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WNightBlade
(Layman)
09/17/02 01:06 PM
Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?)  

The mysterious clockwork city of Sotha Sil... hidden from everyone for years.....

WE'RE GOING TO SEE A DWARF CITY IN TRIBUNAL! YES!!!!

At least, that's my theory. At least, hopefully we'll find out what REALLY happened to the dwarves.

What do you think?

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tegger
(Acolyte)
09/17/02 01:08 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

Could be, could be... After all, the term "Fabricant" seems like a Dwemer construct, to me.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/17/02 05:34 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Well, I think that the rumours were that that Mournhold/Almalexia was built on top of a Dwemer City, so that certainly makes sense.

I don't think Sotha Sil is a Dwemer-originated city though. Sotha Sil also makes clockwork contraptions and stuff so it's probably more his doing than the dwarves.

Raptormeat

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Srikandi
(Curate)
09/17/02 07:17 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Maybe there's a connection between Sotha Sil and the Dwemer that we don't know about.

By the way, I nominate the initiator of this thread for the "cleverest subject line" award.

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/17/02 08:24 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

Of course, I may be adding 2 and 2 together and getting 6 with this theory, but...

1. Sotha Sil is a Clockwork city.
2. The location of Sotha Sil in not known.
3. The Dwemer are mostly known for making clockwork and steam items.
4. Mournhold is built on a Dwemer city.

If you can't tell where I'm going with this... I recon that Sotha Sil is the City that Mournhold is built on!

Comments? (Other than you're so hansom and smart )

-Striker

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/17/02 08:39 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

For people who like THAT theory, I point you to the last book of the "Last Year of the First Era" series.

Personally, I hate the theory, hahaha But there's certainly plenty of evidence for it.

Raptormeat

HINT: Look at the chapter titles.

EDIT: Srikandi, I guess you're correct. I can think of at least 2 ways that Sotha Sil and the Dwemer are connected. One is a spoiler, but the other: Didn't Sotha Sil suppossedly create metal Deughs as mockeries of the Dwemer Animunculi? According to the 36 sermons anyway?

Heh heh. I suppose it would help the Devs to only have to build one gigundo city (and perhaps the surrounding area) as opposed two semi-gigundo cities (and possibly the areas around both!)

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B
(Curate)
09/17/02 08:54 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Hmm, the last entry says Ebonheart, Morrowind.

~B

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/17/02 08:55 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Yeah, I have read those books. Are you refering to this part:

In reply to:

19 Sun's Dusk, 2920
Mournhold, Morrowind
Almalexia surveyed the rebuilding of the town. The spirit of the citizens was truly inspirational, she thought, as she walked among the skeletons of new buildings standing in the blackened, shattered remains of the old. Even the plantlife showed a remarkable resilience. There was life yet in the blasted remains of the comberry and roobrush shrubs that once lined the main avenue. She could feel the pulse. Come springtide, green would bolt through the black.

The Duke's heir, a lad of considerable intelligence and sturdy Dunmer courage, was coming down from the north to take his father's place. The land would do more than survive: it would strengthen and expand. She felt the future much more strongly than she saw the present.

Of all the things she was most certain of, she knew that Mournhold was forever home to at least one goddess.




This makes no mention of there being any catacombs beneath the city, nor does it say that they were destroyed.

Or this part:

In reply to:

31 Sun's Dusk, 2920
Ebonheart, Morrowind
In the smoky catacombs beneath the city where Sotha Sil forged the future with his arcane clockwork apparatus, something unforeseen happened. An oily bubble seeped from a long trusted gear and popped. Immediately, the wizard's attention was drawn to it and to the chain that tiny action triggered. A pipe shifted half an inch to the left. A tread skipped. A coil rewound itself and began spinning in a counter direction. A piston that had been thrusting left-right, left-right, for millennia suddenly began shifting right-left. Nothing broke, but everything changed.

"It cannot be fixed now," said the sorcerer quietly.

He looked up through a crick in the ceiling into the night sky. It was midnight. The second era, the age of chaos, had begun.




Which takes place in Ebonheart, so it's "In the smoky catacombs beneath the city [Ebonheart] where Sotha Sil forged the future with his arcane clockwork apparatus, something unforeseen happened.". This refers to Ebonheart and a clockwork apparatus, not Sotha Sil the clockwork city.

Am I looking at the wrong places?

-Striker

P.S. I still stand by my theory :P

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/17/02 08:58 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

EDIT: I meant that I assumed that it was speaking of Sotha Sil the city. As in- it was beneath Ebonheart, or whatever. I don't know He's re-shaping with a clock-work contraption!!! He's in a secret place! Makes sense to me, anyway.

At the time of post I thought that it said that he was doing it underneath Mournhold. Doh. But still- why would Sotha Sil have arcane future shaping devices in 2 separate places????????

Maybe he rented a U-haul and shipped it down south at some point. Speaking of down south-

NOT EDIT:
The only thing I've ever read regarding the location of Sotha Sil. And the reason why I always tell people it's in the South:

I've heard rumors of a city somewhere in southern Morrowind, that the people call Sotha Sil, like the God of the Tribunal. What can you tell me of this city?

Marcus Richton, Colovian Naval Officer, Velothis Haven:
Sotha Sil is a sacred site, but not a site of pilgrimage, I hear. It is a holy place equal to Vivec and Almalexia, but unlike those locations, Sotha Sil is not a population center, and it is in a remote part of the exceedingly unpleasant southwest highland wilderness. Imperial Citizens love to visit beautiful Vivec with its steam-parks, canals, and monuments, and even though Almalexians are not at all cordial or encouraging to visitors, the city is rather grand, in a vast, sprawling, sordid way. But I've never heard anyone, Dunmer or outsider, express an interest in visiting Sotha Sil.

From the Skeleton Man Interview

Raptormeat

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Edited by Raptormeat (09/17/02 09:06 PM)

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B
(Curate)
09/17/02 09:05 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

EDIT: All this editing is making me tired. I would say that Ebonheart makes sense if you look at the title. That doesn't mean that I'm right!

POINTLESS INFORMATION: I posted this in another thread a long time ago. I kind of have some of the answers to my own questions. It doesn't help on the location of the city, though.

"What intrigues me is that the Anumidum is known as the Brass God and believed to affect time. I find it interesting that Sotha Sil, the Clockwork King [Time? - B] is "reshaping the world from his hidden, clockwork city (of brass)". What is Sotha Sil planning? Are the two related?"

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Edited by B (09/17/02 09:13 PM)

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/17/02 09:11 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Heh heh Look at us Lore-buffs. We take a simple, hopefull thread, and in the space of half an hour we hijack it and turn it into a bambling mess

I feel like we're gettin somewhere though! We must press on!

Raptormeat

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CaptainCanMan
(Novice)
09/17/02 09:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

lol.

yes, it seems that Sotha Sil is quite dwarf like in his hobbies and interests, and he did make those clockwork dreughs to drag the dwarven war machines into the water. He could be a traitor dwarf, or heretic dark elf. Maybe he and the dwarves pursued separate paths; I would be interested in their inventions and how they differ. Maybe he studied their artifacts and techniques and acquired the skills of the dwarves.

2920 is a long time after the disappearance of the dwarves, and the modern inhabitants of Mournhold deny the existence of the dwarven city. Almalexia probably would've known, but she wasn't the author.

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B
(Curate)
09/17/02 09:20 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Okay, there is a lot to connect Sotha Sil with the Dwemer.

He obviously has information about Dwemer artifacts and inventions. He figured out how to use a couple of them And I think Raptormeat is correct about his building a Dreugh mockery of the Dwemer.

The Dwemer had a fascination with time and its manipulation and so does Sotha Sil.

Man, I need to download another copy of MIRC!

~B

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/17/02 09:21 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Hehe, yeah, you put the words 'Dwemer' and 'Clockwork City' in a post and you're screwed

Ok, so there is evidence that points to Sotha Sil being under Almalexia, but there is also evidence that it's to the south in the area. Two conflicting views in an aspect of Elder Scrolls lore? Never

Now, B brought up that "What intrigues me is that the Anumidum is known as the Brass God and believed to affect time. I find it interesting that Sotha Sil, the Clockwork King [Time? - B] is "reshaping the world from his hidden, clockwork city (of brass)". What is Sotha Sil planning? Are the two related?"

Now, if you read the Last Year of the First Era books, you will see that he had/has created a clockwork machine that is connected to the Tamriel Timeline. This is similar to the Moth Priests that look after the Elder Scrolls. Perhaps Sotha Sil is trying to build his own Anumidium (What is it with people and their obsession with giant robots? ), or perhaps he is building one as a defence to the one Dagoth Ur was making.

If this is the case, where would he get a power source as powerful as the heart of Lorkhan to power it? Of course, the Numidium in Daggerfall used the heart of Zurin Arctus (Didn't it?).

Well, that's enough speculation for now. This fire any other ideas people have?

-Striker

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CatDragon
(Initiate)
09/17/02 09:46 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Yeah...what ARE the Elder Scrolls, anyway?

---------------
"You must have misunderstood your question"- Dogbert

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tegger
(Adept)
09/17/02 10:46 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

I've harbored this theory for a while, and reading the discussion here, I'm even more intrigued with this idea:

Sotha Sil and the disappearance of the Dwemer could be related simply because Sotha Sil somehow absorbed Dwemer knowledge at the time of their mysterious vanishing act. As Baladas Demnevanni says, perhaps they retreated behind theories (or something along that line; I'm paraphrasing) like math and color. It would explain why Sotha Sil was the only one of the Three to figure out Kagrenac's tools.

Also, perhaps the color of the Chimer's skin changed as a result of some vestigial "essence" -- a terrible word, but the best I can come up with now -- left behind by the Dwemer as either a blessing or a curse, depending on how one looks at it. My favorite theory is that the Dwemer weren't really using the Heart for evil purposes, but their intent was misunderstood. Perhaps they left behind the knowledge to use the tools in an effort to somehow preserve themselves and/or their Chimer/Dunmer brethren. But the Heart corrupted the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, and maybe the intimate knowledge attained by Sotha Sil caused him to slowly go crazy, rather like Dagoth Ur did. Remember, Vivec said those two were the only ones who knew how to use the tools. That's assuming his word can be trusted, of course.

Ok, I've finally said it, I feel better. Now I'm shuttin' up, cuz I'm thinking of way too many tangents to post here.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/17/02 11:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Interesting With wild theories like this, you'll be a lore buff in no time

Of course, Sotha Sil may have worked it out based on what Kagrenac had written about them. Also, if what you say about the Dwemer using the heart to protect themselves and the Chimer, why didn't Dumac Dwarf-King know about it? Why didn't they tell the Chimer what they were doing? Why didn't the Chimer disappear when the Dwemer did?

I think that the Heart caused Kagrenac to go insane as well, which is why he did what he did.

-Striker

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tegger
(Adept)
09/17/02 11:50 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Too late, I'm already a lore buff, both in real life and in Tamriel.

Perhaps Dumac didn't know about it for the same reason Kagrenac and his elite Mechanists didn't tell the Chimer: Maybe they thought the knowledge was beyond comprehension outside the "inner circle," so they expected misunderstanding. At least one account of the Red Mt. thing said that Dumac was unaware of the Numidium until Nerevar confronted him, but of course, that's just one account, and who knows if it's "true." If my theory is anywhere close to "right," the Chimer didn't disappear because they themselves became the legacy of the Dwemer, and their new skin color as Dunmer was the manifestation of it.

Perhaps Kagrenac had intended things to be different, but tragedy came from not trusting other smart mer to help with whatever the intentions were.

Maybe.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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CatDragon
(Initiate)
09/18/02 12:00 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

One thing...Azura cursed the Chimer with dark skin.

---------------
"You must have misunderstood your question"- Dogbert

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/18/02 12:06 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

So the Dunmer are a sort of a combination between the Dwemer and Chimer? If that's the case, where does the Ash coloured skin come from (Both the Dwemer and Chimer had yellowish skin)?

We certainly don't have enough, let alone accurate, information regarding the Battle at Red Mountain to know what happened for certain. Pehaps we never will :\

Oh, and all we 'know' about the Elder Scrolls is that the Moth Preists use Runes on them to read the past, present and future.

-Striker

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Edited by Striker (09/18/02 12:08 AM)

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tegger
(Adept)
09/18/02 12:15 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: CatDragon] 

Yes, so the religious texts say (and so sayeth Vivec, too, but I'm not sure I trust him). Religious texts notoriously alter events that clerics (or in this case, perhaps the new "gods" themselves) believe would be too mind-boggling for the average person to understand. Actually, now that I think about it, even Vivec didn't specifically say Azura actually changed their skin. He just said it happened when she appeared to the Three after breaking their oath. He reported that she even said that it was their doing, not hers. Of course, the clerics would want to teach the faithful some sort of action-consequence lesson by perpetuating the "Azura curse" story.

