixed his blood with hers to create a bloodline that could only wear the Amulet. Next the player would assume that all the Emperors and Empresses were related to Alessia because there hasn’t been any Oblivion gates appearing on Nirn since the time of the Covenant. Finally, one could infer that Tiber Septim, Uriel Septim, and Martin are called "Dragonborn" because they have Akatosh's blood in them. What information in the game's main storyline refutes those beliefs? Are you telling me MK held the only clue? Well, good thing he posted that for us or else we never would have known all of that. It certainly isn't in the game. I could go on because Oblivion is filled with these kind of things, but I won't waste more time listing all the different conflicts. I think you get the idea. You can do that yourselves. Start another thread if you want.

Now, hopefully, people would read the ingame books and begin to question some of the things that are in the game's storyline. Maybe they would see that there was a Potentate in the Second Era that couldn't have been related to Alessia. Hopefully, those same gamers would come to the forums and the Imperial Library to learn about ES history and participate in our debates. I think it's great that we have expanded the ES world beyond the games, but if they don't leave the game, they are left with a different impression than the one most of us have.

So many people use unofficial words as proof of their convictions (I know I’m guilty of that). I guess The Imperial Library helps spread that practice by making those words so accessible. When newbies come to this forum, we wonder where they are getting all these crazy ideas. Don’t they see that they are so misinformed? But then it dawned on me: How would they know any better? And more importantly, who’s to say that we are right? We’re using words that have never been endorsed by the current staff at Bethesda. Sometimes I feel as though we have been forgotten here. Why can’t a Dev come here to set things straight? Ted (God love him) is the only one that shows up here consistently, and he admitted that his words, in some areas, aren’t canon anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing the game itself. I find it to be so much more enjoyable than Morrowind was. It is a phenomenal game in so many respects. I just have to ignore some of the Lore conflicts.

Posted by: Eliah May 7 2006, 10:51 AM

...I want to play Arena and Battlespire...

Otherwise, all of my lore comes from Morrowind and... well, not Ob, that's for sure. I can see it now: "During the time of the Invasion of Tamriel from Oblivion by the Daedra, Some Really Good Guy, hense forth known has the Hero of the Emperor, let Uriel Septim die, lost the Amulet of Kings, and became Arch Mage because the former one killed himself. But look on the bright side: he couldn't perform even basic magic or use combat skills which were previously available to anybody in the world, but suddenly and unexplainedly disappeared. It must have been the gods! Not only that, but everybody found out that the King of Worms was actually just a wimp, and the majority of his followers were actually much more powerful than he was. All in all it was a good year, since every bandit and vampire in all of Cyrodiil managed to aquire amazing equipment - which the hero then sold - and boosted the market up to where even the beggers were running around in the finest silks. Shortly after the crisis was over, everyone realized nobody planted any food, since they had sold their farms to be turned into apartment complexes, shops, and motels that year. Anarchy ensued and gems became worthless, as were magic items, as well as rare and powerful armor and weapons. Food became worth 1337000 gold per loaf of bread and many starved to death, if they weren't killed and eaten by their fellow citizens before that. Because of all the dead and undead a plague swept across Cryrodiil. But wait! The King of Worms came back, and turned everyone into zombies, and all the other nations had to hide behind walls. This started the era only known as: XBox Zombie Brawl RPG, now with more noob in every box!"

Posted by: proweler May 7 2006, 11:29 AM

B, you misunderstood me. I’m not blind to the changes but I refuse to acknowledge what they suggest.

Between Daggerfall, Battlespire, Redgaurd and Morrowind the official and un-official comments on the world all appeared to be different views on the same object, some more clearly then other but they were all talking about the same thing.

Now we have the whole Oblivion storyline that just doesn’t make sense with the rest of known history and suddenly people all agree with each other, there is no argument no strife. All controversy is removed from history, Big Brother would be proud.
The Imperials call upon the divines faster then most scholars blame Azura for the disappearance of the Dwemer and while the gods are real but that doesn’t mean they can be blamed for every damn Dragon fart!
It isn’t even a obscured issue like the Dragon Break or the Enantiomorph that brings it all down, it is basic history that makes the story shaky.

I refuse to acknowledge that the living and breathing world of Tamriel has been turned into a death, bland and boring medieval fantasy setting. Maybe we should have been warned when the words “Fantasy is riding on a horse killing things” were uttered because it clearly doesn’t include reading or a solid background story.
It certainly shows, when you take the boiler plate of a fancy-clean-understandable-excuse-for-a-story there is nothing underneath. Thankfully, Nu-Mantia Intercept fills the hole.

It’s why Ysmirs parody is rather striking.

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 7 2006, 11:58 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 7 2006, 04:29 AM)


It’s why Ysmirs parody is rather striking.


So, can I be one of you guys now??
..I have followers...

Posted by: featherbrain May 7 2006, 01:25 PM

Suddenly the joke isn't quite so funny any more. Seeing B angry and proweler so disappointed is ... sad. But there's a lot to be angry and sad about here.

The saddest thing of all is the complete and utter SILENCE from the devs in this forum. Tedders is obviously a champion, but will always be the exception, I suspect. I hope they realise how important your thoughts, opinions, speculations and lore-delvings have been for so many people like me in keeping the game world alive with possibility. This has been a real struggle with Oblivion, obviously. I just wish they were courageous or generous enough to come here and discuss their decisions properly with the guys who care about it the most.



Edit: maybe we should start a 'Lore Bugs' reporting thread ...


Posted by: adamant_2001 May 7 2006, 01:49 PM

The main thing that gets me though are the inconsistentcies. Tons of effort goes into a New Pocket Guide and books detailing other provinces, but the main quest itself has oddities that anyone in Tamriel with a basic grasp of history would see. (I did feel better when one of the characters at Weynon Priory mentioned "The Emperor and heirs dead, this has happened before..." as opposed to the comments of most NPCs...)

It makes sense that the whole "Dragonborn" bit would be created by the Septims to legitimize their rule and create a mythos spanning all three Empires. But there should be a few conflicting statements, perhaps some suppressed books. i.e. "The convenant with the gods was broken by the Akaviri, and shattered even more by Tiber Septim's use of the profane Numidium. The blood tides were born due to his hubris... etc. etc."

That sort of stuff.

Of course the inconsistency is seen most in my personal pet peeve, the whole Mannimarco issue. Some designers clearly were running with the "God of Worms" concept, yet the one behind the Mages Guild line seemed to be aiming for "Mannimarco coming down for the final fight." Which sadly ruins the potential of this villain. (then again, why a villain? He could have made an interesting ally in the main quest...)

Most of the little inconsistencies I can live with because in most respects Oblivion is about what I thought it would be like when the first hints of it were announced when Morrowind was first being worked on. Morrowind and the original Pocket Guide did take the setting into a new direction that would have been interesting if it was fully followed-through on however.

My main disappointment on the Mages Guild plot is the fact that there is now a chance that we'll never see the plot between the God of Worms and Morgiah being resolved in TESV. (assuming all of the red arrows pointing to Summerset and Artaeum are true)

If her "first" is not her first born child, I definately need to know what it is

Posted by: Polycarp May 7 2006, 02:44 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 7 2006, 11:29 AM)

Now we have the whole Oblivion storyline that just doesn’t make sense with the rest of known history and suddenly people all agree with each other, there is no argument no strife. All controversy is removed from history, Big Brother would be proud.
The Imperials call upon the divines faster then most scholars blame Azura for the disappearance of the Dwemer and while the gods are real but that doesn’t mean they can be blamed for every damn Dragon fart... It certainly shows, when you take the boiler plate of a fancy-clean-understandable-excuse-for-a-story there is nothing underneath. Thankfully, Nu-Mantia Intercept fills the hole.

You know, it's a rare occurance but I couldn't agree with Proweler more here. We can either take this a one heck of a massive lore glitch done by people who have forfeited solid, workable storyline for flashing graphics, or we can take this a completely different way.

Look in Inperial history and you will find if there is a single dark or questionable action or history, they consistently stamp the name of one of their Divines on it. It's the Tribunal all over again. They raise there hands and say, "Its all good because Akatosh did it. He's good so don't question it." Same basic idea with Vivec. You start rooting through the garbage however and you find a different picture.

Three Empires that all they have in common is the most egotistical being in history who doesn't give a damn if his goal to CHIM blows everything to shreads (You've read the book "Sithis" and Vehk's Teachings just as I have) pulling their strings from one angle or another. That's just the beginning. Then you have the Murder of the previous Aedra by the Maruhkati Selective in the first Age because Shor and Co. found the Aedra (their primary enemies) rather inconvienent to be revered in the happy Empire of Men (while on the topic, have you ever seen one single Mer in the Blades or Imperial Guard? Ok there's Ocato but he's one heck of a fluke. Can you say racism?). Add to that the fact that they could never, ever admit that the only thing saving their sorry behinds from total death by Daedra are the constructs of the Mer and their Leading Spirits (even Lorkhan's Heart if you will recall was torn out by Trinimac and only then shot off to create the Red Tower). But no, they have to give the Amulet Chim-el Adabal some stupid idiotic name like "The Amulet of Kings", pin an even lamer story on it, trap all their Emperors souls in it, then have the thing revered. After all that when I play Oblivion I want to throw the thing down a well.

The fact is we can get angry at the Devs, or we can get emotional about in-lore stuff that has been so cool and downright enjoyable for the last 12 years. I think I'll do the latter.

Posted by: Stargazey May 7 2006, 02:55 PM

QUOTE(m72 @ May 6 2006, 09:41 AM)

This chain of events, makes me think that Bethesda has been planning the Storyline for Oblivion since Arena. Conspiracy anyone?

MK said that OB had been planned since Ted was at Bethsoft, which was around '96, so yeah.


As to what's been said in this thread, I agree. There aren't a lot of explaniatons for stuff in Oblivion, but I think that's what I like best, in regards to roleplaying, that you can make up what you want. Beth basically gives you this, this, and that, and tells you to make up the rest, or wait for the next game.

I'm not saying that this is how it should be, I'm just saying that it's a bit more fun for roleplaying.

Posted by: Cow Guru May 7 2006, 03:04 PM

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't quietly do away with the lore forum altogether when Oblivion was released. They've turned an interesting, complex world into cookie-cutter fantasy with Gods and Demons to make it more understandable to the average gamer and make sure they get as many sales as possible. Throwing in Nu-Mantia Intercept just doesn't cut it - Bethesda doesn't give a damn about lore or interesting plotlines anymore.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure doesn't look like it.

Posted by: featherbrain May 7 2006, 03:27 PM

Looking at it another way, what meaningful and positive new contributions to the lore have been made by this game? And I mean new ideas, mysteries and conundrums, or greatly expanded historical details that we'll still be discussing in 2 or 3 years time.

There are some great new books in the game, but they don't really advance the lore in the way I mean. The Ayleids had potential, but as they are only a thinly-disguised Dwemer replacement (without the interest), it's no wonder that there has been virtually NO discussion of Ayleid lore in the forum beyond the puzzling inconsistencies in the storyline, or in connection with Nu-Hatta.

The new PGE had some fascinating new details and possibilities regarding races (Argonians especially) and regions (Summerset), but really what does all of this amount to?

OK, here's my challenge: cite one new item of in-game lore that I should still care about in 3 years time.

Posted by: Joe4730 May 7 2006, 03:37 PM

What with the Morrowind rumors of political and civil unrest concerning the royal succession i.e. rival powers jockeying for power as well as the rampant moral and political corruption at the highest levels of Imperial society, the ambitions of legion generals in the provinces hinted at in "The Eastern Provinces Impartially Considered", the daedric threat, and the death of Uriel Septim VII, I assumed that Bethesda could've put all these elements together for a mix of heated political intrigue ala Daggerfall, civil war, and heroic derring-do. Instead we get all the vapid heroics and little else. Though Morrowind is still my favorite, I like Oblivion but I too feel the lore has been turned on its ear. Since when was the Atmoran-Breton-Nordic outlander Tiber Septim and his heirs descendants of Alessia, whose line of native emperors kept Oblivion at bay by wearing the amulet of kings? I just don't like the whole notion of a family of elitist royals holding up the pillars of heaven. Too much spoon fed Imperial propaganda though unfortunately real in-game.

Love Septim or taste Oblivion.

Posted by: B May 7 2006, 03:47 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 7 2006, 07:25 AM)

Suddenly the joke isn't quite so funny any more. Seeing B angry and proweler so disappointed is ... sad. But there's a lot to be angry and sad about here.

I know it seems that way, but I'm not that angry, just disappointed. As I said, I love Oblivion as a game. I can play as a pure mage, be successful, and have fun; I enjoy the magic system.
QUOTE(proweler @ May 7 2006, 05:29 AM)

Thankfully, Nu-Mantia Intercept fills the hole.

Yes, and if it is so vital to the overall understanding, why wasn't that information in the game? Should a game require a person like MK to come to their forums and post important information so that the players understand the historical conflicts within the game?

Did Bethesda even enodorse MK's words? Look back at the thread: MK did most of the work. He barely got a response from anyone currently working at Bethesda. I got the impression that he was asked to stop, or gave up on his own because no one responded.

I'm not asking for much. Perhaps a Dev could come and say, "MK is full of crap, we changed things, get over it," or " Yes, there is more to the game than what's in there. The forums and TIL provide key pieces to the Lore. MK is on to something. Look at the bigger picture, and use Nu-Hatta's words as a guide."

Posted by: Cow Guru May 7 2006, 03:55 PM

QUOTE(Joe4730 @ May 7 2006, 01:37 PM)

What with the Morrowind rumors of political and civil unrest concerning the royal succession i.e. rival powers jockeying for power as well as the rampant moral and political corruption at the highest levels of Imperial society, the ambitions of legion generals in the provinces hinted at in "The Eastern Provinces Impartially Considered", the daedric threat, and the death of Uriel Septim VII, I assumed that Bethesda could've put all these elements together for a mix of heated political intrigue ala Daggerfall, civil war, and heroic derring-do. Instead we get all the vapid heroics and little else. Though Morrowind is still my favorite, I like Oblivion but I too feel the lore has been turned on its ear. Since when was the Atmoran-Breton-Nordic outlander Tiber Septim and his heirs descendants of Alessia, whose line of native emperors kept Oblivion at bay by wearing the amulet of kings? I just don't like the whole notion of a family of elitist royals holding up the pillars of heaven. Too much spoon fed Imperial propaganda though unfortunately real in-game.

Love Septim or taste Oblivion.


Indeed, the lack of political intrigue was frankly rubbish. The Emperor is dead, he has no known or recognized heirs, you're a count and one of Cyrodiil's leading powers - and you're content to sit about in your castle and look for paintings? Give me a break.

Posted by: featherbrain May 7 2006, 04:02 PM

QUOTE(Joe4730 @ May 7 2006, 01:37 PM)

Since when was the Atmoran-Breton-Nordic outlander Tiber Septim and his heirs descendants of Alessia, whose line of native emperors kept Oblivion at bay by wearing the amulet of kings?

Leaving aside the fact, of course, that Uriel VII and Martin were not descended directly from Tiber in any case, but rather from his brother Agnorith. Very valid points: the victor's version of history has somehow become an in-game truth that can't be queried, questioned or contradicted by anything in the game itself.

The Counts could have been plotting over the succession, some could have been skeptical about the grandiose claims regarding the power of the Amulet for this reason, and been reluctant to send troops on what might have appeared to them to be a fool's errand at Bruma. We could have aligned with one (or more) of them, and therefore taken a different route to the ending. At least one Count could have decided that salvation lay rather in understanding the secrets of the Ayleids and harnessing the power of their magics. The Moth Priests could have had an agenda of their own, as Nu-Hatta seemed to suggest, that didn't involve the Amulet but rather the realisation of another Elder Scroll prophecy. Ocato was a prime candidate for betrayal of the Septims for political reasons (although this has been done before). If the Imperial Legions were so conspicuously failing to protect the citizerns of Cyrodiil, wouldn't cities such as Cheyindhal attempt to secede and re-align with Morrowind? etc. The Dunmer could have had a completely different understanding of what the 'Oblivion Crisis' represented, and therefore a different idea of what the future held in store for the Empire, and acted accordingly, etc.

The possibilities are not difficult to imagine. Although apparently they are.

QUOTE(Cow Guru @ May 7 2006, 01:55 PM)

Indeed, the lack of political intrigue was frankly rubbish. The Emperor is dead, he has no known or recognized heirs, you're a count and one of Cyrodiil's leading powers - and you're content to sit about in your castle and look for paintings? Give me a break.

Or more interested in stopping a troublesome Orc from cluttering up your hall, or reigning in a wayward son, or curing your wife of vampirism, or finding some Akaviri trinkets to add to your collection, or taking a stroll to see your mum ...


Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 7 2006, 09:09 PM

=( there wasn't a lot of duelality...When I played Morrowind I had no idea what i was getting in to (i play it on the xbox!!oh noz!) and it was the greatest thign ever etc etc, but it came to this strange point..where I had at least three different stories about what happened at Red Mountain...Something that..involved me (thay convinced me I was the incarnate)...i mean i spent a lot of time considering what was right and wrong, and if i should bring the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur down..or even if Dagoth was somewhat right...if the Tribunal had betrayed me...what were Azura's real motives, what happened to the Dwemer....was Wulfharth really there?

I mean..it was great trying to figure these things out, reading texts, gathering theories and clues...

in Oblivion I was spoon-fed one storyline, one point of few..and other then a few ramblings from Manakar camaron...that was it...

No..great revelation...or..anything..that was it..

the end.

Posted by: featherbrain May 7 2006, 09:25 PM

QUOTE(Ysmir The Underking @ May 7 2006, 07:09 PM)

the end.


"The rest is silence."


Posted by: B May 8 2006, 11:35 AM

And what is frustrating about this whole situation is this quote from one of the fan interviews:

Q: How will the books and texts released after Morrowind (e.g. Vehk's Teachings) and the teasers and reports before Oblivion (e.g. Nu-Mantia Intercept, Love Letter from the Fifth Era, etc.) be folded into the official lore and will this lore appear in-game? Was the 'Trial of Vivec' RP (which culminated in the banishing of Azura from Mundus) a semi-official conclusion of the Morrowind storyline, or can we expect to learn more of its connection to recent events, along with the true fate of Vivec/Vehk?

Pete: Remember that only things that have been published in Elder Scrolls games should be considered official lore.

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 8 2006, 12:02 PM

lol Yes!
Oblivion IS the OFFCIAL LORE!

Therefore everything outside of it that conflcts with it, is a lie!!!!

That is so..absurd, it hurts with funny.

The way he answers it is like he is going to provide the real outcome of Morrowind in the game.

The real answers being,
"Hello"
"Hello"
"Hey I heard Vicec disappeared"
"Fagus Farboth can make potions"
"goodbye"
"goodbye"

And:
"Hey"
"Get out of my way"
"Any news from the other provinces?"
"The Neverain went to Akavir"
...
...
...
Thanks Pete! That was waaay better then the bothersome RP and things MK wrote!


Posted by: proweler May 8 2006, 12:07 PM

I dunno, it seems people got so carried away with writing Imperial Propaganda that they forgot it was just propaganda, not reality.

Or maybe, just maybe, everybody got a crash course lore from the First PGE.

Posted by: B May 8 2006, 07:06 PM

As we've said, a little clarification would be appreciated.

Posted by: featherbrain May 8 2006, 08:33 PM

Indeed.

*waves hands mysteriously*

The alternative, of course, is to take Pete's (or whoever it was) comments at face value and accept that Oblivion's version of events is accurate, unambiguous and now 'canon'. Therefore I propose going through the IL and striking out all and every element of lore - in the Timeline especially - that conflicts with it.

Starting with Lorkhan's Akatosh's role in the Alessian revolt (despite what MK posted about this).

Then:

Mannimarco: Rumors and legends say that he is a lich an Altmer of tremendous moderate power. Oh, wait, then someone would have to edit http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/mannimarco.shtml poem in Oblivion itself:

They brought to him these tools, mad wizards and witches,
And brought blood-tainted herbs and oils to his cave of sin,
Sweet Akaviri poison, dust from saints, sheafs of human skin,
Toadstools, roots, and much more cluttered his alchemical shelf,
Like a spider in his web, he sucked all their power into himself,
Mannimarco, Worm King, world's first of the undying liches somewhat mortal Altmers.

Posted by: Sheogorath May 8 2006, 09:51 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 8 2006, 02:33 PM)

The alternative, of course, is to take Pete's (or whoever it was) comments at face value and accept that Oblivion's version of events is accurate, unambiguous and now 'canon'.


Well, there's no reason to assume that, even based on what Pete said. Contradiction was built into the series from early on.

In other words, lore contradictions are not necessarily a mistake.

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b084_betony_daggerfall.shtml

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b083_betony_sentinel.shtml

Posted by: Polycarp May 8 2006, 10:28 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 8 2006, 12:07 PM)

I dunno, it seems people got so carried away with writing Imperial Propaganda that they forgot it was just propaganda, not reality.

Or maybe, just maybe, everybody got a crash course lore from the First PGE.

Truth be told, if all that is considered official is Martin and Jaufree yammering propaganda, if the Empire with their pathetic ascended monkeys they call gods are the "good" guys, and we have to buy all that absolute garbage... I am flat out leaving Elder Scrolls.

Now if they happened to leave in even just the Nu-Mantia... suddenly it's interesting again. With the Dragon Break suddenly there is an insidious Empire of Chaotic men allied with an evil and ambitious being working from behind the cover of puppet "gods." Suddenly there's life in the series and it possesses I think a little of what we all enjoy about it. Heck, even if you think the Empire is God's gift to man it's suddenly interesting.

I'm serious, they make the Empire the good guys I'm gone. Period.

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 8 2006, 10:37 PM

So...can I have your stuff?

I'm still rather new around here, I do have a few Disciiples who will post every so often...but if i had your stuff it'd be a lot easier for Unerkingers

Posted by: Sheogorath May 8 2006, 11:01 PM

QUOTE(adamant_2001 @ May 6 2006, 05:44 PM)

TP: What the hell? Your Akaviri have legs? ...and this is after all of the crap Michael put me through to make sure that they were vampire-snake-men?


OK, that one is funny ...

Posted by: featherbrain May 8 2006, 11:18 PM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 07:51 PM)

Well, there's no reason to assume that, even based on what Pete said. Contradiction was built into the series from early on.

In other words, lore contradictions are not necessarily a mistake.

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b084_betony_daggerfall.shtml

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b083_betony_sentinel.shtml

But those books were in the same game, were they not? I have no problem with a game contradicting itself if this contributes to a sense of the contested nature of events in the game world. The problem is that Oblivion doesn't offer any contradictory perspectives on its own events - only inconsistencies that seem like bugs or oversights. What it certainly *does* do, though, is contradict a lot of what we understand about the history and lore of Tamriel thus far from the other games.

Posted by: Polycarp May 8 2006, 11:22 PM

QUOTE(Ysmir The Underking @ May 8 2006, 10:37 PM)

So...can I have your stuff?

I'm still rather new around here, I do have a few Disciiples who will post every so often...but if i had your stuff it'd be a lot easier for Unerkingers

Lol Ysmir.

Posted by: Sheogorath May 8 2006, 11:31 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 8 2006, 05:18 PM)

But those books were in the same game, were they not? I have no problem with a game contradicting itself if this contributes to a sense of the contested nature of events in the game world. The problem is that Oblivion doesn't offer any contradictory perspectives on its own events - only inconsistencies that seem like bugs or oversights. What it certainly *does* do, though, is contradict a lot of what we understand about the history and lore of Tamriel thus far from the other games.


I'm merely challenging your assumption that Pete's words can only mean that Oblivion's lore is fact and unambiguous. The only thing Pete said is that the postings in this forum should not be taken as official lore. The stuff in Arena, Daggerfall, Battlespire, Redguard, Morrowind, Tribunal, Bloodmoon, and Oblivion are official lore ... and not unambiguous.



Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 8 2006, 11:34 PM

Doesn't that give validity to the fact that when Oblivion states something different from what something in this forum states, that Oblivion is correct?

Posted by: featherbrain May 8 2006, 11:45 PM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 09:31 PM)

I'm merely challenging your assumption that Pete's words can only mean that Oblivion's lore is fact and unambiguous. The only thing Pete said is that the postings in this forum should not be taken as official lore. The stuff in Arena, Daggerfall, Battlespire, Redguard, Morrowind, Tribunal, Bloodmoon, and Oblivion are official lore ... and not unambiguous.

Ok, I'm taking this to mean that it would indeed be worth trying to reconcile the lore of Oblivion with the rest of the series - that this would be a meaningful task for us here, as opposed to an exercise in futility. There are many circles to square here (and triangles and rhomboids and wabbajacks), and perhaps we'll learn something surprising and unexpected in the process. That would be delightful, and Polycarp could keep his stuff, .

A hint of some kind might be motivating at this stage - which is what I think B is getting at. I'm all for setting off on journeys without knowing the destination, but fool's errands - no. Unless Sheogorath commands, of course ...


Posted by: Sheogorath May 8 2006, 11:59 PM

QUOTE(Ysmir The Underking @ May 8 2006, 05:34 PM)

Doesn't that give validity to the fact that when Oblivion states something different from what something in this forum states, that Oblivion is correct?


Nope. It means that if something is stated in this forum it's not lore, and if something is stated in Oblivion, it is. That has nothing to do with which one is correct. The TES lore is all about opinions of history and metaphysics, not facts about them. That's why I showed the two versions of The War Of Betony. That occured recently in the events of Daggerfall, yet people's opinion about what actually happened was divided. Anyone's opinion of What's Really Happening may be true ... And as a single-player you-can-be-anyone-you-want-to-be RPG, your opinion is actually more valid than that of in-game sages. Truth and lore are two very different things.

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 8 2006, 05:45 PM)

Ok, I'm taking this to mean that it would indeed be worth trying to reconcile the lore of Oblivion with the rest of the series - that this would be a meaningful task for us here, as opposed to an exercise in futility. There are many circles to square here (and triangles and rhomboids and wabbajacks), and perhaps we'll learn something surprising and unexpected in the process. That would be delightful, and Polycarp could keep his stuff, .

A hint of some kind might be motivating at this stage - which is what I think B is getting at. I'm all for setting off on journeys without knowing the destination, but fool's errands - no. Unless Sheogorath commands, of course ...


That's the only errand I know. And I wouldn't have the first clue about what kind of a clue would help you ...

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 9 2006, 12:11 AM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 8 2006, 04:45 PM)

That would be delightful, and Polycarp could keep his stuff, .



What?!?! This is a terrible plan!

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 12:16 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 09:59 PM)

And I wouldn't have the first clue about what kind of a clue would help you ...

Here's one for starters, the question behind the question that started this thread:

Who made the Amulet of Kings: Lorkhan, Akatosh, Ayleids or all of them?

I'm not looking for an answer to this question. I'm looking for a way of starting the journey to answer it that doesn't take me outside of the series lore to non-canon dev posts here or elsewhere (which is what we've all been doing so far - hence B's protest) if all of that, in the end, doesn't amount to anything very meaningful at all (apart from a beautiful vision of what is/is not).

I understand that it isn't your responsibility to provide one, by the way, not by a long stretch, and I don't expect to get one. But I hope you'll understand the reason for asking.

QUOTE(Ysmir The Underking @ May 8 2006, 10:11 PM)

What?!?! This is a terrible plan!

Lol, calm down, you can borrow some of my stuff.


Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 12:28 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 08:51 PM)

Lore contradictions are not necessarily a mistake.


So what happend to the opposing piece? Where are the people that look through the Imperial doctrine? Are there no apocrypha? There is no opposition, so like B wonderd: Are we still running the same story?

edit:

Nevermind, B's been more eqoulent then me today.

Posted by: Sheogorath May 9 2006, 01:09 AM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 8 2006, 06:16 PM)

Here's one for starters, the question behind the question that started this thread:

Who made the Amulet of Kings: Lorkhan, Akatosh, Ayleids or all of them?

I'm not looking for an answer to this question. I'm looking for a way of starting the journey to answer it that doesn't take me outside of the series lore to non-canon dev posts here or elsewhere (which is what we've all been doing so far - hence B's protest) if all of that, in the end, doesn't amount to anything very meaningful at all (apart from a beautiful vision of what is/is not).

I understand that it isn't your responsibility to provide one, by the way, not by a long stretch, and I don't expect to get one. But I hope you'll understand the reason for asking.


I do, and I hope you're not getting from my posts anything except my appreciation for the TES loremasters.

I do, of course, have my own, completely personal theory about the Amulet, which is definitely not lore, nor necessarily true.

Truthfully, I have no expertise on the subject of Oblivion's main quest or the Amulet of Kings. The only advice I could give is to begin with what you as a player see with your own eyes in Oblivion, coupled with what you see with your own eyes in Bloodmoon, Tribunal, Morrowind, Battlespire, Redguard, Daggerfall, and Arena. When presented with alternate, conflicting theories, ask yourself what you're being told, and what motivation the speaker or writer has in telling you what he or she does.

I know all that sounds obvious, but sometimes when getting too deep into one's own theory, you miss some important early steps.

It is impossible to deny that Akatosh has some connection to the Septim Emperors and the Amulet, based on what you see. Does that mean that he necessarily made the Amulet?

Not to me it doesn't.


Posted by: B May 9 2006, 01:31 AM

Thank you, Ted. Your posting in here means a lot to me. I appreciate your words of wisdom, and I completely agree with your logic. I understand your example of the two versions of The War Of Betony. There have always been contractions in ES lore. Besides the one you’ve mentioned, there are many others, e.g. The Battle of Red Mountain, Who Really is the Underking, et cetera. All those views have been presented in a game.

As the others have said, my first problem is that there wasn’t an alternate view presented in the game. So much effort went into this game; it wouldn’t have taken much to smooth things over a bit--And maybe this discussion is premature. Maybe some new information will come to light in an expansion. I won't hold my breath, though.

I’ll even go one step further: I have no problem with Mannimarco's ineptitude, Akatosh being swapped for Lorkhan, or even Mankar’s view of Mundus being the Oblivion realm of Lorkhan (I kind of like that) because I can wrap my pretty little head around all of that. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that the http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/trials_st_alessia.shtml says:

I don’t care how much Imperial propaganda is dished out, there is no way that the inhabitants of Nirn are that stupid or naive to believe that Alessia’s Bloodline has never been broken. All I would need is a reason for why Uriel’s death caused the Gates to open now and not the numerous times before when "no heir of our joined blood [wore] the Amulet of Kings." And I would like that reason to be present in the game.

