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southpark26
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Aedra, Daedra, and Gods
      #2534555 - 05/01/04 05:38 AM

I have a few questions concerning all of these:

1. What is the difference between Aedra and Daedra besides the Earth Bones thing, and if the Daedra are in Oblivion, where are the Aedra?

2. If the Daedra were created from Padomy, than why do ppl and books in morrowind refer to them as our ancestors? And why does the book "Aedra and Daedra" say that the Aedra are ancestors if they were created from Anu? Also, that same book says Daedra are not ancestors and Aedra are, but everything else says the opposite, whats with that?

Does anyone want to add a question, or answer any of these?

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2534605 - 05/01/04 05:57 AM

The way I see it, both the Aedra and the Daedra are made from both Anu and Padomay. Aedra have more of the essence of Anu and the Daedra have more of the essence of Padomay. Anu is the personification of stasis and order, while Padomay is the personification of change and chaos.

Most of the Aedra were tricked by Lorkhan into cretaing Mundus, the mortal plane, from themselves. The weakest ones were destroyed, while others seem to have survived to become the Aldmeri (their ancestors that is). That makes them the ancestors of the Merish races. The strongest of the Aedra survived and became a part of the Mundus. They are seen as planets to mortal eyes and worhipped by most races (such as the Cyrodiil Divines). They also form the natural laws and limitations of the Mundus, such as time. They also can die, but I'm not sure what it would take to truly kill one of the divines or what that would do to the Mundus.

The Daedra were not tricked into the creation of the mortal plane and remain as rulers of Oblivion. They can travel to the Mundus, where their avatar can be slain. However they are then sent back to Oblivion. That is, they cannot die. At least not by conventional means.

I hope that answers at least some of those questions.

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Edited by mafafu (05/01/04 06:10 AM)

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southpark26
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2534721 - 05/01/04 06:25 AM

wow thx! of course that leaves the question of why the chimer/dunmer chose to follow the daedra and call them ancestors when the aedra are truly their ancestors.

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2534866 - 05/01/04 07:07 AM

Well, the Chimer split off from the Altmer, and started worshipping the Daedra. They are Daedra AND ancestor worshippers. Somehow, they got it in their heads that mortals could become Daedra and that the Daedra were really just powerful spirits of mortals from the past. I really don't know how or why they started believing that, but it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the lore, so I believe they are mistaken. The Dunmer also believed that the Tribunal were real gods and were such because they earned it.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2534987 - 05/01/04 07:52 AM

The ascension of the ancestors is possible. It did not say "become Daedra", it said "become as the Daedra". In other words, they transcend the mortal limitations of Mundus and become immortal spirits. For example, Tiber Septim at the beginning of the Third Era became something of a god, though most likely not as powerful, and the King of Worms used the Mantella to become a god. It's called the Psijic Endeavor.

To further the difference between the Daedra and Aedra: Daedra translates as "Not Our Ancestors" and Aedra translates as "Our Ancestors".

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southpark26
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2535052 - 05/01/04 08:16 AM

and, why did the dunmer who regard ancestors so high, change to worshipping the daedra?

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2535058 - 05/01/04 08:18 AM

Quote:

The ascension of the ancestors is possible.




Well, of course it is, but that's not really what I was referring to. The Dunmer DO refer to the Daedra as ancestors and I made a jump in logic (which may be incorrect) that they believe that the Daedra were once mortal. I then dispelled the idea that the Daedra were once mortal. Maybe I made that idea up in the first place, but I was just pointing out that mortals don't become Daedra.

I don't think we're disagreeing, but the Dunmer just don't share the same views with the Altmer on the Daedra not being ancestors.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2535064 - 05/01/04 08:20 AM

I've never been entirely sure. I think that the Daedra helped the early Chimer when they were being persecuted and led Veloth. As such, the Chimer recognized that they needed to be respected, and so erected shrines to them. This may have been more to appease the worst of the Daedra, since their shrines are the most numerous, and only two ancient shrines exist for the three good Daedra. In any case, the Daedra helped the Chimer during the early years.