Theories, just theories.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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tegger
(Adept)
09/18/02 12:21 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Well, they might be a combination, but I was thinking in more metaphysical terms. Maybe the actual coloring is symbolic, or maybe it has a deeper meaning than that. You're right that we may never know for sure, but what religion in the real world can actually "prove" its tenets or mythology, either? One could say it's all speculation, both in real life and in fiction, but it's still fun to go hmmmm...

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/18/02 01:22 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

There are a few major differences between real world religion and the Nirn religion, which are:
1. The Aedra and Daedra ('Gods') exist and can walk the mortal plane or directly influence it. They usually do this on a regular basis.
2. There are atleast 3 people alive during the Battle at Red mountain that are alive now (The Tribunal), while in RL, no-one alive today existed back when Jesus (or whatever) was alive. And even the Three cannot tell you, with certainty, what happened to the Dwemer.

Also, when it is said that it was thier doing, doesn't that mean that their choice of breaking the oath was why their skin changed? And if Azura has the power to change the skin of an entire race, why doesn't she have the power to destroy a race?

Indeed it is fun to go hmmm...

-Striker

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tegger
(Adept)
09/18/02 01:32 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

I agree that your second point shows a difference between one of Nirn's religions and most of Earth's religions. But I think your first point actually shows that there are similarities, too. There are several real religions (or belief systems, as I prefer to say) in which practitioners believe gods or other divine beings are able to communicate and even exist in the physical world as well as in "other realms." But I suppose we've long ago crossed into territory that's maybe beyond the scope of this thread.

[Edit] Oops, one more thing, cuz I forgot to address the part about Azura. I don't think she caused anything to happen. From all I've seen and heard, I'm led to believe she merely used her power of prophecy to tell the Tribunal "this is what will happen" and then it did. I get the feeling that Aedra and Daedra, though powerful, aren't quite what they're cracked up to be. Not even the nicer ones like Azura.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/18/02 02:30 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

In reply to:

"...practitioners believe gods..."




That is the point isn't it? They only believe that this is the case - there is no evidence that they do. The Daedra and Aedra DO appear. But yes, this isn't a religious thread. Back to the point.

I think that the Daedra and Aedra are more powerful than you think. If the Heart of Lorkhan (an Aedra) can give three mortals near god like powers, this points to the fact that an Aedra would be three times as powerful as a member of the Tribunal. Of course, they are easy to defeat in Morrowind 'cus they havn't been able to 'recharge' their powers for a while.

-Striker

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Caladan Brood
(Adept)
09/18/02 03:17 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

tegger,
"I don't think she caused anything to happen. From all I've seen and heard, I'm led to believe she merely used her power of prophecy to tell the Tribunal "this is what will happen" and then it did."

Can you provide me links to your resources (I expect not exactly, but I'm hoping). I'd be interested in reading that.

Like some of you, I'm highly interested in the disappearance of the dwarves, partly because it indirectly relates to a mod I'm making, and have read up a LOT on the subject.

Now, from reading a year-old thread started by Wormgod from 4/16/01 (yes, it's old, and I hope he doesn't hate me for drudging this up ) HERE, what we know now, and other stuff I've gathered here and there...and 'other' resources, I believe it's a possibility that the Tribunal (in whole or a part) is responsible for the disappearance of the dwarves, as they perceived them as a threat to their power. Which, if true, leaves the possibility of us finding out what happened in the upcoming expansion.

Wormgod says, "Is it possible that the Dwemer are ALL dead and that they may have deserved the "supposed" extinction?"

The use of the word 'deserved' is very interesting, considering the Dwemer were warmongers, creating a Brass God for, possibly, granting them power and domination over others.

Wormgod then says:Were the Dwemer a race/faction/house to be feared? And if so, who may have feared them?

And, obviously, who had the POWER to do something about it? This is why I think the Tribunal is responsible (more about 'fear' below). Although, who else has this power? It's possible Azura does, and perhaps there's some truth to the story of Azura's box, making Azura predisposed to dislike the Dwemer, even before their attempt for godly power.

Sir Auryn later posts, Question: What god did the Dwemer worship?

To which, Wormgod responds, No, the better question would be, "DID the Dwemer worship a God?"

Later, he posts, This brings us back to the topic of Vivec and company. Speaking only about Vivec (this goes for his pals of course too), is he REALLY considered a God who lives among people? General Patton swept across a many battlefield, and many think him a great man. But, that doesnt exactly make him a God ya know. In a fantasy setting now, Vivec once did the same. He faught in a great battle and currently uses his "aquired" magics to hold off the blighted forces. More can be learned about him in Morrowind, but from what we "currently" know about him, we cannot trully label him a God can we? Maybe he is no more than a simple hero.

So, we have Vivic & his pals, risen to the status of gods, but not truly gods.
We have the Dwemer a race of powerful warmongers that do not worship gods. Perhaps, they even denounce the 'gods' of the Tribunal, refusing to acknowledge them as such. And, they are about to create a Brass God, that might, perhaps elevate them to power greater than the Tribunal, thus threatening their own power, not only because the Dwemer might become more powerful than the Tribunal, but also because people may question the 'godliness' of the Tribunal members. Obviously, the Tribunal would 'fear' this happening. That's my theory, anyway.

However, Wormgod might have been yanking people's chains, too, or the reason that was conceived originally by the devs has been modified at bit.

Also, and I know it's been discussed many times, even if the Tribunal was responsible, what did they actually do? Were the dwarves killed? Sent to Oblivion? Changed into something else?

What B said above, "What intrigues me is that the Anumidum is known as the Brass God and believed to affect time. I find it interesting that Sotha Sil, the Clockwork King [Time? - B] is "reshaping the world from his hidden, clockwork city (of brass)" I did not know this before, that the Brass God possibly affects time. So, perhaps we should be asking when the dwemer went, not where.

Sorry if this post isn't clearly written, I'm half asleep right now.

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/18/02 03:42 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Caladan Brood] 

Interesting, however, Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil used Lorkhan's Heart to make themseleves very

much God like. AND this only happened after the Battle at Red Mountain, which of course is when

the Dwemer vanished. Therefore, during the Battle at Red Mountain, the Tribunal figures were

mortal. This battle took place at around 1E668, some 2500 years before the end of the First Era.

The Second Era goes for some 900 years, which brings us to when Morrowind takes place 3E414. So,

that makes the Tribunal figures over 3800 years old. I'd call that quite a feat. I doubt even the oldest Telvanni mage it that old.

Also, some of the pieces are given if you do the main quest, speak with all of the main characters, and read the information you are given.

-Striker

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Kyosho
(Novice)
09/18/02 06:08 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

It must be great for the devs to see people think with such deep thoughts and speculation about a world they created. I bet it's one of their favorite things, to read threads like this. I envy them greatly.

I want to become a writer. Perhaps some day people will discuss my books in such a way. One can only dream.

Kyosho
-------------------
Conventional complaint of prophets: No one pays any attention to us.

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B
(Curate)
09/18/02 06:31 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

In reply to:

Posted by Striker:

Interesting, however, Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil used Lorkhan's Heart to make themseleves very much God like. AND this only happened after the Battle at Red Mountain, which of course is when the Dwemer vanished. Therefore, during the Battle at Red Mountain, the Tribunal figures were mortal. This battle took place at around 1E668, some 2500 years before the end of the First Era.

The Second Era goes for some 900 years, which brings us to when Morrowind takes place 3E414. So, that makes the Tribunal figures over 3800 years old. I'd call that quite a feat. I doubt even the oldest Telvanni mage it that old.



Excellent point!

Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil certainly were not as powerful during the time of Red Mt. (battle) as they were later on. They still may have commanded respect and been feared, but they had not become gods.

An old theory that I have/had and somewhat abandoned was based on the whole Dragon Break time shifting idea. I wanted to look into the possibity of powerful beings being able to travel to different points in time. It would be similar to the Elder Scrolls: It is believed that they can be made to show the past, present, and future. What would happen if someone could not only show what happens in each case, but actually go there? I never really pursued the theory any further...

That theory could account for beings seeming to live for thousands and thousands of years. Maybe they aren't actually that old. Maybe they just have appeared at different points in time, and when people did the math, they determined that the beings must be extremely old and powerful.

Unfortunately, I don't think the theory works in the case of the Tribunal. Another possiblity is that they are just REALLY, REALLY old!

~B

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stingray420
(Adept)
09/18/02 08:37 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

The Dwarfs have also been driving me nuts as of late. There are so many clues in the game sometimes it feels like the answer is just right there, just out of reach. And reading this thread, with 4 or more diffrent theroies of what happened to them I am more confused now:)

But I think B's last Time Travel theory sounds very much like it might be the right answer. I mean there are no Dwarf bones, there are Dwarf ghosts but they could be from long before they disappeared.

Here is my theory, not based from anything but more like expanding on B's idea, and some from a post above.

The Dwemer, having discovered the way to travel through time decided that the current time was not the best place for them. With the Chimer heros becomeing gods the emergeny plan was enatcted. The would travel to a point in the future where there was less of a threat to them. The reason there are the clockwork guards is becasue the knew they were comming back. And would one day reclaim there citys. Something must have gone wrong, becasue they were gone for much too long. And is the reason there cities are in such disrepair. I think sometime in the future of the Elder Scroll series we will find a whole ton of Dwarfs mulling around:)

Again just my thoughts on all that i have read, not really based on anything.

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tegger
(Adept)
09/18/02 10:55 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Caladan Brood] 

Re: "Can you provide me links to your resources (I expect not exactly, but I'm hoping). I'd be interested in reading that."

All my material is on my other computer, and I only have one monitor, which makes it a pain in the butt to go back and forth. But later I'll gather up what I can and post about it in the Elder Scrolls forum.

Not everything I'm thinking about is based on a particular resource (some is), but more of a "gut instinct" based on a combination of known fictional lore and how real world mythologies evolve.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Caladan Brood
(Adept)
09/18/02 11:27 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Striker,

I guess I should get around to finishing the game sometime, eh? I don't think I ever got past half-way before I started modding.

However, since I have obviously not seen/read everything you have, I have a few questions.

Interesting, however, Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil used Lorkhan's Heart to make themseleves very much God like. AND this only happened after the Battle at Red Mountain, which of course is when the Dwemer vanished. Therefore, during the Battle at Red Mountain, the Tribunal figures were mortal

When (what year) did the Tribunal using Lorkhan's Heart? You say that this happened after the Battle as if this is a fact, but now that I'm thinking of it, I realize I never knew the order of events. I had this vague idea that perhaps the Tribunal was trying to wrest control of the heart away from Dwemer while the Battle of Red Mountain was going on, or something like that, because I never knew which year the Tribunal used the heart, and figure, since they were at the Battle, they used it then.

So, that makes the Tribunal figures over 3800 years old. I'd call that quite a feat. I doubt even the oldest Telvanni mage it that old.

Er, yes...sorry, I got little sleep last night, and I'm missing the point of this math here. If the Tribunal used the Heart to gain god-like powers, I'd assume that is why they have lived so long, unless you're trying to point something else out? Sorry, I just woke up.

Now, B's & Stingray's theories are interesting, also. Before last night and reading this thread, I never knew the Brass God had anything to do with time...hm....guess I should really finish playing the game someday.

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/18/02 01:33 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Caladan Brood] 

I would like once again to quote my favorite text on these matters, supposedly by Vivec himself, "The Battle of Red Mountain, and the Rise and Fall of the Tribunal"

[The following is a transcript of the words of Lord Vivec, addressed to a Dissident Priest, Malur Omayn, who confronted Vivec with the Ashlander traditions surrounding the Battle of Red Mountain and with prophecies of the Nerevarine, and to unnamed magistrates of the Inquisition who joined Vivec in interrogating the Dissident Priest.]
...
The Dwemer were well-defended by their fortress at Red Mountain, but Nerevar's cunning drew most of Dumac's armies out into the field and pinned them there, while Nerevar, Dagoth Ur, and a small group of companions could make their way into the Heart Chamber by secret means. There, Nerevar the Chimer King met Dumac the Dwarf King and they both collapsed from grievous wounds and draining magics. With Dumac fallen, and threatened by Dagoth Ur and others, Kagrenac turned his tools upon the Heart, and Nerevar said he saw Kagrenac and all his Dwemer companions at once disappear from the world. In that instant, Dwemer everywhere disappeared without a trace. But Kagrenac's tools remained, and Dagoth Ur seized them, and he carried them to Nerever, saying, "That fool Kagrenac has destroyed his own people with these things. We should destroy them, right away, lest they fall into the wrong hands."...

So it seems Kagrenac used the tools on the heart in a last ditch defense situation - weather the dissapearance was the result of a mistake made in the confusion of th esituation or a long prepared option remains unclear, but I would rather tend to believe the latter, from the way the situation is described.

another section on the changing of the dunmer :
...For some years we kept the oaths we swore to Azura with Nerevar, but during that time, in secret, Sotha Sil must have studied the tools and divined their mysteries. And at last he came to us with a vision of a new world of peace, with justice and honor for nobles, and health and prosperity for the commoners, with the Tribunal as immortal patrons and guides. And dedicating ourselves to this vision of a better world, we made a pilgrimage to Red Mountain and transformed ourselves with the power of Kagrenac's tools.