Posted by: GigaMagusZ May 9 2006, 01:51 AM

My take on all this is that loremasters are trying to discern the truth from all the information given, and because of conflicting information we come to different conclusions. There isn't anything wrong with that. But the goal is still the same, we all want to be on the same page about what actually happened. The fact that that will probably never happen is part of what is so appealing about TES.

But that's what makes some of Oblivion's lore so out of place. It just seems entirely incompatible with what we already know. If the goal is to totally rewrite the history of TES as we understand it, then fine, but the thing is we have nowhere to go with it. Oblivion's lore is comparatively shallow to the rest of TES, and we don't know if it's a new direction that is completely seperate from the established lore, or if it has it's own deeper meaning that we haven't fully explored yet.

So, the basic question is, did you just throw out the old book and start anew with Oblivion? Because if Oblivion is really just another chapter of the lore, it totally doesn't seem to jive. The Nu-Mantia Intercept is just about the only thing we have linking the old with the new, and we're not even sure that applies. Telling us to draw our own conclusions on this seems a bit weak and lazy.

Sorry if it seems like I'm rambling. I'm trying to be as articulate as possible.

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 01:53 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 11:09 PM)

I do, and I hope you're not getting from my posts anything except my appreciation for the TES loremasters.

That's a given! Why else would we try to test the patience of a Prince?

QUOTE

It is impossible to deny that Akatosh has some connection to the Septim Emperors and the Amulet, based on what you see. Does that mean that he necessarily made the Amulet?

Not to me it doesn't.

Hmm, your unwords may have unriddled me. I shall ponder ...

Posted by: Sheogorath May 9 2006, 02:06 AM

QUOTE(B @ May 8 2006, 07:31 PM)

I don’t care how much Imperial propaganda is dished out, there is no way that the inhabitants of Nirn are that stupid or naive to believe that Alessia’s Bloodline has never been broken. All I would need is a reason for why Uriel’s death caused the Gates to open now and not the numerous times before when "no heir of our joined blood [wore] the Amulet of Kings." And I would like that reason to be present in the game.


Well, first, let me say that in my opinion, you're right, this is complete propaganda.

Now, taking the position of someone who swallows this propaganda as truth, I read that to mean that the bloodline was indeed broken, several times. It broke between the Alessian Empire and the Reman Empire, and between the Reman Empire and the Septim Empire. It broke, and misrule did indeed govern the land.

Are Alessia, Reman, and Tiber related? They could be. Are all the people who ruled their Empires directly related by blood? Definitely not. There's no way to make that case. As a propaganda swallower, however, I would believe that they are spiritual descendents. The blood of Alessia is the blood of a great, noble, strong, fair, and powerful leader. Katariah, for example, was a great Empress, though not related to any of the Emperors who came before or after, except by marriage.

In short, the propaganda is merely a mythical elevation of the oldest medieval concept: the King is the State. If he is weak, so is the land. The message the propaganda delivers is simple: you must have a strong, central authority, or all will be chaos. You must submit to the will of the blood of Alessia.

QUOTE(GigaMagusZ @ May 8 2006, 07:51 PM)

Telling us to draw our own conclusions on this seems a bit weak and lazy.


Possibly, but that's what we've been doing for the entire series, so our weakness and laziness is nothing new.

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 9 2006, 02:21 AM

There seemed to be a little more of a trail to follow in Morrowind, where you could find the alternative to the truth, and therefore knew there was more then the truth. Although we might know there is more then the truth, there is not so much evidence that points us in the right direction of what the alternatives might be...
..so while we may be able to ponder different histories, or truths, we'd just be grabbing at shadows and ghosts, without any sort of official pointer telling us that where are headed is justifiable.

In short, we'd just be making stuff up. To make outselves feel better, because some one else didn't make anything up for us.

Posted by: GigaMagusZ May 9 2006, 02:28 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 07:06 PM)

Possibly, but that's what we've been doing for the entire series, so our weakness and laziness is nothing new.

Hahaha. I'm not sure I really believe that though. I think there's a difference between the conflicting accounts in the two War of Betony books, and what's going on here. The War of Betony books gives you details and leaves it up to you to decide what you think it correct, and lets you use information from those books, and other sources to come up with your own conclusions, and fill in the blanks where you find it to be necessary.

Oblivion's lore is akin to telling us that The Lord of the Rings and the Baldur's Gate series both take place in the same world, and just leaving it up to us to string them together. There's simply not enough information given to reach any reasonable conclusion. We can only fill in so many blanks. But that's not even the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that the gaps are so huge, we're not even sure they're intended to be bridged. That is, Oblivion's lore is so radically different we don't know if it's even intended to be compatible with a lot of what we already "know".

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 02:47 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 12:06 AM)

In short, the propaganda is merely a mythical elevation of the oldest medieval concept: the King is the State. If he is weak, so is the land. The message the propaganda delivers is simple: you must have a strong, central authority, or all will be chaos. You must submit to the will of the blood of Alessia.

So here's a thought: if the idea of L'Etat c'est moi is indeed behind all of this propaganda, I'd like to assume that it wasn't, in fact, divinely sanctioned. If it were, then it wouldn't be Imperial propaganda at all but a fact: i.e. abandon the Empire as conceived by the gods, and the gods will abandon you, as evidenced by such and such an event, etc. So it seems most consistent here to believe that the apparent protection of the Empire by Akatosh in the past was merely that: an appearance or illusion of divine protection only, written back into Imperial history and supported (retrospectively) by examples of chaos in the absence of a strong central authority. It's a mystifictation of perfectly non-supernatural events in the Imperial past that serves present needs.

So, now to the question of why Akatosh does actually act in a completely unmistakable way to protect the current Empire in keeping with the grand story about the Amulet and Dragonfires, etc. If I were to take the above viewpoint seriously (not quite there yet), I'd be led to the inevitable conclusion that it was just a coincidence that Akatosh chose to act now in a way that appeared to confirm the propaganda; or rather, that he acted for reasons of his own that had little to do with the Alessian fairy story (to quote proweler). Then we need to ask (again): what particular combination of circumstances and events would have led Akatosh to act in this particular way at this time? That points us to everything that has contributed to the weakening of the barriers in the previous games, and the culmination of the Aedra/Daedra conflict at this unique point in time - and yes, even Nu-Hatta.

In this respect, it is perhaps most important that Akatosh chooses to act at the *end* of the Empire as conceived until now; that is, leaving no Emperor on the throne, and with no apparent need for one to ensure the survival of the Empire (according to the propaganda). The Imperial mystification only works if Martin is considered to be the only surviving heir; but now he's gone in a way that confirms the propogandist's view, while actually destroying that vision of Empire in the process. It is the culmination of the propagandist's logic, even as it destroys it.

As a side-benefit, if Akataosh had never actually acted before this point, this leaves open the possibility that Lorkhan could have started the whole ball rolling with the Amulet before disappearing from the scene. That was obviously embarrassing, so needed to be re-written, hence Akatosh taking his place in the fictional story - because Akatosh could be relied upon never to do anything. Until now.

Anyways, just some unstructured thoughts.

Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 02:51 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 01:06 AM)

As a propaganda swallower, however, I would believe that they are spiritual descendents.


Yet the Empire hasn't always been strong, even when there was legitimate ruler wearing the Amulet of Kings.

Right after Tiber Septim things went downhill with "Pelagius I" and they reached a real low with "Kintyra II" and "Uriel III". As a believer you could argue that these were not spiritual descendants of Allesia, they were however blood relatives.
Things went uphill again when Katariah took the throne but she wasn't related to the Septims other then by inheritance. As a believer you'd reason that she has the spirit of Allesia, she doesn't have a blood relation though.
I don't think the Imperial propaganda wants to suggest that the blood relation is not important.

Also what is the deal with not being able to put on the Amulet of Kings? I doubt the Imperial propaganda wants to suggest that any hack like Mankar Camoran, who manages to put on the Amulet, is the rightful ruler of Tamriel.

While we are at the topic, was the brother of Tiber Septim a Nord from Atmora or a Breton?

QUOTE(GigaMagusZ @ May 9 2006, 01:28 AM)
Hahaha. I'm not sure I really believe that though.


You, better believe that one.

Posted by: B May 9 2006, 02:58 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 08:06 PM)

Well, first, let me say that in my opinion, you're right, this is complete propaganda.

Now, taking the position of someone who swallows this propaganda as truth, I read that to mean that the bloodline was indeed broken, several times. It broke between the Alessian Empire and the Reman Empire, and between the Reman Empire and the Septim Empire. It broke, and misrule did indeed govern the land.

Are Alessia, Reman, and Tiber related? They could be. Are all the people who ruled their Empires directly related by blood? Definitely not. There's no way to make that case. As a propaganda swallower, however, I would believe that they are spiritual descendents. The blood of Alessia is the blood of a great, noble, strong, fair, and powerful leader. Katariah, for example, was a great Empress, though not related to any of the Emperors who came before or after, except by marriage.

In short, the propaganda is merely a mythical elevation of the oldest medieval concept: the King is the State. If he is weak, so is the land. The message the propaganda delivers is simple: you must have a strong, central authority, or all will be chaos. You must submit to the will of the blood of Alessia.

I love it! You could sell swampland in Florida; perhaps even convince an Eskimo to buy a refrigerator. . .

I can swallow some of that, Ted. We know that the aforementioned portion of the Trials of St. Alessia cannot be true unless Alessia was extremely promiscuous. You’d have to account for Potentate Versidue-Shaie too.

The ‘symbolic bloodline’ of “a strong, central authority” makes sense to a point. I understand the chaos that has occurred in the past when there hasn’t been a strong leader, but the claim is made that the Gates of Oblivion would only be held shut if the descendants wore the Amulet of Kings. It was pretty specific, as is the term “Demons of Misrule.” Your interpretation can satisfy the claims to a point, but I think it is still missing something.

Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 03:17 AM

To wrap it up.

Amulet of Kings: Elven Artifact.

First Era: Allesian Shezarrite propaganda
Second Era: Chaos
Third Era: Imperial Akatosh Propaganda

Nice to meet the enatiomorph again.

QUOTE(B @ May 9 2006, 01:58 AM)

I can swallow some of that, Ted. We know that the aforementioned portion of the Trials of St. Alessia cannot be true unless Alessia was extremely promiscuous. You’d have to account for Potentate Versidue-Shaie too.


She had a demi-god lover Morihaus-Breath-of-Kyne, I'm sure the dibellians could tell us more about that. The Potentate refused the Amulet of Kings, he didn't became Emperor, only potentate.

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 03:27 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 9 2006, 01:17 AM)

To wrap it up.

Amulet of Kings: Elven Artifact.

First Era: Allesian Shezarrite propaganda
Second Era: Chaos
Third Era: Imperial Akatosh Propaganda

Nice to meet the enatiomorph again.

Ha, I like it.

I'm beginning to think, though, that if the gods were involved in any of this at all, then Akatosh has essentially called Lorkhan's bluff. He has brought to an end the Empire of Men fabricated by Lorkhan by enacting the myth in as literal a way as possible, but only at the last stand, and to realise his own designs for Mundus.

This is what happens when you take the names of gods in vain. They take you deadly seriously in return.

Posted by: Sheogorath May 9 2006, 03:27 AM

QUOTE(GigaMagusZ @ May 8 2006, 08:28 PM)

Hahaha. I'm not sure I really believe that though. I think there's a difference between the conflicting accounts in the two War of Betony books, and what's going on here. The War of Betony books gives you details and leaves it up to you to decide what you think it correct, and lets you use information from those books, and other sources to come up with your own conclusions, and fill in the blanks where you find it to be necessary.

Oblivion's lore is akin to telling us that The Lord of the Rings and the Baldur's Gate series both take place in the same world, and just leaving it up to us to string them together. There's simply not enough information given to reach any reasonable conclusion. We can only fill in so many blanks. But that's not even the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that the gaps are so huge, we're not even sure they're intended to be bridged. That is, Oblivion's lore is so radically different we don't know if it's even intended to be compatible with a lot of what we already "know".


QUOTE(Ysmir The Underking @ May 8 2006, 08:21 PM)

There seemed to be a little more of a trail to follow in Morrowind, where you could find the alternative to the truth, and therefore knew there was more then the truth. Although we might know there is more then the truth, there is not so much evidence that points us in the right direction of what the alternatives might be...
..so while we may be able to ponder different histories, or truths, we'd just be grabbing at shadows and ghosts, without any sort of official pointer telling us that where are headed is justifiable.

In short, we'd just be making stuff up. To make outselves feel better, because some one else didn't make anything up for us.


I hear you guys, and respect what you're saying. Unfortunately, not much I can do or say about that, but I hope you find something in the lore that inspires you down the line.

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 8 2006, 08:47 PM)

Anyways, just some unstructured thoughts.


Well, I'm all about unstructured thoughts, and I follow you completely.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 8 2006, 08:51 PM)

Yet the Empire hasn't always been strong, even when there was legitimate ruler wearing the Amulet of Kings.

Right after Tiber Septim things went downhill with "Pelagius I" and they reached a real low with "Kintyra II" and "Uriel III". As a believer you could argue that these were not spiritual descendants of Allesia, they were however blood relatives.
Things went uphill again when Katariah took the throne but she wasn't related to the Septims other then by inheritance. As a believer you'd reason that she has the spirit of Allesia, she doesn't have a blood relation though.
I don't think the Imperial propaganda wants to suggest that the blood relation is not important.

Also what is the deal with not being able to put on the Amulet of Kings? I doubt the Imperial propaganda wants to suggest that any hack like Mankar Camoran, who manages to put on the Amulet, is the rightful ruler of Tamriel.

While we are at the topic, was the brother of Tiber Septim a Nord from Atmora or a Breton?


No, as propaganda-swallower, I would say that even these weak rulers were spiritual descendents of Alessia. As bad they were, I would argue, any other alternative would be worse. And I wouldn't argue that blood relationships are not important. I would have supported the Elder Council's decision to disinherit Andorak in 3E 248, not because he was not capable, but because Cephorus, being closer to the Septim blood, was more capable ...

Tiber Septim himself believed that there was a link between blood, at least perceived blood, and authority. He gave himself a Cyrodilic name to assert himself as part of the great lineage that included Alessia and Reman. If he was an Atmoran, as some believe, it was even more important for him to deny that heritage and embrace the Imperial one.

Tiber's brother was ... whatever race Tiber was ...

QUOTE(B @ May 8 2006, 08:58 PM)

I love it! You could sell swampland in Florida; perhaps even convince an Eskimo to buy a refrigerator. . .

I can swallow some of that, Ted. We know that the aforementioned portion of the Trials of St. Alessia cannot be true unless Alessia was extremely promiscuous. You’d have to account for Potentate Versidue-Shaie too.

The ‘symbolic bloodline’ of “a strong, central authority” makes sense to a point. I understand the chaos that has occurred in the past when there hasn’t been a strong leader, but the claim is made that the Gates of Oblivion would only be held shut if the descendants wore the Amulet of Kings. It was pretty specific, as is the term “Demons of Misrule.” Your interpretation can satisfy the claims to a point, but I think it is still missing something.


Like I said, I consider it propaganda, something to sell to the masses, and like all propaganda, it doesn't stand up to hearty analysis. But it's the way I read it.

Posted by: Xanathar May 9 2006, 03:33 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 06:09 AM)

"The only advice I could give is to begin with what you as a player see with your own eyes in Oblivion, coupled with what you see with your own eyes in Bloodmoon, Tribunal, Morrowind, Battlespire, Redguard, Daggerfall, and Arena. When presented with alternate, conflicting theories, ask yourself what you're being told, and what motivation the speaker or writer has in telling you what he or she does."


Good advice.

Posted by: GigaMagusZ May 9 2006, 04:19 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 08:27 PM)

I hear you guys, and respect what you're saying. Unfortunately, not much I can do or say about that, but I hope you find something in the lore that inspires you down the line.

Oh, I think that what you're doing here right now has been very helpful, actually. And I think doing more of it is exactly how you can help fill in the blanks. I hope you and other developers continue helping us bridge the gaps, even if it is not canon. While it is disappointing that it isn't in the games, it shows that you do care about the story and it's interpretations, which is very encouraging, and helps us fill in what seems like impossibly huge blanks.

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 11:16 AM

Thinking about it some more, this thread has - quite unexpectedly - made me think of the MQ in a completely different light. It's actually making some kind of sense to me now. My key conclusion: the Empire as we've known it is no more, and Akatosh wanted it this way. He has deliberately closed the chapter of Tamrielic history dominated by the Septims, even as he confirmed their self-mythologising and all the claptrap about the Amulet of Kings. 'Yes, I will affirm the Septims' historic and spiritual claim on the throne,' Akatosh seems to be saying, 'but the price for my intervention will be the Empire itself.'

Let's hope that the expansions won't try to press the reset button, though. A brave choice here would be to ensure that Martin was actually the last of the Emperors, and that a completely different political reality will start to take hold in Tamriel as a result. This leaves the field wide open for new possibilties, and I for one am starting to look forward to them again.

But this belongs in another thread.

Posted by: B May 9 2006, 01:52 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 8 2006, 09:17 PM)

She had a demi-god lover Morihaus-Breath-of-Kyne, I'm sure the dibellians could tell us more about that. The Potentate refused the Amulet of Kings, he didn't became Emperor, only potentate.

All the more reason why the Gates should have opened then. If he did refuse the Amulet as you’ve speculated, there wasn’t anyone wearing the Amulet of Kings. In my mind that’s two strikes against the Trials of St. Alessia: There was no ‘blood’ relation on the throne, and the Amulet of Kings went unworn.

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 8 2006, 09:27 PM)

Like I said, I consider it propaganda, something to sell to the masses, and like all propaganda, it doesn't stand up to hearty analysis. But it's the way I read it.

Would that be Imperial Propaganda or Bethesda Propaganda?

I cannot stress this enough: Thank you for coming in here and discussing these hypotheses with us, Ted. It helps us make some sense of what we've found in Oblivion. I feel a little better, even though nothing we’ve mentioned here is official.

Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 04:57 PM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 02:27 AM)
Tiber Septim himself believed that there was a link between blood, at least perceived blood, and authority. He gave himself a Cyrodilic name to assert himself as part of the great lineage that included Alessia and Reman. If he was an Atmoran, as some believe, it was even more important for him to deny that heritage and embrace the Imperial one.

Tiber's brother was ... whatever race Tiber was ...


Yet the Pocket Guide, Tiber Septims own propaganda piece, claims the opposite. He was Cuhlecain's Atmoran general. The Nords allied themselves with Tiber because of his Atmoran roots, made clear by his Thu'um, hence it stresses that he is an Atmoran and not a Breton or Imperial.

Tiber had the same problem Allesia had. He couldn't play it either way.

QUOTE
Like I said, I consider it propaganda, something to sell to the masses, and like all propaganda, it doesn't stand up to hearty analysis. But it's the way I read it.


Then comes the unawnserable qeustion, what happend to the opposition?


Posted by: Fishy May 9 2006, 05:18 PM

The opposition against the most popular entity in a country and the most popular rulling party ever in that province is always going to be small, it probably exists in other provinces but Cyrodiil loves the Empire they love the Empire, a very, very small minority at most would try to throw in conflicting theory's, and apparently they are surpressed effectively.

Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 06:25 PM

QUOTE(Fishy @ May 9 2006, 04:18 PM)

The opposition against the most popular entity in a country and the most popular rulling party ever in that province is always going to be small, it probably exists in other provinces but Cyrodiil loves the Empire they love the Empire, a very, very small minority at most would try to throw in conflicting theory's, and apparently they are surpressed effectively.


Cyrodiil houses many different cultures and nationalities. It is suposed to be the home of many different cults and religions as people from all over the Tamriel come to Cyrodiil.
I'd think the Nords and Yokudans would prefer their own myths and tales, rather then the boring Sermons of the Nine. Likewise the Altmer and Bosmer have their own distinct religious flavor. Allong with those special cults and cults devoted to a single Divine you'd think there'd be a good number of Allesians, Maruhkati, Emperor Zero cults about.

I understand you can make an entire game out of the Imperial City alone, but a little more written spice isn't that much to ask, is it?

Posted by: Sheogorath May 9 2006, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(B @ May 9 2006, 07:52 AM)

I cannot stress this enough: Thank you for coming in here and discussing these hypotheses with us, Ted. It helps us make some sense of what we've found in Oblivion. I feel a little better, even though nothing we’ve mentioned here is official.


Not at all. I want to stress how important it is that there are passionate loremasters involved in TES, who can explain history and lore to people who are just starting off. You guys are an invaluable resource.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 9 2006, 10:57 AM)

Yet the Pocket Guide, Tiber Septims own propaganda piece, claims the opposite. He was Cuhlecain's Atmoran general. The Nords allied themselves with Tiber because of his Atmoran roots, made clear by his Thu'um, hence it stresses that he is an Atmoran and not a Breton or Imperial.


It's not at all unusual for a politician to walk a fence like that. Without getting political, one can look to the current President, who is part of the most powerful political dynasty in American politics, and yet cast himself as the good old boy, Washington outsider to attract the affection of the "common folk." We're as schizophrenic as Tamriel in what we want from our leaders.

And no, this is not an invitation to turn this thread, which is already off topic, into a "Hey, let's talk about what we think of Bush" thread. Practically any American political leader or world leader in general must hold the support of a very disparate group of constituents.

Posted by: B May 9 2006, 06:47 PM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 12:31 PM)

Not at all. I want to stress how important it is that there are passionate loremasters involved in TES, who can explain history and lore to people who are just starting off. You guys are an invaluable resource.

Thank you.

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 12:31 PM)

It's not at all unusual for a politician to walk a fence like that. Without getting political, one can look to the current President, who is part of the most powerful political dynasty in American politics, and yet cast himself as the good old boy, Washington outsider to attract the affection of the "common folk." We're as schizophrenic as Tamriel in what we want from our leaders.

And no, this is not an invitation to turn this thread, which is already off topic, into a "Hey, let's talk about what we think of Bush" thread. Practically any American political leader or world leader in general must hold the support of a very disparate group of constituents.

Let's get back to the Amulet of Kings...

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 07:17 PM

QUOTE

Let's get back to the Amulet of Kings...

I'm trying! My answer to the thread question is: it doesn't matter who wore the Amulet - or even whether it was worn - in the past, as Akatosh never made that covenant with Alessia, and so the Amulet + Emperor combo never had the power to hold shut the gates in the first place. We need to look for other ways of explaining the latter (far more interesting Nu-Hattaish ones).

Here's my contention: that if Martin had, indeed, been able to get to the Temple of the One in time and light the Dragonfires, *nothing* would have happened. The gates would have remained open, the invasion would have continued unabated, and the propaganda would have been exposed for what it was. It took Akatosh's direct intervention to save the situation, and then only at the cost of the Empire itself. I much prefer this to the propagandist's idea (c.f. Trials of St Alessia) of Akatosh somehow passively holding the gates shut and thereby tacitly buttressing the legitimacy of the Septims' claim. That's just too convenient, as it never required proof, Akatosh never needed to be witnessed actually doing anything. In fact, Akatosh doing *nothing* was far more convenient for the propagandists. Here absence of evidence really does equate to evidence of absence, for once.

That's my view. So, please shoot me down in flames.

Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 07:29 PM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 05:31 PM)

It's not at all unusual for a politician to walk a fence like that. (...) We're as schizophrenic as Tamriel in what we want from our leaders.


So why does the Imperial doctrine not walk the fence like that? To the Nords Akatosh apears as Alduin, a world devouring Dragon. As they proclaim that Akatosh and Allesia are the legitimate origins of the Empire they proclaim that the Empire is ruled by the blood of a monster, it almost seems like an open invitation for aggression.

So I wonder, why is the Imperial Doctrine reaching all the way back to Allesia? Tiber Septim is so much more malleable when it comes to appeasing everybody. He is a god, a dragon (god), a Nord and a Cyrodiil. His rapid conquest can be seen as proof that the gods were fighting on his side, his apotheosis would show that Divines accepted him as one of their own. His Dragon aspect can either be linked to Akatosh to legitimize him as ruler of the world or seen as the symbolic sign of the strength that allows him to rule the world like Shor.

His heirs would be the heirs of the chosen one, the living and breathing representatives of the Divine. Not only entitled to rule the world by their blessed blood but also by beeing able to wear the Amulet of Kings, the Artifact given to mark the first of the Chosen, Empress Allesia.

Posted by: B May 9 2006, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 9 2006, 01:17 PM)

I'm trying! My answer to the thread question is: it doesn't matter who wore the Amulet - or even whether it was worn - in the past, as Akatosh never made that covenant with Alessia, and so the Amulet + Emperor combo never had the power to hold shut the gates in the first place. We need to look for other ways of explaining the latter (far more interesting Nu-Hattaish ones).

Here's my contention: that if Martin had, indeed, been able to get to the Temple of the One in time and light the Dragonfires, *nothing* would have happened. The gates would have remained open, the invasion would have continued unabated, and the propaganda would have been exposed for what it was. It took Akatosh's direct intervention to save the situation, and then only at the cost of the Empire itself. I much prefer this to the propagandist's idea (c.f. Trials of St Alessia) of Akatosh somehow passively holding the gates shut and thereby tacitly buttressing the legitimacy of the Septims' claim. That's just too convenient, as it never required proof, Akatosh never needed to be witnessed actually doing anything. In fact, Akatosh doing *nothing* was far more convenient for the propagandists. Here absence of evidence really does equate to evidence of absence, for once.

That's my view. So, please shoot me down in flames.

Okay, let me get this straight: You're saying that the Gates were going to open anyway. It was just a coincidence that the Emperor was assassinated at that moment. The Amulet has NO power to hold the Gates shut at all. . .

Well, that is one way to look at it. I’ll have to think about my response and get back to you. So, you’re asking for reasons for why the Dragonfires went out and why the Gates of Oblivion opened that have nothing to do with Uriel's death, the Amulet of Kings, or Nu-Hatta. Is that correct?

Posted by: B May 9 2006, 07:52 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 9 2006, 01:29 PM)

So why does the Imperial doctrine not walk the fence like that? To the Nords Akatosh apears as Alduin, a world devouring Dragon. As they proclaim that Akatosh and Allesia are the legitimate origins of the Empire they proclaim that the Empire is ruled by the blood of a monster, it almost seems like an open invitation for aggression.

So I wonder, why is the Imperial Doctrine reaching all the way back to Allesia? Tiber Septim is so much more malleable when it comes to appeasing everybody. He is a god, a dragon (god), a Nord and a Cyrodiil. His rapid conquest can be seen as proof that the gods were fighting on his side, his apotheosis would show that Divines accepted him as one of their own. His Dragon aspect can either be linked to Akatosh to legitimize him as ruler of the world or seen as the symbolic sign of the strength that allows him to rule the world like Shor.

His heirs would be the heirs of the chosen one, the living and breathing representatives of the Divine. Not only entitled to rule the world by their blessed blood but also by beeing able to wear the Amulet of Kings, the Artifact given to mark the first of the Chosen, Empress Allesia.

I agree. If you make the pact between Akatosh and Tiber, you solve a few problems. Just link the current Septim bloodline to Tiber Septim's bloodline through solid lineage, and you're set.

But that is not what appears to have happened. Let's keep looking for clues.

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 08:07 PM

QUOTE('B')

Okay, let me get this straight: You're saying that the Gates were going to open anyway. It was just a coincidence that the Emperor was assassinated at that moment.

Yes, the time was ripe for the gates to be opened, as all of the barrier-weakening events of the recent past had reached their point of maximum influence. No, not a coincidence that he was assassinated, but a strategic decision to disorient and demoralize the enemy right before the invasion starts ('Shock and Awe' tactics). What better way to do this than by apparently confirming that the Septims were right all along, and with the last of them gone, the the Empire is therefore doomed ... wouldn't you try to assassinate Uriel, even if you thought all of the Akatosh stuff was guff?

QUOTE
The Amulet has NO power to hold the Gates shut at all. . .

Well, that is one way to look at it. I’ll have to think about my response and get back to you. So, you’re asking for reasons for why the Dragonfires went out and why the Gates of Oblivion opened that have nothing to do with Uriel's death, the Amulet of Kings, or Nu-Hatta. Is that correct?

That is my contention, except for the Nu-Hatta part. The whole tale of the Amulet and the making of the Covenant we know is already questionable, since there are at least three different versions here - Lorkhan, Akatosh, Ayleids. The Septim version is either Imperial propaganda (by definition a convenient fiction or mystification) or not (and therefore is true, or almost). But it cannot be literally true, as we've all pointed out repeatedly, because of the obvious examples from the past when the Amulet wasn't worn, or worn by the 'wrong' person. Hence this thread. The propaganda can gloss over these in the way that Tedders suggested ... mumblings about spiritual bloodline, etc. But it remains just that: propaganda, which always requires a leap of faith from those who would benefit from buying into it.

If it is propaganda, then there was no Covenant, and the Amulet was not the magical key to the gates - or at least, not in the way confected by the propagandists. It may, however, have been an Ayleid artifact of as yet unknown power - the Stone of White Gold Tower, claimed as a trophy by Alessia and the symbol of her defeat of the Ayleids, but otherwise with powers not understood by her. As for the Dragonfires - they could have been purely ceremonial as far as we know, Tamrielic versions of all of those Undying Flames that dot our world. The whole 'we know the Emperor is dead because the flames are extinguished' could just have been another mystification.

Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 08:43 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 9 2006, 07:07 PM)

If it is propaganda, then there was no Covenant, and the Amulet was not the magical key to the gates - or at least, not in the way confected by the propagandists. It may, however, have been an Ayleid artifact of as yet unknown power - the Stone of White Gold Tower. As for the Dragonfires - they could have been purely ceremonial as far as we know, Tamrielic versions of all of those Undying Flames that dot our world. The whole 'we know the Emperor is dead because the flames are extinguished' could just have been another mystification.


There is a tradition of binding the souls of the Emperors to the Amulet, adding power to the Amulet is certainly considerd to be good for something.

QUOTE(B @ May 9 2006, 06:52 PM)

I agree. If you make the pact between Akatosh and Tiber, you solve a few problems. Just link the current Septim bloodline to Tiber Septim's bloodline through solid lineage, and you're set.

But that is not what appears to have happened. Let's keep looking for clues.


It doesn't explain why the Amulet of Kings is so important, only that it has great power as all the Chosen are bound to it. Ofcourse that doesn't matter when Mehrunes Dagon is already breaking the Temple of the One open, it doesn't explain why all the gates suddenly opend and it doesn't give a reason to find the Heir and close the gates either.

So if the events ingame can only be explaind (ingame) by a propaganda piece, is it really propaganda? Then again if it is not propaganda, why is it conflicting with the most basic things in history?

So ingame we'd have to be looking for other sources that connect the Amulet to the Oblivion gates. http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/liminal_bridges.shtml would be the key. Then again how do you arive there if you don't know how to falsify Imperial propaganda?

Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 9 2006, 06:43 PM)

There is a tradition of binding the souls of the Emperors to the Amulet, adding power to the Amulet is certainly considerd to be good for something.

In the Shezzarite version of the tale, but not, it seems, in the Akatosh-based one, which makes no mention of it. Maybe because it didn't work! There's still untapped potential in this idea, though, I agree.

QUOTE
So if the events ingame can only be explaind (ingame) by a propaganda piece, is it really propaganda? Then again if it is not propaganda, why is it conflicting with the most basic things in history?

Yep, there's the rub. My answer: because Akatosh chose to make it reality at the last moment, and only in return for the sacrifice not just of Martin, but of the whole Septim Empire that depended on the lie that Akatosh chose to make into a truth. It seems a reasonable bargain to me. Haven't we seen this kind of thing before? We lie about the gods' sanctioning of our actions at our own peril, because they might just take us at our word.

QUOTE
So ingame we'd have to be looking for other sources that connect the Amulet to the Oblivion gates. http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/liminal_bridges.shtml would be the key. Then again how do you arive there if you don't know how to falsify Imperial propaganda?

So we don't have a skeptic's perspective on these events offered to us in the game. But surely the good citizens of Tamriel will have *many* questions about the Dragon statue that is suddenly cluttering up their capital city. They're already muttering "Did you see it? Can it be true? Did it really happen?" etc. It seems to me that they have just the tools needed now to falsify that propagandized past - especially since the power that maintained it is no more, and therefore not to be feared.

Liminal Bridges is an excellent source! Amulet = "pre-Mythic quasi-crystalline morpholith" that "occur only in pocket voids of Oblivion, and cannot be prospected or harvested without daedric assistance." The Ayleids trafficked with the Daedra, we know, so there wouldn't be a problem sourcing one. As for the difference between the Amulet and sigil stones, i.e. no daedric sigil, well the Amulet was never intended for "transpontine circumpenetra- tion", as far as we know.

Posted by: proweler May 9 2006, 09:25 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 9 2006, 08:14 PM)

In the Shezzarite version of the tale, but not, it seems, in the Akatosh-based one, which makes no mention of it. Maybe because it didn't work! There's still untapped potential in this idea, though, I agree.


No it's unrelated to religion.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/dragonbroke.shtml
Corax, Cyrodiil, Elder Council:

“No one understands what happened when the Selectives danced on that tower. It would be easy to dismiss the whole matter as nonsense were it not for the Amulet of Kings. Even the Elder Scrolls do not mention it -- let me correct myself, the Elder Scrolls cannot mention it. When the Moth priests attune the Scrolls to the timeless time their glyphs always disappear. The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg. Most say something in a language they can only speak sideways. The Council has collected texts and accounts from all of its provinces, and they only offer stories that never coincide, save on one point: all the folk of Tamriel during the Middle Dawn, in whatever 'when' they were caught in, tracked the fall of the eight stars. And that is how they counted their days.”


http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml
Reman (The Cyrodiil): Culture god-hero of the Second Empire, Reman was the greatest hero of the Akaviri Trouble. Indeed, he convinced the invaders to help him build his own empire, and conquered all of Tamriel except for Morrowind. He instituted the rites of becoming Emperor, which included the ritual geas to the Amulet of Kings, a soulgem of immense power. His Dynasty was ended by the Dunmeri Morag Tong at the end of the first era. Also called the Worldly God.

[Note: "nstituted" as in "formalising" not as in "creating"]



Posted by: featherbrain May 9 2006, 09:45 PM

By 'Shezzarite' I just mean shorthand for the First Era version, which those two texts already point up as contradictory. Hestra was pre-Reman, was she not? In which case, how was she bound to the Amulet. And this:

http://til.gamingsource.net/history/1.shtml:

I'd always assumed this meant that Alessia was the first to be 'bound' to the Amulet, and remembered it as a puzzling detail that seemed to contradict Reman's "ritual geas". I may have just been reading it wrong, though! More than likely.

Edit: I almost take your point about 'instituting' vs 'creating' ... seems a bit of a stretch, though.

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 01:34 AM

No, the way I see it is either what the Devs presented is what they intended to be the actual events--and they made some serious mistakes--or what was presented in the game is deliberately misleading and the ‘truth’ in buried within. Either way, all I get to use is what’s in the game. I refuse to use outside sources on this one.

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 01:52 AM

Okay, we don’t have an exact year on the so-called covenant between Akatosh and Alessia, but it is safe to say the if it did happen, it occurred before 1E 2920. The Book http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/2920.shtml is in Oblivion, and on 19 Sun's Dawn, 2920 the Daedra Prince Molag Bal made a visit to Gilverdale, Valenwood and on 12 Sun's Dusk, 2920 Mehrunes Dagon paid a visit to Mournhold, Morrowind.

So, I thought the Gates of Oblivion were sealed at that time. I don’t believe it was an ‘avatar’ of the Princes so did they not enter via a Gate?

The problem is that we don’t know anything for sure. It is possible that the Devs made a mistake and forgot that Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon took a little trip when the Gates were supposed to be closed. It's possible they entered through another doorway. It’s also possible that Carlovac Townway made the whole thing up. I do know that the Emperor hadn't been assassinated until later that year, so we can rule out the "empty throne" idea.

Edit: Well, in the second case, Dagon was summoned so we might rule that one out.

Posted by: Nalion May 10 2006, 01:56 AM

Followed the thread, there are interesting posts in there!


Forgive me for not going much into detailed backing up the following with lore sources, it's just my backdoor so I can retreat in case someone comes after me with the lore hammer... , but here are a few thoughts of mine, mostly resulting in trying to combine what we know from previous ES games with Oblivion:

A little bit of laying a foundation to my argument now: In the wake of the three major ES games until Oblivion, I see a trend. We've got the Staff of Chaos, a powerful artifact, which is supposedly lost (or destroyed). The Numidium has been rebuilt and was lost again after a mythic event called the Warp of the West. The Heart of Lorkhan has disappeared. The Tribunal, age-old powers, are gone, either dead or somewhere else. All of this happened in the last roughly 50 years. Nirn isn't exactly a peaceful place, but these events in conjunction, and in such a short time, are rather striking. In short, imho, a lot that could in theory "defend" (or form a barrier), namingly the Numidium, the Heart and the Tribunal, are gone. In my opinion (and I repeat, opinion), all these are events that "weaken barriers". It's like a city wall, the more stones, the better. We've seen these stones reduced one by one, until one last stone remained: the Emperor, a very important part of protection, but still a part.

Let me now adress the issue of the Emperor a little bit. I agree with Ted (thanks a bunch for the input here!) in a lot of points, but let me pick just some that adress the Emperor directly. The Emperor is a ruler, and a ruler has great influence on his Empire. Is the Emperor a good ruler (and also: does he know what's really going on[/i], the Empire flourishes. If the Emperor is an idiot, the land goes down the drain. There's a saying that imho relates to that: "As above, so below." In this case, I argument that the status of being the Emperor helps a lot (as said before: "l'etat, c'est moi").
I think that alone the fact of there being a legitimate Emperor (note here that the Elder Council can MAKE a legitimate Emperor, regardless of 'blood'), helps the barrier, however, the strength may vary. This is where I'd like to refer to what I said in the first paragraph. In past times, there's always been "backup powers" that could have been responsible for keeping the barriers stable. Just now we have a problem: there's no backup anymore. The Tribunal is gone, the Heart of Lorkhan is gone, other "nice things to have" are gone. Only Uriel Septim remained. And then, he was assassinated.

So far so good. In case there are still people continuing to read this post, let's have a look at the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires. They're symbols, that's for sure. They have certain powers, like the Amulet of Kings being a soulgem containing the souls of Emperors. I am certain that they are instruments to keep the barrier up, but they are closely connected to the Emperor as an entity, as introduced by Alessia in case of the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires, which seem to have been instituted by Reman. Symbols, especially in a world of magic, have real power.

Little excursion to the real world. In the age of the carolingian and merowingian kings of Europe, the rulers executed their powers by the "grace of god". (Now create a new Oblivion game and listen to what Uriel has to say: "By the grace of the Gods, I serve Tamriel as her ruler.") But these medieval kings also had insignia to demonstrate their power. Not only jewelry or the crown, but also other features. A beard and hair of head was important. There are several cases where kings were shaved (completely) and sent into monasteries to get "rid of them". There is also one case in a battle, where the right hand of a ruling king was severed. Since kings swore oaths with their right hand, they were not deemed fit to rule anymore. It was deemed a sign of god that the battle was not meant to be won by that king (forgive me that I do not quote sources, my medieval history knowledge is rusty).
Anyways, I trail off. I don't want to directly transfer the ideas of earth's middle age's conventions to TES, but I still see some kind of similarity. Mix it with a good portion of magic, and you could even work with it in TES. That's how I see the the Dragonfires and the Amulet of Kings. Powerful regalia, which, in conjunction with the Emperor, help to uphold the barriers against Oblivion. But, and this is what I want to stress a bit, while they are a very powerful, they are not the sole support of the barrier.

Now, to how Oblivion the game and imperial propaganda treat the whole issue.
I think it's quite reasonable that the Imperials make use of the institution of an Emperor with the power to keep up the barriers. "We're protecting you!", is a pretty powerful thing, especially when there's a reason to believe that it really works. That's where I'd like to disagree with Featherbrain, I think the barriers did work while the Emperor still lived and that it was because of the fact that the Dragonfires and Amulet of Kings were in the right hands (and, to explicitly say it, I admire Uriel Septim VII greatly for this. He's suffered through a lot). The opening of the Kvatch gate and the assassination of Uriel at the same time are no coincidence.
But I'm trailing off again. What I want to say is that Imperials aren't stupid, and when they're given the chance for propaganda, they use it. Look at the first Pocket Guide. Propaganda isn't even restricted to Imperials only.
"... shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction." Sounds familiar, imho. Vivec used it, too.

Thanks for the endurance so far, I'm mostly done, but I feel the need to sum the whole thing up a bit (since I don't want to write "I think" or "imho" in every sentence, please treat the following not as facts, but as my own opinion, mixed with what was said here and what lore seems to suggest to me.):
1st: The Emperor is not the only one who keeps Oblivion away, though he may arguably be the strongest.
2nd: To maintain the Emperor's part of the barrier, blood relation to Alessia, Reman or Septim is not necessarily needed (though propaganda may say otherwise to enhance legitimization). The status of the Emperor is what is important, as well as a certain personal strength of rulership.
3rd: The Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires are part of the legimitization of an Emperor, symbols of his power and tools of power by themselves.
4th: Imperials have, not entirely without reason, instrumentalized the Amulet of Kings, the Empire and all that surrounds it for their own benefit, in short, propaganda and political maneuvers.

Again, I want to say that this reflects my opinion and I mostly wrote this out of a "gut-feeling" without really delving deep into lore and quoting sources. And without cross-checking whether I make any sense. Forgive me for that. As always though, please feel free to comment on my ramblings and take it apart. Even if I might look like a fool for some time, I can learn from my mistakes.


(Annotation: in regard of emancipation and there being also strong female leaders, I want to stress that with the term "Emperor", I also include "Empresses". Thank you! )

Posted by: Sheogorath May 10 2006, 02:21 AM

QUOTE(B @ May 9 2006, 07:52 PM)

Edit: Well, in the second case, Dagon was summoned so we might rule that one out.


Bal was summoned too in the first case.


Posted by: B May 10 2006, 02:24 AM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 08:21 PM)

Bal was summoned too in the first case.

Crap! Thanks.

Posted by: Sheogorath May 10 2006, 02:26 AM

QUOTE(Nalion @ May 9 2006, 07:56 PM)

snip


Well said.

Posted by: Xanathar May 10 2006, 02:46 AM

But Azura was not summoned in the end of Morrowind and Tribunal!

Posted by: Nalion May 10 2006, 02:57 AM

QUOTE(Xanathar @ May 9 2006, 08:46 PM)

But Azura was not summoned in the end of Morrowind and Tribunal!

I'm thinking along the lines of both of these occurrences being transmissions rather than an actual presence like Mehrunes of Molag Bal was. Something perhaps along the "voice" that is speaking through a daedric statue but lesser than an actual "physical" presence. It might also have something to do that Azura was specifically involved in the occurences in Morrowind and Tribunal, so that this could have made her appearance easier.

I'm not sure anymore, but was Azura a bit translucent when she appeared or does my memory trick me in this?

Posted by: Joe4730 May 10 2006, 03:20 AM

I hear you Nalion, what gets my goat is that there wasn't another side to the story aside from the official propaganda concerning the Emperor's lineage, the amulet kings, and Oblivion in the game itself. Just as in Morrowind there was at least one different account on the true nature and history of the Tribunal, one that does not paint a very rosy picture. Unfortunately both accounts were left unresolved. Having several variations and conflicting myths in the game and debating them in the forums is much better than debating about the lack of them and retroactively fitting them into the game.

Kudos to Sheogorath for helping to fill in the blanks of course but while fun, a part of me feels like its futile when guys like Ted, MK, and Affa Mu a.k.a Doug who were instrumental in shaping the series leave and as time goes on, new devs take over and bring with them completely new ideas, for better or worse.

Anyway, I've written an alternate take on the real origin and history behind the amulet of kings as it pertains to the current line of Cyrodiilic Emperors. Its a somewhat darker version. It gives the Septim dynasty a black eye. Its not perfect and I'm sure its contains inconsistencies and contradictions:

The Sins of the Father - the success of Tiber Septim’s domination of Tamriel is owed to the pact he made with the Daedric Prince of the bloody scourge, Mehrunes Dagon. That amulet of kings is actually the shackle that binds the Septim Emperors. It is very true that the royal descendants of Tiber Septim wear the amulet of kings to protect Tamriel from the hordes of Oblivion but how this came to be was not because of a pact made thousands of years ago between the first empress Alessia and the benevolent god of men, Lorkhan in order to escape elvish tyranny. Men and elves co-existed in relative peace in ancient Cyrodiil until the arrival of the warring and expansionistic Atmoran Nords. Tiber and Mehrunes made a deal in that Mehrunes would give him the means to conquer in exchange, Mehrunes gave Tiber an amulet imbued with his blood and that of Dagon. This amulet would have to be worn at all times by Septim and his heirs. If he and all his heirs should die then Mehrunes would lay claim to his fief, the fief comprising nearly all of Tamriel. Tiber Septim, in his avarice and shortsightedness, accepted this deal. Septim’s armies came roaring out of Cyrodiil against the other nations of Tamriel. The Imperial legions were hailed as the finest fighting force in history but this was put to the absolutely ferocious and some say, demonic character of these soldiers and not so much the organizational, tactical, or logistical innovations of the legions, which were considerable but no different from that of the legions under the second era Reman dynasty.

Imperial historians praise Tiber Septim for his diplomatic skills in obtaining his ends without relying solely on warfare however history is written by the winners and most people will find it very difficult to learn of the actual details of Tiber Septim’s conquests lest they visit the poor desolate villages that had once been great cities in the provinces of Elysweyr, Valenwood, Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim, reduced to ruins long ago by the incredibly savage and brutal legionnaires. reports of survivors claimed that armies of Daedra fought among the legions or that the legionnaires appeared as half-man half-Daedra but such reports were suppressed. The troopers themselves seemed unaware of the preternatural influence among their legions. Either way, they spared no man, woman, or child of those cities that refused to yield to the will of Tiber Septim. Only Morrowind was saved from annihilation when Vivec sued for peace terms, in that Morrowind became a province of Septim’s Empire while maintaining its sovereign rights and culture.

This contract between Tiber Septim and Mehrunes Dagon was made in oath and in letter written in their commingled blood on the skin of Mehrunes’ failed churls. The provisions stipulated that Dagon and his Dremora kin would never directly interfere by killing Tiber or his heirs and claim his fief in such a backhanded manner. The laws of Oblivion bound both parties to the letter of the oath yet Mehrunes, throughout the 3rd era, has cleverly worked through human agents among his traditional worshippers and those among his more organized, fanatical, and competent cult of Mythic Dawn. Tiber Septim had underestimated the duplicitous nature of even the least sophisticated and straightforward of Daedra lords. Jagar Tharn was a Mythic Dawn cultist as well as the trusted battle mage of Uriel Septim VII, though he got too ambitious and greedy for his own good. Jagar Tharn, as a formidable wizard, was granted a very small Oblivion demesne of Mehrunes’ for his private use. Jagar Tharn deposed Uriel and imprisoned him in his own personal Oblivion dimension, so he could rule Tamriel for himself, thinking that his Daedra lord would never know that he hid the most powerful man of Tamriel in his own Oblivion dimension. It was foolish of Tharn to think he could deceive Mehrunes in his own realm. Though he worshipped Mehrunes Dagon, he valued his own power more highly and this, including his perfidy, greatly angered Mehrunes Dagon but most of all this temporarily upset his plans for his invasion of Tamriel. He couldn’t very well stage a Daedric invasion with the Septim Emperor, bearing the amulet which would act as a key to opening the trans-dimensional gates on the mundus, imprisoned in his own vassal’s Oblivion realm. The Daedra lord withdrew his support of Tharn. He allowed the eternal champion to recover the scattered pieces of the staff of chaos from Tharn’s hiding places, allowed Tharn to be killed, and the Emperor to be rescued by that same champion.

His successors knowing full well the sins of their father in common, rewrote history, endorsed the official historical myths of the connection between Lorkhan, Aedric god of men, and the Cyrodiilic emperors—playing down any notion whatsoever of the Septim Empire’s connection to the Daedric prince of destruction. This accounts perhaps of the Empire’s intolerance of Daedra worship in any form, even among Azurites, the most humane and balanced of all Daedra worshippers. This was one of the motivations for Tiber Septim’s invasion and annexation of Morrowind, a land where, despite the rule of the Tribunal Temple, Daedra worship was the most prevalent in all of Tamriel. Tiber Septim wanted to neutralize Daedra worship and particularly the Dagonites by imposing Aedric influenced Imperial cult worship on the populace, for Tiber knew quite well that Dagon could act through his mortal worshippers and agents to upset his part of the bargain by eliminating him and his dynasty. Though he was in danger of overextending himself and his legions. Vivec’s peaceful surrender on equitable terms was a godsend to Tiber Septim, so Tiber Septim’s anti-Daedra policies extended only into Hlaalu friendly Kragenmoor and Narsis, very little in the east, and none at all in Vvardenfell. Thus Tiber Septim made his Empire. Mehrunes upheld his part of the bargain and though Septim’s legions lost that unstoppable ferocity that Mehrunes’ bloodlust provided them, they were many and spread all over Tamriel, upholding the rule of the Septims for nearly 400 years. Though Tiber contented himself with the assurance that through the spread of Aedric belief and doctrine, he could suppress the antithetical worship of the lords of misrule, and deny one lord in particular, the ability to act through his traditional worshippers. However the threat of Dagon’s ambitions, as a few of Tiber’s heirs would learn, would come from unexpected corners.

Posted by: Lorus May 10 2006, 06:32 AM

Oblivion has been rather disappointing (lore-wise, gameplay wise it is amazingly fun and well done, in my opinion). I've been trying to be optimistic (not my best skill) and hope that the lack of different perspectives and the various inconsistencies is the result of the fact that its set in Cyrodiil and all of that is just the propaganda and incompetence of the in-game characters and society rather than a change in direction in the style of TES. This seems to be at least partially the case.

It's still frustrating, though, and a better job could have been done. I miss the cultural depth that there was in Morrowind. I loved how the Dunmer seemed so different, yet not unfamiliar or strange, at the same time. While waiting for Oblivion to come out I understood that obviously Cyrodiil was going to be different than Morrowind and more familiar, at least to Westerners, but just because it looks a generic fantasy setting at first it does not mean that they could not have made it culturally deep and interesting. I still expected it to be nearly as vibrant as Morrowind even if it lacked what particularly resonated with me in Morrowind.

One thing I was excited about getting to do in Oblivion was going to the Imperial City, visiting various temples, and talking to believers of the many religions, both popular and obscure, it was supposed to have. Instead, all the Temple district consists of is the Temple of the One, with no one to really talk to or anything to do in it. Occasionally an NPC will express a desire to talk to you about one of the Divines, but they won’t actually have any topic related to it. I wondered if maybe I’d even get to see people give speeches somewhere like at a Roman Forum or go see a play (remember the one you get to be a part of in Mournhold?). That couldn’t have been too hard to do with Radiant AI.

The Ayleids certainly aren’t the presence I’d hoped they would be in the game, though perhaps I’ve just missed most of the Ayleid bits. I’m certainly not too far in the game despite the fact that I’ve played quite a bit.

There certainly seems to be too much of everyone agreeing on everything and not enough political intrigue. More Imperial butt-kissing was to be expected in Oblivion, but just because Cyrodiil is the heart of the Empire does not mean we shouldn’t get to see the other sides at all. It seems way too much like it is intended for us to see the Empire as The Good Guys. They could have done more with cultural clashes between the Colovian West, Nibenean East, and other cultures from the provinces. I also expected a lot of power struggles to be going on amongst the legions, with generals trying to win the loyalty of the most troops and using this influence against the other military leaders and pretty much ignoring the Elder Council.

(Spoilers for some of the guild quests follow…)




It also seems like Bethesda pulling out a bunch of showy, impressive tricks to appease all those people clamoring for dragons to slay in the game. I mean, first you have the God/King of Worms in the Mages’ Guild quest line, a Hist Tree in the Fighters’ Guild’s, and an Elder Scroll in the Thieves’ Guild’s.

Maybe I’m just overlooking the positive elements of Oblivion lore-wise, and not giving it enough credit. After all, any game does have its elements that could be improved on, no matter how disappointing some of these may be for me. It does have things like the Arcane University, Dark Brotherhood, and the whole Mannimarco vs. Traven storyline (though Bethesda seems quick to paint the DB and Necromancers as entirely evil). Those guides to each of the cities are so rife with bias they rival the First PGE itself. There also is the one Ayleid ruin where they disturbed a shrine to Meridia, which I thought was really interesting. Maybe I’m just missing the alternate perspectives given (which wouldn’t be hard, considering how hard books are to find…) or I’m missing obvious intentional bias. *shrugs* I’m hoping this is the case, I certainly don’t think I’ve had enough time with Oblivion yet to really decide what I think about the lore-aspects.

Reading the rest of this thread is making me feel a bit better about things. It’s nice to see some debate and discussion get going in attempt to explain some of this Oblivion weirdness. Some of these ideas have definitely given me something to think about. My fears have definitely been assuaged a bit. Whether or not Bethesda didn’t do that great of a job, it’s nice to see that we can still overcome that and come up with good explanations. Many thanks to you in particular, Ted, as others have said. It’s really nice to have a dev who comes around to discuss things with us lore-lovers on his free time and tries to explain things the game doesn’t explain well enough. Plus, you’re the one who turned this thread around and got people thinking.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 8 2006, 06:17 PM)
To wrap it up.

Amulet of Kings: Elven Artifact.

First Era: Allesian Shezarrite propaganda
Second Era: Chaos
Third Era: Imperial Akatosh Propaganda

Nice to meet the enatiomorph again.

This explanation amuses me greatly. It's gets my approval.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 9 2006, 10:29 AM)
So why does the Imperial doctrine not walk the fence like that? To the Nords Akatosh apears as Alduin, a world devouring Dragon. As they proclaim that Akatosh and Allesia are the legitimate origins of the Empire they proclaim that the Empire is ruled by the blood of a monster, it almost seems like an open invitation for aggression.

Hmmm...I always got the impression that was what the Imperials were good at. Alessia did, after all, combine the Nordic and Altmeri pantheons in a way that most of her subjects were relatively pleased with. Akatosh is not Alduin, just as he is not Auriel. He is a water down version that is neither one nor the other. An Oblivion book (The Last King of the Ayleids, I think was the title), even mentions that some Ayleids remain ruling under Alessia and her descendants. I can't imagine she offended them too greatly.

So far the Imperials are the only ones with a culture that has blended the hard-line Atmoran and Aldmeri views about the world. This ability of them to do this is what I think explains why the Imperials have been so successful. The conflict and contradiction between these two main views of the various peoples of Nirn is what shapes nearly all the conflict that takes place in the Arena. If you can minimize that, then you're in pretty good shape.

Posted by: drucifer4 May 10 2006, 10:04 AM

Somehow I keep thinking that the Towers and stones are in some large part a key to all this... I'm currently trying to formulate my own conjecture with this... I'm thinking that while it does reek of Imperial propaganda, maybe there is some fact in there. Possibly Chim-el Adabal was just a powerful soul gem used as an heirloom of the Alessian and Reman empires, up until Tiber Septim (aspect of Lorkhan) came into possession of it. The rest i'm still working on. it's like 4 am where i'm at, i'll come back after i've gotten some sleep and i'll try to elaborate further.

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 12:02 PM

QUOTE(Sheogorath @ May 9 2006, 08:21 PM)

Bal was summoned too in the first case.

QUOTE(Xanathar @ May 9 2006, 08:46 PM)

But Azura was not summoned in the end of Morrowind and Tribunal!

In either case, at least we know that the barrier can be circumvented by a Prince when he is summoned. In both of the instances in 2920, a Prince was able to come through and wreck havoc on the Mundus simply because he was called. So much for a strong barrier protecting Tamriel.

QUOTE(Joe4730 @ May 9 2006, 09:20 PM)

I hear you Nalion, what gets my goat is that there wasn't another side to the story aside from the official propaganda concerning the Emperor's lineage, the amulet kings, and Oblivion in the game itself. Just as in Morrowind there was at least one different account on the true nature and history of the Tribunal, one that does not paint a very rosy picture. Unfortunately both accounts were left unresolved. Having several variations and conflicting myths in the game and debating them in the forums is much better than debating about the lack of them and retroactively fitting them into the game.

This is my concern also. I know we can come up with something, but what about the people who are playing Oblivion and have little to no idea what is going on in the game? They come here and ask, "Hey, what's going on with the main quest. . ." And all we have for them is that it is all propaganda. The only way for us to explain it all is by speculating with unofficial sources and past games. If I find those answers overwhelming myself, I wonder what a new person will think?

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 01:52 PM

A case in point is the conversation I had this morning with a guy I work with. I knew he had been playing Oblivion, so I asked him to explain what he thought about the Amulet of Kings, Uriel’s assassination, and the ending to the game.

He said, “The Emperor was assassinated, and no one with Dragon blood was on the throne. The Dragonfires went out, and the Gates to Oblivion began to open. In the end, Martin had Akatosh blood in him--blood of the Dragon--and he was able to use the Amulet of Kings to become Akatosh, becoming his Dragon avatar. Akatosh, through Martin, defeated Mehrunes Dagon.”

I began telling him some of the issues I had with that story, and his reply was, “Really? I still liked the game.” What a perfect Imperial he would make!

I left that conversation feeling a little sad, but then it dawned on me: Was he really wrong? Isn’t that exactly what the game presented to us?

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am making too much of all this. I guess ignorance truly is bliss.

Posted by: Shardie May 10 2006, 02:16 PM

Was he really wrong?

Perhaps the whole shezzite argument, was the propaganda?

But Im just being argumentitive. The game sure was presented portraying Akatosh as the creater, and there is no way that could be interpreted otherwise. My hirachy of lore is thus

Oblivion Lore > Old Lore > Lore from not within the game > pure theory.
Different designers, different lore.

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 02:56 PM

QUOTE(Shardie @ May 10 2006, 08:16 AM)

Was he really wrong?

Perhaps the whole shezzite argument, was the propaganda?

But Im just being argumentitive. The game sure was presented portraying Akatosh as the creater, and there is no way that could be interpreted otherwise. My hirachy of lore is thus

Oblivion Lore > Old Lore > Lore from not within the game > pure theory.
Different designers, different lore.

I am inclined to believe some of that too, Shardie.

Posted by: Flannigus May 10 2006, 04:53 PM

QUOTE

I am inclined to believe some of that too, Shardie.


Warning: post becomes rambling and heart-pouring in nature.

As much as I loved Morrowind and it's complex, ambiguous story, a lot of casual gamers didn't. I've heard, from countless players/critics, "Morrowind was an awesome game, but the main story was boring/cliche/hard to get into or follow." While I believe these opinions are symptoms of deficiency in character, they're fairly widespread. I blame people's inability to appreciate the exotic setting, the esoteria required to understand the deeper aspects of what's going on, the slow-to-build pacing, and the truly genius metaphysical epic that Bethsoft created. It seems like with OB, Bethsoft decided to make the main story focused, tight, clear-cut, fast-paced and exciting. They also made it much less ambiguous. I'm sure you've all read reviews that say "Oblivion is basically Tamriel's version of hell." Even so, you can [in-game] read books castigating you to not think of daedra as "demons," and you can interact with other daedra princes of varying and ambiguous morality. As a bonus to us lore nerds, we can fit the game's story into established lore, deconstruct every honey-drenched word from MK's OB-related writings, create new and fascinating theories tying together modern lore and TP-era lore, or debate about what dragon god did this, and what trickster/lunar/champion-of-men god did that.

Addendum: I actually thought that MK had left Bethsoft entirely after Morrowind. I was expecting the game to be completely bereft of secret glyphs and dreamsleeves, but was pleasantly surprised to find in-game MK books and dialogue, as part of the main quest no less. That, and the Nu-Mantia intercepts get me by. And then I realize that even though there seems to be some streamlining of the lore, the devs at Bethsoft still know how to create better and more realistic quests, NPCs, cities, books, and storylines than any other RPG makers (imho). I mean, Fable???

As long as most MK/TP lore remains canon, and as long as they grace us with their presence here (through fiction and non-fiction posts), I AM COMPLETE.


Posted by: B May 10 2006, 06:26 PM

This book will be added to the Library soon, but here it is right now. It might help us a bit.

REMANADA


Chapter 1: SANCRE TOR AND THE BIRTH OF REMAN

And in those days the empire of the Cyrodiils was dead, save in memory only, for through war and slug famine and iniquitous rulers, the west split from the east and Colovia's estrangment lasted some four hundreds of years. And the earth was sick with this sundering. Once-worthy western kings, of Anvil and Sarchal, of Falkreath and Delodiil, became through pride and habit as like thief-barons and forgot covenant. In the heartland things were no better, as arcanists and false moth-princes lay in drugged stupor or the studies of vileness and no one sat on the Throne in dusted generations. Snakes and the warnings of snakes went unheeded and the land bled with ghosts and deepset holes unto cold harbors. It is said that even the Chim-el Adabal, the amulet of the kings of glory, had been lost and its people saw no reason to find it.