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2535070 - 05/01/04 08:23 AM

Quote:

and, why did the dunmer who regard ancestors so high, change to worshipping the daedra?




They didn't really. They worship[ped] both. I'm just not sure that the Dunmer see the Aedra as their ancestors anymore. Their form of ancestor worship would be in the form of praying to St. Veloth or some such thing. And they include Daedra as ancestors.

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southpark26
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2535082 - 05/01/04 08:27 AM

I was thinking, maybe the Daedra are elve's immortal ancestors while the Aedra are their mortal ancestors, and the Dunmer who hate Lorkhan and the fact that they are forced to be mortal choose to worship the Daedra and live by thier ways (pre-tribunal dunmer) in hope that they would become closer to them and ascend from there mortality after death (that may be a good reason for why they hate necromancy).

This is just a thought, feel free to correct me if i need to be corrected (infact i want constructive critism).

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2535095 - 05/01/04 08:33 AM

It's the Altmer who really hate Lorkhan for severing them from the spirit world. I believe the Dunmer hold Lorkhan in a much higher regard. Lorkhan may have severed mortals from Aetherius, but he also led the way to transcend.

The Daedra had no part in the construction of the Mundus, and as such, are not the ancestors of any mortal.

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southpark26
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2535104 - 05/01/04 08:36 AM

Oh, is Aetherius the spirit world? And what is the way to Transcend?

Didn't the mortal races exist as immortals before the mortal world was created?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2535111 - 05/01/04 08:38 AM

Actually, the Chimer were the mer who chose to believe that Lorkhan had created Mundus for the purpose of allowing the et'Ada who participated to transcend the chaos of what had been created. It was the Altmer who spurned Lorkhan as a vile trickster(their name for him means "Doom Drum").

And no, the Daedra are not ancestors. Life and death are parts of Mundus, just as is birth. The Daedra do not grow nor shrink in terms of population because they can neither die nor be born. As such, it is impossible for them to have children, and thus could not be related to mortals of Mundus. Only by participating in the creation of Mundus could the Daedra have become mortal and thus become Aedra, the ancestors.

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2535128 - 05/01/04 08:44 AM

Quote:

Oh, is Aetherius the spirit world? And what is the way to Transcend?






I'm not sure that's really the best terminology, but the mortal world is surrounded by Oblivion and Aetherius is beyond that. It's seems to be used as 'the rest of the Aurbis' (Aurbis = known universe). which is where the immortal spirits resided (and still do by containment) before the creation of the Mundus.

There is no one way to transcend, but the Psijic Endeavour is one path. Do a search at The Imperial Library for more information about that (or wait for more responses).

Quote:

Didn't the mortal races exist as immortals before the mortal world was created?




Apparently that's the way the Altmer see it, but I'm not convinced. The ancestors of the Altmer were severed, but the Altmer would have never been born without the Mundus.

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Edited by mafafu (05/01/04 08:47 AM)

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2535130 - 05/01/04 08:47 AM

The Altmer are too arrogant to see past the end of their own nose, much less to what they used to be. When the Aedra first existed they were doomed to an eternity trapped in the same form, forever trapped in an inability to become more than they were and better than the chaos around them. Mundus allows the mortals to transcend that chaos and become more than it.

NOTE: My own opinions, not fact.

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southpark26
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2535146 - 05/01/04 08:59 AM

i still dont know what the psjic endeaver is because i cant understand the stuff at the imperial library! its harder than trying to converse with Baladas Demnevani!

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2535184 - 05/01/04 09:15 AM

You can't just get it all in one day. I still wrestle with what little we do know about the deep lore of ES. For someone who's been registered here for 5 days though, you are doing extremely well. Just keep asking questions/reading posts here and try to muddle your way through the stuff at TIL and eventually it will start to make more sense.

As for the Psijic Endeavour, the creation of the Mundus was the first attempt. It's not really an easy subject to explain, and what we do know about it is still a bit hazy. But simply, it is a transcendance of the mortal world into something more, deeply rooted in that aspect that is Padomay, change.