At this time they are still regular chimer then, and it is Sotha Sil who unveils the mysteries of the tools - does he have them still, BTW?

And no sooner than we had completed our rituals and begun to discover our new-found powers, the Daedra Lord Azura appeared and cursed us for our foresworn oaths. By her powers of prophecy, she assured us that her champion, Nerevar, true to his oath, would return to punish us for our perfidy, and to make sure such profane knowledge might never again be used to mock and defy the will of the gods. But Sotha Sil said to her, "The old gods are cruel and arbitrary, and distant from the hopes and fears of mer. Your age is past. We are the new gods, born of the flesh, and wise and caring of the needs of our people. Spare us your threats and chiding, inconstant spirit. We are bold and fresh, and will not fear you."

Note how it is Sotha Sil that not only led them to their quest for godhood, but also made the tools for it, and speaks the fateful words of defiance to Azura?

And then, in that moment, all Chimer were changed into Dunmer, and our skins turned ashen and our eyes into fire. Of course, we only knew at that time that this had happened to us, but Azura said, "This is not my act, but your act. You have chosen your fate, and the fate of your people, and all the Dunmer shall share your fate, from now to the end of time. You think yourselves gods, but you are blind, and all is darkness." And Azura left us alone, in darkness, and we were all afraid, but we put on brave faces, and went forth from Red Mountain to build the new world of our dreams.

The oath that was broken, was not to use the tools for "profane use" as the dwemer had intended. It seems that the change in the dunmer was affected from this braking of oath, when the Tribunal made themselves god.

I think this account is very close to the truth for the following reasons:
- Vivec was really there
- The record is passed on by a dissident priest - a group more interested in the true nature of matters than the temple in general
- Vivecs own account is rather harsh with his own role indicating a certain frustration with the state of things
- The tone of voice is much more clear than in the more arcane pieces we have on the matter, yet fit as an underlying tuth to the myths.

From this text I see no direct involvement of Sotha Sil with the dwemer prior to his interest in the tools of Kagrenac - but it would certainly make sense that he studied their science in his quest to understand the tools and make them useful to his purposes, thus learning (and still using) much of their technology.





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Caladan Brood
(Adept)
09/18/02 02:07 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

Many thanks for the post, I've never read this account before. I agree with your points that support the validity of Vivec's account, and that it's probably basically accurate, as much as one person's view recorded by others can be.

So it seems Kagrenac used the tools on the heart in a last ditch defense situation - weather the dissapearance was the result of a mistake made in the confusion of th esituation or a long prepared option remains unclear, but I would rather tend to believe the latter, from the way the situation is described.

While I agree that one of these two options is most likely what happened (probably the latter, as you say), let me throw out a third possibility. Later in the account, it implies that Azura has vast power, indicated by the ability change the whole Chimer race (I take here phrase, "This is not my act, but your act." in the same way as parents punishing children say, "You did this to yourself."). And, her actions were in response to using the heart for 'profane' means, as the Dwemer intended. Is it therefore possible that Azura intervened, right as Kagrenac was going to use the Heart? However, if she did so, I would think she would tell someone what she did, perhaps the Tribunal, as a warning. Just throwing ideas out there; I like this discussion, and am hoping for more info.

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ims199
(Layman)
09/18/02 02:59 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

Going on about Kagrenac's tools, I don�t think we find out much about them, but they have the power to manipulate or destroy the power of a god. This has bugged me for a bit, the heart is the manifestation of the power of a god, yet all you have to do to destroy it is to hit it a couple of time with Sunder and Keening. I know this is vaguely off topic but so it most of this thread.

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/18/02 03:18 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: ims199] 

Caladan Brood- putting our discussions to good use I see

ims199- I agree with your point. However, an interesting thing to note is that the Nerevarine's use of the tools on the Heart weren't actually supposed to destroy the Heart. It was supposed to destroy the enchantment upon the Heart.

I think this is important. When you "kill" the Heart, it kind of shrivels and dissapears. What is happening here? Did you actually destroy it? Did the severing of the enchantment and the Heart somehow remove it from the mortal plane? Where did it go? Do the Aedra move it to somewherer else?

Additionally- what becomes of Lorkhan in this case? He's a dead God, right? So, if his divine center is destroyed, does he DIE die? Or maybe, if the Heart is not destroyed, it returns to him?

Or maybe, since he is separate from it already, nothing happens. But all hope of his seeing it again is lost.

Sorry to deviate so far off topic but this is my current area of interest.

Raptormeat

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/18/02 03:29 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Maybe its like the description for Sotha Sils machine - "It can not b repaired now ... nothing has broken but everything is changed"

I would assume you are correct in saying that its not destroyed - after all even the Dagtoth and the tribunal-to-be ever only thought about destroying the tools, never about the heart itself (despite them being mer, and thus supposed to hate Lorkhan).

The idea of a revived Lorkhan is certainly intriguing - what would such a god do?

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Nazz
(Curate)
09/18/02 04:43 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

It is possible that by destroying the heart we have freed Lorkhan from his prison like sentence on Nirn. So maybe he has returned to Aetherius.

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Sotha Sil
(Layman)
09/18/02 05:53 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

I watch. I wonder. I build. I tear down.

Am I a god? A surely as any are.

Gods have forever to measure their words. Mortals only moments to hear them.

Is the Lord Vivec a god? As surely as I am.

Vivec is a poet. Trust not the words of a poet, as he is born to seduce. Yet for poetry to sieze the heart, it must ring with the chimes of truth.

Is the Lady Almalexia a god? As surely as is Lord Vivec.

Almalexia is a warrior. Beware the warrior, as her steel may not distinguish friend from foe. But in a true hand, a sharp blade may carve history.

Again you ask, am I a god?

I am Sotha Sil. I am the Mage. I am the Clockmaker.

You ask where my Clockwork City is? Some say in the swamps of Black Marsh. Others claim it is deep in the ground beneath Ebonheart. I have even heard it told that my city is contained within a jar on the Lady Almalexia's mantle. These are all true, and false. My city is where I live, and I live in my city. Its location is unimportant, as I am its only citizen.

The Dwemer were the Dwemer. The Chimer were the Chimer. Now the Dwemer are gone and the Chimer are changed. Azura's words weigh heavy, but we have discussed the words of gods already, have we not?

I am Sotha Sil.

I watch. I wonder. I build. I tear down.

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deconite
(Acolyte)
09/18/02 06:21 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

The elder scrolls really has the best game world lore of any other game established. I enjoy its independence from LOTR.

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B
(Curate)
09/18/02 07:30 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

Ahh, Sotha Sil...

...I was wondering if *someone* was going to show up.
------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Sorry we hijacked your thread, WNightBlade...

Raptormeat, I remembered this passage, and it seems to apply. It comes from the New and Improved Monomyth. Specifically, the Altmeri "The Heart of the World." It used to be known as the High Elven (Altmeri) Creation Myth.

"But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, "This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." So Auriel fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea, where no aspect of the new world may ever find it."

Obviously, it cannot hold too much truth, for if it were true, the PC wouldn't have been able to find the Heart. It does seem to state that the Heart of Lorkhan cannot be destoryed. Also, if "one was made to satisfy the other," then I would think that destorying one would have serious repercussions on the other. Whether it is true or not, I cannot say.

~B


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Edited by B (09/18/02 07:53 PM)

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/18/02 08:29 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

I've always thought that the tools were Saunder and Keening. They were the tools the Tribunal used to replenish their powers, until the tools were captured by Dagoth Ur. Which was one of the reasons why they could not go back to the heart.

Caladan Brood: My point about the age of the Tribunal was basically proof that they are God-like. You questioned if they were infact Gods, and I was just backing my point up with how old they are.

It is possible that Azura caused the Dwemer to vanish. Perhaps Kargenarc was going to make all the Dwemer God-like. If the punishment for THREE members of a race using the Heart is to have their skin changed, I can only imagine the consequences for trying to make your entire race God-like.

B: Your theory seems to have a grain of truth regarding the Tribunal. When you speak with Vivec, he speaks about being a God. He mentions that they are half way between the Mortal Plane and Aetherius, where it appears that time seems to stand still. Time for them is abitrary - almost.

As for where the Heart went. It may have done a similar trick to the Artifacts found throughout Tamriel. When they are 'used up', they dissapear and reappear somewhere else, which allows another great hero to find them. Perhaps the Heart reappeared somewhere else and will be found again in the future. If it is the Heart of the World, I doubt it could leave the Mortal Plane.

Also, I doubt the Dwemer traveled through time into the future. If they had, wouldn't the Elder Scrolls make reference to them, since they can be used to read the Past, Present and Future?

-Striker

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deconite
(Acolyte)
09/18/02 09:32 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

"Unfortunately, I don't think the theory works in the case of the Tribunal. Another possiblity is that they are just REALLY, REALLY old! "

If you do remember, the dwarf in the corprusarium was alive at least before the Dwemer dissapeared. As such, he is at least as old as Vivec, Amalexia, ect. Thus, age is not the issue. I suggest you all go back to the part before you embark upon red mountain and have the opportunity to talk to Vivec. You get to ask him what it's like to be a God. This is the definition of God within the elder scrolls. This is what it is to be a God, and why, the tribunal, is, in fact, a bunch of Gods. Also, the Tribunal didn't exist before the Battle of red mountain. The three became the tribunal afterwards.

Also, one cannot draw parellels between human religion and that in the Elder Scrolls. I'm into the elder scrolls religion. I enjoy it. Why? Because it is an actual contemporary force within the game. It is integral. There is no mystery or faith to it. This is how the elder scrolls works. This is a fantasy game. We here in the real world have nothing like Daedra, magic, soul-trapping, and contemporary disciples and ghosts to fight in order to rienforce this idea of religion. It is not build solidly into the foundations of our day to day lives.

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/18/02 10:00 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: deconite] 

The 'Last living Dwarf' has had a prolonged life from the Corprus. (Long life being one of the more beneficial side effects). This means that your character in Morrowind will also not die of old age, due to having the Corprus and then getting the bad side effects removed via Divayth Fyr's potion. Since the Heart of Lorkhan and the Blight are most likley integrated in some fashion, this is probably why.

Of course, this may change once the heart has been destroyed.

I use Tribunal more as a word that refers to Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Vivec as opposed to it's proper use which would be only after the Battle at Red Mountain. Much easier to write you know

-Striker

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tegger
(Adept)
09/18/02 10:55 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Hmmm... After some consideration, I decided not to post my further thoughts on the subjects I was discussing here. To fully illustrate my thoughts and theories, I would have had to bring up comparisons with real world religions and mythologies (trust me, there ARE valid comparisons). I now think that certain points might be somewhat touchy with some folks, especially those that might seem against their real-world personal beliefs, and the LAST thing I'd want to do is accidentally offend anyone.

But do carry on, all... I enjoy your posts.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Reubin Halfmoon
(Layman)
09/18/02 11:07 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

I read. I ponder. I search. I mock.

I need not ask whether you are a god for I know the TRUTH. You and the rest of the so called Triangled Truth are no more gods than the Sharmat. You steal the essence of an Aedra and that makes you divine? Laughable I must say.

I will admit that you have done many good deads in the name of our people. But all things in time will pass. The winds of change knock you off your feet and yet you claim the air is calm. I sense this change and embrace it.

Hard times approach like goblins in the night. Be ever ready.

I AM Indoril Halfmoon.

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Srikandi
(Curate)
09/18/02 11:27 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: deconite] 

As to the attributes of Elder Scrolls religions and human religions: there certainly are contemporary human religions that have the characteristics you mention, or whose followers believe they do. I know a Javanese anthropologist who spoke in great detail about a ghost he encountered once in a graveyard. Despite extensive Western education, there was no question in his mind about whether it was real. Go to Bali and you will see that everybody leaves food offerings around the house every day to appease spirits. A friend of mine once told me that the only reason there are no ghosts in America is that nobody feeds them!

This isn't only an "exotic" phenomenon -- mainstream Catholics and other Christians believe in the direct intervention of God and saints in everyday life (i.e. miracles), and also the direct involvement of demons (possession and exorcism).

And there are certainly religious (or "cult") leaders alive today who, like Vivec, claim to be gods or to have acquired godlike attributes through mystical practices, and whose followers believe them.

What's cool about MW is that it puts those of us who are skeptical of such ideas into the shoes of someone who believes -- which is an interesting experience. I have to say that when I first played the game I was quite convinced that Vivec was going to turn out to be a hoax... staying in that mysterious palace and seeing very few people... shades of the Wizard of Oz. But then I got to meet him, and sure enough he was levitating in midair. It's interesting though that the game does leave the player room for quite a lot of doubt about whether they really are the Nerevarine... a rationalist would say that the prophecies were self-fulfilling... you performed the acts expected of the Nerevarine precisely because, for obscure reasons, the Emperor wanted the the Dunmer to believe that the Nerevarine had reappeared.