And it was in this darkness that King Hrol set out from the lands beyond lost Twil with a sortie of questing knights numbered eighteen less one, all of them western sons and daughters. For Hrol had seen in his visions the snakes to come and sought to heal all the borders of his forebears. And to this host appeared at last a spirit who resembled none other than El-Estia, queen of ancienttimes, who bore in her left hand the dragonfire of the aka-tosh and in her right hand the jewels of the covenant and on her breast a wound that spilt void onto her mangled feet. And seeing El-Estia and Chim-el Adabal, Hrol and his knights wailed and set to their knees and prayed for all things to become as right. Unto them the spirit said, I am the healer of all men and the mother of dragons, but as you have run so many times from me so shall I run until you learn my pain, which renders you and all this land dead.

And the spirit fled from them, and they split among hills and forests to find her, all grieving that they had become a villainous people. Hrol and his shieldthane were the only ones to find her, and the king spoke to her, saying, I love you sweet Aless, sweet wife of Shor and of Auri-el and the Sacred Bull, and would render this land alive again, not through pain but through a return to the dragon-fires of covenant, to join east and west and throw off all ruin. And the shieldthane bore witness to the spirit opening naked to his king, carving on a nearby rock the words AND HROL DID LOVE UNTO A HILLOCK before dying in the sight of their union.

When the fifteen other knights found King Hrol, they saw him dead after his labors against a mound of mud. And they parted each in their way, and some went mad, and the two that returned to their homeland beyond Twil would say nothing of Hrol, and acted ashamed for him.

But after nine months that mound of mud became as a small mountain, and there were whispers among the shepherds and bulls. A small community of believers gathered around that growing hill during the days of its first churning, and they were the first to name it the Golden Hill, Sancre Tor. And it was the shepherdess Sed-Yenna who dared climb the hill when she heard his first cry, and at its peak she saw what it had yielded, an infant she named Reman, which is "Light of Man."

And in the child's forehead was the Chim-el Adabal, alive with the dragon-fires of yore and divine promise, and none dared obstruct Sed-Yenna when she climbed the steps of White-Gold Tower to place the babe Reman on his Throne, where he spoke as an adult, saying I AM CYRODIIL COME.

Chapter 2: THE CHEVALIER RENALD, BLADE OF THE PIG

And in the days of interregnum, the Chim-el Adabal was lost again amid the petty wars of gone-heathen kings. West and east knew no union then and all the lands outside of them saw Cyrodiil as a nest of snakemen and snakes. And for four more hundreds of years did the seat of Reman stay sundered, with only the machinations of a group of loyal knights keeping all its borders from throwing wide.

These loyal knights did go by no name then, but were known by their eastern swords and painted eyes, and it was whispered that they were descended from the bodyguard of old Reman. One of their number, called the Chevalier Renald, discovered the prowess of Cuhlecain and then supported him towards the throne. Only later would it be revealed that Renald did this thing to come closer to Talos, anon Stormcrown, the glorious yet-emperor Tiber Septim; only later still, that he was under instruction by a pig.

Long glory was wife to the all the knights of the dragon-banner, who knew no other and were brothers before beyond many seas and now were brothers under the law named the blade-surrender of Pale Pass. And having vampire blood these brother-knights lived for ages through and past Reman and then kept guard over his ward, the coiled king, Versidue-Shaie. The snake-captain Vershu became Renald became the protector of the northern west when the black dart was hooked into Savirien-Chorak.

[Here torn pages indicate that the rest of this ancient book has been lost.]

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 07:17 PM

So, according to REMANADA, Alessia was the wife to Shor, Auri-el, and Belharza.

Alessia and King Hrol. . . umm. . . mated, and Reman was born; therefore, it appears that Alessia's blood flowed in the Reman line.

Posted by: proweler May 10 2006, 07:23 PM

QUOTE(B @ May 10 2006, 12:52 PM)

I left that conversation feeling a little sad, but then it dawned on me: Was he really wrong? Isn’t that exactly what the game presented to us?


I tried the same thing and he friend told me the same things. So yes, that is what the game is telling us.

(He did however notice Mankar Camoran wearing the Amulet of Kings. So I told him about history, that there was no blood relation. Gave him a link to TIL and the PGE and told him to read about the Arcturian Heresy. He's been reading all afternoon now.)

QUOTE(Shardie @ May 10 2006, 01:16 PM)

The game sure was presented portraying Akatosh as the creater, and there is no way that could be interpreted otherwise.


Yes, but for what reason? Pesimism won't do, atleast not for me because that steers me into the "Beth are Lazy" bush. Mankar's rant didn't seem verry revolutionary to us. He's telling all the obvious stuff. So rather then placing Red-tape markers in Lore, it would be good to take a few steps back, all the way up to source material.

----

Conflict is the basis of Lore.

Mankar Rant vs the Lore of Cyrodiil.

When Mankar tells us the all Myths are wrong because they villefy Lorkhan, he is right. Atleast under B's assumption of limited knowledge, there are plenty of Nordic-Breton myths in which Lorkhan is glorified. The only monomyth in game is the Anuad, the Altmeri perspective on the creation of the world. To them the world is a trap, their gods punished Lorkhan and took his Heart out - suggesting they killed him. Mankar says that Lorkhan is alive, this is true again - Lorkhan is separated from his divine center, sometimes involuntarily, and wanders the creation of the et'Ada. - http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml. Mankar then proceeds to say that Nirn is a prison [typicall Altmeri view] and that he is here to liberate us mortals - we've all seen what that means.


Now this important. To create the conflict we all love, Akatosh has to apear as the undoubtable good guy of the Empire.

So if we aren't Nirn's prisoners, who is? Mankar suggests it is Lorkhan. So who was Lorkhan? This qeustion can not be awnserd under B's assumption of limited knowledge. [Because of the opposing views] this qeustion can not even be fully awnserd with full knowledge.

The source of Lore is our world. It's myths, religions and philosophy have all been used to craft it. [To me] the most recoqnizeable elements are Greek philsophy (Heraclitus, the flux and fire), Gnosticism and Alchemy.

The Wheel for example, a model of the universe taught by Vivec and studied by the scholars of the http://www.whirlingschool.net/index.html, is a derivative of the http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsgnostic.htm. Lorkhan became the serpent in the center of the world and the eight spokes became the Aedra.

There also is the http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsserpentcross.htm, used by Alchemist as a symbol of overcoming one's base or materially inclined nature. The Serpent is Lorkhan, Mundus is his attempt at overcomming his own destructive nature and return to the flux without destroying himselves. It is also the gnostic symbol of the Messia, the Savior, Jesus, Christ, nailed to the cross. Lorkhan, the Serpent, nailed to the cross.

There also is the http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefscrosslorraine.htm, used by alchemists of the Renaissance used the emblem as a symbol of earth and spirit by combining the square earth cross with the cross of Christ. When drawn symmetrically, it symbolised the hermetic maxim, "As above, so below." [the famous words of Manimacro!]. This cross is also know as the magical cross of intergration [from the sermons], the cross is Mundus.

Lorkhan the Mesiah is nailed to the cross of Mundus.


Lorkhan came to the universe with an ideal. He spoke to the Aedra and the Aedra became his followers. Together the crafted plans to make these ideals come true. But then, when the Aedra came closer to his ideal they realised it's true nature. It was Lorkhan's ideal world, not their own. Understandably they left Lorkhan's cult. Those that did not leave, turned against Lorkhan, they trapped him in his own world.

The Red-Tower was made to keep Mundus together and by keeping Mundus together Lorkhan would never die the death of the Padomaniacs and reform himselves. The Towers build by the Altmer had a similair function, except they were intended to retain Magic [and thus keep the world together].

Think of Mundus as fortress, it can be your defence but it can also be a trap.


This is why Wulfheart apeard at the Ghostgate.



This so that Lorkhan may qeustion his position and call him his betrayer. Akatosh was one of Lorkhan's followers, but he betrayed him halfway. He set himselves up as the King of the world, first with Auriel and soon after with the Septims.

Of course Lorkhan was no better then Akatosh, he tricked him in the first place, but only because Akatosh, by becomming immortal was about to destroy him. Although if Akatosh didn't become immortal, he'd be death.

So we are back at the start of the [lore of the] series. http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtml of Daggerfall. "Tamriel was chosen as a battleground by two -- things. "

----

B, Shardie, thanks for beeing so persistant. It [atleast] makes sense to me now.

----

QUOTE(B @ May 10 2006, 06:17 PM)

So, according to REMANADA, Alessia was the wife to Shor, Auri-el, and Belharza.

Alessia and King Hrol. . . umm. . . mated, and Reman was born; therefore, it appears that Alessia's blood flowed in the Reman line.


That'd be the ghost of Alessia and King Hrol.

Alessia is Mara. She was the lover of both Shor and Auri-el aswell, Love and the Enantiomorph....

http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

---

But I still don't know if the Dragon was Akatosh trying to stop Lorkhan from breaking free, or Lorkhan trying to avoid been taken over by another Prince.

----

No you can't find this ingame. Tamriel > Obscure Text > Game Lore > Lore forum

Posted by: Flannigus May 10 2006, 07:29 PM

Well said Proweler.

QUOTE

This book will be added to the Library soon, but here it is right now. It might help us a bit.


I can't believe I didn't get around to reading this in-game. First thoughts: seems like this could be used to defend the snake-men as metaphor/superstition theory. Also considering that Renald is spoken of as being a snake captain and what sounds like a more conventional Imperial Joe.

I like the idea of all this confusion as to what Akavir really is, and what Akavir really are. If ESV really is ESV: Akavir, then I'm sure the devs will have even more debates over what that really means.

Posted by: vaanic~one May 10 2006, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 05:23 PM)

<Uber-Snip>


Wow! That was a very enlightening post, Proweler, thanks!

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 07:46 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 01:23 PM)

Lorkhan the Mesiah is nailed to the cross of Mundus.

Lorkhan is a Christ-figure, and the eight et’Ada who followed him were his 'Apostles.'

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 01:23 PM)

Alessia is Mara. She was the lover of both Shor and Auri-el aswell, Love and the Enantiomorph....

http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

I don't know if I'm willing to go there yet.

Posted by: proweler May 10 2006, 07:54 PM

QUOTE(vaanic~one @ May 10 2006, 06:32 PM)

Wow! That was a very enlightening post, Proweler, thanks!


Thanks and now I feel bad for spoiling it all. Although:

Easy to think you understand something if you never try to explain it to others. ~ http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301149&st;=0&p;=5296223&#entry5296223

and:

"Knowledge is truly precious--like gold, diamonds and jewelry. But some seek to amass it all for themselves! When it is taken and shared with others, they are afraid. Afraid of what might be learned."~ http://til.gamingsource.net/jobasha/sermon0revealed.shtml

So I hope somebody proves me wrong.

QUOTE(B @ May 10 2006, 06:46 PM)

Lorkhan is a Christ-figure, and the eight et’Ada who followed him were his 'Apostles.'



They can't be his Apostles, they never naild him to the cross. They can't be the Priest who wanted him death either. I think they were the common people, those who freed a murderer so they could put Jezus on the cross.

Trinimac would be Pilatus, he was the one who put Lorkhan down - he and his people fell in 'obscurity' soon after, just like the Romans.

But frankly, I don't think it works the otherway around.

QUOTE
I don't know if I'm willing to go there yet.


It's crap for factuallity but quite nice when talking about the 'mechanics of Lore'.

Posted by: B May 10 2006, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 01:54 PM)

They can't be his Apostles, they never naild him to the cross. They can't be the Priest who wanted him death either. I think they were the common people, those who freed a murderer so they could put Jezus on the cross.

Trinimac would be Pilatus, he was the one who put Lorkhan down - he and his people fell in 'obscurity' soon after, just like the Romans.

But frankly, I don't think it works the otherway around.
It's crap for factuallity but quite nice when talking about the 'mechanics of Lore'.

You were too literal with my reference.

Posted by: featherbrain May 10 2006, 08:02 PM

QUOTE(Shardie @ May 10 2006, 12:16 PM)

The game sure was presented portraying Akatosh as the creater, and there is no way that could be interpreted otherwise.

I've obviously failed miserably.

Still, I've been thinking about these questions all day at work, and by the looks of things so have plenty of other people, too. That's good enough for me - compared with the despondency of recent weeks.


Posted by: proweler May 10 2006, 08:04 PM

QUOTE(B @ May 10 2006, 07:01 PM)

You were too literal with my reference.


Aah. My mistake then, I had stuff like that already going through my head before you posted.


Posted by: B May 10 2006, 08:13 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 02:04 PM)

Aah. My mistake then, I had stuff like that already going through my head before you posted.

In my words, "Apostle" (with "s) means an actual Apostle of Jesus. 'Apostle' (with 's) means a more figurative apostle, which by definition means "A passionate adherent; a strong supporter." The Aedra were this to Lorkhan until they 'betrayed' him. They betrayed him in some people's eyes.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 01:54 PM)

It's crap for factuallity but quite nice when talking about the 'mechanics of Lore'.

It has promise. If Alessia is Mara, then you have to explain Mara's soul in the Amulet of Kings. If you link Lorkhan to the Enantiomorph, I assume you place him with Talos; Akatosh you would have to attach to Zurin Arctus then. If your theory is to hold, you must continue to explore the ramifications.

Posted by: featherbrain May 10 2006, 08:23 PM

QUOTE(Nalion @ May 9 2006, 11:56 PM)

1st: The Emperor is not the only one who keeps Oblivion away, though he may arguably be the strongest.
2nd: To maintain the Emperor's part of the barrier, blood relation to Alessia, Reman or Septim is not necessarily needed (though propaganda may say otherwise to enhance legitimization). The status of the Emperor is what is important, as well as a certain personal strength of rulership.
3rd: The Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires are part of the legimitization of an Emperor, symbols of his power and tools of power by themselves.
4th: Imperials have, not entirely without reason, instrumentalized the Amulet of Kings, the Empire and all that surrounds it for their own benefit, in short, propaganda and political maneuvers.

Hey, that's a nice chain of reasoning, Nalion, I like it. I'm wondering: how do you define the 'status' or 'strength' of the Emperor - is it a qualitative thing in your mind?

QUOTE(Joe4730 @ May 10 2006, 01:20 AM)

The Sins of the Father - the success of Tiber Septim’s domination of Tamriel is owed to the pact he made with the Daedric Prince of the bloody scourge, Mehrunes Dagon.

And that's a great counter-narrative, I'm going to pretend that I read that in an OB book and that the pamphleteers are already starting to pick apart the carcass of the Septim Empire ...

QUOTE(drucifer4 @ May 10 2006, 08:04 AM)

Somehow I keep thinking that the Towers and stones are in some large part a key to all this... I'm currently trying to formulate my own conjecture with this... I'm thinking that while it does reek of Imperial propaganda, maybe there is some fact in there.

Cool, look forward to reading more.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 05:54 PM)

Easy to think you understand something if you never try to explain it to others. ~ http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301149&st;=0&p;=5296223&#entry5296223

Lol, is that an in-game source?

But fascinating and enlightening stuff as ever, proweler. So: any thoughts on how it serves Akatosh (or any other power, for that matter) for the Empire to be left secure (gates sealed) but with the 'joined' bloodline ended (in principle and in fact) and the throne left empty? This is one of those 'facts before our eyes' that I really think needs exploring further.

QUOTE
So I hope somebody proves me wrong.

That would take a braver man than me!

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be. Time for cake, methinks.

Posted by: proweler May 10 2006, 08:45 PM

QUOTE(B @ May 10 2006 07:13 PM)

In my words, "Apostle" (with "s) means an actual Apostle of Jesus. 'Apostle' (with 's) means a more figurative apostle, which by definition means "A passionate adherent; a strong supporter." The Aedra were this to Lorkhan until they 'betrayed' him. They betrayed him in some people's eyes.


Aah. I supose that works.

QUOTE
It has promise. If Alessia is Mara, then you have to explain Mara's soul in the Amulet of Kings. If you link Lorkhan to the Enantiomorph, I assume you place him with Tiber Septim; Akatosh you would have to attach to Zurin Arctus then. If your theory is to hold, you must continue to explore the ramifications.


It's more symbolic. Love keeps the Enatiomorph together. Mara loves both Lorkhan and Akatosh. Allesia brought the religion of Man and Mer together, but I don't know how the Amulet of Kings kept Reman and Versidue-Shaie together, I don't know why Tiber, Arctus and Wulfheart stayed together, I don't know why Uriel and Ocato stuck together.

Love? The Amulet of Kings? Friendship and trust perhaps. I really don't know.

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 10 2006, 07:23 PM)

But fascinating and enlightening stuff as ever, proweler. So: any thoughts on how it serves Akatosh (or any other power, for that matter) for the Empire to be left secure (gates sealed) but with the 'joined' bloodline ended (in principle and in fact) and the throne left empty? This is one of those 'facts before our eyes' that I really think needs exploring further.


As the original story suggest: Eventually the world will fall apart and Lorkhan will be free again, he will rise up to CHIM and everything starts anew. It'd be the ultimate and most elaborate "Game Over".

But that's not for now, Mundus is shaped like the Aurbis, it's a constant flux. Sometimes it will be split in two with chaos in the edges, sometimes it will be united with chaos everywhere.

Posted by: Fishy May 11 2006, 12:17 AM

So isn't it possible that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same being? I mean there seems to be plenty of evidence for something like that, although there probably is a lot to destroy the argument as well... But if the are the same that would explain quite a few things about this whole amulet of kings stuff.

Posted by: proweler May 11 2006, 12:41 AM

QUOTE(Fishy @ May 10 2006, 11:17 PM)

So isn't it possible that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same being? I mean there seems to be plenty of evidence for something like that, although there probably is a lot to destroy the argument as well... But if the are the same that would explain quite a few things about this whole amulet of kings stuff.


Shor and Auri-el can be seen as parts of the Enantiomorph, yes.

Posted by: B May 11 2006, 01:48 AM

QUOTE(Fishy @ May 10 2006, 06:17 PM)

So isn't it possible that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same being? I mean there seems to be plenty of evidence for something like that, although there probably is a lot to destroy the argument as well... But if the are the same that would explain quite a few things about this whole amulet of kings stuff.

In every case I could find in lore they are described as two separate beings. They could have been joined as one at one time. I don't know.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 10 2006, 06:41 PM)

Shor and Auri-el can be seen as parts of the Enantiomorph, yes.

Could I have a source please?

Posted by: Nalion May 11 2006, 01:57 AM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 10 2006, 02:23 PM)

Hey, that's a nice chain of reasoning, Nalion, I like it. I'm wondering: how do you define the 'status' or 'strength' of the Emperor - is it a qualitative thing in your mind?

It's a quality.
Let me take up my medieval example once more: when the king lost his head hair or his hand, he lost a quality, too, in the eyes of his followers: the quality to rule. Guess then it was time to find another who was believed to have that quality, right? Apply to TES lore as you wish.


Allie mentioned another thing to me...:
"For thirty-eight years, the Emperor Tiber reigned supreme. It was a lawful, pious, and glorious age, when justice was known to one and all, from serf to sovereign. On Tiber's death, it rained for an entire fortnight as if the land of Tamriel itself was weeping.

The Emperor's grandson, Pelagius, came to the throne. Though his reign was short, he was as strong and resolute as his father had been, and Tamriel could have enjoyed a continuation of the Golden Age. Alas, an unknown enemy of the Septim Family hired that accursed organization of cutthroats, the Dark Brotherhood, to kill the Emperor Pelagius I as he knelt at prayer at the Temple of the One in the Imperial City. Pelagius I's reign lasted less than three years.

Pelagius had no living children, so the Crown Imperial passed to his first cousin, the daughter of Tiber's brother Agnorith. Kintyra, former Queen of Silvenar, assumed the throne as Kintyra I. Her reign was blessed with prosperity and good harvests, and she herself was an avid patroness of art, music, and dance."

- http://www.til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/brief_history_of_empire.shtml (emphasis mine)
So much for a direct "bloodline" to Tiber Septim himself. Must be something else there, then. A quality, perhaps? Acceptance?

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 11 2006, 02:42 AM

getting back to the Enantiomorph's, if Aakatosh is the aedra of time, and also one side of the coin, and the other Shor..

then shouldn't Shor be incharge of..anti-time?

Posted by: Ysmir The Underking May 11 2006, 10:10 AM

Or is the "time" aspect of Akatosh not really..important?

Posted by: Crevyn May 11 2006, 11:07 AM

If I understand correctly, the barrier between Oblivion and Mundus is powered by towers, and their stones. Is it known how many towers and stones have been made?

I only know of a few, but there are some questions that come up in my mind concerning these towers.

The zero stone (most powerful?) is in the Adamantium tower, right? The first stone was Lorkhan's heart in Red mountain. These are the towers built by the Aedra, I suppose.

There were others towers built, by the Aldmer. What I've been wondering is, do these towers also support the barrier between Oblivion and Mundus, or not? I thought the Ayleids built White-Gold tower, and that the Amulet of Kings is its stone. But does this tower even support the barrier? From what I've read, I can't conclude the Ayleids built that tower to protect the Mundus, or support the barrier in any way. I don't know what they were trying to achieve by building it. Or did they simply build the tower, and did an Aedra give it a stone (the Amulet of Kigns), thus using it as an extra source of power for the barrier?

In Nu-mantia intercept, it is said the these towers 'mold creation'. I was wondering what this meant, and what could be done with these towers/stones. Did the Aldmer/Ayleids build other towers to channel power from Oblivion/Aetherius? Or did they act on orders of the Aedra? Did they simply want to copy the Aedra, and therefore built similar towers? Did they even know the stones the Aedra placed powered the barrier?

There are so many questions I can't answer by myself, so it is very difficult for me to think of any plausible theory that would explain anything. I just wondered if the Amulet of Kings was that important at all. If it is a stone of an Ayleid tower, a tower which I am not certain whether it powers the barrier or not, why would it be so important?

Disclaimer: I am gaining more knowledge about the lore every day, but I'm not even close to the level some of you have, so I might have said some stupid things. Please ignore anything I have posted that is utterly wrong, or even better: explain why it is wrong, so I can learn some more

Posted by: Fishy May 11 2006, 12:06 PM

QUOTE(B @ May 11 2006, 12:48 AM)

In every case I could find in lore they are described as two separate beings. They could have been joined as one at one time. I don't know.
Could I have a source please?


Just look at the times they are seen doing the same things or impacting the same things, the amulet of kings is just one prime example of this all. The Nu mantia intercept mentions there are no elven and human ancestors but that they all spawn from the same source, now if Lorkahn created man and Akatosh created mer, couldn't that just be a choice to see it like they want to see it? That they are the same thing? Kinda like god and Allah for instance (they are often believed to be same thing by religious people who studied it). Just different story's told by different people. It would explain all the things where Akatosh replaces Lorkhan, the dragon blood and being an avatar of Lorkhan at the same time...

Posted by: Gez May 11 2006, 01:56 PM

I believe there are nine towers, for the Ayleids built eight smaller towers around the White-Gold one so that the WGT would influence, by sympathetic magic, the other towers.

As for the towers, those I know are:
1. Adamantium Tower in High Rock.
2. Crystal Tower on the Sumurset Isle (whatever spelling you go with, it never stayed the same twice in a row).
3. White Gold Tower in Cyrodiil
4. Red Tower in Morrowind (the Vvardenfell volcano, Red Mountain)
5. Walk-Brass (presumably the Numidium itself), which may be anywhere.
6. Snow-Throat, aka the Throat of the World, in Skyrim.

Those I know exist but am not sure what they correspond to:
7. Green-Sap Tower -- Presumably in Valenwood. But what?
8. Orichalc Tower -- No idea where it is.

Alternatively, Arena may be a hint. The Staff of Chaos was disseminated in several dungeons, some of which were known towers (Crystal Tower, Dagoth Ur), while other weren't (Crypt of Heart, Murkwood). The nine locations were Imperial Prison (Cyrodiil), Fang Lair (Hammerfell), Labyrinthian (Skyrim), Elden Grove (Valenwood), Halls of Colossus (Elsweyr), Crystal Tower (Sumurset), Crypt of Hearts (High Rock), Murkwood (Black Marsh), Dagoth Ur (Morrowind), and the Imperial Palace (Cyrodiil again), the starting place.

I suppose there is one tower in each province. Of the http://til.gamingsource.net/places/index.shtml that are not already known as Towers, only Fang Lair could be a Tower.

Posted by: B May 11 2006, 02:56 PM

QUOTE(Fishy @ May 11 2006, 06:06 AM)

Just look at the times they are seen doing the same things or impacting the same things, the amulet of kings is just one prime example of this all. The Nu mantia intercept mentions there are no elven and human ancestors but that they all spawn from the same source, now if Lorkahn created man and Akatosh created mer, couldn't that just be a choice to see it like they want to see it? That they are the same thing? Kinda like god and Allah for instance (they are often believed to be same thing by religious people who studied it). Just different story's told by different people. It would explain all the things where Akatosh replaces Lorkhan, the dragon blood and being an avatar of Lorkhan at the same time...

I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe that to be the case at all. You'll have to give me more than the Amulet of Kings and the Nu-Mantia Intercept as proof. The Nu-Mantia Intercept is a questionable source, and everything I've read in Oblivion so far explains how both Akatosh and Lorkhan could have a hand in the Amulet of Kings.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just need more than what you've given me.

Posted by: Fishy May 11 2006, 05:06 PM

Besides circumstancial evidence there isn't really a lot, i'll go check Til for some stuff later... But I doubt i'll find anything concrete

Posted by: proweler May 11 2006, 08:46 PM

Since either Akatosh or Lorkhan was invovled in the creation of the Amulet of Kings. Since both were the populair deity of their time, I would say that neither made the Amulet of Kings. The Imperials are merely atributing something complex to their most favorit god.

Martin became the Avatar of Akatosh, or a Dragon. Currently there are two Dragons in the Imperial Phanteon, Akatosh the Dragongod of Time and Talos the Dragon Born.
The interesting thing about Dragons is that they both create and destroy. Alduin, Satakal and Mundus are all Dragon shaped. The incredible thing is that the Dragon born also excists in the Monomyth. "Heart of the World", "Satakal the world Skin", "Sithis" and "The seven fights" all mention how Lorkhan was formed inreaction to the excistance of Auri-el. The Psijic on the other hand say that Auriel was made in reaction of Padomay, they say that Auriel is also a Dragonborn.

Since the Dragon represents the constant flux of the universe and both Auriel and Lorkhan were made from this flux, both are Dragonborn but neither are Dragon. To the Altmer who thought Lorkhan was death Auriel was the Dragongod, the Nords who saw Auriel as their opponent and destroyer he became merged with the Dragon who destroyed the world. To the Yokudans who never were involved in the conflict, the Dragon and Dragonborns all stayed seperate.

http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/anuad_paraphrased.shtml

Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever.

The blood of Padomay became the Daedra. The blood of Anu became the stars. The mingled blood of both became the Aedra


While neither are named, this is the last fight between Shor and Auri-el. After it the convention happend, Auri-el left Mundus and Lorkhan was mostly dead - without his heart he reformed as Sheogorath. What was left of the Aedra and Elhnofey in Mundus (the blood) formed the new gods.

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtml
"The gods have an unusual origin, if some of the oldest tales are true. The oldest inhabitants of this world -- no one seems to be sure what race they were -- had a system of myths that they believed in for a thousand years. The people of et'Ada believed for so long and so well, that their beliefs may, just may, have drawn upon the energies surrounding Tamriel to bring the gods themselves into being. If that is so, the conflict between the Light and the Dark provided the energy, and the et'Adans the structure, that created the gods of Tamriel.


The light and the dark describes it in a different way. When the et'ada left the people on the world still rememberd their old gods and they took shape.

Another way to explain it would be by realising that an et'Ada is his own realm. The parts that made mundus still have the identity of the et'Ada they were part off.

This is why the gods are seen as death, ascended and alive. What matters is that like the Aurbis Dragon, the Mundus Dragon made it's own gods, it gave birth to it's own Dragonborns.

Another interesting thing about the Dragonborns is that they can never be seen alone. When there is Magic there will be Void, when there is Lorkhan there will be Auri-el, when there is Adamantine-Tower there will a Red-Tower. They are enantiomorph's afterall.

Martin was a heir to Talos and a priest of Akatosh. Much the same relation as Allesia, she was a lover of both Akatosh (priestes) and Lorkhan (her demigod), and just like Mara. (As a side note: The Nir of the Anuad is also seen as Mara.) Talos had the same deal, he was a Breton/Nord/Colovian Tiber Septim (Shor) and an Nibense Zurin Arctus (Akatosh).

So when Martin became a Dragon nothing happend special happend. The enantiomorph had always been a Dragon. He was however seen by the common populance as Akatosh, yet the blades say he Talos. Again, the Dragon split in both his Dragonborns.

There is so much emphasis on Akatosh beeing the savior of the world because Mankar had to tell an interesting story as I explaind before.

edit:

Dragon = Mundus = Anu + Padomay = Aurbis = Man + Mer = Breton
Talos = Shor + Dragon = Ysmir + Tiber
Akatosh = Auriel + Dragon
Martin = Dragon + Auriel + Shor = Akatosh + Shor = Talos + Auriel = Ysmir + Tiber + Zurin = Enantiomorph



Posted by: RameusB5 May 11 2006, 09:01 PM

I'm very new to the series (My friends played Morrowind but I never did. I bought Oblivion a few weeks ago because of a review on the show "game head"), and just read through this thread.


First of all, let me say that I'm a gigantic fan of the LotR mythology, though I'm no expert on it my any means (I've read the most popular of his books, from "the Hobbit" to the "Silmarillion."). It seems to me that the ES "backstory" or "mythology" is a lot more complicated than the current game lets on. In fact, reading a lot of the stuff in the lore section is like reading another language at times.

I've got a lot of Real Life stuff to deal with this summer, but I'm going to play through the entire series starting this winter, starting with Arena. I must say that everyone here has really piqued my interest in the games.



As an outsider, I guess I'd like to point out something. The lore and mythology that you guys talk about is made up. To make matters worse, it appears that the guys who created the initial mythos back in 1993 are long gone from the game. Many of the complaints I have seen about Oblivion seem to stem from players who liked the older games because of the amount of time spent developing the world that the game is in, rather than fancy graphics and so forth. It seems to me that as a gaming company grows, many of the things that defined it will change through time.

It's very clear to me that Bethesda wanted to make a game that appealed to the mass audience. Those of us who've only played Oblivion really do see the "Empire" as the "Good Guys." In fact, until recently, I was opposed to doing any of the Daedra Shrine quests because I was under the assumption that the Daedra are all "evil" because they're demons from hell. But when I HAD to do one of the quests to complete the MQ I find out that I'm putting a bunch of vampires out of their misery, which isn't all that evil I guess.