And here is what Vivec said about it:

Quote:

What is the Psijic Endeavor?

The basis for the teachings of the Prophet Veloth, founder of present day Morrowind and father of Dunmeri culture. Veloth describes the Psijic Endeavor as a process of glorious apotheosis, where time itself is bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'. Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.

It should be noted that, while Veloth is given credit for establishing the anti-laws that govern the Endeavor, this process has its antecedents in the teachings of the Black Hands Mephala, Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, and, of course, Lorkhan, through that lord's association with PSJJJJ.




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TSBasilisk
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2535247 - 05/01/04 09:35 AM

In essence, the Endeavor is the process of total self-realization. One who follows it discovers their true nature within and evolve into a higher spirit which escapes the endless loop of death and rebirth upon Mundus. The essence of a being is Change, and that Change is circulated throughout the world as the center of all life by the Heart of Lorkhan. By solidifying your Change into Stasis, a person transcends the limits of Mundus and becomes, in essence, a god.

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southpark26
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2536468 - 05/01/04 05:52 PM

is that why dagoth ur believed it good to distribute the heart of lorkhans power to his followers?

Also weren't dagoth's intentions a bit similar to the psijic endeaver?

and one more thing, if the heart of lorkhan creates change why when you destroy it, does it not destroy the world?

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2536712 - 05/01/04 07:56 PM

I don't think Ur's intentions were the same. His intentions had to do with a gain of power and domination over the Mundus itself by drawing power straight from the Heart. I don't think those that attempt the Endeavour are interested in such mortal concerns as world domination.

And at the end of TESIII, you do not destroy the Heart of Lorkhan, but merely the enchantments placed upon it. That is what destroys both Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal's power. The Heart I believe, retreats to protect itself, much like highly enchanted items that are known to simply disappear from time to time.

But yes, if the Heart were to be truly destroyed, so too would the Mundus.

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southpark26
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2537343 - 05/01/04 10:46 PM

Isn't it a bit funny that people even care about the mortal world if they can just perform the Psjic Endeaver and move on to what is supposedly a much better place. Do you agree?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: southpark26]
      #2537870 - 05/02/04 01:15 AM

The Psijic Endeavor is virtually impossible to achieve. Most people have no chance to even learn of the Endeavor's existence, much less have the luxury of exploring the possibilities. The Endeavor is a lifelong quest, and most people are trapped in the details of ordinary life. If the world becomes a horrible place to live, none will ever gain the chance to transcend because they will never have the chance to fully realize their true essence.

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Ash_Sage825
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #2542048 - 05/03/04 12:24 AM

So technically no one can achieve the Psijic Endeavor? Then why do they keep going?

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Helton
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Ash_Sage825]
      #2542186 - 05/03/04 01:14 AM

Tiber Septim, King of Worms, and I think someone else (Underking?)
have completed the Psijic Endeavor I believe.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Helton]
      #2542791 - 05/03/04 03:59 AM

I said virtually impossible, not impossible. It can be achieved, but it takes more dedication than most can give it. Mages are the most likely to achieve it because they can extend their lifespans and accumulate enough power to maintain the state they need. But even a peasant could achieve it under the right circumstances without ever going beyond his home town.

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Nigedo
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Helton]
      #2543125 - 05/03/04 05:41 AM

Quote:

Tiber Septim, King of Worms, and I think someone else (Underking?) have completed the Psijic Endeavor I believe.



There is no evidence that anyone has successfully pulled of the Psijic Endeavor, at any time.

Even if we accept that the individuals you mentioned have become immortals (the evidence for which is spurious, in the case of Tiber Septim IMO), the Endeavor is about far more than becoming a god, as all previous gods are defined.

The Endeavor is concerned with achieving a state (as TS said, above) that is beyond the boundaries of mortal existence. But it is, moreover, a state beyond the boundaries of the existence of all immortals too, since it defies the basic universal laws of Stasis and Change that constrain them, being neither one nor the other, yet both.