Which brings me to my question for you lore guys: why exactly was the Emperor so interested in having the Nerevarine prophecies fulfilled? He isn't a Dunmer, and thus shouldn't believe in the divinity of the Tribunal. Does he nonetheless somehow appreciate the threat posed by Dagoth Ur to the stability of the Empire?

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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Nazz
(Curate)
09/18/02 11:56 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

In reply to:

Which brings me to my question for you lore guys: why exactly was the Emperor so interested in having the Nerevarine prophecies fulfilled? He isn't a Dunmer, and thus shouldn't believe in the divinity of the Tribunal. Does he nonetheless somehow appreciate the threat posed by Dagoth Ur to the stability of the Empire?



In my opinion he doesn't necesarily want the prophecies fulfilled. He just realizes that if Morrowind continues towards chaos then it will eventually break away from the rest of the Empire. Once that happens the rest of the Empire would crumble as a result. So he sends you to Morrowind to pose as the Nerevarine and hopefully take everyones mind off the current state of the Empire.

-----------------
Nazz the Curate
Yes, It hurts
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/18/02 11:56 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Reubin Halfmoon] 

I disagree that stealing the essence of an Aedra makes them divine. It makes them powerful - a shadow of a God is still a sight to behold. It makes them weak - a parasite on the Heart of the World. Breaking the link will surely break them, to a point. It's this duality that makes them more sympathetic to the plight of their fellow Mer. It doesn't stop them lying.

Vivec is World Tired and will accept the change, while the other two facets of the Triangled Falsities... we'll have to wait and see.

Beware the Mad God!

-Striker

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WNightBlade
(Layman)
09/19/02 12:09 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

I read. I play. I fight. I nap.

I am not a god, because my HP is far too low. Trust not the gods, for any god with HP is a god that can be killed, and thus not a god at all.

Is Vivec a god?

Vivec is a poet. Trust not in him, for nothing he says makes any sense.

Is Sotha Sil a god? Is Almalexia a god? Sotha Sil isn't yet in the game. Neither is Almalexia. Ponder not the ways of NPCs you have yet to meet.

I am Will NightBlade. I am the warrior-mage. I am a high-level PC.

You ask where my clockwork watch is? They are on my wrist. They move through battery, with Seiko Japanese movement. They have forsaken the spring and the gear. The watch tells my time. Its model is important, for I am its only user.

The Dwemer were the Dwemer. The Dunmer were the Drow-er, Dunmer. Now the Dwemer are hopefully in the next game and the Dunmer are everywhere. Azura's words weigh heavy, but she gave me a sweet soul gem, so I cannot complain.

I read. I play. I fight. I nap.

(If this doesn't get me outright banned from the board, I REALLY hope that was worthy of an insert of Will NightBlade into Tribunal, as a corpse who was smitten by the gods for being a smartass. )

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/19/02 12:56 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

You speak of Holy Penance and Gods with Holy Penance. You talk of being a high level Political Concubine and The Three being in a game. I have not played such a thing, perhaps it is a new one made by the children. You speak of Dwemer contraptions and the ability of it to read Magnus, Masser and Secunda.

You are a fool in fools clothing. Learn the truth as I stuff your mouth with birds.

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deconite
(Acolyte)
09/19/02 01:08 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

"I am not a god, because my HP is far too low. Trust not the gods, for any god with HP is a god that can be killed, and thus not a god at all. "

But, once again, the Elder Scrolls gods are far different than the standards of the Christian, or any religion, for that matter, of Jewish origion, and also different from Hindu, ect. For instance, the Aedra are the creators, but they can be killed, eliminated forever from the world, and oblivion. The Daedra can only change, but, even when they die in this world, they just go back to oblivion (a very real place of the dead, and I expect you all remember the different Daedra Lords and the natures of their rules in Oblivion), possibly at a later date. The Daedra, all daedra, are just mortals of the world who died long ago, and became very powerfull in Oblivion. Daedra lords such as Malacath were some of the origional beings of the world. The Tribunal, although they did not derive their power from their time in oblivion, still had real power, and the awareness and influence of a God. I expect that, should they die, they would become powerfull indeed in Oblivion, and ascend to the status of Daedra lord themselves (after a few thousand years).

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WNightBlade
(Layman)
09/19/02 01:19 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: deconite] 

There's only ONE god! He is the SUN god! RA! RA! RA!

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tegger
(Adept)
09/19/02 01:20 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: deconite] 

Re: "But, once again, the Elder Scrolls gods are far different than the standards of the Christian, or any religion, for that matter, of Jewish origion, and also different from Hindu, ect"

What about pagan and neo-pagan beliefs? I caution you not to discount them from being real (valid) just because you personally may not believe in them. And many of these belief systems are quite similar in many aspects to many of the religions in these games.

Oops, I wasn't gonna do that. Sorry.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/19/02 01:35 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

I believe that 'Pagan' and 'Neo-Pagan' are covered in the all encompassing ETC

And we are not saying that they are not similar. We are saying that the main difference is that in TES is that the Gods exist.

And WNightBlade: The Sun God in TES is Magnus :P

-Striker

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
09/19/02 01:40 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Geez, no one here likes satire, no one likes Discordian jokes. Maaaaaan.

I personally am waiting for this threat to erupt into a violent clash between followers of the Tribunal and followers of Azura.

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tegger
(Adept)
09/19/02 01:46 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Re: "We are saying that the main difference is that in TES is that the Gods exist."

Okey-doke. Though I have further rebuttals, I'll refrain from making them, because that part is getting a weeee bit too close to home. And this is supposed to be fun. Carry on.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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tegger
(Adept)
09/19/02 01:47 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

I liked it.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/19/02 01:50 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Since I'm not familiar with the Pagan religion (Or Neo-Pagan for that matter) I have no idea what you are refering to. If you could explain what you mean, that would be great! If it's too personal, then don't worry about it.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
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tegger
(Adept)
09/19/02 01:55 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Well, though it's personal, I wouldn't mind sharing under other circumstances. But from past experience, trust me, it's REALLY easy to purposely or accidentally start a flame war when discussing personal beliefs (especially religious ones). I just don't want to put the spark here, if you know what I mean.

"Young enough to say I don't give a **** and old enough to mean it." ~ Me

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/19/02 02:06 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

OK, curiosity killed the Khajiit, so I'll drop it

-Striker

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Avatar_16
(Acolyte)
09/19/02 02:35 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

im too lazy to quote, but someone said earlier that mabe the dwemer didnt disapear, but were transported through time.
i havent been keeping up much, but last time i checked, Fabricants were pretty mysterious. mabe the fabricants are the dwemer, transported to the furture. might fit in a little with what someone was saying about how mabe the dwemer were changed like the chimer. MABE now they are fabricants.

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Srikandi
(Curate)
09/19/02 02:36 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Well, I'll be a little bolder than Tegger and take this on. "The main difference is that in TES is that the Gods exist"? Members of every religion believe that their gods exist. That's what it means to have a religion. Many people will report personal experience proving this. And this is true both in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition and in many others. As to the physical presence of God in the world... here religions vary of course, and even within a religion there are varying doctrines, but certainly it is quite mainstream to believe in gods that may take on human form or living incarnations of the divine, as in (some views of) Jesus, or Krishna, an incarnation of Vishnu. Fully mortal divinities living among us in historical times? We have the god-kings of various East and Southeast Asian traditions. This sort of belief system is probably closest to what is suggested of the Tribunal.

I think regardless of one's personal belief system, it is certainly the case that the basic shape of religion in TES reflects many real-world religious traditions.

And even in TES, as has been pointed out, there's some question even in the gameworld as to whether the Tribunal are "real" gods or not. This will depend on how we define the category "god". What matters for the present discussion is that many folks in the gameworld believe they are.

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/19/02 04:11 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

Good points, sirkandi. I might add that the gods of "Daggerfall" were much less "present" in the world - in fact several temple quests involved uncovering false prophets and disproving false miracles - so these would be seen as rare and mostly legendary events in this "western" religion, much like the christian tradition.

Now the Daedra could be summoned and directly contacted in that game - and they are seen as gods by the dunmer, but as mere "spirit lords" or even daemons by men.

Now compared to our world things are complicated by the de-facto existence of magic, so properties (like eternal life, abilities to float in air, raise dead) that would seem miraculous or divine in our world are quite suspect of being profane magic in Tamriel.

I guess the degree of divinity would be an elusive quality in Tamriel - the degree of connection to the spiritual plane e.g. Not so much a matter of power as a matter of the distance from the mortal plane so to speak. In this sense the tribunal would appear to be lower deities, if gods at all. Of course we dont know their "state of mind" but we know they are still very involved in matters of the mortal plane.

So whats the new "God of Worms" doing anyway. Could he be the "Mad God" of Tribunal? (*crosses fingers there will be sloads in Tribunal*)

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B
(Curate)
09/19/02 07:57 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

I must say that this thread has really drifted off course. That doesn't mean that there aren't some great ideas being presented in here.

I, too, will avoid the whole religious debate. There are so many beliefs out there that I wouldn't want to misrepresent any of them. Who am I to say that someone's god really doesn't exist: Like I really know!

One particular person that I find interesting is the Dalai Lama. I must confess that I do not know too much about the topic, but I find the whole way that the Dalai Lama is "discovered" to be fascinating.

Back to TES...I find it great that you are able to investigate, not only the god status of Vivec, but also whether or not you are truly the Shadow of Nerevar. Even in the end, you may still question it.

In Tribunal, Almalexia and Sotha Sil will provide addition clues. When the Clockwork City is discovered, whether it be buried beneath Ebonheart or atop a mantle, the mystery of the Tribunal will be discovered (hopefully).

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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highpressure
(Layman)
09/19/02 09:14 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

"I must say that this thread has really drifted off course. That doesn't mean that there aren't some great ideas being presented in here."


I agree B. I was really enjoying this thread in the beginning, but now you guys are getting a bit too personal. Let's remember that Morrowind, Tribunal, or whatever is a game!! This is not real life people! So can we get back to what we think the expansion "GAME" Tribunal will offer?

Some of the ideas posted earlier were very interesting and made for a good read. So can we get back on topic here? Thank You!

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Jonus Bloodstorm
(Curate)
09/19/02 12:07 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: highpressure] 

I must say, this is a rather intresting thread to read. But sadly I have little to comment about the ties of the Dwemer and Morrowind, since my own concern is hacking away anything in my way and making friends with everyone non hostile NPC. Oh well.

The answer to section 27, subset roman numerical III, part c is........4?
Member number 2 of PLIF clut. www.plif.com
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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/19/02 12:45 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Jonus Bloodstorm] 

I think the major difference between Tamriel's religions and Earth's is this-

On Earth, we disagree about the basic existence of God(s). IS there one? Are there many? If so, what are they? What are their aspects? Did he/she/it create the world? Etc etc etc. The questions are broad and for every person that claims to know the answer, there are ten saying that that person is incorrect.

In Tamriel, however, those aren't the questions. The Gods and Demons are KNOWN- they are the Et'Ada. The Gods are the Aedra and the Demons are the Daedra. Simple as that. The differences lie in the particulars (as in, who in particular should we worship, did they create us or did they sire us, etc etc).

I think this is what Striker means when he said that in Tamriel, the Gods exist. In Tamriel, you can't HELP but acknowledge the existence of the Gods, as they tend to influence life on a regular basis. Clearly this point is more clear in regards to Daedra but the point remains the same.

Look at it this way- if there was someone who claimed that Daedra didn't exist, you could point to many real-world, observable instances which give evidence to the contrary. You can get quests from them, you can summon them, you can evn travel to their plane of existence. IN such a world where the Gods are so knowable, a "skeptic" becomes a fool with his hands over his eyes.*

All of Nirn's cultures have different versions of the exact same creation Myth. It's very different from Earth, where you'd be hard pressed to find the common story between the many religion's creation myths. And, although I realize that there are people that do that kind of work, to my knowledge no one has ever come up with the kind of corrolations that exist in the stories of Tamriel's religions.

And, of course, this is not to say that this makes our religions any less real or important than Tamriel's. But it points pout an important difference.

Raptormeat

*Even the "monotheistic" Alessian Order acknowledged the existence of the Gods. They just viewed them in a different light (sainthood)

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Jonus Bloodstorm
(Curate)
09/19/02 12:48 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Good stance of logic.

The answer to section 27, subset roman numerical III, part c is........4?
Member number 2 of PLIF clut. www.plif.com
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Sotha Sil
(Layman)
09/19/02 02:47 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Reubin Halfmoon] 

Thieves? An interesting concept. Did we steal the essence of the Divine, or was it given to us freely, that we might lead our people into a new age?

Few called us thieves when by words and by rite the Princes of Oblivion were bound to a truce. Fewer still when Mehrunes Dagon broke that truce and himself was broken on the soil of Mournhold.

The events of Red Mountain happened so long ago. What has Lord Vivec told you about that day? Did he wrap it in riddles, give you an array of possible pasts all leading to the same inevitable future? That is his way.