It appears that Bethesda made a decision to make the game a lot more "black and white" in terms of morality. I think I would have appriciated a lot more if "Oblivion" was a lot less like a generic version of "Hell" and the Daedra weren't all just monsters. Part of the problem with pretty much every RPG I've ever played is that there are "NPC's" who you are supposed to talk to, and "Monsters" that you can automatically kill because they happen to be ugly or scary looking or have green skin or something. Just once I'd like to play a RPG game where you can walk over to a goblin or ogre and have a nice chat with them. Perhaps offer them a nice Mutton sandwich or something.


OK, well, this is rambling a lot more than I intended. ANYWAY, it seems to me like you loremasters here (who are obviously all quite intelligent people) seem to be putting WAY more effort into the mythology of the ES Series than devs of Oblivion did. That can only lead to disappointment, IMHO. My hope is that the expansions for Oblivion aren't quite so, well, straightforward, in their approach to things. While the world itself seems open-ended, the quests certainly aren't.



Posted by: featherbrain May 11 2006, 09:48 PM

*listens to the sound of his own head spinning*

One thing I continue to think of as "indisputable" is that the 'created' world is entirely the realm of Lorkhan - "the Spirit of Nirn, the god of all mortals." The purpose and ultimate destiny of the mortal plane was conceived by Lorkhan alone, and although he may have coerced or seduced other hands into actually materialising it, I don't believe that the et'Ada were/are able to alter its Lorkhan-inspired nature at a fundamental level. That surely was the basis for their anger with Lorkhan, and why they felt tricked by him and 'punished' him accordingly (although I don't actually think of it as a punishment so much as a choice). So far, I'm in complete agreement with Mankar's analysis.

Whenever I'm led to speculate on the motives of the other powers of Nirn, particularly Akatosh, I'm always drawn back to this one fact. Akatosh may have been proclaimed as the first of all gods in his various guises, but the world over which he rules never belonged to him in the first place, it is Lorkhan's domain. Naturally, this world required linear time in order for it to exist at all in any meaningful sense - or remain forever in a state of potential - and this was clearly the preserve of Akatosh, Dragon God of Time. Without the intervention of Akatosh, Lorkhan's dream would have remained just that.

Consider this paradoxical situation for Akatosh: the greatest power and motive force of a world that was not of his own design or intention, and over which he can make no claim. While he chooses to extend his power into this realm - rather than abandoning it entirely like Magnus - he has no choice but to become entangled or enmeshed in Lorkhan's being, the very thing that justifies and sustains the existence of the mortal plane. And importantly, Lorkhan can no longer exist separately from this world, even though his being was divided from itself:

"But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, "This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." So Auriel fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea, where no aspect of the new world may ever find it." (http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Altmeri).

I'm going over old ground here, but these "aspects of the new world" can be understood in many ways, from the Aedra and Ehlnofey, to Mer and Men and arguably every mortal creature of Nirn. "Aspects" then inevitably means - or so it seems to me - reflections, shadows or embodiments of everything and anything that remains of the divided Lorkhan in his creation. And that must surely include the Aedra, who are after all the 'mortal' gods. To be anything more than pure potential - change that is not yet actualised - they must take material shape and be realised within Nirn. And this can only happen through what remains of the being of Lorkhan - if you follow this chain of reasoning. Even Akatosh must be bound by this logic.

So, confusions between the beings of Akatosh and Lorkhan are to be expected, are they not? For this reason, I argued a while ago that Akatosh could be considered, in a very concrete way, to be an aspect of Lorkhan. I'm not sure what I think about that now, and it's a pretty crude kind of metaphysics anyway, but I can't yet shake off the thought.

I suppose I'm waiting for someone to point out an obvious reason for thinking that Nirn is not Lorkhan's realm either in fact or in principle.

QUOTE(RameusB5 @ May 11 2006, 07:01 PM)

Perhaps offer them a nice Mutton sandwich or something.

Hey, I'll take that if you have some mustard. As for the rest - you're right, of course. I hope you enjoy playing the whole series through (if you can actually get the early games to work properly) - but how can you possibly wait until winter!!

Posted by: B May 11 2006, 11:11 PM

QUOTE(RameusB5 @ May 11 2006, 03:01 PM)

I'm very new to the series (My friends played Morrowind but I never did. I bought Oblivion a few weeks ago because of a review on the show "game head"), and just read through this thread.
First of all, let me say that I'm a gigantic fan of the LotR mythology, though I'm no expert on it my any means (I've read the most popular of his books, from "the Hobbit" to the "Silmarillion."). It seems to me that the ES "backstory" or "mythology" is a lot more complicated than the current game lets on. In fact, reading a lot of the stuff in the lore section is like reading another language at times.

I've got a lot of Real Life stuff to deal with this summer, but I'm going to play through the entire series starting this winter, starting with Arena. I must say that everyone here has really piqued my interest in the games.
As an outsider, I guess I'd like to point out something. The lore and mythology that you guys talk about is made up. To make matters worse, it appears that the guys who created the initial mythos back in 1993 are long gone from the game. Many of the complaints I have seen about Oblivion seem to stem from players who liked the older games because of the amount of time spent developing the world that the game is in, rather than fancy graphics and so forth. It seems to me that as a gaming company grows, many of the things that defined it will change through time.

It's very clear to me that Bethesda wanted to make a game that appealed to the mass audience. Those of us who've only played Oblivion really do see the "Empire" as the "Good Guys." In fact, until recently, I was opposed to doing any of the Daedra Shrine quests because I was under the assumption that the Daedra are all "evil" because they're demons from hell. But when I HAD to do one of the quests to complete the MQ I find out that I'm putting a bunch of vampires out of their misery, which isn't all that evil I guess.

It appears that Bethesda made a decision to make the game a lot more "black and white" in terms of morality. I think I would have appriciated a lot more if "Oblivion" was a lot less like a generic version of "Hell" and the Daedra weren't all just monsters. Part of the problem with pretty much every RPG I've ever played is that there are "NPC's" who you are supposed to talk to, and "Monsters" that you can automatically kill because they happen to be ugly or scary looking or have green skin or something. Just once I'd like to play a RPG game where you can walk over to a goblin or ogre and have a nice chat with them. Perhaps offer them a nice Mutton sandwich or something.
OK, well, this is rambling a lot more than I intended. ANYWAY, it seems to me like you loremasters here (who are obviously all quite intelligent people) seem to be putting WAY more effort into the mythology of the ES Series than devs of Oblivion did. That can only lead to disappointment, IMHO. My hope is that the expansions for Oblivion aren't quite so, well, straightforward, in their approach to things. While the world itself seems open-ended, the quests certainly aren't.

As a person whose love of ES Lore started back in 1994, I would agree with almost everything you said. I hope you have a great winter playing through all the games you can find. And don't forget to come back and visit.

Posted by: B May 11 2006, 11:23 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 11 2006, 02:46 PM)

Insert Proweler's fascinating ideas here.

You have many wonderfully interesting ideas and connections, Proweler. I would love for them to turn out to be true.

Posted by: 1999 May 12 2006, 11:42 AM

QUOTE(B @ May 11 2006, 05:23 PM)

You have many wonderfully interesting ideas and connections, Proweler. I would love for them to turn out to be true.


Be unwilling to Despair = Nil Desperandum

Add a bit extra commonsense:

people seem to be missing out on 2 facts:

Overall Question:
In game, who writes or creates the circumstances that the Lore in-game is based on?

Answer: several handfulls of competing and mutually destructive 'Gods?'

So why would you expect their 'creation and recreation' to be anything other than mutually contradictory, up to and including the way the entire world/s and firmaments work?


Detail Question:
Several writers here have expressed concepts about connections to Akatosh being necessary for the Amulet to work?

Answer: First off all the Gods and Daedra are actually related, they having come from the first primal stuff, and the twins/brothers Anu and Aum??? = connected/related/family = cousins?

next, in more modern times, the mer, humankind etc also came from either the gods or Daedra directly or from the same stuff??? = connected/related/family = cousins?

in specific was 'the Potentate' Verwatsits Shae, a snake-type person? If so snakes are related to dragons? = on the same branch of the evolutionary tree = cousins?

on the matter of the Amulet being in the posession of or warn by a dead person? Did the 'Gods' consider that dead person to be non-existant? Perhaps to the 'Gods' dead people are still people who have become the proper concern of a different god when they die? = still in the posession of and worn by a 'cousin' and heir. After all Akatosh has very strong views on the matter of Necromancy - which is the treatment fo people after they are dead = death is another continued state of existance of the same entity...

note the word 'heir.' Is there a qualifier that says true or legitimate connected to this? And even if there were, then 'true or legitimate' by whose standards and in what terms?



----

In summation: It seems to me (the perennial catch-up artist who never can afford to divert enough funds to buy the d... equipment to play the games when they first come out) that what is happening here is that Ob is a very powerful game, and that the impact of the new effects on players combined with a certain clumsiness in quest design and the way that Lore is being introduced on the part of the Bethsoft production team have combined to estrange many players. Too bad they did not devote more resources to deal with this.

The question now is how can the game be balanced up?

The answer is that if you want you can join a modding team. There are several major projects that will have a serious impact, and I happen to know that raggidman, editor of Silgrad Tower is already considering the above questions.

So I am sure are the teams at Tamriel Rebuilt etc. Come join us, and create whatever it is that you feel is missing. It sure aint the same as just sitting back and reading about it all happening elsewhere...

ps Proweler, raggidman invites you all to write a lore book on this topic for ST.

Posted by: proweler May 12 2006, 12:24 PM

Silgrad, you come as a trickster. Worn smooth are your words and ulterior are your motives. Adding fantasy to reality is not a way to make the conflict disappear. To no surprise as I've heard the Tower of Silgrad preferred fantasy to much.

Study of the monomyth reveals that all stories follow the general pattern of history. Who was the cause of what is often hard to say but if the truth lays in the center, then both sides are to blame. Although they would be excused again as the world it selves forces them into conflict.

The Potentate never wore the Amulet and death Reman would provide as much protection as death Uriel.

Owh, and I must say that Autumn, like spring is also a verry fine time of year. You get to kick up the leaves and see whats underneath.

Posted by: Lady Nibenay May 12 2006, 11:37 PM

I would agree that much of it would be self-legitimizing propaganda. Charles the Great traced his legitimacy to the Roman throne, and Peter the Great cited his Tsarship as a continued line through Charles the Great to the Roman emperors. None of them, however, were even remotely related by blood or race.

However, it is also clear that the Amulet of Kings does something. Is it just an incredibly powerful soul gem? Is it the sigil stone for the White Gold Tower? Who knows?

The death of Uriel VII Septim caused something to happen, and the death/transformation/apotheosis of Martin I Septim caused something.

The question is how they're all related.


[quote]We know that the aforementioned portion of the Trials of St. Alessia cannot be true unless Alessia was extremely promiscuous. ]

Hey, you never know!

Posted by: 1999 May 12 2006, 11:37 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 12 2006, 06:24 AM)

Silgrad, you come as a trickster. Worn smooth are your words and ulterior are your motives. Adding fantasy to reality is not a way to make the conflict disappear. To no surprise as I've heard the Tower of Silgrad preferred fantasy to much.

Study of the monomyth reveals that all stories follow the general pattern of history. Who was the cause of what is often hard to say but if the truth lays in the center, then both sides are to blame. Although they would be excused again as the world it selves forces them into conflict.

The Potentate never wore the Amulet and death Reman would provide as much protection as death Uriel.

Owh, and I must say that Autumn, like spring is also a verry fine time of year. You get to kick up the leaves and see whats underneath.


My favorite god in Runequest (pen and paper RPG) was the Trickster because I like to laugh at the way people twist the truths that I try to present to them in such a role. The invitation came as an afterthought from raggidman (literary editor of Silgrad Tower) it is open, unpaid and without strings or guarantees.

Like you I get to hear a lot of things, but I usually like to make up my own mind. I am aware that people can show different faces to different people, but when I like the way someone presents something, if I have time, I sometimes take a look for myself to see if I like the thing presented.

Some stories may be truer than others, but it can be very hard to determine which is which. Thing is that when Gods play they rewrite the rules (and programming)...and in the case of Akatosh that may include the past too...

Once a king, always a king. And it seems that dead Uriel could not wear the Amulet as it was stolen? And the thief did not declare himself Emperor did he?

AU tum is the time of gold and food (gather both for you may need them to survive the winter.) Spring is the time of 'Calix meum inebrians' - my cup delights me. Summer is the time of 'Calix meum te inebrians' for your experience will depend on how your cup delights another. Winter is the time when you realise that if you did not and do not live well for things and people other than yourself all you have only decreases...

Live well and with delight little squirrels...but do not tell me about the winter you will not be awake to see...


Posted by: Arklon May 12 2006, 11:55 PM

QUOTE(Crevyn @ May 11 2006, 04:07 AM)

There were others towers built, by the Aldmer. What I've been wondering is, do these towers also support the barrier between Oblivion and Mundus, or not? I thought the Ayleids built White-Gold tower, and that the Amulet of Kings is its stone. But does this tower even support the barrier? From what I've read, I can't conclude the Ayleids built that tower to protect the Mundus, or support the barrier in any way. I don't know what they were trying to achieve by building it. Or did they simply build the tower, and did an Aedra give it a stone (the Amulet of Kigns), thus using it as an extra source of power for the barrier?

Not sure if this answers your question, but imagine all of the Towers (except for White-Gold) in a circle (well, it's a rough circle, and Walk-Brass... um... well, that's beside the point), and act as a wheel. Then imagine having another wheel put in the center of the wheel that was already there. White-Gold Tower, when you look at it top-down, looks like a wheel; it's also based off of the Adamantine Tower. Because of this, the tower has some control over the others, like putting a smaller wheel right in the middle of a larger wheel.
The Towers do support the barrier, but with Red Tower's (which also happens to be the most powerful of all the Towers) Stone out of commission, and also possibly due to the events of past games, the barrier was destroyed.

Posted by: Nalion May 13 2006, 01:20 AM

QUOTE

I would agree that much of it would be self-legitimizing propaganda. Charles the Great traced his legitimacy to the Roman throne, and Peter the Great cited his Tsarship as a continued line through Charles the Great to the Roman emperors. None of them, however, were even remotely related by blood or race.

Very nice! People seemed to believe that the lineages of Charles the Great or Peter the Great were true, right?

Now transfer this to a world where belief in a person literally can hold a big rock up in the air.

Posted by: Vohod May 13 2006, 02:08 AM

Uriel Septim VIIIs DNA and Tiber Septim's would appear as though they are almost strangers since teh "bloodline" has been so dilluted.

Posted by: Gez May 13 2006, 02:32 AM

Yes. It's very possible that the Amulet of Kings and Dragonfires is not the only factor that prevents longlasting Oblivion Gates from being open here and there. After all, between the time an Emperor croaks and the time a new one is crowned, a lot of things could happen. That there's not a Daedric mini-invasion at each succession proves that there's other factors.

However, the Numidium was destroyed in Daggerfall, and the Red Mountain lost its key in Morrowind. (I don't know if taking one piece of the Staff of Chaos from the Crystal Tower would count as a disruption, too.) So with three, possibly four of the Towers offline, the barrier was weak enough.

Posted by: featherbrain May 13 2006, 09:07 AM

QUOTE
However, it is also clear that the Amulet of Kings does something. Is it just an incredibly powerful soul gem? Is it the sigil stone for the White Gold Tower? Who knows?

So we all assume. But why do we assume that? If we apply Ted's test of working with actual evidence from the game(s), what do we witness directly? We are only told about its supposed powers, but we never actually see it *doing* anything until the conclusion, when Akatosh's direct intervention could be explanation enough for what happens then. We hear about its history only through the filter of Imperial propaganda. We can't even be sure that it's an Ayleid artifact, as this is never demonstrated - rumour and conjecture only. The only concrete evidence is that the player can't equip the Amulet, but then we see Mankar doing just that only moments before Martin asserts yet again that only one of the joined bloodline can do wear it.

OK, let's take this as a position: there is no substantial reason at all for believing that the Amulet is anything more than costume jewelry, utterly lacking in any powers mundane or magical. Now prove this position wrong with in-game evidence.

The idea that the Amulet and joined bloodline hold shut the gates of Oblivion could be about as meaningful as the belief that the British throne will collapse if ever the ravens leave the Tower of London (and they still clip their wings to this day to stop them flying away).

Posted by: adamant_2001 May 13 2006, 10:08 AM

The Totem would only accept "those of noble blood" and yet was able to be used by both Zurin Arctus and Mannimarco...

The Amulet of Kings would only accept "those of our joined blood" and yet accepted not only the descendants of Alessia but those of Reman, Septim, and Camoran.

Perhaps both of these items despite their own claims, work on a similar principle?

Posted by: Gez May 13 2006, 12:10 PM

Yes. I have already likened the Totem and the Amulet, in my opinion they are the same kind of MacGuffins -- the claim that only nobility or bloodline can wield it is in fact just an alibi for the item's only real discrimination, which is NO CHAMPION CAN KEEP ME OR USE ME.

Give the AoK or the ToTS to Fargoth, and he'll be able to use both. Give them to Dagoth Ur or to Divayth Fyr, give them to Krish or Dulk, give them to Falanu Hlaalu or to Bothrir; all will be able to use them. Because they aren't champions. Their role is not to provoke and solve conflicts, they are passive.

MacGuffins can only be used by passive characters. Actual protagonists can only find, transport, and deliver them.

Posted by: 1999 May 13 2006, 12:33 PM

QUOTE(Nalion @ May 12 2006, 07:20 PM)

Very nice! People seemed to believe that the lineages of Charles the Great or Peter the Great were true, right?

Now transfer this to a world where belief in a person literally can hold a big rock up in the air.


Add self belief to the mix as well as the belief of others and you recognise the process of self-empowerment . The assumption of a 'God given Right' made manifest. Perhaps that belief (which in the soul may continue beyond death) creates a link or conduit to the power and being of Akatosh or another God. Then the belief of holder of the Amulet when the doors to Oblivion opened ran contrary to the belief of the Emperors (crowned or not.)

If you accept this as so, then the arguments in this thread may naturally follow to speculate on the nature of the 'Towers' - are they batteries or do they channel the divine energies? It may be, as suggested, that the power of Lorkhan's Heart was required to create a link to the pool of Lhorkan's energy which was left w/out the direction of His consciousness by His death, and the other towers were required to support this process as a support or catalyst for the link to the Emperor, or as placeholder between Believers accepting that the burden falls to them.

From this we may consider the atttitude of the 'Good' Daedra and especially Azura toward the Dwemer, Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal as having more behind it than mere distaste for the manner of their vampiric assumtion of 'quasi-godhood.' And the nature of that objection might be that they were diverting energy from or polluting the energy of something that was so important a God sacrificed His life to achieve it...

So it would seem there are hints here that there may be far more behind all this than the mere opening of a gate that allows physical passage from one area to another...

edit: One might also question Azura's motives from another direction as one essential or important part or side effect of her creation of the Nerevarine was to place him in oppostion to Dagoth Ur and thereby cause the destruction (temporary or otherwise) of Lhorkan's Heart, perhaps bringing about the opening of the Gates of Oblivion.

This produces a speculation as to whether there was a further process involved (of which as a player character we would not be directly aware) in the opening of the Gate/s = a rebalancing of energy potentials between Mundus and Oblivion?

Posted by: Meldon May 13 2006, 12:36 PM

I´m sorry if what I say now has already been discussed as I´ve still not read through every post in this thread, but I just don´t really understand why so many here seem to be getting so busy with tracking down the lineage of the Uriel bloodline who supposedly were the only ones impeding the summoning of manifested Daedra Lords [EDIT: Nevermind, I just noticed that the Barrier of the Towers would only keep a Daedroth from appearing at will but the treaty of Sotha Sil with the Daedra Lords in the Cavern of Dreams after all did in some way limit their summonability for at least the lifetime of the Tribunal] and the opening of Oblivion Gates on Mundus since the time of Tiber Septim with the Amulet of Kings.

I guess it may be very possible that there were times before and even after the founding of the Empire during which no legitime Emperor wielded the Amulet simply because the Tribunal was present at those times.

And even when the Tribunal alone could not avoid a partial collapsing of the barrier to Oblivion they seemingly still had enough power to defeat an attack by Mehrunes Dagon, who seems to be pretty much the only Daedra Lord interested in outright attacking Tamriel. They proved that during his attack on the city of Almalexia after all, although I do not remember exactly when that was.

After the Tribunal´s destruction by the hands of the Nerevarine the Barrier started getting instable (IIRC that was even suggested in Bloodmoon were Hircine was able to start his hunt earlier than usual, correct me about this if I´m wrong though as I haven´t played Bloodmoon for quite some time) and a final outbreak of Mehrunes Dagon was only prevented by Uriel Septim VII and I have not yet read of any source that really clearly proves that he cannot have Tiber Septim´s blood, who seems to have had a blessing of Akatosh, who after all possessed divine powers that gave him the ability to create towers to reinforce the Barrier to Oblivion at those times as he used it with the other divines when creating the Adamantine Tower in High Rock aswell.

And the Tribunal should have been able to help holding the Barrier even long before the battle at the Red Mountain, too, as IIRC a Dragon Break happened when they gained their divinity at the Heart of Lorkhan and this Break supposedly shifted reality so that the Tribunal as gods could have always existed, thus holding the Barrier as some kind of placeholder for the Amulet of Kings together with the other Towers even before men and mer came to exist.

... well maybe I´m making no sense here or even just stating the obvious as I am by no means a Lore Buff compared to some people here but those are just my thoughts after having read about this issue here lately.

Posted by: proweler May 13 2006, 01:26 PM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 13 2006, 08:07 AM)

OK, let's take this as a position: there is no substantial reason at all for believing that the Amulet is anything more than costume jewelry, utterly lacking in any powers mundane or magical. Now prove this position wrong with in-game evidence.

The idea that the Amulet and joined bloodline hold shut the gates of Oblivion could be about as meaningful as the belief that the British throne will collapse if ever the ravens leave the Tower of London (and they still clip their wings to this day to stop them flying away).


You can't prove the Amulet is just jewelery, Martin broke it and transformed himselves in the Dragon that beat up Mehrunes. The power to do that just doesn't excist concentrated like that on Mundus. We can however certainly tell that blood is not involved -other then to make the common populance feel secure.
We also say that any time the Divines are said to apear and do something magnificient, they didn't actually apear. The Warp of the West , which we know is caused by the Numidium, is now atributed by the Imperial propaganda to the interference of Akatosh, Mara and Julianos, the huge destruction in the bay area is shoved away as an "unexplainable" side effect.
The same is done with the Birth of Reman, he's born out of nothing, with the Amulet of Kings on his neck after King Hrol made love on to a hillock.

Looking at the speed at which the people adress common things to divine intervention, I'd say the same thing happend when Allesia discoverd the Amulet of Kings. As a new crowned Empress of Man you can't go about wearing an Elven Artifact, all the more reason to make up a divine intervention.

----

I think we can all agree that the connection to the divine is nothing but mundane self-enpowerment and justification. So what is underneath?

Under B's assumption of limited knowledged just Mankars rant. If the Aedra don't excist then Mundus is just Lorkhans realm and with Lorkhan uncontious Mundus is just a prison to us.

Under Pete's assumption of official lore the idea is somewhat in line with the other known things. Still the Heart of Lorkhan, Mehrunes Dagon (on BS) and Sigil stones all disapeard in the same way. I'd only be a short jump to assume that all acted like Sigil stones.

That's kinda what happend with Nu-Mantia intercept so there is nothing in it but a connection between excisting lose points. I think I'll just got with it.

Posted by: B May 13 2006, 03:51 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 13 2006, 07:26 AM)

I think we can all agree that the connection to the divine is nothing but mundane self-enpowerment and justification. So what is underneath?

Under B's assumption of limited knowledged just Mankars rant. If the Aedra don't excist then Mundus is just Lorkhans realm and with Lorkhan uncontious Mundus is just a prison to us.

Under Pete's assumption of official lore the idea is somewhat in line with the other known things. Still the Heart of Lorkhan, Mehrunes Dagon (on BS) and Sigil stones all disapeard in the same way. I'd only be a short jump to assume that all acted like Sigil stones.

That's kinda what happend with Nu-Mantia intercept so there is nothing in it but a connection between excisting lose points. I think I'll just got with it.

I think that might be as good as it gets.

We have made some progress, but not as much as most of us would've hoped.

Posted by: Vivos Dalen May 15 2006, 02:45 PM

QUOTE(B @ May 13 2006, 01:51 PM)

I think that might be as good as it gets.

We have made some progress, but not as much as most of us would've hoped.



My opinions:

The amulet was not meant to keep the daedra out, the amulet is as mentioned before a microcosm of mundus(the tower and spokes) and an artefact of sympathetic magick. As above so bellow. Actions through the amulet are reflected in mundus itself. It is a powerful refection of *what is*, so powerful that it has incarnate power.


The amulet(tower key ) represents mundus,it is the blending of alessas soul into amulet that mirrors the blending of Lorkhans soul into creation.

I think it may have been far more potent in the hands of humans than the hands of the Alyeds,despite they being its creators.

The amulet could be the attempt of the Alyeds to impose their own oversoul upon mundus but due to their philosophical distaste for Lorkhan and the elvish mythos they were not willing to sanctify it with a sympathetic sacrifice as she did.

After Aleissas sacrifice the amulet became a even more perfect replica. The elves would not take this step. They would not philosophically be inclined to walk Shors path, but Shors path *was walked* therefore by denying aspects of the creation they created a flawed mirror. Aleissa perfected this.

The emperor relationship to the amulet parallels Lorkhans relationship with mundus.An act of perpetual sacrifice.

After morrowind the heart was weakened/destroyed which diluted the barriers but it the ACT not the FACT of the emperors death which allowed the invasion to commence.

If we keep the idea of the amulet being the Mundus in microcosom we can see:

It is not that the emperor was assassinated which was so important, it was that the mythic dawn(representing Dagon) killed the Emperor (representing Shor) and took the amulet (representing Mundus.)
A random assassination would not be so significant but this murder had MEANING.

This microcosm influenced the macrocosm.

This leads to a new understanding of Martins actions

The very act of Martins sacrifice to the amulet parallels Lorkhans sacrifice to create/protect? the mundus.

The dragon stone represents the heart directly; it is remnants of the sacrifice of martin/lorkan to the protection of the mundus.Martin acted the role of Lorkan and made a sympathetic sacrifice


On a more random note this also leads to the idea that Akatosh may be a consequence of creation not a cause.

I think it's more likely the amulet created Akatosh rather than vice versa,Akatosh may well be the physical manifestation of Aleissas covenant.

Posted by: Shardie May 15 2006, 03:04 PM

Everything begins with three, Nirn, Anu and Padomey
Nirn became Kyne, Anu became Ariel, Padomy became Lorkhan
Kyne became Kyneath, Ariel became Akatosh, Lorkhan became Shezzar
*Akatosh became Tiber Septim, Shezzar became the Underking*
Martin Septim became Akatosh, and vanished from the world, tipping the power back into Shezzar's favour
Akatosh represents status, the monarchy, order
Shezzar represents change, freedom,
Akatosh represents the Past, the Empire
Shezzar represents the Future, the Intenigrum
it is a cyclical motion, in the chaos of Intenigrum it is Shezzar who is powerful, with the order of empire, it is Akatosh who is powerful

Just somthing I was thinking about, and thanks to allie for opening my mind

*not too sure on this one

Posted by: Hierophant May 15 2006, 03:25 PM

Since everyone seems to contemplate about the barrier betwen Oblivion and Mundus, and how it works, I'd ask one pretty dumb question:

On basis of what do we assume that barrier betwen Mundus and Oblivion ever existed in first place?

In all previous TES games you played, you had tons of Daedra walking around landscape and crawling through practicly any dungeon you'd enter. As soon as you hit... what, lvl 10 or 15... you'd start encountering (and killing) Dremoras, Daedroths, Atronachs of all kinds just merily going around the world.

What where all these things doing there if was a barrier in place betwen Oblivion and Mundus preventing Daedra invading. If all that was just a by-product of unsecesful summonings of some rather powerful wizards, man, that means you'd had to hve an undergound industry of imensly powerful conjurers just producing deadra into our world. And I don't think that most cults or covens work that way, let alone that they are so numerous.

Not only that, but you are quite free to traffick with Daedric Princes themselves in tons of shrines you encounter around. True, you do not get to summon them, but just the fact that you approach them and hear their voice, IMHO, is a pretty valid argument against any kind of barrier existing at all.

Let's face it, the so-called Daedric invasion in TES IV was simply mildly worse form of all those free Daedra strolling around the world in Morrowind and Dagerfall.

So I'd say that the whole thing about barriers betwen Oblivion and Mundus is just a wishful thinking on behalf of frightened mortals. At best, there existed very weak barriers which would crumbe quite quickly.

Now, it's another thing that all Daedra coming into our world perhaps do not wish to invade and conqeur it, but are perhaps merly making visits out of their own whim. And just from time to time, every several thousand years or so (if time goes parallel in Oblivion and Mundus, which is a big question), some particulary cranky Daedric Prince (i.e., Mehrunes Dagon) decides to launch a full-scale invasion. And that's what happened in Oblivion.

Posted by: proweler May 15 2006, 04:16 PM

QUOTE(Hierophant @ May 15 2006, 02:25 PM)

Since everyone seems to contemplate about the barrier betwen Oblivion and Mundus, and how it works, I'd ask one pretty dumb question:

On basis of what do we assume that barrier betwen Mundus and Oblivion ever existed in first place?


All practitioners of daedric magic are familiar with the almost impenetrable barrier between our world and Oblivion. - Martin Septim


Apart from that:

The Khajiit are tied to the barrier.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/clanmother.shtml
And Azurah left and spoke the Third Secret to the Lunar Lattice and bound the Khajiit to the Lattice, as is proper for Nirni's secret defenders. Then Azurah spoke the Third Secret again, and the Moons shone down on the marshes and their light became sugar.

And because Y'ffer had no appreciation for secrets, he shouted the First Secret across all the heavens with his last breath so that all of Fadomai's [Anu's] children could cross the Lattice. But Azurah, in her wisdom, closed the ears of Ahnurr [Padomay's] and Lorkhaj so they alone did not hear the word. [Anu and Padomay are for some strange reason reversed throughout the myth]


Daedra can only be brought to Mundus for an extended duration by rituals.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/darkest_darkness.shtml
In Morrowind, both worshippers and sorcerers summon lesser Daedra and bound Daedra as servants and instruments.