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Ash_Sage825
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Nigedo]
      #2545431 - 05/03/04 11:31 PM

Whoa trippy, so when and if (and that's a big if) you achieve the Psijic Endeavor you transcend not just mortals but immortals? So it's like achieving a sort of apathic state. Because like Nigedo said in the post above me that you are neither stasis or change and yet you are both.

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zingbat
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Nigedo]
      #2545587 - 05/04/04 12:18 AM

Uh ? Everything that is spiritual in nature is both made of stasis and change. Why would you need the psijjic endeavor for that ? Maybe the psijjic endeavor is more about breaking the bonds of mortality without dieing. Something about that lhorkan story of creating the mortal plane and binding spirits of those mythic eras to accept mortality.


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Nigedo
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: zingbat]
      #2545929 - 05/04/04 02:05 AM

Quote:

Maybe the psijjic endeavor is more about breaking the bonds of mortality without dieing.



Yes, that and much more.

From Varieties of Faith in the Empire;

"In Morrowind, for example, [Lorkhan] is a being related to the Psijiic Endeavor, a process by which mortals are charged with transcending the gods that created them."

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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Nigedo]
      #2546043 - 05/04/04 02:40 AM

Jeez man that's a mind boggling philosiphy. Ah I think I get it, Lorkahn forged the chains of the Aedra binding them to their creation making them mortal, so the Aedra tricked by Lorkahn were forced to desubstantiate and become mortal, so the mortals that came from the Earth Bones where able transubstantiate the gods that created them. So the Psijic Endeavor now is trying and trandscend the current Aedra and Daedra?
If I'm wrong please tell me this is one of those topics in the forum I've always had trouble understanding.

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Helton
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Nigedo]
      #2549096 - 05/05/04 12:23 AM

Quote:



The Endeavor is concerned with achieving a state (as TS said, above) that is beyond the boundaries of mortal existence. But it is, moreover, a state beyond the boundaries of the existence of all immortals too, since it defies the basic universal laws of Stasis and Change that constrain them, being neither one nor the other, yet both.






I'm by no means an expert, but something has always bugged me about the Psijic Endeavor, as what it appears to be trying to achieve is exactly what Lorkhan did. He created a plane (Mundus) that consisted of both Stasis and Change. Maybe someone stumbled upon Lorkhan's old notes and thought it applied to them, when it didn't.

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Nigedo
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Helton]
      #2549384 - 05/05/04 02:04 AM

Quote:

something has always bugged me about the Psijic Endeavor, as what it appears to be trying to achieve is exactly what Lorkhan did. He created a plane (Mundus) that consisted of both Stasis and Change.



Vehk teaches that the Mundus was the product of Lorkhan's (intentional?) failure to achieve CHIM, the state that is the objective of the Psijic Endeavor.

As I see it, the Mundus is a Compromise between the poles of Stasis and Change and it is referred to as such in the Lessons of Vivec.

Creating the Mundus, and being split apart to seal its creation, served to satisfy Lorkhan's desire to be aligned to both Stasis and Change, but it still fails to be an expression of CHIM, since CHIM is a higher state that is neither Stasis nor Change but allows the fullness of both to be continuously experienced.

Edit: We seem to have wandered from the original purpose of this thread. I hope Southpark doesn't mind?

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Edited by Nigedo (05/05/04 02:07 AM)

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mafafu
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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: Nigedo]
      #2549527 - 05/05/04 02:58 AM

Quote:

We seem to have wandered from the original purpose of this thread. I hope Southpark doesn't mind?




Why would he? He asked about the Psijic Endeavour didn't he?

And HERE is a good link to what Nigedo's talking about.

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Re: Aedra, Daedra, and Gods [Re: mafafu]
      #2549588 - 05/05/04 03:15 AM

Well that solves my ignorance, confusing but somehow I get it. Thanks for the link Mafafu I won't bug you guys that's all I needed to know.

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