Do not curse him for this, as this is what he is. A puzzle. The opposition to his own viewpoint.

Almalexia would tell the story best, I think. She of us all was the closest to Nerevar. Lover. Counsel. General. And she of us all wears the mantle of a god most proudly. She has walked among the people and learned their frailties. Learned them well.

Men of god? Gods of men? Which should you fear most?

You wonder where the Dwemer have gone? Perhaps better to wonder why one remains. Even gods dislike the absolute, for it stinks of something larger than themselves.

Still I watch.

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Reubin Halfmoon
(Layman)
09/19/02 03:34 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

Given freely? Interesting, then my question for you is this what crime would you charge of the Sharmat and the Dwemer. Other than being threats to your power.

I have heard the story of your truce with the Daedra, and your victory over Mehrunes Dagon. I have also heard rumor that the truce was not broken, that a vengeful witch summoned forth the Daedra Prince, but I must admit I do not know the exact arangements of your agreement so I cannot truly say.

I would much like to speak with the Lady Almalexia. Perhaps I shall visit the city of Almalexia in the near future.

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/19/02 04:17 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

Hmmm, I have to read up on that topic, the defeat of Mehrunes Dagon - after all one of the Daedra princes... If the gods dislike the absolute, is there than an unchanged Chimer left in the world?


---//Forum Scholars guild\\---

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/19/02 04:19 PM
Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: WNightBlade] 

Upon arriving at my tower, I was informed by one of my wives that a wonderous discussion has taken place without my knowlege. Bear with me, for my long journey has left me weary.

And so, the debate over the Tribunal, Kagrenac's tools, and the Dwemer has arisen once again! My dear up-and-coming scholars, the facts are there! Can you not see the truth? Allow me to prod a bit on your senses in order to bring some light into this topic.

The Tribunal....
Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil are God heroes, are they not? Self made upon using Kagrenac's tools (which I will discuss in a bit) upon Lorkhan's Heart. Azura punished them, and their peoples (yes, including me!). The dark skin and fiery eyes is a visible and alarming reminder. Is this coincidence that the change happened upon the breaking of the oath? Azura is indeed the culprit. Had the "Tribunal" not undergone this deed, Azura would have taken no action. Did Azura take the lives of the Dwemer for attepting use of the Heart? A question that only the Goddess can answer, but I do not believe so. Nobody knows what plans Kagrenac had for the Heart. Perhaps Kagrenac's use of the Heart was the undoing of the Dwemer. Either by plan or by mistake. This is of little concern to the Tribunal. They got what they came for. To walk in the "Shadows of Gods". To send their general off to a Battle and recover their prize. Nerevar was, in my opinion, expendable, to them. Nerevar would know the truth behind the Dwemer and the Tribunal hunger for Power. This brings me to another matter.... did Nerevar indeed die of his wounds, or did the Tribunal fear his knowlege of the truth, and silence him, forever? Surely the Tribunal and Azura would know. Azura was quite fond of Nerevar, and it is possible that *IF* the Tribunal did exterminate Nerevar, Azura cursed the Tribunal and the chimer for this. The Dissident Priests seem to believe this aspect, as do I.

Kagrenac's Tools....
Keening, Sunder, and Wraithguard. The very same tools that Kagrenac designed and constructed to harness the Power of the Heart. Can these tools also be used to destroy the Heart? Are they intended to send the Heart back to it's origin? Or are they simply used as tools to draw forth Power for individual consumption? Well, we know how the Tribunal used them. The mystery is, what were Kagrenac's plans for them? Sotha Sil was able to decipher their use for tapping into the Power. The Tribunal paid a visit to Red mountain with the Tools and did just that, thus, becoming "God-Men".

The Dwemer....
First and foremost, one must ask themselves, were the dwemer a carefree or a careless race? Were they tolerable or were they tyrants? Did they create machines of offensive or defensive? What *IS* known is, they were great inventors of machine and construct. Magic was not favored by them, but it is rumored that there was some practice within their numbers.
Did the Tribunal fear them? We know that in order for the Tribunal to gain their "God-Men" Power, they had to defeat the Dwemer to recover what they had in their possession. It is not very likely that the Tribunal feared the Dwemer, they simply feared what the dwemer could become. Afterall, an entire race that was as poswerful as the small Tribunal would be quite a power to be reconned with.
Their disappearance is still a mystery that grows deeper and deeper with every step taken forward. We know that *ALL* Dwemer (with the exception of my good friend Yagrum) vanished when Kagrenac struck the Heart with his tools. Where they went is the true mystery. Many theories say they were transported to Oblivion. Quite a harsh place to *want* to go, if that was their plan. It is possible they went somewhere by accident. It is even possible they just ceased to exist at all. The idea that they are lost in time is quite new to me. I highly doubt that since the laws behind time would govern us to not even recall they even existed. Trully something supernatural, indeed. I *DO* know what happened, but in all reality, I do NOT know where they have gone or is they are in all truth, dead.

Perhaps, with the meeting of our minds and studies, we can find more meaning and resolve to these matters at hand. I have dedicated much of my time and work to this subject and expect to find some sense in it.

And beware the Tribunal. For years, they have known what we do not. They speak in odd Tongues and bite like snakes in tall wickwheat. Their secret is their true Power. For, the return of the Nerevarine Prophecy will bring them into the light and their true identities shall be known. Their words should be taken with a grain of skooma.

Divayth Fyr



Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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Iced
(Layman)
09/19/02 04:32 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

?

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YMMOT
(Diviner)
09/19/02 05:50 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Iced] 

this is cool! a new forum

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guns don't kill people, postal workers do

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deconite
(Acolyte)
09/19/02 06:16 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: YMMOT] 

You have all seriously misinterpreted what I have said. I was talking about the standards of Godhood. You all suddenly take offense at what I say. I implied nothing. I don't see how something could be taken in such a different way than that which I intended.

Skooma Addict

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Jonus Bloodstorm
(Curate)
09/19/02 06:35 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: YMMOT] 

Yes a new forum..but it doesn't replace the old General Discussion. If the new novices didn't spam so much (and other higher end people) with offensive content we would still have the forum going.

I don't think we are insulting you but the Godhood thing. To play as a god in Morrowind would be sort of like being a Vampire, you would get a lot more powers and able to smite an NPC that got out of hand. Those with the PC version of Morrowind, in a way, can play God already with the TEC kit.

The answer to section 27, subset roman numerical III, part c is........4?
Member number 2 of PLIF clut. www.plif.com
A proud member of the cheese cult. Member number 12.

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Eumerin
(Novice)
09/19/02 08:27 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Jonus Bloodstorm] 

Just to list what we do know about the critical portion of time involving the Dwemer, the Tribunal, and Red Mountain...

1.) Dagoth Ur reports that the Dwemer are up to something sacriligious involving Lorkhan's Heart.
2.) Nerevar consults with Azria and learns that this is true.
3.) The king of the Dwemer is either ignorant of Kagrenec's intent, or intentionally attempts to mislead Nerevar, and denies that the Dwemer are doing what Nerevar accuses them of.
4.) War erupts. Nerevar personally kills the leader of the Dwemer. Kagrenec uses his tools on the Heart, and all but one of the Dwemer are removed from Tamriel. This apparently catches most of the Dwemer off guard, as there is evidence that they were engaged in their daily activities when it occurred. Why one Dwemer is left behind is unknown.
5.) Dagoth Ur retrieves the tools, and tells Nerevar to destroy them. Nerevar tells Dagoth Ur to safeguard the tools while Nerevar consults with his advisors - Vivic, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil.
6.) Nerevar's advisors swear that they will never use the tools, and they return with Nerevar to retrieve them from Dagoth Ur. Dagoth Ur rebels and attempts to take the tools for his own.
7.) The tools are taken from Dagoth Ur. Nerevar disappears from the narrative at this point, although whether he dies of his wounds from the fight with the Dwemer or is assassinated by his advisors is unknown.
8.) Sotha Sil secretly learns how to use the tools. He approaches Vivec and Almalexia and suggests that they use the tools to become gods and rule Morrowind with a fair and just hand. Vivec and Almalexia agree with this plan.
9.) The trio journey to the Heart and use the tools on the heart. Each of them gains a degree of divine power. Azura appears before them and tells them that because they have foresworn themselves, they and all of their people are cursed. The trio leave and establish the Tribunal cult.

On the curse issue - Given the importance of Azura in Morrowind life prior to the Tribunal, and also given the prior involvement of Azura in the affair with Kagrenec, I would not be surprised if Nerevar's advisors swore by Azura that they would obey Nerevar's injunction not to use the tools. Thus, when they foreswore themselves, it was up to Azura to devise a fitting punishment for their transgression.
Just speculation, however.

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/19/02 08:37 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Eumerin] 

Hmmmm, this has me thinking. What if Vivec, Sotha Sil and Almalexia wanted to use the power of the Heart all along?

That may be why, according to the Secret Songs of King Wulfhearth, the Chimer were taking their time to join the Dwemer against the Nords. It may also explain why Dagoth-Ur went to the Nords as a General. This way, both the Nords and Chimer could wipe out the Dwemer, the Three could get access to the Heart. After becoming Gods, they could then easily drive the Nords out, if they needed to.

Of course, the plan went wrong when the Dwemer vanished, and Dagoth-Ur became corrupted.

It that a possibility?

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
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B
(Curate)
09/19/02 09:12 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Striker] 

In reply to:

Striker:
Is that a possiblity?



I certainly think so. Even if the Tribunal didn't know exactly what Kagrenac was up to, they had a good idea, and they certainly were worried about the Dwemer.

I cannot say if the Tribunal's intentions were truly benevolent. I don't think it matters, certainly not to the Dwemer. The Tribunal wanted the Tools and the Heart; Neverar succeeded in getting it for them and then was killed.

Now, the rumor is that Lord Neverar is back. Sotha Sil and Almalexia may not be too pleased.

If Fyr is right, and "...the return of the Nerevarine Prophecy will bring them into the light and their true identities shall be known," then Sotha Sil and Almalexia probably aren't planning a "Welcome Home Party".

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Pickup a copy of The Modern Adventurer

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Grandor
(Acolyte)
09/19/02 09:58 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: B] 

I CALL FOR A NEW BOARD

"ELDERSCROLLS THEROETICAL LORE AND HYPOTHETICAL BOARD"


"It is up to you, Councilor" ~ Fury 3
"Get back here you taffer!" ~ Thief 2
"Your mine you n'wah!" ~ Morrowind
"I'm just an old man with a bad skooma problem." ~ Cacius Cosades.

1st member of the "Mr. Mu Shu" club.

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/19/02 10:08 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Grandor] 

There is already: The Elder Scrolls board.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
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The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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CaptainCanMan
(Novice)
09/19/02 10:15 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: B] 

I hate book discussions.

But I love mysteries.

kudos to you, Kyosho. I'm curious about people interested in things wholly different from me.

I do like creative writing, however.

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Xanathar
(Acolyte)
09/19/02 10:24 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Michael, is that you?

~Xan
Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/19/02 11:39 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Xanathar] 

No, Fyr isn't Michael. He's someone who's currently employed by Bethesda

Raptormeat

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Xanathar
(Acolyte)
09/19/02 11:44 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Raptormeat] 

Hmm, I think you're right. The writing style is different. I just remember he used this Fyr char for posting long time ago, not sure though...

~Xan
Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/19/02 11:58 PM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Xanathar] 

Get The Modern Adventurer Issue 3 to see who Divayth Fyr is

Michael Kirkbride could be Sotha Sil and/or Reubin Halfmoon, but I can never tell

-Striker


Helper: Destination Morrowind
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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/20/02 12:39 AM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Striker] 

Reubin Halfmoon is a fan. You can find out who at Aldrien's Chalice!

Striker- the nice thing about being so connected is that we can constantly plug our stuff for good reason!

Not sure who Sotha Sil is. Might be Michael or another dev. Writing style is a smidge to good to be a fan, but you never know, right?

Raptormeat

edit: Oops, no you can't see who Halfmoon is, it doesn't list the author. Well, you'll just have to sweat it out, haha.

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/20/02 01:36 AM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Raptormeat] 

Well, I always try to pimp The Modern Adventurer, relevant or not

And like I said - I usually can't tell who's who

-Striker

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Xanathar
(Acolyte)
09/20/02 02:55 AM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Striker] 

GT?

~Xan
Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/20/02 04:22 AM
Re: Insight and ***POSSIBLE SPOILER***! BEWARE! [re: Xanathar] 

*Nod*

-Striker

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B
(Curate)
09/20/02 06:49 AM
Way Off the Original Topic [re: Raptormeat] 

As far as Reubin Halfmoon is concerned, if you investigate Aldrien's Chalice and The Tavern Forum, the terms Mystic Knight and Gyrog Isle give it away.

Raptormeat, it's always good to provide information to the masses by plugging your/our stuff. Speaking of which, I wonder if Divayth read his interview in MAv3...
~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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Edited by B (09/20/02 06:52 AM)

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/20/02 07:25 AM
Re: Way Off the Original Topic [re: B] 

Of course he did, he has a copy on the shelf in his study!