Most Daedric servants can be summoned by sorcerers only for very brief periods, within the most fragile and tenuous frameworks of command and binding. This fortunately limits their capacity for mischief, though in only a few minutes, most of these servants can do terrible harm to their summoners as well as their enemies.

Worshippers may bind other Daedric servants to this plane through rituals and pacts. Such arrangements result in the Daedric servant remaining on this plane indefinitely -- or at least until their bodily manifestations on this plane are destroyed, precipitating their supernatural essences back to Oblivion. Whenever Daedra are encountered at Daedric ruins or in tombs, they are almost invariably long-term visitors to our plane.


Now qeus what the ritual for binding a Daedra to Mundus is.

http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/liminal_bridges.shtml
Transliminal passage of quickened objects or entities without the persistent agency of hyperagonal media is not possible, and even if possible, would result in instantaneous retromission of the transported referents. Only a transpontine circumpenetra- tion of the limen will result in transits of greater than infinitessimal duration.
(...)
To open a gate to Oblivion, the mechanic must communicate directly, by spell or enchantment, with the Daedra Lord who inscribed the sigil stone in question. The Daedra Lord and the mechanic jointly invoke the conjurational charter [2], and the mechanic activates the charged sigil stone, which is immediately transported through the liminal barrier to the spot where its sigil was inscribed, thus opening a temporary portal between Mundus and Oblivion. This portal may only remain open for a brief period of time, depending on the strength of the liminal barrier at the chosen spots, several minutes being the longest ever reported, so the usefulness of such a gate is quite limited.


And in the obscured text:

http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml
In short, the Barrier is weakening, and I know why.

Posted by: Crevyn May 15 2006, 04:45 PM

QUOTE(Vivos Dalen @ May 15 2006, 01:45 PM)

<snip>


Wow, I'd never have figured that out, but it sounds very good to me. It could be true, I think, and that would be very interesting

Posted by: proweler May 15 2006, 04:52 PM

QUOTE(Shardie @ May 15 2006, 02:04 PM)

Just somthing I was thinking about


Here's a few more

Nir, the female principle created by Anu and Padomay
Mara, concubine of Auriel and Shor
Allesia, lover of Mori-Haus breathe of Kyne (Shor) and priestess to Akatosh
Martin, priest of Akatosh and heir to Talos.

Love is God

Posted by: adamant_2001 May 15 2006, 09:25 PM

Since White-Gold-Tower represents a wheel within the wheel, and the Amulet is tied to this, there is another likely scenario:
The Amulet is the focus for that tower.

The barriers weakened with the freeing of the heart and Warp of the West. It was assumed that the 'convenant' and the dragon fires is what would drive back the Daedra. (of course no previous invasion has occured, but with a daedric invasion at the same time as the death of an Emperor and this prevalent myth it can be seen why the Blades who are tied closely with the Nine Divines faith would see it as tied to the 'covenant.')

The Amulet is the "remote control" for the wheel made by the Ayleids, like the totem was the "remote control" for Numidium.

Functionally Martinius Septim (they're not going to let the last Septim Emperor have such a Breton name in the history books!) acheived CHIM within this tower in a tower. (different from real full-scale CHIM, but good enough for his purpose)

So, the Amulet does have the power to evoke the Ayleid wheel and does so in a manner exactly like the Totem. Which is why both have similar requirements for 'noble blood.' Which may be nothing more than a certain type of attunement to the mythic forces used.

Mankar Camoran knew that the only threat to his plan was CHIM within CHIM, and the Septims were a known bloodline capable of this. For all intents and purposes, their deaths were merely a precaution, one that of course led to his downfall.

Posted by: 1999 May 18 2006, 11:07 AM

This is from the http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=434893&hl;= thread in response to some posts about what portals are, and a post discounting a quote that suggests that some individuals seem to be able to move to Oblivion at will:

QUOTE
Don't discount the 'seemingly at will' bit too soon. What do you think you are doing when you summon a Daedra? Are you creating a portal? Difficult to decide eh? So maybe what portals do is permit those without the skill/s to travel, and connect specific areas? Also Portals as we normally think of them are long lasting phenomena, and the power to sustain them (as compared with a summoning) must be phenomenal.

That leads me to think of the 'Towers' as being established to hold portals open, and the Amulet as being their controller... eh?


QUOTE
proweler Posted May 15 2006, 10:16 AM
QUOTE(Hierophant @ May 15 2006, 02:25 PM)

Since everyone seems to contemplate about the barrier betwen Oblivion and Mundus, and how it works, I'd ask one pretty dumb question:

On basis of what do we assume that barrier betwen Mundus and Oblivion ever existed in first place?




All practitioners of daedric magic are familiar with the almost impenetrable barrier between our world and Oblivion. - Martin Septim


Apart from that:

The Khajiit are tied to the barrier.

Words of the Clan Mother
And Azurah left and spoke the Third Secret to the Lunar Lattice and bound the Khajiit to the Lattice, as is proper for Nirni's secret defenders. Then Azurah spoke the Third Secret again, and the Moons shone down on the marshes and their light became sugar.

Just for fun proweler - please note that young Martin Septim does say: "almost impenetrable barrier."

And I also note that the clan mother appears to be advertising drugs for sale? "and their light became sugar." Or maybe she was using at the time???

Posted by: Vivos Dalen May 18 2006, 12:07 PM

QUOTE(adamant_2001 @ May 15 2006, 07:25 PM)

Since White-Gold-Tower represents a wheel within the wheel, and the Amulet is tied to this, there is another likely scenario:
The Amulet is the focus for that tower.

The barriers weakened with the freeing of the heart and Warp of the West. It was assumed that the 'convenant' and the dragon fires is what would drive back the Daedra. (of course no previous invasion has occured, but with a daedric invasion at the same time as the death of an Emperor and this prevalent myth it can be seen why the Blades who are tied closely with the Nine Divines faith would see it as tied to the 'covenant.')

The Amulet is the "remote control" for the wheel made by the Ayleids, like the totem was the "remote control" for Numidium.

Functionally Martinius Septim (they're not going to let the last Septim Emperor have such a Breton name in the history books!) acheived CHIM within this tower in a tower. (different from real full-scale CHIM, but good enough for his purpose)

So, the Amulet does have the power to evoke the Ayleid wheel and does so in a manner exactly like the Totem. Which is why both have similar requirements for 'noble blood.' Which may be nothing more than a certain type of attunement to the mythic forces used.

Mankar Camoran knew that the only threat to his plan was CHIM within CHIM, and the Septims were a known bloodline capable of this. For all intents and purposes, their deaths were merely a precaution, one that of course led to his downfall.

Nice Speculations,

I agree the amulet is a focus for the tower as was the totem but the amulet is not "just" a focus, it is described as a soul gem of immense power.

I doubt Martinus as he has been newly been christened would have been able to achieve CHIM himself capable as he is, but the act of smashing the soul gem would have released a lot of entities which may have had the necessary knowledge or power.
Aspects of Shor in the soulgem? Did Talos bond with the amulet of kings?

If that is the case we have been slowly freeing aspects of Shor over the course of many games, putting the underking to rest, freeing the heart from red mountain etc..
Probably necessary if he is to come back in the flesh to reestablish the empire as he has done before.


B.T.W If you want a skooma inspired theory try this one:
The selectives imprisoned Akatosh within the amulet of kings in order to take his position,smashing it freed him.

Posted by: proweler May 18 2006, 12:12 PM

QUOTE(1999 @ May 18 2006, 10:07 AM)

This is from the http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=434893&hl;= thread in response to some posts about what portals are, and a post discounting a quote that suggests that some individuals seem to be able to move to Oblivion at will:


Mmh, I'll go read that.

QUOTE

Just for fun proweler - please note that young Martin Septim does say: "almost impenetrable barrier."


Ofcourse, you can put a hole right through it by activating a Sigil stone on Mundus. The gate won't stay open for long however. As described in "Liminal Bridges".

QUOTE
And I also note that the clan mother appears to be advertising drugs for sale? "and their light became sugar." Or maybe she was using at the time???


Nope, that is their religion. They got to climb the sky to put the Moons/Lunnar Lattice back in place. With Moonsuger beeing destiled magic having to the brought to the Lattice and with the tower focusing magicka on a single point to maintain a barrier it's quite obvious that they are maintaining the samething.


Posted by: 1999 May 20 2006, 11:56 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 18 2006, 06:12 AM)

Mmh, I'll go read that.
Ofcourse, you can put a hole right through it by activating a Sigil stone on Mundus. The gate won't stay open for long however. As described in "Liminal Bridges".
Nope, that is their religion. They got to climb the sky to put the Moons/Lunnar Lattice back in place. With Moonsuger beeing destiled magic having to the brought to the Lattice and with the tower focusing magicka on a single point to maintain a barrier it's quite obvious that they are maintaining the samething.


Thanks for the 'Liminal Bridges tip, I'll have to check that out, esp as it likely impacts on my own pet theories that as maintaining an open or closed portal for a longer period of time uses enormous power the 'Towers' are likely the power source, with the amulet being simply an activator or key.

And this has interesting implications for modders of course - a potentially rich source of questing to establish, not only what they actually, individually are, but also what consequences manipulating them or interfeering with them might produce...

As for the Cat-Lore, I will always look at it with a questioning eye, as though I am sure it is intertwined with great truths, it is undoubtedly also intertwined with the moonsugar and skooma drugs trade. Though it is possible that moonsugar was initially named that to entice the cats to use it (and perhaps corrupt their religion) it is apparently becoming more and more prevalent, and now is attacking the basis of their society. What I do not know is when moonsugar first appeared, so of course my post was partialy tongue in cheek, but note the questioning...

Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev May 21 2006, 12:27 AM

It wasn't so much the Emperor himself but his Dragon Blood, allowing him to use the Amulet of Kings to revive the Dragonfires in the Temple of the One. The Dragonfires, Akatosh's own fiery breath, is a symbol that Akatosh is keeping Oblivion sealed as best he can. Also, the Tribunal Made a Pact to further seal Oblivion. These two causes kept Daedra from exiting Oblivion exept by the will of a summoner on the mortal Plane. Both of the Barriers were attacked in close succession, (4 years) so the natural barriers that already existed before these things, which were pretty pathetic, and further weakened from lack of use, fell quite quickly. Thats my theory, but Akavir Lore and Daedra Prince lore is more where I'm suited.

Posted by: adamant_2001 May 21 2006, 04:33 AM

QUOTE(Vivos Dalen @ May 18 2006, 06:07 AM)

Aspects of Shor in the soulgem? Did Talos bond with the amulet of kings?

If that is the case we have been slowly freeing aspects of Shor over the course of many games, putting the underking to rest, freeing the heart from red mountain etc..
Probably necessary if he is to come back in the flesh to reestablish the empire as he has done before.


That's actually what I've been wondering as well. If this is intended the next TES game could start getting interesting...

Posted by: JarrenZon May 21 2006, 08:13 AM

I will say that I enjoyed some of the things Camoran was rambling about to me in Paradise. Put in prespective the 9 Divines, and how Daedric Lords really worked. And for the most part, the Divines did hide behind statues, placing their blessing on the few and far between.

I agree, Ocato had motive to betray the emperor. Then near the end, he realized that hell was brought on Nirn, and the only way to stop it was to help Martin.

There are a lot of plot holes, that's true. I kinda got pissed at the Grey Fox for being all, "No one would recognize be because of the Cowl."
The curse wasn't passed on wtf... I wanted to be A Stranger too... but no, we gotta make it so you can take it off and be Jarren A. Zon any time. Way to hold to your word Nocturnal.

It may not have just been that there was no one with the Amulet of the Kings, but to a bigger picture, all the things done by Mankar Camoran. The opening of Paradise may have had an effect on Tamriel, plus all of the works within the Mythic Dawn. The only thing the Amulet of Kings did was make Martin die, and destroy itself, and end "The Oblivion Crisis."

But it will happen again. Sheogorath will reign supreme over all of Nirn!!!
Bwahahaha! Flaming Dogs, Rats, Staves of the Everscamp, all sorts of madness will claim Tamriel. And Insane Cultist Leader Jarren Alan Zon shall create not Paradise, but the Plane of Insanity.

Humored Insanists shall rule Tamriel!

Posted by: Polycarp May 21 2006, 03:12 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 13 2006, 01:26 PM)

If the Aedra don't excist then Mundus is just Lorkhans realm and with Lorkhan uncontious Mundus is just a prison to us.

This is an interesting perception and I will allow myself a bit of a ramble on the topic. I find it interesting that Mankar continually points out how the Mannish gods hide behind statues and foolish priests, however if you look back in time you will find the Merrish Aedra are very hands on.

"Auriel pleaded with Anu... his soul was gentler and granted Auriel his Bow and Shield, so that he might save the Aldmer from the hordes of Men... Auriel could not save Altmora, the Elder Wood, and it was lost to Men. They were chased south and east to Old Ehlnofey, and Lorkhan was close behind... The Men dragged Lorkhan's body away and swore blood vengeance on the heirs of Auriel for all time. But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, "This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." So Auriel fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea, where no aspect of the new world may ever find it." - http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml

"Auri-El led the original Aldmer against the armies of Lorkhan in mythic times, vanquishing that tyrant and establishing the first kingdoms of the Altmer, Altmora and Old Ehlnofey. He then ascended to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane." - http://til.gamingsource.net/__gods/altmer.shtml

All that however changes midway. Camoran addresses this.

"The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers..."

"Whereby the words of Lord Dagon instructs us to destroy these faithless. "Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first. Spit out or burn to the side that which made them delay. Know them as the Mnemoli."

"First Tower Dictate: render the mutant bound where he may do no more harm." - http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml

And of course the greatest quote on this topic:

"The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below." - Mannimarco

The Commentaries also address another topic that is familiar and relevant.

"All will change in these days as it was changed in those, for with by the magic word Nu-Mantia a great rebellion rose up and pulled down the towers of CHIM-EL GHARJYG, and the templars of the Upstart were slaughtered, and blood fell like dew from the upper wards down to the lowest pits, where the slaves with maniacal faces took chains and teeth to their jailers and all hope was brush-fire." - http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml

Alessia's revolution and later the Marukh's ambition paved the way for a mass deception. While the previous Aedra blatently acknowledged Lorkhan as their enemy, the false gods of Men hid behind statues and untruth. For these false gods have "hidden ascension in six-thousands years of aetherial labyrinth, which is Arena, which they yet deny is Oathbound. By the Book, take this key and pierce the divine shell that encloses the mantle-takers! The skin of gold! SCARAB AE AURBEX!" They have feigned the very existence of the Dawn, and hence of Lorkhan Who Is Daedroth (and for all blood's sake I never want to hear of "Padomaicly aligned Aedra" again, for he took on the appearence of an Aedra, not the existence of one).

So we see the deception of the Empire of Akatosh. And yet we see the Temple of the One (or Lorkhan) stand quite plainly in the Temple District. How ironic is deception. A Mannish god is a parasite. Even the Princes of Misrule shame them in comparison. For while the Daedra show themselves boldly for what they are (usually), the False gods hide behind the accomplishments of Chim-El Adabal, White-Gold Tower, even the Red Tower founded by Auri-El and Malacath who was Trinimac, who shot the Heart to the far end of Nirn in service of the ultimate soul Anuiel. I cannot scorn these bloated mortal-gods enough.

With all Sincerity,
Polycarp
Altmeri Pilgrim

Posted by: proweler May 21 2006, 05:01 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 21 2006, 02:12 PM)

I cannot scorn these bloated mortal-gods enough.


It is easy to confuse the gods with the image of the gods made by the people. Like all things of Mundus they to are subject to the unstability of the grey. But the observation doesn't only changed the observed it also changes the observer. Overtime the gods of Man and Mer were seen as different and perhaps even spliced apart.

The Imperial Doctrine restored this by bringing the gods of Man and Mer together in a single phanteon. Lorkhan and Akatosh are tied at the hip again, tied by their own creation, the Grey Dragon of Mundus.


Posted by: Polycarp May 21 2006, 07:40 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 21 2006, 05:01 PM)

It is easy to confuse the gods with the image of the gods made by the people. Like all things of Mundus they to are subject to the unstability of the grey. But the observation doesn't only changed the observed it also changes the observer. Overtime the gods of Man and Mer were seen as different and perhaps even spliced apart.

Proweler, you can't just call this perception distorting it. I really like what you've said on this topic dealing with the Amulet, but these just are not the same gods. They were in Alessia's day, but not today (even then their ideals were essentially Merrish and did not appreciate Alessia's slaughtering of the Ayleids).

"A fanatical sect of the Alessian Order, the Maruhkati Selective, becomes frustrated by ancient Aldmeri traditions still present within the theological system of the Eight Divines. Specifically, they hated any admission that Akatosh, the Supreme Spirit, was indisputably also Auriel, the Elven High God." - http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/complete_dragonbroke.shtml

The gods of the past are flagrently different (the most obvious being the Merish Aedra's absolute hatred of Lorkhan and his ideals) in so many ways that I have already stated, and for goodness sake I haven't even touched the tip of the proverbial iceberg. This passage explains the reason:

"Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them." - http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/complete_dragonbroke.shtml

QUOTE(proweler @ May 21 2006, 05:01 PM)
The Imperial Doctrine restored this by bringing the gods of Man and Mer together in a single phanteon. Lorkhan and Akatosh are tied at the hip again, tied by their own creation, the Grey Dragon of Mundus.

Auriel obviously would not go along with it. That's why the Dragon Break was neccessary. The followers of the One (or Shor) needed an Empire united under Lorkhan's ideals (ideals that believe the diminishing of divinity through Mundus is a decent, productive thing), hence Mannish beliefs. No one can tie Lorkhan and Auriel at the hip, but when a god is built by the follower of Shezarr, it is easy to tie them at the hip. Until the Marukhati the Alessian system was just politics, nothing more. Unless if Bethesda really screwed something up.

Nonetheless, read the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, Mannimarco, Vehk (basically anyone who does not worship the Empire or their gods) and you will find continual references that these "gods" were not gods.

Then put in the Dragon Break and everything clicks into place.

"Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call 'Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime." - Book of Hours volume 2

"Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first. Spit out or burn to the side that which made them delay. Know them as the Mnemoli." - Mehrunes Dagon, Commentaries volume 3

Posted by: Polycarp May 21 2006, 08:00 PM

QUOTE(JarrenZon @ May 21 2006, 08:13 AM)

I will say that I enjoyed some of the things Camoran was rambling about to me in Paradise. Put in prespective the 9 Divines, and how Daedric Lords really worked. And for the most part, the Divines did hide behind statues, placing their blessing on the few and far between.

I really don't think people take Mankar seriously enough. Give his Commentaries another good read and you will find one heck of a lot of answers in there (classic MK). People spent so long trying to figure out if we should take the Sermons of Vivec seriously. They'd go off on "but they're so biased" and "Vivec is a liar" (hence his Trial). Of course they are and of course he is. But he's also our best link with a Spirit's perspective. So is Mankar, as he is tied to Dagon. Give him another chance and another read and you might like what you find.

Posted by: proweler May 21 2006, 09:39 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 21 2006, 06:40 PM)
But these just are not the same gods.


The Aedra sacreficed parts of themselves to the world and created offspring to stay alive on Nirn. Then after the Lorkhan War and the Convention they left Mundus. The gods that then became known as our gods were the parts sacreficed to Mundus. Saying that the Marakhuti became these parts is like saying mice became elphants. That these parts are seen in a mirade of ways is not their doing, it's the nature of the Grey Maybe.

The Aedra were givers before Lairs, they followed Lorkhan untill they betrayed him and called him the betrayer. It is Lorkhan's side of the oldest argument on Mundus, it has no relevance to the Maruhkati Selective.

As a above so below, man are gods. We are the offspring of the gods, weaker and less powerfull but of the same material. Power is all that is needed.
They could not remove their Merish aspects from the Eight because the gods of Man and Mer were the same gods, so like the Tribunal the Maruhkati aimed to replace the old imperfect gods.
As a above so below, gods are man. Eight stars fell down and the Dragon Broke ended and Selective became Mortal again.

QUOTE
No one can tie Lorkhan and Auriel at the hip


http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7
Those scholars that can perceive its [Chim's] shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration.



Posted by: Polycarp May 21 2006, 10:33 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 21 2006, 09:39 PM)

The Aedra sacreficed parts of themselves to the world and created offspring to stay alive on Nirn. Then after the Lorkhan War and the Convention they left Mundus. The gods that then became known as our gods were the parts sacreficed to Mundus. Saying that the Marakhuti became these parts is like saying mice became elphants. That these parts are seen in a mirade of ways is not their doing, it's the nature of the Grey Maybe.

In the book http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/aedra_daedra.shtml, it clearly states that the gods are not just the Earth Bones, but that "Aedra created the mortal world and are bound to the Earth Bones." Now enter in the factor of "As above, so below." It is not so much a matter of mice and elephants but of younger and older elephants.

Secondly in the "miriade" of ways the Aedra are seen we typically do not have such contridictions as we see in the Mannish/Merrish Aedra. One group fought Lorkhan continually, one is worshipped along side him. Also recall that the aspects of Zenithar and Mara perceived by the Nerevarine were indeed in Mannish form. One group continually advocates escape from the mortal realm, then other encourages the embrace of mortality (http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml). One group supports the Men continually, one kills countless of them. In a previous time Mer watched Auriel destroy Lorkhan and his followers the Men, and now you say he is Akatosh...

He must have had a great change of heart.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 21 2006, 09:39 PM)
As a above so below, man are gods. We are the offspring of the gods, weaker and less powerfull but of the same material. Power is all that is needed.

But Proweler you forget the other part of that quote: "The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn: As above, so below."

QUOTE(proweler @ May 21 2006, 09:39 PM)
They could not remove their Merish aspects from the Eight because the gods of Man and Mer were the same gods, so like the Tribunal the Maruhkati aimed to replace the old imperfect gods. As a above so below, gods are man. Eight stars fell down and the Dragon Broke ended and Selective became Mortal again.

To say that they failed is quite an assumption.

"Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra..." - Mehra Nabisi

"How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives.." - Mannimarco

"While you were fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers..." - R'leyt-harhr, Khajiit, Tender to the Mane

"Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember." - Kier-jo

"Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first." - Mehrunes Dagon

"The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers..." - Mankar Camoran

"Newly invented rituals were utilized to disprove this theory, to no avail. Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them." - Where were you when the Dragon Broke

Now we have Aedra that seemingly have all hatred toward men taken out of them. It's blatantly obvious (to my disdain as an Altmer): They were successful.

Posted by: proweler May 22 2006, 12:24 AM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 21 2006, 09:33 PM)

In the book http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/aedra_daedra.shtml, it clearly states that the gods are not just the Earth Bones, but that "Aedra created the mortal world and are bound to the Earth Bones." Now enter in the factor of "As above, so below." It is not so much a matter of mice and elephants but of younger and older elephants.


What is the Tower?
The Tower is an ideal, which, in our world of myth and magic, means that it is so real that it becomes dangerous. It is the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self,


Dragon Broke
A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic.
(...)
The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."


The Maruhkati Selective showed the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self. As above so below.

QUOTE
Secondly in the "miriade" of ways the Aedra are seen we typically do not have such contridictions as we see in the Mannish/Merrish Aedra. One group fought Lorkhan continually, one is worshipped along side him. Also recall that the aspects of Zenithar and Mara perceived by the Nerevarine were indeed in Mannish form.


Yet in these two factions, there is a king and love, knowledge, strenght, beauty and cunning. How can there be two of those?

Mara, Ama Nin, was a Breton, ofspring of both Man and Mer.
Zenithar, Jon Hawker, was a Redgaurd, Man in body Mer in Mind.
Wulf, Talos, the Enantiomorph, a pair of opposite mirror images.

Like the Imperial doctrine, they are quite ambigious, a combination between the Altmeri and Nordic phanteon.

Simply said the gods are on everybody's side.

QUOTE
One group continually advocates escape from the mortal realm, then other encourages the embrace of mortality (http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml). One group supports the Men continually, one kills countless of them. In a previous time Mer watched Auriel destroy Lorkhan and his followers the Men, and now you say he is Akatosh...

He must have had a great change of heart.


Both know that Mundus isn't a place to say.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/nirn.shtml
The creation of the Mortal Plane, the Mundus, Nirn, is a source of mental anguish to all living things; all souls know deep down they came originally from somewhere else, and that Nirn is a cruel and crucial step to what comes next. What is this next? Some wish to return to the original state, the spirit realm, and that Lorkhan is the Demon that hinders their way; to them Nirn is a prison, an illusion to escape. Others think that Lorkhan created the world as the testing ground for transcendence; to them the spirit realm was already a prison, that true escape is now finally possible.


Lorkhan and Auriel are not the same, but as I said joined at the hip. It's our perception the splices them in two.


QUOTE
But Proweler you forget the other part of that quote: "The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn: As above, so below."


See above.

QUOTE
To say that they failed is quite an assumption.


http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/complete_dragonbroke.shtml
Whether or not the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective were successful is unknown, and any records of their survival were destroyed by the War of Righteousness that ended the Alessian Order a hundred years later.


No more then saying they were sucesfull.

QUOTE
"Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra..." - Mehra Nabisi


This is comming from a Dunmer, one who rejected the Aedra as their ancestors and worship the Daedra as their new and improved Ancestors.

Vehk's Teachings
Remember, even the word "Daedra" started as a youthful rebellion.


Dragon Broke
Several texts survive this timeless period, all (unsurprisingly) conflicting with each other regarding events, people, and regions: wars are mentioned in some that never happen in another, the sun changes color depending on the witness, and the gods either walk among the mortals or they don't.


Those text are the interest [province] of Cyrodiil. Proof of the Lairs that call themselves our ancestors [it was Lorkhan who made Mundus to escape the spirit realm as shown in the Psijic Endevour tought by Veloth].

QUOTE
"How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives.." - Mannimarco


Again they showed everybody the excistance of the Tower.

QUOTE
"Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember." - Kier-jo


Eight stars came falling down, eight selective failed and we don't remember.

QUOTE
"Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first." - Mehrunes Dagon


To walk the path of God-hood, Divinity.

The Progress of Truth
Tribunal relied on profanely enchanted tools to achieve godhead.


Vehk's Teachings
Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.





QUOTE
"The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers..." - Mankar Camoran


Again, Chim is a step on the way. The secret how Mortals can become Gods. Note how Mankar Camoran refers to his followers as destroyers.

Vehk's Teachings
Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.


QUOTE
"Newly invented rituals were utilized to disprove this theory, to no avail. Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them." - Where were you when the Dragon Broke


Again this is the tower of methaphore. By becomming gods themselves, like the Tribunal, they could set themselves up as pure Manish-gods.

QUOTE
Now we have Aedra that seemingly have all hatred toward men taken out of them. It's blatantly obvious (to my disdain as an Altmer): They were successful.


Did they hate man? The Nibenese Slaves had been worshipping them to no end. The Redgaurds still see Lorkhan, Sep, as a silly serpent. The Altmeri and Nordic phanteon were merged for political reasons only and like all new things Lorkhan got populair for a while.

Well up to the point people started to break Dragons and massacre Ayleids.


Posted by: Lycanthropic_Nerev May 22 2006, 02:22 AM

(Looks around, embarrassed.) After reading the rest of the posts, I realize that everything I said was moot. I was rushed when I wrote that. I apologize for my ignorance.

Posted by: Moroni May 22 2006, 06:59 AM

Chuck Norris kept them away. When Bruce Lee killed him, there was nothing to hold them back. However, teh people of Tamriel got mad and killed Bruce Lee in their anger. That, my son, is how Bruce Lee died.

Posted by: Polycarp May 22 2006, 07:29 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)

The Maruhkati Selective showed the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self. As above so below.

And yet Mannimarco says from them he learned his mystery. If he became the God of Worms from their example, one might conclude they very likely were successful as well.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
Yet in these two factions, there is a king and love, knowledge, strenght, beauty and cunning. How can there be two of those?

There cannot, the reason why they had to be replaced.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
Simply said the gods are on everybody's side.

I'd like to see you try to tell the Altmeri and for that matter Auri-El that when they were busy annihilating and enslaving the Mannish race because they were consistently aligned with Lorkhan.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
Both know that Mundus isn't a place to say.

I beg to differ entirely.

"Some Aedra were disappointed and bitter in their loss, and angry with Shezarr, and with all creation, for they felt Shezarr had lied and tricked them. These Aedra, the Gods of the Aldmer, led by Auri-El, were disgusted by their enfeebled selves, and by what they had created. 'Everything is spoiled, for now, and for all time, and the most we can do is teach the Elven Races to suffer nobly, with dignity, and chastise ourselves for our folly, and avenge ourselves upon Shezarr and his allies.' Thus are the Gods of the Elves dark and brooding, and thus are the Elves ever dissatisfied with mortality, and always proud and stoic despite the harshness of this cruel and indifferent world."

"Other Aedra looked upon creation, and were well pleased. These Aedra, the Gods of Men and Beast Folk, led by Akatosh, praised and cherished their wards, the Mortal Races. 'We have suffered, and are diminished, for all time, but the mortal world we have made is glorious, filling our hearts and spirits with hope. Let us teach the Mortal Races to live well, to cherish beauty and honor, and to love one another as we love them.' Thus are the Gods of Men tender and patient, and thus are Men and Beast Folk great in heart for joy or suffering, and ambitious for greater wisdom and a better world." - http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
This is comming from a Dunmer, one who rejected the Aedra as their ancestors and worship the Daedra as their new and improved Ancestors.

Indeed, yet it is rare that someone not only calls the Aedra liars, but goes way beyond that. Notice she says the Middle Dawn is "proof of the deceit."

and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra..." - Mehra Nabisi

Quite a bold statement.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
Eight stars came falling down, eight selective failed and we don't remember.

I will address this later.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
To walk the path of God-hood, Divinity.

Recognize the context here.

"Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first." - Mehrunes Dagon

Notice they existed according to Dagon before they walked the path of Godhead. Also remember he is referring to mortals who after the Cleansing at least according to Mankar shall be very much like the gods. Hence the reference can be to counsel a set of mortals to walk the path (as other mortals did before) of Godhead.

The Progress of Truth
Tribunal relied on profanely enchanted tools to achieve godhead.


Vehk's Teachings
Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.


And hence we see the Maruhkati as the first of a long set of mortals who achieved the Godhead. Mannimarco learned his mystery successfully for a reason: it seems the Maruhkati did everything right.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
Again this is the tower of methaphore. By becomming gods themselves, like the Tribunal, they could set themselves up as pure Manish-gods...
Did they hate man? The Nibenese Slaves had been worshipping them to no end. The Redgaurds still see Lorkhan, Sep, as a silly serpent.

Indeed, however remember that Men only began revering the Aedra for the one reason that they had contact with the Mer.