---//Forum Scholars guild\\---

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Nazz
(Curate)
09/20/02 07:40 AM
Re: Way Off the Original Topic [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

Yes who could this Halfmoon guy be...

-----------------
Nazz the Curate
Yes, It hurts
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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B
(Curate)
09/20/02 12:02 PM
The Psijic Endeavor [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Divayth Fyr, we have talked with you on many occasions about the Endeavor. You have shared only but a small bit of your knowledge. I would like to revisit one particular passage:

In reply to:

"Bump indeed! My studies and research has had me so preoccupied recently that I have been careless about these discussions. The Psijic Endeavor. Why, were I not a Psijic myself, I may have had the time to discuss this subject more promptly.

Man becoming Godly? Perhaps a mere shadow of a God is more appropriate? And to "surpass" a God, well, now we are speaking of a grand gift. One really must be thoughtful of the "Gods" before one can even imagine gaining such a high power/command. Who and what are the Gods? Are they true beings of power? Are they merely Man with incredible ability? Are they figments of our frightened imaginations; something that comforts us in our time of loss and fright? IF, indeed, these "Gods" are beings that scripture and ink bring us to believe, then any Man could fathom the idea of being One.

This brings up many other interesting revelations. The dwemer apparently had the Gods on the virge of fear with their new and amazing power (thus, the term, "technology" could be used). Did the dwemer seek out such Godly power and attempt to achieve a sort of Nirvana? Not much different than the Psijic Endeavor one would imagine, BUT, were the dwemer Psijics, or of the sort? Did they get close enough to frighten even the Gods, and find a heavy punishment awaiting? The Heart of Lorkhan was, by Legend, cast into Vvardenfell, creating Red Mountain. The dwemer were native to this region, and had they uncovered this Heart, it seems likely that they would have the ability to gain something from it. Why else would Lorkhan and Dagoth Ur storm the Mountain? Surely, Lorkhan would dearly love to retrieve his Heart, but Dagoth Ur was also intent on the unknown power of the Heart. The dwemer were merely an obstacle, no? Expendable. Dagoth Ur had no love for the dwemer. Surely, the Endeavor is an idea to all mortals, but is is possible? One is led to believe that, had the dwemer or Dagoth Ur succeeded in controlling this Heart, would it perhaps be The Key to opening the door? The Heart of a "God" in possession of a mortal. The idea is very exciting yet horrifying.

As a Psijic of the New Ways, the dwemer appear to have been most successful in the Endeavor than any mortal. Their Endeavor is not the shared Endeavor of the Old Way. The New Way, so I speak with no REAL title, is the Way in which I have devoted my research to. I find this New Way to be most delightful a study. The dwemer have taught me more about the "ideals" of the Endeavor than any Psijic could have in 1,000 years. So many questions, so little time. Finding answers appears to be the primary purpose of mortal existence."

Divayth Fyr the Psijic



It appears that you and Sotha Sil were/are following a similar path. We know that you are familar with the Old Ways of the Psijics. We also know that Sotha Sil spent time on the Isle of Arteaum. Was Sotha Sil a Psijic? I do not know. At the very least, he is familiar with the Endeavor as the Order envisions it.

You both decided to study the Dwemer methods of using Lorkhan's Heart to achieve ascension into godhood or at least in becoming men/mer with incredible abilities. Sotha Sil has succeeded in doing this and taken Vivec and Almalexia with him. If anyone doubted the possiblity before, it now appears that it can be done.

What is the ultimate goal of your research? I mean no disrespect when I imply that you, too, might want to follow in the Tribunal's footsteps and become a Mer with incredible abilities. Are you looking to advance your knowledge for the sake of benefiting others, or are you looking to acquire enough power to remove the Tribunal?

~B

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Nazz
(Curate)
09/20/02 02:32 PM
Re: The Psijic Endeavor [re: B] 

You know what would be funny?

If Divayth was Sotha Sil in disguise.

-----------------
Nazz the Curate
Yes, It hurts
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/20/02 02:43 PM
Re: The Psijic Endeavor [re: B] 

Ah, B, my good friend, you overestimate my intentions. I am but a student. A student of the mysteries that engulf the land entire. It is not my way to tackle obstacles. It is my way to solve them. One may know how to climb a mountain, yet one may never climb it. I do not seek the Power of the Heart. I yearn to understand it. Just as the Dwemer may have. We do not know for sure that they wished to weild such power. Perhaps they simply wished to understand it's uses. Not necessarily use them. One can only speculate.

I had the opportunity of gaining audience with Sotha Sil some time ago. Indeed, it was long ago. He has since then gone into complete seclusion. He had little to say but would listen with an ever alert sense. I tried to persuade him into working with me on some theories involving the fluxuation of power that the Dwemer seemed to have mastered in their steam driven machina. Although he appeared quite interested, he was pressed for another duty. One which he did not, and would not mention. I bid him farewell and took my leave. He was nil seen after that meeting. I do agree, that Sotha Sil shares an interest as I do, but we are very much different. As I wish to understand, he wishes to utilise. He is the farthest thing from Psijic. I believe Sotha Sil cared not for Psijic Ways. There is order in the Ways, and Sotha Sil tends to follow only HIS order.

In the past, it would appear that the Tribunal have lost much communication with one another. With the reversing of Sotha Sil's Clockwork and his silence and seclusion, Vivec straining all power to hold aloft the mighty Blight, and Mournhold on the horizon of becoming a major Capital, the Man-Gods have their hands full. And with the Nerevarine Prophecy knocking on their doors, I would imagine there is nil cheer, but fear, in their hearts. What does the Prophecy have in store for them.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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B
(Curate)
09/21/02 09:30 AM
Re: The Psijic Endeavor [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Why, Fyr, there may still be a little Psijic still left in you

Written words are often misunderstood when read; I am glad that you did not take my questions as accusations of megalomania. To have great power and use it is one thing: To have great power and keep it sheathed is quite another.

I, too, seek to learn and understand that which is hidden from the eyes of the masses. As you said, "One may know how to climb a mountain, yet one may never climb it." These words ring true, however, for some, it is better not to show them the mountain at all, for they will only be filled with the overwhelming desire to reach its zenith.

Therefore, not all knowledge is meant to be shared; some is best kept hidden from tempted eyes. I certainly am not applying for the job of regulating this knowledge. To be the one who decides who will receive such information is a monumental burden and is a position that one could easily abuse. No, I would not wish that responsibility on anyone.

Unfortunately, some possess such knowledge already. The Tribunal has demonstrated its application. Are they truly benevolent, or do they have some ulterior motive?

As the Nerevine Prophecy unfolds, we will find out.

~B


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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
09/24/02 02:16 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

And what of the Ashlander account recorded in "Nerevar at Red Mountain"? Has that been discarded as false? Has Vivec's account been considered 'truth'? I am nowhere near the caliber of many of you, so I ask humbly for your knowledge on these matters.

I ask because, in that account it claims that the Dwemer had already become immortal through use of the tools, and that it was Dagoth Ur who slew Kagrenac before the use on the Heart.

It is then stated that Dagoth Ur brought the tools to a dying Nerevar, and asked him what to do. At that point, Nerevar summoned Azura again, and it was SHE who showed them how to use to tools to separate the power of the Heart from the Dwemer. It was then that the Dwemer vanished, having been severed from their profane immortality.

Seemingly, Sotha Sil's statement:

In reply to:

You wonder where the Dwemer have gone? Perhaps better to wonder why one remains. Even gods dislike the absolute, for it stinks of something larger than themselves.


would be explained to an extent. Perhaps Azura left one Dwemer, far and away from his peoples, to survive.

Or perhaps Yagram Bagarn was merely spared because he was in the Outer Realms. Perhaps he never gained the immortality of the Dwemer due to his absence, and thus was never removed when the Heart's power was stripped? Whereas if Kagrenac used his tools incorrectly (or correctly, perhaps?), and removed ALL the Dwemer, it would not explain why Yagram Bagarn still existed.

But then, where are the Outer Realms? Oblivion? Still in the mortal plane? That would explain some things. If it's the mortal plane, then an all out disappearance by anything of Dwemer blood wouldn't allow for Yagram's situation. Seemingly the self-exiled Rourken Clan also vanished, and they weren't at Red Mountain at the time, but instead across the continent of Tamriel. Had they gained the immortality?

But it would also explain some of Dagoth's Ur's own ascension into god-hood, if he already knew how to use the tools by Azura's instruction. Is there an accurate account on HOW Dagoth Ur ascended? Or is it all just assumed?

Perhaps Nerevar 'betrayed' Dagoth Ur, friend and fellow, because Dagoth had already played with the tools and gained power. And perhaps it was only the power of the four (Nerevar, Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec) that wounded Dagoth Ur (a single being), and sent him into hiding. And perhaps it was Dagoth's own semi-immortality that saved him from those same wounds.

That account has some inaccuracies, however. It claims that the soon to be 'Tribunal' killed Nerevar through tainted summoning rites before seizing the tools from Dagoth Ur, and that Azura arrived anyway, and cursed the pre-Tribunal then and there for their treachery to Nerevar. Yet Dagoth Ur claims that it was you who attacked him, that you betrayed him, and that they then betrayed you.

Perhaps it's a combination of these two accounts, seeming as Lord Vivec will still wish to portray he and his brethren as goodly beings, holding to their promise for a short time. And perhaps he is just painting Sotha Sil as the new enemy, laying blame on him for the curse, when in truth the three were equal partners in the treachery (the killing of Nerevar).

Is there any other account as to WHEN the Chimer became Dunmer? Was it AT the battle at Red Mountain (or shortly thereafter), or was it years passed, as Vivec claims?

But again, I am a mere student amongst teachers, and I have not fully completed my lessons. I humbly ask your grace in your responses to my inquiries.


-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/24/02 03:11 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

Very interesting theories indeed, Raptor. Quite a bit of insight for a young up-and-coming scholar. Surely, the word "betrayal" rings out far and wide in this Tribunal circle. It is my belief, that there is a conspiracy that is still hidden in the depths of the Tribunal knowlege. Azura surely knows of it. Nerevar would too. I cannot say for sure if Nerevar betrayed Dagoth Ur, but we know that Dagoth is one that cannot be trusted, by writings. The Dissident Priests believe tell that Dagoth had a plan of his own.

The Raised King Wulfarth, the Nords, and the Orcs all played parts in this enormous plot. With all these players in their prospective positions, none may know of the Dwemer disappearance though. To know the answer to this mystery, one must understand the Powers that the heart held, Kagrenac's Tools, and Kagrenac's Plans. With an understanding of these issues, one may be able to unlock the demise of the Dwemer. Even speaking with Yagrum, he cannot be sure of what exactly happened and what the plans for the tools were. As of where my research currently stands, the only excuse for Yagrum's existence is the fact that he contracted Corprus, possibly rendering him immune to the disappearance. This, however, has a major loophole. Corprus and the Blight did not appear until AFTER the disappearance of the Dwemer. Is it possible that Corprus existed before? There is no record of it in all of Tamrielic history prior to the event. Much more is still hidden that we have yet to see, I am afraid. The Dwemer may still play a part in Tamrielic history I imagine. I do not think we have seen the end of them yet. Are they buying time in an out of reach location? It would appear that they left behind Centurions and Sentrys to keep guard of their strongholds. Did the Dwemer REALLY lose at Red Mountain? Perhaps that is what they wish us to think.

What is true?

What is false?

Who is right?

Who is wrong?

Surely, all of our words are false, and we are all wrong? The Tribunal would make it so.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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Nicolas
(Acolyte)
09/24/02 07:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

Maybe the Dwemer were so boring that Azura turned them into Cliff Racers , cursed to bother and annoy player to the point 0insanity.

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Nicolas
(Acolyte)
09/24/02 07:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

Maybe the Dwemer were so boring that Azura turned them into Cliff Racers , cursed to bother and annoy player to the point of insanity.

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/24/02 11:25 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

The Dwemer vanishing because of their link being severed from the Heart does not sit right in my mind. If this is indeed the case, wouldn't the Tribunal fall to dust when their link is broken? Of course, there could be two ways to break this link, one which is safe, and one which is destructive.

As for which version of the Battle at Red Mountain is true, I would have to say that neither are fully truthful. The Dissident Priests paints the Tribunal as False Gods. Vivec's account paints the Tribunal as Holy and Righteous. Both points of view are too extreme, which taints the truth.

Perhaps somewhere in the middle is more accurate. I suggest it would be much more beneficial if there was a third point of reference. The Five Songs (and Secret Songs) of King Wulfhearth are too innacurate and displaced about the Battle for this to be used.

I suggest a trip to the City of Almalexia and seek an audience with the Tribunal member of the same name. Perhaps speaking with her will reveal that which Vivec wrapped in an enigma and half truths. Perhaps in a month or so?