"Lorkhan made armies out of the weakest souls and named them Men, and they brought Sithis into every quarter... granted Auriel his Bow and Shield, so that he might save the Aldmer from the hordes of Men... The Men dragged Lorkhan's body away and swore blood vengeance on the heirs of Auriel for all time." - http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml

Men would not have anything to do with the Aedra unless if they were forced by slavery. Auri-El during the entire time period deals only with the Mer (fights for them, ascends so they might know how, etc.).

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 12:24 AM)
The Altmeri and Nordic phanteon were merged for political reasons only and like all new things Lorkhan got populair for a while. Well up to the point people started to break Dragons and massacre Ayleids.

Indeed, that was the time Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars.

While thousands of years ago the Aedra fought men with absolute dedication now they heal them in the Chapels. Those who do not serve the Empire of Men the Nine will not even give the time of day. For an age they fought their war against Lorkhan and now they are worshipped in the same lands, even in the same Temples. There can be no rationalizing between the passionate Merish gods and gods who do nothing but serve the Empire of Men.

For a moment consider the phenomenon of the Middle Dawn, the Hurling Disk. You may recall it is the only time that Mnemoli may enter and shine out as a pure blue star.

"Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel..." - Book of Hours

You may also recall the Hurling Disk is the Wheel without its spokes (see http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml or Solin's paper "http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rhod0091/mnemoligate.html"). Now I ask you, if the Wheel existed without the spokes for this long, then suddenly they reappeared, Are these spokes the same as the ones before? After the arbitrary count of one thousand and eight years by Council reckoning, I should say absolutely not. I ask again, do you know for certain which stars fell? And now the Empire of men has existed unchecked for milinnea, for truly:

"Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars." - Hestra

"Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember." - Kier-jo

Posted by: 1999 May 22 2006, 11:51 AM

QUOTE(Vivos Dalen @ May 15 2006, 08:45 AM)

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(B @ May 13 2006, 01:51 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think that might be as good as it gets.

We have made some progress, but not as much as most of us would've hoped.
My opinions:

The amulet was not meant to keep the daedra out, the amulet is as mentioned before a microcosm of mundus(the tower and spokes) and an artefact of sympathetic magick. As above so bellow. Actions through the amulet are reflected in mundus itself. It is a powerful refection of *what is*, so powerful that it has incarnate power.
The amulet(tower key ) represents mundus,it is the blending of alessas soul into amulet that mirrors the blending of Lorkhans soul into creation.

I think it may have been far more potent in the hands of humans than the hands of the Alyeds,despite they being its creators.

The amulet could be the attempt of the Alyeds to impose their own oversoul upon mundus but due to their philosophical distaste for Lorkhan and the elvish mythos they were not willing to sanctify it with a sympathetic sacrifice as she did.

After Aleissas sacrifice the amulet became a even more perfect replica. The elves would not take this step. They would not philosophically be inclined to walk Shors path, but Shors path *was walked* therefore by denying aspects of the creation they created a flawed mirror. Aleissa perfected this.

The emperor relationship to the amulet parallels Lorkhans relationship with mundus.An act of perpetual sacrifice.

After morrowind the heart was weakened/destroyed which diluted the barriers but it the ACT not the FACT of the emperors death which allowed the invasion to commence.

If we keep the idea of the amulet being the Mundus in microcosom we can see:

It is not that the emperor was assassinated which was so important, it was that the mythic dawn(representing Dagon) killed the Emperor (representing Shor) and took the amulet (representing Mundus.)
A random assassination would not be so significant but this murder had MEANING.

This microcosm influenced the macrocosm.

This leads to a new understanding of Martins actions

The very act of Martins sacrifice to the amulet parallels Lorkhans sacrifice to create/protect? the mundus.

The dragon stone represents the heart directly; it is remnants of the sacrifice of martin/lorkan to the protection of the mundus.Martin acted the role of Lorkan and made a sympathetic sacrifice
On a more random note this also leads to the idea that Akatosh may be a consequence of creation not a cause.

I think it's more likely the amulet created Akatosh rather than vice versa,Akatosh may well be the physical manifestation of Aleissas covenant.


In short you are saying that the assassination of the Emperor was the Ritual Sacrifice of an unwilling victim that turned the tables from the earlier willing Self Sacrifice by Alleissa whose act favored the Aedra to an ambience that favored the Daedra? and presumably idf Martin then made a further willing sacrifice then that would turn the balance back again?

Earlier I suggested that the Towers were a power source rather than a conduit, and given the apparent relative amounts of avaiable power in the various realms this might seem inadequate, but basic strength might not be the only determining factor. Just as a key does not have to be as strong as the door. In fact a key can be made of the most fragile substance imaginable and stilll work provided it fits the requirements of the lock mechanism? Therefore this question of sacrifices (note the quote re " the weak will) is interesting to me.

[edit] Phew, that was a lot of reading over these pages to make one little comment!

Posted by: proweler May 22 2006, 05:56 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 22 2006, 06:29 AM)

And yet Mannimarco says from them he learned his mystery. If he became the God of Worms from their example, one might conclude they very likely were successful as well.


They were successfull as they became gods. The just did not become the Aedra, they wanted to replace the worship of the Aedar but not the Aedra themselves. Afterall Manimacro (who used the lessons learned from the Selective) became a God and not an Aedra.

They did however fail in the end, the Dragon Broke ended, the Selective apperently disapeard from history and the Allesian Order soon fell down under it's own weight.

QUOTE
There cannot, the reason why they had to be replaced.


If love could not be on both sides, there would be no need for replacement. The Selective could not stand that the Altmer knew love aswell. Because that means love was an Elvish ideal and thus bad. It's an extreme form of rebelion.

QUOTE
I'd like to see you try to tell the Altmeri and for that matter Auri-El that when they were busy annihilating and enslaving the Mannish race because they were consistently aligned with Lorkhan.


Shezarr and the Eight
The isolated humans eventually begin to venerate the pantheon of their masters, or at least assimilate so much of High Elven religious practices into their native traditions that the two become indistinguishable.
(...)
Part of the package meant that she had to become the High Priestess of Akatosh, as well.

Akatosh was an Aldmeri god, and Alessia’s subjects were as-yet unwilling to renounce their worship of the Elven pantheon. She found herself in a very sensitive political situation. She needed to keep the Nords as her allies, but they were (at that time) fiercely opposed to any adoration of Elven deities.
(...)
Therefore, concessions were made and Empress Alessia instituted a new religion: the Eight Divines, an elegant, well-researched synthesis of both pantheons, Nordic and Aldmeri.


That this synthesis is possible already shows they are much alike if not the same. Considering there are 9 planets in the Orry, one for each god this makes sense.

QUOTE
I beg to differ entirely.


Verry good, but besides the point.

QUOTE
Indeed, yet it is rare that someone not only calls the Aedra liars, but goes way beyond that. Notice she says the Middle Dawn is "proof of the deceit."

and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra..." - Mehra Nabisi

Quite a bold statement.


In the Midledawn the Selective showed that a return to the spirit realm as taught by the Aldmer was not the solution, they showed that people could become gods without beeing pure and perfect. This had already been taught to the Chimer by Veloth under the guidance of Boethia.

"Proof of the lairs that call themselvee our Ancestors", the Dunmer don't consider the Aedra to be their ancestors even before the Selective broke the Dragon.

QUOTE
And hence we see the Maruhkati as the first of a long set of mortals who achieved the Godhead. Mannimarco learned his mystery successfully for a reason: it seems the Maruhkati did everything right.


Again, they followed the a variant of the Psijic Endevour. They did not become Aedra, they did not replace them. They became gods, they used the same principles as used by the Dwemer, Talos, the Tribunal, King of Worms,

The Love Letter
You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE [Chim], that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph.


QUOTE
Indeed, however remember that Men only began revering the Aedra for the one reason that they had contact with the Mer.


The Redgaurds follow a verry typical Altmeri form of Religion, based around Tall Papa rather then Sep. They never even met the Altmer.

QUOTE
While thousands of years ago the Aedra fought men with absolute dedication now they heal them in the Chapels. Those who do not serve the Empire of Men the Nine will not even give the time of day. For an age they fought their war against Lorkhan and now they are worshipped in the same lands, even in the same Temples. There can be no rationalizing between the passionate Merish gods and gods who do nothing but serve the Empire of Men.


You shouldn't think of Man as a single beeing, hunders of generations have past between the convention and the present. Man were converted back to the Altmeri views again, there is nothing strange about that.

---

Damd I feel like I'm talking to an Altmer Marakhuti that can't stand that Man worships the same gods as he does. You apear to be looking for an excuse to call the Aedra false gods but you look at the wrong material.

Apart from Death there are two ways to leave Mundus.

Either by returning to the spirit realm, a process that requires an individual to store up huge amounts of stasis untill he himselves has enhough possibility to just be outside of Mundus. The downside to this process is that for each amout of Magicka, there is an eqaul amount of Void. To leave Mundus by the spirit realm you have to put somebody else down into the Void.
The torture punishment in Mankar's Paradise works much like it. To save one prisoner you have to push down another.

The otherway is completing the Psijic Endevour, originally initiated by Lorkhan. The Aedra are often called Lairs because they (or more likely their followers) hide this from history. It had first been taught to the Chimer by the Daedra and in the later Era's the Selective showed to everybody in the world that this was the other way to get out.

---

Interestingly Auriel's ascension is shown in the ruins of Kemel-Ze and a similair picture returns in the Egg of Time - the book about the Dwemer plans to become gods. Even more interesting is that Auriel became a god out of the grey Aurbis of the pre-Dawn Era, much like the Psijic Endevour makes a person a god out of the grey Mundus.

From this perspective the Aedra never lied about anything, it was their followers who didn't understand.

Posted by: Gez May 22 2006, 10:29 PM

I wouldn't put too much credit on the Monomyth as a resource. It's as much Altmeri propaganda as Trials of Saint Alessia is Imperial Propaganda.

The Altmer have an unresistable need to feel superior to all others. The other Mer (all corrupt) are below them, and the Men are in the Altmeri point of view somewhere between the tick and the mudcrab. That's why they take offense when Men use the word "aedra", claiming the ancestors are not the ancestors of Men. They just can't stand the idea that the Mannish races are from Ehlnofey stock too.

It's the base of their religion. Altmer are gods by birthright, and if they are mortal, it's because the universe has been unfair to them. This is thus probably the fault of these damn humans because they don't whine about their mortal status, so they're the investigators.

The Aedra siding with the Mer and slaughtering Men is in my opinion as reliable a story as Akatosh making a covenant with Alessia. Less reliable, in fact, since we have actually witnessed several events that gives credence to the Alessian story (despite the known contradictions), which is more than can be said about the events of the Monomyth.

Posted by: 1999 May 23 2006, 10:48 AM

QUOTE(Gez @ May 22 2006, 04:29 PM)

I wouldn't put too much credit on the Monomyth as a resource. It's as much Altmeri propaganda as Trials of Saint Alessia is Imperial Propaganda.

The Altmer have an unresistable need to feel superior to all others. The other Mer (all corrupt) are below them, and the Men are in the Altmeri point of view somewhere between the tick and the mudcrab. That's why they take offense when Men use the word "aedra", claiming the ancestors are not the ancestors of Men. They just can't stand the idea that the Mannish races are from Ehlnofey stock too.

It's the base of their religion. Altmer are gods by birthright, and if they are mortal, it's because the universe has been unfair to them. This is thus probably the fault of these damn humans because they don't whine about their mortal status, so they're the investigators.

The Aedra siding with the Mer and slaughtering Men is in my opinion as reliable a story as Akatosh making a covenant with Alessia. Less reliable, in fact, since we have actually witnessed several events that gives credence to the Alessian story (despite the known contradictions), which is more than can be said about the events of the Monomyth.


Do you somehow get the feeling that when we get to TES XI (via expansions and mini-games) some new lore will surface that changes the balance of thought yet again? Is Someone 'avvin' a larf?

Posted by: Polycarp May 23 2006, 04:21 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 05:56 PM)

They were successfull as they became gods. The just did not become the Aedra, they wanted to replace the worship of the Aedar but not the Aedra themselves. Afterall Manimacro (who used the lessons learned from the Selective) became a God and not an Aedra.

"Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of." - Where were you...

Their goal was the Aedra, either to change them or replace them. I will address this more later.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 05:56 PM)
They did however fail in the end, the Dragon Broke ended, the Selective apperently disapeard from history and the Allesian Order soon fell down under it's own weight.

"Symmachus had apartments in a magnificent house two blocks from the palace, past the temple. (“The Temple of the One,” he identified as they passed it, an ancient Nordic cult which Tiber Septim had revived. He said that Barenziah would be expected to become a member should she prove acceptable to the Emperor.)" - The Real Barenziah

"Not since the Selective have we seen so much dangerous interest in the shezzarite power-symbols." - Nu-Mantia Intercept

Do not for the sake of mortals everywhere consider Lorkhan and the Alessian Order a thing of the past. It is very real, and the Temple of the One (though in some disrepair) yet stands today.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 22 2006, 05:56 PM)
You apear to be looking for an excuse to call the Aedra false gods but you look at the wrong material.

Proweler, I am staring at the base beliefs of scholars of this forum for ages. Even in the days of the Theoretical Whirling School of Vivec this was a topic (though addressed for different reasons). I will borrow the work of one of my old adversaries in debate Solin, and attempt to show why the current Aedra cannot be the same as in the past. After that do with it what you will, I have real life to attend to.

First observe the http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rhod0091/images/whirling/wheel.gif. The base concept of Elder Scrolls Lore, 8 spokes with 16 spaces, a rim and a hub. Now picture a new world, caused by a "Dragon Break" or "Middle Dawn" depending on your preference of name.

"Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk." - The Book of Hours

It is the http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rhod0091/images/whirling/hurling.gif, its most notable feature being the absolute absence of the Earth Bones from the picture, and hence the gods that are bound to them.

"The middle dawn is a return to the chaos of the Dawn Era that occurs during a Dragon Break. In the year 1E1200 a Dragon Break occured. This particular break was described by Where were you when the Dragon Broke? as being caused by the Murahkati Selective's attempt to remove the Elvish influence from their chief deity... (1) During the middle dawn that followed the peoples of Tamriel tracked the fall of eight stars... The plane(t)s appear as stars in the night sky correlate with the eight falling stars during the middle dawn. The falling of these eight stars is representitive of a restructuring of the Wheel. Thus the Hurling Disc is the state of the Wheel during a Dragon Break." - Solin, Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk

Realize than for the arbitrary count of one thousand and eight years the world was without the laws of the Aedra. During that time period 8 stars fell so precisely that that was how mortals kept some bearing of existence. The Earth Bones had dissolved and for all intents and purposes the Aedra had "died."

"Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call 'Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime." - The Book of Hours

"Mnemoli, being un-worshiped, can only explore the Wheel during a Dragon Break because during such a period it is not necessary to be worshipped. Worship is the "key and the lock of the Deadra" (2). It is how they slip through the Seed-Apple, star, Latice. The Hurling Disk contains no Lattice... Mnemoli's seperation from the world building is the significance of Mnemoli. Mnemoli can enter and leave the structure of the Wheel around Mundus during the breaking of the Dragon . The spokes form a barrier she cannot breach, the Seed-Apple Latice. Thus the Hurling Disk is her Gate." - Solin, Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk

Further proof of the absolute breaking of the Spokes is the appearence of Mnemoli in the sky. With the Aedra in place, she has no power to enter, however when they are removed...

"If Mnemoli, and outsider, can enter, can one leave?" - Solin, Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk

An interesting question indeed, one that should interest some Altmeri parties. Later Solin in detail explains the path of "reaching heaven by violence," however that is not what we came here to address.

"Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world." - Mehra Nabisi

"Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars." - The Emperor Hestra (interestingly some of the Rune Stones around Cyrodiil which have not been discerned in terms of their origins bear the name "Hestra," I at least thought that was interesting)

I am almost appalled that I have had to go so indepth on something scholars have taken for granted for ages, but here it is. The Earth Bones in their old form are gone, Eight stars for each opponent of Lorkhan's ideal as stated by a practitioner of the Psijic Endeavor, and Cyrodiil is an Empire across the stars.

To Gez, I cannot begin to even laugh at your summary of the uselessness of the Monomyth, as to this day Nords still call Auri-El a demon and fought against him and his followers for ages, OMG. Do even the least research into that time period from Nordic, Altmeri, or whatever the heck you want and you will find the Aedra always come up on the side of the Mer. The Monomyth is the standard creation myth wherever you go much like the accounts of the Merethic Era.

I am officially done here. Do what you will with this information. No doubt it will come up again later.

Posted by: proweler May 23 2006, 06:47 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 23 2006, 03:21 PM)

"Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of." - Where were you...

Their goal was the Aedra, either to change them or replace them. I will address this more later.


And what the Aurbis showed them was the Tower or a staff. The secret to becomming Gods themselves. They wanted to remove parts of the Aedra but found something better.

QUOTE
Do not for the sake of mortals everywhere consider Lorkhan and the Alessian Order a thing of the past. It is very real, and the Temple of the One (though in some disrepair) yet stands today.


The Allesian Order fell down, go argue with the history books about that one. That the selectives discovery lives on is a given, it was what the world was made for afterall. They weren't the only ones to discover the Tower though, Vhek did exactly the same thing.

QUOTE
Proweler, I am staring at the base beliefs of scholars of this forum for ages.


So how come you don't see that the Selective was trying to Endevour and nothing more?

Though the Selective and Artaeum diverge on many matters of the Endeavour ~ http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/xal_day_counted_hours.shtml


QUOTE
A"If Mnemoli, and outsider, can enter, can one leave?" - Solin, Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk


The Dawn Era ended when the gods left Mundus and time became liniar from that moment on. The Hurling Disk, becomes the Hub of the Wheel the moment there are no gods fully present.
The same happend during the Warp of the West, the Brassgod walked Mundus up to the point that he disapear/was destroyed and time moved normally again.
So it'd not be weird to assume the selective either left Mundus or stopped beeing gods. Seeing how they remaind present for thousand eight years I reckon it is the latter. Vivec managed to pull it off without keeping the Dragon Broke for the whole time.

What we saw as gods after the convention were the sacreficial parts of the Aedra. The parts that are part of Mundus, the parts that are mixed up, messed up somewhat grey on the edges.

The spokes are not the gods but their sacrefice.

QUOTE
"Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world." - Mehra Nabisi


Again you keep forgetting that the Dunmer did not like the Aedra long before the Selective came about. When they speak of Sinners and Lairs they talk about the Aedra not the Selective. This sentence either suggest that the 8 stars were the eight spokes (one star for each spoke) reattaching or the eight Selective gods (one replacement for each Aedra) falling down to Mundus again.

Either way it means it was all over for them.

Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again.”


They knew what happend and know how to do it again because it was taught to them by Veloth. It was the Endevour! Nothing more. No fancy replacement schemes, straight and "simple" apotheosis.

QUOTE
"Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars." - The Emperor Hestra


And it stopped beeing an Empire across the stars.

QUOTE
I am almost appalled that I have had to go so indepth on something scholars have taken for granted for ages, but here it is. The Earth Bones in their old form are gone, Eight stars for each opponent of Lorkhan's ideal as stated by a practitioner of the Psijic Endeavor, and Cyrodiil is an Empire across the stars


There is nothing but misinterpreation of Mehra Nabisi words suggesting the Gods we now know aren't the original Aedra. Mehra calls them Liars because that is what they are to the Dunmer, the Aedra had been Lairs the moment they followed Veloth.

Posted by: B May 23 2006, 07:22 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 23 2006, 10:21 AM)

Polycarp's ideas and explanations go here.

Do keep coming back. Your explanations help me decipher some of the contradictions with the different gods. I kept asking for opinions on whether Auri-El really was Akatosh. I've enjoyed the responses.

Posted by: Polycarp May 23 2006, 08:05 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 23 2006, 06:47 PM)
So how come you don't see that the Selective was trying to Endevour and nothing more?

Because the only thing the reference mentions is that they were using the Tower to replace the Aedra, it even says the tower split into Eight pieces.

"Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic. The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke." - Where were you...

QUOTE(proweler @ May 23 2006, 06:47 PM)
So how come you don't see that the The spokes are not the gods but their sacrefice.

Absolutely not.

"Aedra created the mortal world and are bound to the Earth Bones." - Aedra and Daedra

The Aedra are yet bound to the spokes.

QUOTE(proweler @ May 23 2006, 06:47 PM)
This sentence either suggest that the 8 stars were the eight spokes (one star for each spoke) reattaching or the eight Selective gods (one replacement for each Aedra) falling down to Mundus again."


"Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra. Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world." - Where were you...

Read the context very carefully. Notice our speaker goes straight from "Aedra" to "Eight Stars fell." Now think of the word "iniquity"... now tie it to Lorkhan. Now notice the word "deceit." Now observe that word is directly tied to "Accounts of the Middle Dawn" as "proof". Aedra=Eight Stars, deceit because of Middle Dawn, Liars who are not Aedra. Think about the context and tell me what you immediately perceive.

And yes I'm still leaving this topic .

Posted by: proweler May 23 2006, 09:26 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 23 2006, 07:05 PM)

Because the only thing the reference mentions is that they were using the Tower to replace the Aedra, it even says the tower split into Eight pieces.

"Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic. The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke." - Where were you...


Followed by: "The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke. The non-linearity of the Dawn Era had returned. Tamriel slept through the disaster, which 'lasted one thousand and eight years', until the pieces of the tower came to rest on the mortal plane. "

Suggesting they became Gods, walking Mundus like the Aedra did in the Dawn Era, untill the pieces came back to Mundus.

QUOTE
Absolutely not.

"Aedra created the mortal world and are bound to the Earth Bones." - Aedra and Daedra

The Aedra are yet bound to the spokes.


Non Liniar Time - Hurling Disk - Gods on Mundus
Liniar Time - The Wheel - Gods not on Mundus

http://til.gamingsource.net/history/dawn.shtml
When Magic (Magnus), architect of the plans for the mortal world, decides to terminate this project, the Gods convene at the Adamantine Tower (Direnni Tower, the oldest known structure in Tamriel) and decide what to do. Most leave when Magic does. Others sacrifice themselves into other forms to stay (the Ehlnofey). In most accounts, Lorkhan is condemned to exile in the mortal realms, and his heart is torn out and cast from the Tower. Where it lands a Volcano forms. With Magic (in the Mythic Sense) gone, the Cosmos stabilizes. Elven history, finally linear, begins (ME2500).


http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml
Auri-El (King of the Aldmer): To make up for it, Auri-El led the original Aldmer against the armies of Lorkhan in mythic times, vanquishing that tyrant and establishing the first kingdoms of the Altmer, Altmora and Old Ehlnofey. He then ascended to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane.



QUOTE
"Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra. Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world." - Where were you...

Read the context very carefully. Notice our speaker goes straight from "Aedra" to "Eight Stars fell." Now think of the word "iniquity"... now tie it to Lorkhan. Now notice the word "deceit." Now observe that word is directly tied to "Accounts of the Middle Dawn" as "proof". Aedra=Eight Stars, deceit because of Middle Dawn, Liars who are not Aedra. Think about the context and tell me what you immediately perceive.


The Dunmer consider(ed) the Daedra to be "Our Stronger, Better Ancestors", to them the Aedra were lair right from the start, boethia spoke with Trinimac's Voice on their exodus and made that clear. The Dunmer couldn't careless if somebody decided to change the Aedra.

To the Dunmer the Middle Dawn is the proof that Anu is not the only way to escape Mundus, something the (Altmeri) Aedra never told them about because they loathed Lorkhans Endevour

Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again


The Dunmer know what the Selective did and know how to do it themselves.

What is the Psijic Endeavor?

The basis for the teachings of the Prophet Veloth, founder of present day Morrowind and father of Dunmeri culture. Veloth describes the Psijic Endeavor as a process of glorious apotheosis, where time itself is bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'. Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.

It should be noted that, while Veloth is given credit for establishing the anti-laws that govern the Endeavor, this process has its antecedents in the teachings of the Black Hands Mephala, Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, and, of course, Lorkhan, through that lord's association with PSJJJJ.


Like the Dawn, in a state of Chim Time itselves goes unbound and a person is free of the spokes, the strictures of the hub, the world egg



Posted by: Polycarp May 23 2006, 09:51 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 23 2006, 09:26 PM)

in the Dawn Era, untill the pieces came back to Mundus.

Indeed, but what were the pieces? Did the Maruhkati walk on themselves? Or are the pieces of the Tower representative of something?

QUOTE(proweler @ May 23 2006, 09:26 PM)
The Dunmer consider(ed) the Daedra to be "Our Stronger, Better Ancestors", to them the Aedra were lair right from the start, boethia spoke with Trinimac's Voice on their exodus and made that clear. The Dunmer couldn't careless if somebody decided to change the Aedra.

To the Dunmer the Middle Dawn is the proof that Anu is not the only way to escape Mundus, something the (Altmeri) Aedra never told them about because they loathed Lorkhans Endevour

The Dunmer know what the Selective did and know how to do it themselves.


Yet you avoid the real issue. The point isn't about the Dunmer and their opinions on ascention, the point is that she flat out refers the Aedra to the Eight falling stars (which you could not stop insisting indicated the Maruhkati's fall to Mundus). Beyond everything the Dunmer said the Eight Stars were the Aedra, even specifically mentioned by saying something so implicative as this: "one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world." I do not doubt they are speaking of Lorkhan (and his plans) superiority over the Aedra's. And yet if you read the Mannish part of the Monomyth you will see they do not even value ascention in the same way as the Merrish Aedra. And surely the Aedra of Pre-Middle Dawn had a plan.

"Other Aedra looked upon creation, and were well pleased. These Aedra, the Gods of Men and Beast Folk, led by Akatosh, praised and cherished their wards, the Mortal Races. 'We have suffered, and are diminished, for all time, but the mortal world we have made is glorious, filling our hearts and spirits with hope. Let us teach the Mortal Races to live well, to cherish beauty and honor, and to love one another as we love them.' Thus are the Gods of Men tender and patient, and thus are Men and Beast Folk great in heart for joy or suffering, and ambitious for greater wisdom and a better world." - Shezarr's Song

Now compare that to...

"Some Aedra were disappointed and bitter in their loss, and angry with Shezarr, and with all creation, for they felt Shezarr had lied and tricked them. These Aedra, the Gods of the Aldmer, led by Auri-El, were disgusted by their enfeebled selves, and by what they had created. 'Everything is spoiled, for now, and for all time, and the most we can do is teach the Elven Races to suffer nobly, with dignity, and chastise ourselves for our folly, and avenge ourselves upon Shezarr and his allies.' Thus are the Gods of the Elves dark and brooding, and thus are the Elves ever dissatisfied with mortality, and always proud and stoic despite the harshness of this cruel and indifferent world." - Shezarr's Song

Sound familiar? You just quoted a passage that said Auri-El fought men then ascended to show the Mer how (mind you from a neutral text). Now compare that with the post Dragon Break Mannish Aedra.

Now go back and read the "stars fell, one for each iniquity." Anything clicking yet?

Posted by: proweler May 24 2006, 12:03 AM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 23 2006, 08:51 PM)

Indeed, but what were the pieces? Did the Maruhkati walk on themselves? Or are they representative of something?


I know several interpretations but taking one we both agree on (I assume you do):

The falling of these eight stars is representitive of a restructuring of the Wheel. Thus the Hurling Disc is the state of the Wheel during a Dragon Break." - Solin, Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk


The wheel was put back together, obviously as the Non-Liniarity ended.

QUOTE
Yet you avoid the real issue. The point isn't about the Dunmer and their opinions on ascention, the point is that she flat out refers the Aedra to the Eight falling stars (which you could not stop insisting indicated the Maruhkati's fall to Mundus).


Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world.


As I said before, the Selective tried to alter the Aedra and discoverd the Tower instead. This would allow them to set themselves up as living gods, they could set themselves up as the Eight Divines and replace the Aedra by pure Man-Gods just as the Tribunal replaced their Anticipations.

Eight Selectives, one for each Aedra in the Phanteon.

---

Or by the definition given by Solin: Eight spokes, one for each Aedra.

QUOTE
Beyond everything the Dunmer said the Eight Stars were the Aedra, even specifically mentioned by saying something so implicative as this: "one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world."


She does not say the Stars are the Aedra, they say there is one star for each Aedra.

Read the following sentence: "Eight Ambasadors walked across the Imperial city, one for each province." does this say the Ambasadors are their province? No, it says that of each province one Ambasadors is walking in the Imperial City.

Read the following sentence: "Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world." does this say the stars are the iniquity? No, it says that for each Aedra, a star is falling onto Tamriel.

Now what is the relation between the Stars and the Aedra? Are they their sacreficed parts, the spokes, or Marakhuti falling out of the Aether. Either way the Dragon Broke stopped when they hit Mundus and things went on as if nothing had happend.

QUOTE
(Shezzars Song snipped)

Sound familiar? You just quoted a passage that said Auri-El fought men then ascended to show the Mer how (mind you from a neutral text). Now compare that with the post Dragon Break Mannish Aedra.


I fail to see what you are getting at.
While the text isn't dated, I think it was written before the Selective came about. About thousand years before the Break the Allesian Order started to supress the Altmeri elements in the Eight Divines - and thus call the Altmeri gods evil and the Eight good and manish. It was exactly because the evil Auriel was the noble Akatosh that the Selective tried to change him.

---

This contradiction excisted even before the Selective came about. While Lorkhan and Akatosh were clearly opposing each other, both had their "Strong God", Kyne and Trinimac, both had their "Lover" Mara, both had their "Scribe" Jhunal and Xarxes, ect.

How can these gods be on both sides of the conflict? Because they are et'Ada, they are bound to their sphere and not so much to other Aedra. They profit from it whom ever choses to worship them, regardless of their side in a conflict.

The Nordic God of ransom would be the perfect example. He learns the Nords to have mercy and sell their prisoners and at the same time the Altmer who praid to their variant of Stendar will praise him for the Mercy of the Nords.

QUOTE
And yet if you read the Mannish part of the Monomyth you will see they do not even value ascention in the same way as the Merrish Aedra. And surely the Aedra of Pre-Middle Dawn had a plan.


Even though the myth is called Shezarrs song, the Imperial Doctrine isn't really Mannish. It started out as a synthesis between Altmeri and Nordic religions and then had some of it's Altmeri Elements removed. Afterall Shezarrs song says: "These Aedra, the Gods of Men and Beast Folk, led by Akatosh" and not "These Aedra, the Gods of Men and Beast Folk, led by Shezarr".

The Imperial Doctrine is also subject to fabrication blatant propaganda. The way the Aedra had sufferd but were content with the results of their suffering, is much how the Nibenses slaves had sufferd under the Ayleids but could now rejoice the splendour of the Allesian Order.