-Striker

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Hungry DonnerModerator
(Master)
09/24/02 11:46 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

In reply to:

The Dwemer vanishing because of their link being severed from the Heart does not sit right in my mind. If this is indeed the case, wouldn't the Tribunal fall to dust when their link is broken?




That's a good point, and since the Tribunal seems to have a much stronger link to the heart than the Dwemer (as individuals) ever did, it would seem rational that that Tribunal would be even more affected by having this link severed. This does not seem to be true.

An alternative explanation however, is that the Tribunal absorbed enough of the heart's power to sustain themselves when the link was broken.

------------------

Calligraphy is hidden in the teachings of the
master, and its betterment lies in ample and
continuous practice.
� Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib

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Xanathar
(Acolyte)
09/25/02 10:05 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Cool Striker! This is exactly the question I have in mind.... Hopefully in Tribunal we'll get the answer...or I dunno... :/

~Xan
Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
09/25/02 11:35 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

If you do not like my support of the Ashlander account, I understand. But please allow me to ponder over a few other aspects.

How did Dagoth Ur discover the truth about the Heart? How did he know the Dwemer were using it profanely? If the Dwemer King Dumac did not know, how would Dagoth Ur?

Also, the songs of King Wulfharth seem to hint that the 'Tribunal' wished the peace between Dwemer and Chimer to end, that "Nerevar's peace with the Dwemer would be the ruin of the Velothi way." Did they seek to sabotage the peace by planting the seeds of mistrust? If this is so, then they DID betray their Lord Nerevar, by going against his wishes.

Perhaps Dagoth Ur was chosen by the 'Tribunal' to seek out any Dwemer faults, anything they could use to shatter the peace. Perhaps they then instructed him to inform both the sons of Skyrim and Lord Nerevar upon finding such a fault. Two forces against the Dwemer would surely be more effective than one, correct?

The songs are confusing, however, and not clear on many parts. I can understand why no one wishes to use them as reference. It is like using an abstract painting as a portrait of a figure: intriguing and artistically respectable, but too generalized to be an accurate representation.

But I ask again, HOW did Dagoth discover the Dwemer profanity? Did he falsely make his own peace with them? Was he playing both sides against the middle? One of the secret songs claims that Dagoth returned to Kogoran (assuming Kogoruhn, ancient home of House Dagoth) to summon, amongst other things, "his stolen men of brass." If these are, indeed, Dwemer constructs, how would he have gathered enough to muster into a fighting force? By theft, as the song suggests? Or by false friendship?

Perhaps (and this is pure speculation) Dagoth Ur became 'friends' with Kagrenac himself. Perhaps he learned how to use the tools there, but only partway (for Kagrenac would not want to reveal his full plans, now would he?). And perhaps (and this speculation is straying even father off the path of accepted lore) Dagoth Ur DID slay Kagrenac at the battle of Red Mountain, and perhaps it was Dagoth Ur who destroyed the Dwemer by using the tools on the heart.

Perhaps (more far off speculation, just letting the pathways of my mind take me where they will), the Dwemer weren't 'destroyed' or 'removed' as many think or suggest. Perhaps they were absorbed INTO the Heart. Perhaps this is why the power of the Heart corrupts so, because THAT is the legacy of the Dwemer. Perhaps Dagoth Ur's plan all along was to ascend alone, to become chief of the gods himself. Perhaps he knew that the only way to do this was to rid himself of the Dwemer (who were a threat with their Brass God) and to instead take their place. Perhaps Dagoth Ur was the cause of their disappearance.

And perhaps Nerevar, so shocked, upset, and afraid of such a profanity, coaxed Dagoth Ur to stay behind while he went to 'consult' with his generals. Perhaps Nerevar returned inside Red Mountain with his generals to put down Dagoth Ur for such an act, but perhaps Dagoth Ur had already used the tools to gain some immortal power.

Perhaps the Tribunal then killed Nerevar inside Red Mountain, knowing the Dagoth Ur was just following their instructions (but not realizing how far he had delved). Perhaps THIS is the Tribunal's true betrayal. Then perhaps the Tribunal turned on Dagoth Ur, seeing he had become too powerful, but did not succeed in eliminating him. To this day the Tribunal seems haunted by this possible 'mistake'. Perhaps they created the Devil that is Dagoth Ur, and perhaps they felt that making themselves gods was the only way to fight him. Perhaps this 'Nerevarine' is unknowlingly doing the Tribunal's dirty work, cleaning up the mess they created so long ago.

Or perhaps the Tribunal is truly innocent, and Dagoth Ur slew a weakened Nerevar in battle underneath Red Mountain, while being 'mortally' wounded himself. Perhaps, since Nerevar died inside Red Mountain, when all seemed well (the war with the Dwemer was over, after all, the Chimer were the only ones left standing), the Ashlanders assumed it was Tribunal treachery. Yet, I'm not sure I would trust this speculation.

Ah, but perhaps my thoughts run too wild. I am prone to that affliction sometimes.

Then again, what if there is a sliver of truth to some of the above? The Dwemer are gone, correct? No trace, no bones, no hint of any other Dwemer anywhere else other than in Fyr's own Corprusarium. And they have not been seen since Red Mountain, correct? It is assumed that the Dwemer were seeking to transcend the mortal plane, and they had a means to do it. They were building a false god, they would use the Heart to power this false god. They would BECOME this false god.

Perhaps, be it purpose of Dagoth Ur or Kagrenac, the Dwemer WERE absorbed into the Heart. Perhaps that was part of the plan. Become one with the Heart, one with the center of their own god, one with the center of the new chief of gods.

Was there any record of Heart-caused madness prior to the Battle at Red Mountain? Did any Dwemer go mad from tapping the Heart too deeply?

Perhaps it is the Dwemer 'taint' that causes this madness. Perhaps it is this Dwemer taint that whispers to Dagoth Ur to build Akulakhan. Perhaps that is their influence, the final step to their godhood. They are a divine essence now, all they need is a vessel. Anumidium or Akulakhan, it does not matter which.

Perhaps they also control Lord Sotha Sil. Influencing his already tinkerous ways into something more like them. Perhaps he is succumbing to their taint?

If this is the case, then what happens when the tools are used on the Heart again? Where does the Heart go? And what happens to the Dwemer then?

Alas, this is all radical speculation. Please be kind in your dissection of my uneducated thoughts.


-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/25/02 11:47 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

My dear lad, Striker.... you appear to write as though I take all truth from scriptures and words. Alas, that is quite the contrary. Allow me to build on what I was attempting to say.

There is no solid proof that the Dwemer ever even HAD a "link" to the Heart. All we know is, they had the Heart in their possession and somehow, upon striking the Heart with the tools, they disappeared. I can so no more of this considering it is all that is known. As for the Tribunal, considering the Heart is their Power source, who knows just how their Powers would react to a severed link. Would they lose them? The only sure fire way of knowing would be in attempting such a feat.

My love for the Tribunal is no more than for a stranger passing on the road. It is quite passive, entering with little trust until proven. The Dissident Priests are a shady lot, yet they are true to the Ashlander belief, and stern believers in Nerevar. Now you, as an individual, neither of the Priests nor the Tribunal, must ask yourself, are the three "False Gods". In the context that the Dissident Priests paint, possibly so. In "MY" context, they are. Had they ascended by another means, suitable to comfort the Gods, I do believe they would be True enough Gods. However, they are no REAL Gods. What IS a REAL God?Surely one would believe Azura a REAL God [Goddess] if one were inclined to believe in her. Without the ramblings of an old Dunmer who must get back to his studies sometime today, I personally consider them "Powerful Dunmer". No more, no less. Mind you, these are MY words. They are real enough to bleed and they walk with fellow Dunmer. In the sense of "Gods", they do not fit the description.

Surely you must be mistaken if you think I believe what I read in scriptures and myths. I simply bring up The Five Songs of King Wulfarth for those who hunger for some insight to the Red Mountain situation of past. They are to be taken, my no means, as truth. Just as I, should be not taken for truth. They are quite innacurate, simpy because there is no proof. They certainly contain many holes which only lead to more puzzlement, and that is where the reading gets interesting. So, certainly, the writing can be used, simply because, that is all we have, and to draw questions from that is the only way to put the true puzzle together. As many of my fellow scholars know, I know quite a bit of what happened through my researches and studies. However, I am sworn to my secrecy outside of my council.

A trip to Almelexia would be quite a step towards your researches. I have done so on many occasion. Such a wonderous city and named for the ever beautiful and deadly member of the Tribunal. Her audience will not be so easily accomplished though it would be a step in the right direction. Good luck in your ventures.


Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/25/02 10:34 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Ah, but Master Fyr, I never ment to imply that YOU, of all Mer, only had the writings of opposing factions to draw apon. I would never think of it.

Us apprentice scholars, however, have barely more than this to work with. It is with much chagrin that we must rely on them so heavily.

As for the Dwemer being trapped inside the Heart. I believe that it is indeed possible. Kargrenac was known to have sacrificed many Dwemer in the creation of the Numidium. Indeed, this 'sacrifice' may have been transfering their energy into the Heart. However, having said that, I don't think there is any solid evidence as to if this can occur. (Or what the Heart can do.)

By all means, keep hypothosising. At the very least, it opens up people's minds to other posibilities.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
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The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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Xanathar
(Acolyte)
09/25/02 10:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

In reply to:

Surely you must be mistaken if you think I believe what I read in scriptures and myths. I simply bring up The Five Songs of King Wulfarth for those who hunger for some insight to the Red Mountain situation of past. They are to be taken, my no means, as truth. Just as I, should be not taken for truth. They are quite innacurate, simpy because there is no proof. They certainly contain many holes which only lead to more puzzlement, and that is where the reading gets interesting. So, certainly, the writing can be used, simply because, that is all we have, and to draw questions from that is the only way to put the true puzzle together. As many of my fellow scholars know, I know quite a bit of what happened through my researches and studies. However, I am sworn to my secrecy outside of my council.




A very good point, Divayth.

~Xan
Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Xanathar
(Acolyte)
09/25/02 10:50 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Another silly theory by me...

Perhaps, the Kagrenac's tools are not yet perfect at the time of the Battle of the Red Mountain, and perhaps these need a touch of great magi like Sotha Sil (or Dagoth Ur?) to finish the enchantment.

When Kagrenac forced to use the tools, he destroyed the Dwemer race entirely. This due to the unfinished tools. Well, if the tools had already perfect why he did not use it againt the Dunmer in the war?

Later when Sotha Sil got those tools, he learnt how to use them and he perhaps finish the enchantment. Then the link to the heart can be safely established (and later removed).

Well...?

~Xan
Librarian at The Imperial Library

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Reubin Halfmoon
(Layman)
09/25/02 11:51 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Master Fyr, this strays slightly from the current discussion but it interests me non the less, do you know the circumstances that surrounded Tiber Septim coming to control the Brass God? It has always puzzled me how a nemer like him could come into possession of the Dwemers most powerful yet most profane creation.

I have heard the floating rumors that Vivec presented the Brass God to Septim yet I have heard no real proof of this theory. I hope you of all mer can shed some light on the subject.

I AM Indoril Halfmoon

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B
(Curate)
09/26/02 06:56 AM
Another Silly Thought [re: Striker] 

Striker, since you asked us to voice any of our thoughts and theories, I will do so.

But before I do, I must preface it by saying that my forthcoming words are merely just a thought that seems to run in the back of my mind. This thought peeks through the darkness from time to time in an attempt to keep my research from drifting too far down one particular road. Sometimes it is best to approach situations from many different angles, no matter how unlikely they may seem.

Many of us assume--myself included--that the Dwemer made some tragic mistake when the tools were used on the Heart. Certainly, this seems to be logical. For when the tools were used, all of the Dwemer vanished, save one. It appears that they were killed, punished, or even imprisoned. It seems plausible to believe that a resourceful and advanced race like the Dwemer made a fatal mistake, and that one miscalculation cost them their lives.

However, what if the results that day were exactly what Kagrenac wanted? Maybe the Dwemer have followed in the footsteps of an ancient proverb, "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."

You may ask if I truly believe that this is the case. In response, I must confess that I do not know. At the moment, it is just as valid as any other thought. Therefore, I will tuck it away in the back of my mind and keep it as a possibility.

My research continues�

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/26/02 07:40 AM
Re: Another Silly Thought [re: B] 

Intuition tells me that you are on the right track (I amde a similar point somwhere above), but there is no proof to be had in the matter.

I still think its a central point to understand the nature of the heart, which after all is the center of the whole matter. Here are some fact as I remember them...

- Its Lorkhans heart, yet I think there are writings that suggest that Lorkhan is by no means dead - I dont have a reference right now. The loss of the heart is the punishment of the other gods for "being tricked into creating the mortal plane" The heart gets cast from Adamantium tower (Direnni Tower) and strikes what today is Vvardenfell, creating red mountain. Note: could not even the gods really destroy the heart? Or had they reason not to want to?
- The Dwemer find it in red mountain
- Kagrenac begins to study the heart and develops the "Tools" that somehow manage to channel and use the power of the heart
- When Kagrenac uses the tools on the heart the Dwemer vanish
- Raptormeat made the point that the heart vanishes after being hit with the tools. Azura speaks of "freeing" the heart (and the Tribunal) (in the video cutscene).
- The heart of Lorkhan was intended (or actually used? I dont remember) to power Numidium, The Numidium in turn being the ultimate source of power for Tiber Septim.