The did not write of ascension either because they had never heard of it or didn't want to go with the "evil" Altmeri spirit realm. There is no ascension in the Nordic myths either, just a Meadhall.
---

Nothing like a bit of politics and a bit of Grey Maybe that makes things nice and hazy.

Posted by: Polycarp May 24 2006, 11:39 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 24 2006, 12:03 AM)

Now what is the relation between the Stars and the Aedra? Are they their sacreficed parts, the spokes, or Marakhuti falling out of the Aether. Either way the Dragon Broke stopped when they hit Mundus and things went on as if nothing had happend.

Or it could be interpreted (in my opinion more readily) that the Aedra fell (the eight pieces of the Tower that the Maruhkati danced on) and it appeared as if nothing had occured. The stars change, and we do not remember. But no matter.

"The falling of these eight stars is representitive of a restructuring of the Wheel. Thus the Hurling Disc is the state of the Wheel during a Dragon Break." - Solin

Now consider if they were indeed replaced.

And yet now I understand one thing, that MK set this up magnificently so it could be interpretted both ways. He keeps it vague enough so that the final conclusion truly is:

"Whether or not the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective were successful is unknown." - Where were you when the Dragon Broke?

While it seems flagrantly obvious to me that they were successful (by the Empire's continued power afterward and the seeming swing from Merrish to Mannish patronage), it seems it can also be appearent that they were not. Different interpretations of every line coming out of that book.

However I do wonder why MK would even mention it at all if it was false. We never quite know what is going on in that brain of his and I fear Bethesda doesn't know either . So the idea that they weren't replaced may win by default.

That's the way I goes though I guess. However, before I address the ever building mass of work in real life, allow me to post an excerpt from Kier-jo:

"Tiber Septim was seen in more than one part of Tamriel at the same time and you are content.
Stormcrown was a Breton, no a Nord, no an Atmoran, and you sit and play in the sand.
A numidium rises in the West and does Eight Things for the Psijics and you do not question.
Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember.
You read the words of the Sermon, but you are blind to the truths between them.
The darkness is reborn, crowned and conquering, and you pull the covers tighter and sleep."

Stay aware, for there is more to this than the average mortal perceives. I see the gates of Oblivion opening, no... the gates of Dawn's Beauty opening. I see a dark time.

Lorkhan is coming... and if I am right, the Aedra will not intervene.

Posted by: 1999 May 24 2006, 01:14 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 24 2006, 05:39 AM)

Or it could be interpreted (in my opinion more readily) that the Aedra fell (the eight pieces of the Tower that the Maruhkati danced on) and it appeared as if nothing had occured. The stars change, and we do not remember. But no matter.

"The falling of these eight stars is representitive of a restructuring of the Wheel. Thus the Hurling Disc is the state of the Wheel during a Dragon Break." - Solin

Now consider if they were indeed replaced.

And yet now I understand one thing, that MK set this up magnificently so it could be interpretted both ways. He keeps it vague enough so that the final conclusion truly is:

"Whether or not the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective were successful is unknown." - Where were you when the Dragon Broke?

While it seems flagrantly obvious to me that they were successful (by the Empire's continued power afterward and the seeming swing from Merrish to Mannish patronage), it seems it can also be appearent that they were not. Different interpretations of every line coming out of that book.

However I do wonder why MK would even mention it at all if it was false. We never quite know what is going on in that brain of his and I fear Bethesda doesn't know either . So the idea that they weren't replaced may win by default.

That's the way I goes though I guess. However, before I address the ever building mass of work in real life, allow me to post an excerpt from Kier-jo:

"Tiber Septim was seen in more than one part of Tamriel at the same time and you are content.
Stormcrown was a Breton, no a Nord, no an Atmoran, and you sit and play in the sand.
A numidium rises in the West and does Eight Things for the Psijics and you do not question.
Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember.
You read the words of the Sermon, but you are blind to the truths between them.
The darkness is reborn, crowned and conquering, and you pull the covers tighter and sleep."

Stay aware, for there is more to this than the average mortal perceives. I see the gates of Oblivion opening, no... the gates of Dawn's Beauty opening. I see a dark time.

Lorkhan is coming... and if I am right, the Aedra will not intervene.


Polycarp, did you really mean to write this? -
QUOTE
to this day Nords still call Auri-El a demon and fought against him and his followers for ages, OMG. Do even the least research into that time period from Nordic, Altmeri, or whatever the heck you want and you will find the Aedra always come up on the side of the Mer. The Monomyth is the standard creation myth wherever you go much like the accounts of the Merethic Era.


It's just that you main argument seems to be that the Velothi mer oppose the Aedra, which would be matural given their attachment to the 'Good' Daedra Azura and friends. On the other hand they were running /exiles from Summerset Isle and the other mer, so I think that you have to distinguish between them. The reasons why might stem from events even earlier that I have yet to read up on in their entirety as I have not yet played Arena but I wonder if you and Proweler are not so caught up in your fascinating didactic tactics that you are both missing (rightly or wrongly) possible simpler explanations?

To me part of the connundrum is that you have to be aware of both politics and 'spiritual topology of the mortal realm, and the 'celestial' battles and topology, so that the actual 'truths' are obscured. And also I feel that much of what is written is phrased in deliberately self-contradictory terminology so as to hide the 'truths' that will be revealed in later games!

If there is any one line of truth it will be found by looking at the spaces between the lines, rather than between the words and keeping a close weather eye out on the politics of it all, always adjusting for the changing conventions in RL politics... After all, when a game takes years to create, the arguments in rl political debate shift, and a 'live rpg' like TES shifts it's structure to reflect this.

Thus for whatever reason, it appears that The High Elves were conquered by man, but there was a faction that refused to admit defeat and led by Veloth journeyed accross the continent to Morrowind, then occupied mainly by Nords, and conquered that part of the world. They did this so that they could continue to hold to their ancient beliefs becoming, at the point where the Tribunal raises its standard and accomodates the Empire in treaty, seemingly cursed by Azura - but maybe not for the way they raised themselves to semi/godhood as many believe, but rather that as they set themselves up to insulate their people in some part from both the Daedra that their Ancestors had followed and the Empire, the manner of it turned their followers (who were not insulated by ritual as the Tribunal were when they assumed power) into a form closer to Daedra, because the Triumvirate blended Daedric and Aedric Ritual to remain free...

How this might affect (or not) your and Proweler's arguments if true re the more ancient past and events elsewhere you must decide...

Posted by: proweler May 24 2006, 03:35 PM

QUOTE(Polycarp @ May 24 2006, 10:39 AM)



Mmh. We certainly have a better vantage point then most so the awnser doesn't have to lay outside known knowledge.

The common relation between Vivec, Rimmen, Talos, the West, Vivec, Gow and the Dwemer is the Numidium. A product of the search to complete the Endevour. Kier-Jo links some of them to the selective and the loveletter links all of them to the Endevour.

(Til is down atm though)

Vivec, Tiber and Gow apperently completed this and none of them caused a Dragon Break that lasted as long as the Break caused by the selective, neither had intentions to replace the Aedra either.

During the Dragon Break Mundus becomes free of spokes, free of the sacreficial bodies we worship. In effect, they removed the Aedra from Mundus by becomming gods themselves.
This was a state much like the Dawn Era, but the Dawn Era ended for a reason. Perhaps the Middle Dawn ended for the same.

Right now everything is as it was before the break.

QUOTE(1999 @ May 24 2006, 12:14 PM)



The Monomyth mostly deals with the Dawn Era in which Auriel ripped out Lorkhans heart and it ends with the convention at which Auriel ascended. The Chimer disidents left Summurset Isle in the Merethic Era under the lead of Veloth.

That's pretty much accepted History. I'm not sure what you are talking about.


Posted by: 1999 May 24 2006, 10:43 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 24 2006, 09:35 AM)

Mmh. We certainly have a better vantage point then most so the awnser doesn't have to lay outside known knowledge.

The common relation between Vivec, Rimmen, Talos, the West, Vivec, Gow and the Dwemer is the Numidium. A product of the search to complete the Endevour. Kier-Jo links some of them to the selective and the loveletter links all of them to the Endevour.

(Til is down atm though)

Vivec, Tiber and Gow apperently completed this and none of them caused a Dragon Break that lasted as long as the Break caused by the selective, neither had intentions to replace the Aedra either.

During the Dragon Break Mundus becomes free of spokes, free of the sacreficial bodies we worship. In effect, they removed the Aedra from Mundus by becomming gods themselves.
This was a state much like the Dawn Era, but the Dawn Era ended for a reason. Perhaps the Middle Dawn ended for the same.

Right now everything is as it was before the break.
The Monomyth mostly deals with the Dawn Era in which Auriel ripped out Lorkhans heart and it ends with the convention at which Auriel ascended. The Chimer disidents left Summurset Isle in the Merethic Era under the lead of Veloth.

That's pretty much accepted History. I'm not sure what you are talking about.


Perhaps what I am reaching for is the idea that it may only be possible to establish where the truth lies at this point, and to fill in the surrounding facts from whatever seems to be agreed and certain. Maybe answers to the questions you ask of each other are yet to be written? So that you disagree because there is as yet no one sure direction...

To me it would seem that the Monomyth is either true or false. it is the earliest writing that I can think of, and nothing of that epoch that I remember from playing Morrowind, Battlespire and Daggerfall years ago appears to contradict it.

It is only once you get to the times where the Empire rises that things get much trickier, and so it is likely that this has something to do with man, and the will of the Cyrodiilians to conquer all others. To accomplish this they have had to break the spirit of the peoples of their provinces and divorce them from all beliefs that would set them against the Empire... as these have been military conquests by a people little or no more advanced than the people they have conquered...

Thus to truly understand your 'Selectives' and all the rest, maybe you have to analyse the politics that surround them...? In terms of intent.

Posted by: proweler May 24 2006, 11:45 PM

QUOTE(1999 @ May 24 2006, 09:43 PM)

Thus to truly understand your 'Selectives' and all the rest, maybe you have to analyse the politics that surround them...? In terms of intent.


Ofcourse but what do the Monomyth and the Chimer have to do with that point?

Posted by: Orzorn May 25 2006, 12:31 AM

QUOTE(B @ May 8 2006, 05:31 PM)

Thank you, Ted. Your posting in here means a lot to me. I appreciate your words of wisdom, and I completely agree with your logic. I understand your example of the two versions of The War Of Betony. There have always been contractions in ES lore. Besides the one you’ve mentioned, there are many others, e.g. The Battle of Red Mountain, Who Really is the Underking, et cetera. All those views have been presented in a game.

As the others have said, my first problem is that there wasn’t an alternate view presented in the game. So much effort went into this game; it wouldn’t have taken much to smooth things over a bit--And maybe this discussion is premature. Maybe some new information will come to light in an expansion. I won't hold my breath, though.

I’ll even go one step further: I have no problem with Mannimarco's ineptitude, Akatosh being swapped for Lorkhan, or even Mankar’s view of Mundus being the Oblivion realm of Lorkhan (I kind of like that) because I can wrap my pretty little head around all of that. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that the http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/trials_st_alessia.shtml says:
    And Akatosh drew from his breast a burning handful of his Heart's blood, and he gave it into Alessia's hand, saying, 'This shall also be a token to you of our joined blood and pledged faith. So long as you and your descendants shall wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall this dragonfire burn -- an eternal flame -- as a sign to all men and gods of our faithfulness. So long as the dragonfires shall burn, to you, and to all generations, I swear that my Heart's blood shall hold fast the Gates of Oblivion.

    So long as the Blood of the Dragon runs strong in her rulers, the glory of the Empire shall extend in unbroken years. But should the dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness, and the Demon Lords of Misrule shall govern the land.'
I don’t care how much Imperial propaganda is dished out, there is no way that the inhabitants of Nirn are that stupid or naive to believe that Alessia’s Bloodline has never been broken. All I would need is a reason for why Uriel’s death caused the Gates to open now and not the numerous times before when "no heir of our joined blood [wore] the Amulet of Kings." And I would like that reason to be present in the game.

There do seem to be many lore look-overs (expecially The King of Words,he was a weak altmer,WTF).
I believe the reason that the gates didnt open when there was no emperor is that alot of the towers have been recently destroyed.

Battlespire,Numidium,The Red Tower (red mountain),and the amulet as another tower.So when the emperor died the barrier was weak and Merhunes broke through.

But there does seem to be such an incredible amount of propaganda about Akatosh making the amulet that it seems to act like its true.But there is another book that says Lorkhan made the amulet.

If youve ever done the last Thieves Guild mission you will see a VERY large chair and club.Perhaps Lorkhans chair and club?They were stored in the palace.With a giant crystal ball.Strange....

Posted by: 1999 May 25 2006, 11:19 AM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 24 2006, 05:45 PM)

Ofcourse but what do the Monomyth and the Chimer have to do with that point?


Same goes for all the Elderscrolls Lore because all is written by those who are politically connected, even the most abstruse metaphysics is published = money =resources = power = politics. Therefore, in the absence of sufficient backgraound knowledge, what you have are best guesses... They are fascinating, but do they actually go anywhere?

It is delightful to read your 'battle' with Polucarp to establish the whichness of what, but I do wish that you would both step back a bit and re-assess your positions more often. Even swop roles and argue the other's case - maybe that way you could even second guess the direction of the Lore for ES V?

I suppose really I would like to see all the Lore printed out on one giant sheet of paper, along with all your arguments, so that I could compare everything at a glance - but as it is (being incredibly self centered and selfish) I am going to demand that you two pin down your arguments a bit more methodically and accurately - as it is, anyone would think you were an Aedra and a Daedra at verbal war!

Orzorn:
QUOTE
If you've ever done the last Thieves Guild mission you will see a VERY large chair and club.Perhaps Lorkhans chair and club?They were stored in the palace.With a giant crystal ball.Strange....

Lorkhan or Stendahl I wonder?

Posted by: proweler May 25 2006, 03:44 PM

I think you are mistaken. We aren't arguing over an unknown part of Lore. Polycarp has been defending the conclusion made in http://til.gamingsource.net/fsg/nazzarticle4.shtml by Nazz. While I hold that it was another attempt at the Endevour, the walking way to apotheosis.

Polycarps defense (seems to) revolve around the apperent disapearing schism in the Aedra, while I hold there was no schism in the first and the Aedra are freeloading on both sides. It's verry well possible the apperent schism is caused by politics.

I mad a point by showing that simply becomming gods has all the effects as described in the http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/dragonbroke.shtml while Polycarp argue's that something actually changed in the procces.

My counter argument to that is partially based on Solins http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rhod0091/mnemoligate.html and the events http://til.gamingsource.net/history/dawn.shtml.
When the gods left Mundus the spokes were put into place and time when liniar, the stars falling were a reattachement of the spokes and time became linair again. As the spokes were originally attached when the Aedra left Mundus, that means there were no Aedra present on Mundus this time either.

What we now worship as gods the sacreficial parts of the gods, the spokes and the planets, something that has been argued before. However by removing these parts the Selective did acomplish their goals. They removed the Altmeri aspects of Akatosh allong with Akatosh himselves.

Also of note are http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml

---

http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.


This text connects the Numidium, the Endevour, the Selective, Vivec, Talos and the Dwemer, all were trying to become Gods.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/dragonbroke.shtml
While you were fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers, (...) We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it. You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but twice!


Kier-Jo connects the Selective and the Numidium.

http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/dragonbroke.shtml
Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again.” - Mehra Nabisi, Dunmer, Triune Mistress of the New Temple


By saying that the Dunmer know what the Selective did, she connects them to Vivec.

Ofcourse Vivec can also be connected to the Dwemer, Talos and the Numidium. They all were using a crux of transcendance, either Lorkhan's heart or the Mantella.


Posted by: Polycarp May 25 2006, 05:06 PM

QUOTE(proweler @ May 25 2006, 03:44 PM)

Polycarps defense (seems to) revolve around the apperent disapearing schism in the Aedra, while I hold there was no schism in the first and the Aedra are freeloading on both sides. It's verry well possible the apperent schism is caused by politics.

Ofcourse Vivec can also be connected to the Dwemer, Talos and the Numidium. They all were using a crux of transcendance, either Lorkhan's heart or the Mantella.

Truly I believe we have covered just about everything on the topic and gotten mainly no where. The stars falling like everything else in that book can be interpreted so many different ways. What I hope is that now the scholars of the forums can look at all the information and make their decision, for this is an important issue.

If Proweler is right, the Aedra have been playing both sides and it's really hard to see what their motives are or how they would react to say... Lorkhan coming back or another Mer/Man war that seems to be up in coming in the next few games with Summerset's ban.

If I am right, the Maruhkati were successful and if Lorkhan comes back he may even be supported by the Aedra (as the Selective is a faction of the Alessians, a group of his followers. Read my latest paper in the FSG for proof that Lorkhan is "The One"), which could prove interesting. Also if I am right the Empire cannot permanently fall unless if the Mer could recreate the Hurling Disk, yet again replacing the Aedra. Or heck, maybe even using it as a way to escape into the Divine Realm. Who knows.

Now it's up to you to decide. Either way though it seems the Aedric topic has just gotten one heck of a lot more interesting .

Polycarp

Posted by: 1999 May 26 2006, 11:06 AM

QUOTE
name='Polycarp' date='May 25 2006, 11:06 AM' post='6508991'
Truly I believe we have covered just about everything on the topic and gotten mainly no where.
nil desperandum.

QUOTE
The stars falling like everything else in that book can be interpreted so many different ways. What I hope is that now the scholars of the forums can look at all the information and make their decision, for this is an important issue.
With your dispute you have certainly taken my interest... so maybe you will succeed there...

QUOTE
If Proweler is right, the Aedra have been playing both sides and it's really hard to see what their motives are or how they would react to say... Lorkhan coming back or another Mer/Man war that seems to be up in coming in the next few games with Summerset's ban.
I have not yet read all the info, but I am thinking that maybe both the Aedra and Daedra have concerns that range ouside the ken of mortal politics, and that therefore you need to consider that mortals stray from the paths that they want mortals to take...somtimes even attempting to usurp the rightful (by primogenitur) place of the immortals who are by Their natures tied to the underlying structure of the cosmos and represent a very large proportion thereof.

QUOTE
If I am right, the Maruhkati were successful and if Lorkhan comes back he may even be supported by the Aedra (as the Selective is a faction of the Alessians, a group of his followers. Read my latest paper in the FSG for proof that Lorkhan is "The One"), which could prove interesting. Also if I am right the Empire cannot permanently fall unless if the Mer could recreate the Hurling Disk, yet again replacing the Aedra. Or heck, maybe even using it as a way to escape into the Divine Realm. Who knows.
As to the Empire being unable to fall... that does seem a mite fanciful. Although there may be a lot of power invested in the heart of the Empire, I somehow doubt that it is that closely tied to the 'Wheel of Time.' Though it may be that the God of Time favours the Empire.

QUOTE
Now it's up to you to decide. Either way though it seems the Aedric topic has just gotten one heck of a lot more interesting .

Polycarp
hmmmm.... mission accomplished, eh?


proweler It seems that I will have to do a lot more reading before I am up to speed on this topic, which seems to revolve around your precis:
QUOTE
I made a point by showing that simply becomming gods has all the effects as described in the Where were you went the Dragon Broke while Polycarp argue's that something actually changed in the proccess.


However, in my limited and admittedly casual reading I had come to believe that the planets were the Aedra, and that affected by certain events (not entirely according to their plan) they had transformed or had been transformed into a different state and literally 'fallen to earth.' As in their nature and status was lowered spiritually as well as physically.

Regarding your theory about the spokes:
QUOTE
the stars falling were a reattachement of the spokes and time became linair again.
you make the case very clear conceptually, and in fact I now see that idea far more clearly than I had previously, though I have not yet come to anything that suggests that the Aedra themselves were/are the spokes - in fact, the most spokelike things that I can think of are the 8 towers? Though how that would alter the mix I cannot say...

Anyhows, regards to you both... clearly I must further

Posted by: Allerleirauh May 26 2006, 11:27 AM

Polycarp, in my opinion about half of your theory is brilliant and the other half is total hooey.

It is by no means clear that the Selective failed in their stated goal of altering the nature of Akatosh. They seem to have messed Akatosh up quite nicely.

Re: the Amulet of Kings. Anyone here play Kessen? We're talking about what might be called "the mandate of heaven." Rightful inheritence according to law is one way to pass on the mandate of heaven. There are other ways. Remanada describes one instance of another way. Having a stormcloud descend and sit on your shoulder while strangers see you in the image of a dragon is yet another way.

The developers are perfectly aware that Martin is not the blood descendant of Tiber Septim, much less Alessia; history books are stacked all over the place. Remanada is a NEW BOOK, commissioned for Oblivion.

Do the common people believe that old Uriel is a descendant of Talos? Sure, probably. If you read the results of some pollsters, you will discover that the common people are mostly extremely stupid. They cut right through complexity and believe the most outlandish, simple, theories.

Posted by: DarthRic May 26 2006, 03:29 PM

I think what kept the deadra away is if you read a book about the amulet of kings then you find akatosh tells allesia as long as someone of their joined blood wears the ammulet so allesias decedendents kept the deadra away for the first two eras and tiber septin was the "Dragon Born" so he was in someway related to akatosh so he had some of akatoshes divine blood in him so he and his heairs could wear the amulet, what do u think?

Posted by: proweler May 26 2006, 03:57 PM

QUOTE(DarthRic @ May 26 2006, 02:29 PM)

I think what kept the deadra away is if you read a book about the amulet of kings then you find akatosh tells allesia as long as someone of their joined blood wears the ammulet so allesias decedendents kept the deadra away for the first two eras and tiber septin was the "Dragon Born" so he was in someway related to akatosh so he had some of akatoshes divine blood in him so he and his heairs could wear the amulet, what do u think?


The Line broke down in the first Era already.
After the fall of Allesian Order and before Reman there was a good periode of chaos, with no heirs of Allesia and no Invasion. Reman is said to be mythically conceived by King Hrol and the Spirit of Allesia, this is ofcourse a of romantic way to describe his influence on Cyrodiil.
After the death of the Reman dynasty the Tseasci Potentates ruled for Cyrodiil for a good while but still there was no invasion. After the death of the Potentates there was again a period of turmoil with no heirs on the throne.
When Tiber Septim conquered Cyrodiil he made no attempt to set himselves up as on of Allesia. In fact he was flirting with the Nords, claiming to be an Atmoran. When he (or just Ysmir?) became a god after Daggerfall he did not replace Akatosh who is the King of the Gods but took the seat of the missing god, Lorkhan or Shor, the former warlord of Man.

I reckon the "True Cyrodiil" tone of the Imperial propaganda is of a fairly resent origins.

Posted by: featherbrain May 31 2006, 03:19 AM

"became a god after Daggerfall"

?


Posted by: proweler May 31 2006, 03:30 AM

QUOTE(featherbrain @ May 31 2006, 02:19 AM)

"became a god after Daggerfall"

?


Eight Divines in Daggerfall, Nine in Morrowind.

Tiber Septim was long death by then so it's not him, he'd worshipped much earlier. Not sure how to argue the point under 15 minutes but there apears to be only one aplicable person to take up the seat of Lorkhan, Shezarr and Shor. Or atleast provide enhough leverage to validate his worship is one of the Nine rather then a minor deity.

As by the Arcturian Heresy, the Underking was Wulfheart, Ysmir, aspect of Shor, who got the ghost of his heart back - enchanted with a replica of the Dwemer enchantments on the Heart of Lorkhan.

Posted by: Wanna-be Geek May 31 2006, 07:26 AM

I havn't realy read everything in here but i've read enough to make a theorie that sounds insane enough to me when i step away and look at it from real-world perspective that i think it might be suitable.

Dangit, i just realised that this theorie has nothing to do with this thread, only on why it is that when the AoK is needed to be stolen before the hordes of oblivion can be relised. If you guys still want o hear it i'll post it but its not realy on topic.

and btw: HOLY [censored], Sheogorath is tedders???? damn, I always thought that you were just another fan

Posted by: Sheogorath May 31 2006, 09:13 PM

QUOTE(Wanna-be Geek @ May 31 2006, 01:26 AM)

and btw: HOLY [censored], Sheogorath is tedders???? damn, I always thought that you were just another fan


The lesson here is always to listen to the whisper of madness.




Posted by: Enantiamorph Jun 1 2006, 02:50 AM

First of all: proweler and Polycarp, your discussion has been very enlightening. I'm not nearly as well-read as the two of you, but I've always made a distinction between the Divines and the Aedra. I have little doubt the Selectives are masquerading as the Divines. So where does that leave the Aedra? Beats me. Replaced, usurpred, displaced, destroyed?

And secondly, getting back to the topic of Oblivion and canonical lore: the problem I have with relying solely on what I can observe in-game is that, based on the game's events, it's hard to dispute that Martin Septim is somehow related to Alessia, and therefore has the blood of Akatosh in his veins. The only things we have to contradict that assertion are in-game books, which brings up a question of priority.

The identity of the Underking is a perfect example. On the one hand, you have the ending cinematic from Daggerfall, which pretty clearly states that the Underking is Zurin Arctus. On the other, we have the book, Arcturian Heresy, which has us believe that the Underking is actually King Wulfharth. The author of Arcturian Heresy is a character within the constraints of the game world, with his/her own biases and motivations, but you'd be hard-pressed to assert that the narrator of Daggerfall's ending cinematic is merely reciting imperial propoganda or some-such. Both qualify as pieces of TES lore, but one pretty clearly (to me, anyway) takes precedence over the other, and so I have always believed that Zurin Arctus was/is the Underking (sorry, Ysmir!).

So, having said that, what kind of priority do the various pieces of Oblivion lore take? The loading-screen snippets come immediately to mind. One of them very plainly states that the Amulet of Kings was given to Alessia by Akatosh. Can we reasonably assume that notes from the developers are subject to Imperial Propoganda? Or perhaps Mortal Mental Stress?

Posted by: featherbrain Jun 3 2006, 10:53 PM

QUOTE(Enantiamorph @ Jun 1 2006, 12:50 AM)
Can we reasonably assume that notes from the developers are subject to Imperial Propoganda?

I would say: absolutely!

QUOTE
Or perhaps Mortal Mental Stress?

No question.

Posted by: Marlo LaCroa Jun 4 2006, 12:22 AM

QUOTE(Enantiamorph @ May 31 2006, 08:50 PM)

So, having said that, what kind of priority do the various pieces of Oblivion lore take? The loading-screen snippets come immediately to mind. One of them very plainly states that the Amulet of Kings was given to Alessia by Akatosh.


That loading screen quote is garbage from http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/trials_st_alessia.shtml
QUOTE(Imperial Propaganda)
So long as the Blood of the Dragon runs strong in her rulers, the glory of the Empire shall extend in unbroken years. But should the dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness, and the Demon Lords of Misrule shall govern the land.'


Look familiar? The whole game wants us to think Imperial. I think I need to go burn the Monomyth again.

Posted by: Gez Jun 4 2006, 12:48 AM

QUOTE(Enantiamorph @ Jun 1 2006, 01:50 AM)

First of all: proweler and Polycarp, your discussion has been very enlightening. I'm not nearly as well-read as the two of you, but I've always made a distinction between the Divines and the Aedra. I have little doubt the Selectives are masquerading as the Divines. So where does that leave the Aedra? Beats me. Replaced, usurpred, displaced, destroyed?


I'm on Proweler's side here. Polycarp's argument is based on these facts:

1. According to the Monomyth and other sources, Auriel was a genocidal maniac that spent his time gutting humans with a chainsaw, foaming at the mouth and laughing hysterically.
2. Auriel is the same as Akatosh.
3. Akatosh nowadays doesn't spend his time gutting humans with a chainsaw, foaming at the mouth and laughing hysterically.

He concludes thus that the Marukhati managed to stop Akatosh from being the same as Auriel, by becoming the new Akatosh (and presumably, the new seven other Aedra).

I don't think it holds because, even though Auriel is Akatosh, Auriel has always been on the side of Mer while Akatosh has always been on the side of Men. Yet they are one and the same -- how to explain this contradiction?

My own hypothesis is simply that Auriel/Akatosh never walked Nirn. For real. They simply send avatars. The Mer's Auri-El was an avatar they summoned with magicka, nothing more. Just like two people could learn the same offensive spell at a Divine's chapel, and then duel together using this spell, and that would be construed as having the Divine support both at the same time...

QUOTE
"Some Aedra were disappointed and bitter in their loss, and angry with Shezarr, and with all creation, for they felt Shezarr had lied and tricked them. These Aedra, the Gods of the Aldmer, led by Auri-El, were disgusted by their enfeebled selves, and by what they had created.

"Other Aedra looked upon creation, and were well pleased. These Aedra, the Gods of Men and Beast Folk, led by Akatosh, praised and cherished their wards, the Mortal Races.


This dichotomy was there from the start. So either Auriel and Akatosh have, in fact, never been the same, or it has, in fact, always been on both sides.

Posted by: Zerithan_The_Spellsword Jun 4 2006, 02:14 AM

Gez, on Proweler's side is the right side to be on. Good choice. Did anyone bring up the Dragonfires? I'm too lazy to read it all.....

Posted by: Enantiamorph Jun 5 2006, 02:39 PM

QUOTE(Marlo LaCroa @ Jun 3 2006, 03:22 PM)

That loading screen quote is garbage from http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/trials_st_alessia.shtml

Look familiar? The whole game wants us to think Imperial. I think I need to go burn the Monomyth again.

Ah, you're right. I went back to the Imperial City and reloaded until I got that snippet, and it's enclosed with elipses.

Still, Nu-Mantia Intercept or not, it's hard to dispute this Imperial "garbage" when Martin Septim--who isn't even remotely related to Alessia, or even Tiber Septim--turns into a giant dragon and whups Mehrunes Dagon. Seriously, how do you reconcile that?

Posted by: Gez Jun 5 2006, 03:49 PM

There are other Dragons than Akatosh. Lorkhan is one. Peryite is one. Tiber Septim was likened to one.

And there are actual dragons, though they're practically extinct. There was one in Redguard, but stupid Cyrus had to kill him...

Posted by: dman2004 Jul 16 2006, 05:26 AM

Wait a sec, i thought someone said Tod Howard actually comes to the forms and post is that true?

Posted by: Phintias Jul 16 2006, 05:30 AM

QUOTE(dman2004 @ Jul 15 2006, 10:26 PM)

Wait a sec, i thought someone said Tod Howard actually comes to the forms and post is that true?


I have no idea. And don't perform acts of necromancy! I'm not sure who did it, but Gez's post looks too old to be it...

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