Some conclusions from that:
- Despite its power and danger the heart has never been detroyed - not even by the gods. I dont believe the nerevarine destroyed it - it has merely been transfered somewhere else.
- Both Lorkhan and his heart have played a central role in many of the "great events" that shaped the world and history - isnt it likely to continue to be that way?



---//Forum Scholars guild\\---

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Nicolas
(Acolyte)
09/26/02 08:39 AM
Re: Another Silly Thought [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

This is all fine , but I have one question : Who the hell is Lorkhan????
Vivec said that the Dwemer created a new god from a dead god - Lorkhan. How can a god die? And if he's dead , how did he die and why?

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kalniel
(Curate)
09/26/02 09:19 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Permit me, a very novice scholar, to air a few questions.

The dwemer, it seems, had not achieved godhood (or semi-godhood) before their dissappearance. Yet Azura's revelation to the Nerevar indicated they might be put to some profane use. It has already been asked what it was that Kagrenac truly intented for his tools but may I postulate what may NOT have been his intentions:

Godhood was surely not his intention, for we know the tools were able to perform this function already yet it hadn't happened. It would seem strange if the creator of the tools had not already known of this function when two others diserned this with no knowledge of the tool's creation.

Also why was Dumac not kept informed of Kagrenac's intentions? (I feel in my heart he was truthful with Nerevar, such events follow dramatic inclinations). I can only think it was either to be a great gift when fully realised, or something to be forbidden.

So the question remains, what is the profane use Kagrenac intended? Perhaps to reunite the Heart with it's owner and as such draw parallels with the fate of the UnderKing. Thus the tools would indeed be crafted for a special kind of transportation, which upon seeing the situation he found himself in, Kagrenac decided to reverse, possibly transporting the Dwemer to some Godly place.

It may be possible that the connection these tools would make, to enable the effect, could also be abused to attain some form of Godly power.

Kalniel

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kalniel
(Curate)
09/26/02 09:31 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: kalniel] 

Or maybe Kagrnac just wanted to make a second anumidium...

Which he did and was about to complete when Nerevar got involved...

Edited by kalniel (09/26/02 09:33 AM)

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/26/02 12:11 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: kalniel] 

I shall attempt to follow suit with as many questions as I can in my pressing time. For, I am due for a great feast with the council in short due time.

All very good assumptions and theories from this gathering. Quite intuitive. But, if you will allow me to add a small trinket of knowlege that has been completely overlooked, then I shall. If you have heard recently, the reincarnate, Lord Nerevar, did indeed confront the Heart, and it's loyal servant, Dagoth Ur. Nerevar had these great tools of Kagrenac, did he not? Think now, did he use just any ONE tool? Was there a particular way he had to use them? Think about these and I shall check with this gathering after my council feast.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
09/26/02 12:28 PM
The Dwemer aren't dead. [re: Raptor1313666] 

Of that I'm almost positive. I don't think that using the Heart would have completely killed all Dwemer (except Yaggy). As for Azura... perhaps she took credit for something even she didn't understand- what happened when the Heart was struck. Perhaps the final tone, which the Nerevarine is not to learn, didn't so much turn the user into a god like Vivec or Azura, but rather transcended them, caused them to fundamentally resonate at a different pitch of everyone else. Maybe all Dwemer are in Oblivion, perhaps striking the Heart produced a Dwemer pocket world- gods of their own cities- but I don't (at least, sincerely hope not) that the Dwemer are simply dead.

And I'll be skooma to septims that Sotha Sil knows what really happened, or at least knows more than Vivec or Dagoth Ur.

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
09/26/02 12:34 PM
My pet theory: Sotha White and the Seven Dwarves [re: WNightBlade] 

Okay, here's my theory. When the Heart was struck and the Dwemer disappeared, that was Karegnac's plan all along. Whether they went into hiding or into the future or whatever, Karegnac knew the Dwemer would "disappear" when they "became gods." Then after the Battle of Red Mountain, when the Tribunal become their own gods, Sotha Sil investigates what exactly happened. He discovers what really happened to the Dwemer, and in return for keeping their secret (they're in hiding somewhere), the Dwemer endow Sotha Sil with knowledge and understanding of the Dwemer race and technology. And so the Clockwork City was born, to symbolize the pact between Sotha Sil and the transcendant Dwemer. What do you think?

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Nazz
(Curate)
09/26/02 01:31 PM
Re: Another Silly Thought [re: Nicolas] 

In reply to:

I have one question : Who the hell is Lorkhan????




Lorkhan is an Aedra. He is the god most chiefly responsible for the mortal world. In most myths he is seen as the champion of humans and an enemy of mer. The exception to this is the Dunmer.

-----------------
Nazz the Curate
Yes, It hurts
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/26/02 05:24 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Allow me to reiterarate what i was building on earlier.

The tools that the "reincarnate" of Nerevar used on the Heart (a correction in identity of this lone hero) were as follows....

Wraithgurd
Keening
Sunder

The very same tools that Kagrenac built to tap into the Hearts power, and the same tools the Tribunal used to gain their "Power".

These tools may have to be used in some sort of combination. I have have heard tell of the combination that the "reincarnate" used, but have yet to speak with this "Hortator" that defeated Dagoth Ur. Perhaps the combination was NOT known by Kagrenac upon weilding his tools upon the Heart, there was some reprecussion that he did not expect, thus, causing the disappearance. Sotha Sil may have learned of the enchantments on the tools and deciphered the combination, allowing the Tribunal to correctly use the tools. Is it possible that Kagrenac did NOT know this combination that the Tribunal and the "reincarnate" used? Maybe there was another combination that Kagrenac used that Sotha Sil did not find. Speculation is all. I plan to meet with this "Hortator" and question him of his use of the tools. This may aid me in my understanding of the tools and perhaps, gain some more clues as to the Dwemer disappearance. If any of my fellow scholors here has any information on the use or combination of these tools, feel free to share your knowlege. It may give us some deeper insight.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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B
(Curate)
09/26/02 07:08 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

I return home after a long day and it appears that a lot of discussion has taken place.

Divayth, if these rumors are in fact true, I, too, would like to gain an audience with this "Nerevar." One cannot be too sure these days, though. A day doesn't go by when a man or mer surfaces with claims of being the next "True" Nerevar. If this Hortator was successful in severing the link between the Heart and Dagoth Ur, then there is new and vital information for our research.

I find this all to be extremely fascinating!

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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Dagoth_Ur
(Adept)
09/26/02 07:26 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Dagoth_Ur still lives....

Dagoth_Ur, the immortal Adept

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/26/02 08:18 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

I believe it was Sunder once, then Keening until the Heart 'vanishes'.

You can correct me if I'm wrong.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
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B
(Curate)
09/26/02 09:45 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Interesting find, Striker! I must say that I have been researching many of our questions.

On the matter of Kragenac and his knowledge of the Tools� potential, I found two different accounts with similar implications.

In Nerevar at Red Mountain, it states that �House Dagoth had discovered the source of the profane and secret power of the Dwemer: the legendary Heart of Lorkhan, which Dumac's people had used to make themselves immortal and beyond the measure of the gods.�

Now, according to the The Battle of Red Mountain, and the Rise and Fall of the Tribunal, �But when Dagoth Ur, Lord of House Dagoth, and trusted as a friend by both Nerevar and the Dwemer, brought us proof that High Engineer Kagrenac of the Dwemer had discovered the Heart of Lorkhan, and that he had learned how to tap its powers, and was building a new god, a mockery of Chimer faith and a fearsome weapon, we all urged Nerevar to make war on the Dwarves and to destroy this threat to Chimer beliefs and security.�

In those accounts, the Tribunal Temple and Vivec claim that the Dwemer had figured out how to tap the Heart�s power. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say. It appears that Kagrenac DID know the sequence.

As far as the reason behind the Disappearance of the Dwemer, it should come as no surprise that there are two accounts. The Nerevar at Red Mountain says that, � Nerevar summoned Azura again, and she showed them how to use the tools to separate the power of the Heart from the Dwemer people.

And on the fields, the Tribunal and their armies watched as the Dwemer turned into dust all around them as their stolen immortality was taken away.


And The Battle of Red Mountain, and the Rise and Fall of the Tribunal makes the claim, ��Kagrenac turned his tools upon the Heart, and Nerevar said he saw Kagrenac and all his Dwemer companions at once disappear from the world. In that instant, Dwemer everywhere disappeared without a trace.�

---

Now, I was granted an audience with the Nerevar and was told that, �The normal procedure for establishing connection with the Heart is a three-step process. The wearer of Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the hammer Sunder, causing the Heart to produce a pure tone. Then the wearer of the Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the blade Keening, shattering the pure tone into a prism of tone-shades. These tone-shades are then imprinted upon the substance of the wearer of Wraithguard, giving him an immortal and divine nature."

Unfortunately, the Nerevar goes on to say that, �The Nerevarine [was] not [to] be taught the secret rituals required to perform the third step. Instead, The Nerevarine will strike the Heart with Keening for a second time, causing its tones to diverge into unstable patterns of interference. Further repeated strikes with Keening will further disrupt the tones, with the ultimate result of shattering and dispelling Kagrenac's original enchantments binding the Heart, thereby severing the Heart's links with Dagoth Ur, and with any surviving Heartwights, and with the Tribunal. Destroying Kagrenac's enchantments on the Heart will also stop the corrupt effusion of the Heart's divine power, and end the Blight on Morrowind.�

So, we have an incomplete sequence of Sunder and then Keening. Perhaps the �third step� involves the Wraithguard.

I hope you find this information useful.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Pickup a copy of The Modern Adventurer

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/26/02 10:28 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Good work B. My sources were not as reliable as yours!

In reply to:

"...giving him an immortal and divine nature."




Interesting use of words. They seem to imply that the process doesn't actually make you Divine. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

-Striker


Helper: Destination Morrowind
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The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
09/27/02 01:33 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

In reply to:

Now, I was granted an audience with the Nerevar and was told that, �The normal procedure for establishing connection with the Heart is a three-step process. The wearer of Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the hammer Sunder, causing the Heart to produce a pure tone. Then the wearer of the Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the blade Keening, shattering the pure tone into a prism of tone-shades. These tone-shades are then imprinted upon the substance of the wearer of Wraithguard, giving him an immortal and divine nature."

Unfortunately, the Nerevar goes on to say that, �The Nerevarine [was] not [to] be taught the secret rituals required to perform the third step. Instead, The Nerevarine will strike the Heart with Keening for a second time, causing its tones to diverge into unstable patterns of interference. Further repeated strikes with Keening will further disrupt the tones, with the ultimate result of shattering and dispelling Kagrenac's original enchantments binding the Heart, thereby severing the Heart's links with Dagoth Ur, and with any surviving Heartwights, and with the Tribunal. Destroying Kagrenac's enchantments on the Heart will also stop the corrupt effusion of the Heart's divine power, and end the Blight on Morrowind.�

So, we have an incomplete sequence of Sunder and then Keening. Perhaps the �third step� involves the Wraithguard.




Very very interesting.

If this is the case, then what sequence did Kagrenac use? What possible sequence could he have used to cause the disappearance of most of his kin? I ask this question seriously. There are only so many possible combinations to use three tools such as Sunder, Keening, and Wraithguard. Which ones are 'right', and which ones are 'wrong'?

Can one hit the Heart multiple times with Sunder, thus producing a much stronger tone than normal? Perhaps the tools have their limits. Perhaps Keening cannot 'tune' such a great tone from the Heart, if it is not precise.

Or maybe Kagrenac let the tone shades emit too long before doing what was required with Wraithguard (should that be the true 'third step'), thus making them 'too divine' and causing them to transcend the mortal plane? If so, why were only the Dwemer affected? Why not Nerevar, Dagoth Ur, and whomever else ventured with them into the Heart Chamber?

Were the Dwemer marked, perhaps, by an earlier experiment with immortality? If so, then why Yagrum? Is it simply because he was not around? Did he not gain the immortality from the Heart (instead later gaining immortality from Corprus)?

Secondly, how did the Tribunal become divine? Did each of them have to use the tools in succession? Or did Sotha Sil do it once for all three of them and spread the essence of the diviine to his fellows?

I guess one of my questions this time comes down to: how is the power of the Heart 'filtered' to the individuals? How is it that the Dwemer were 'singled out' as an entire race during Red Mountain? And how is it that, instead of all Chimer, only the three of the Tribunal became divine during their use after Red Mountain?

One door opens to reveal but an endless hallway of others. But there may be progress yet. This getting more and more intriguing by the hour . . .

-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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tegger
(Adept)
09/27/02 02:08 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

Re: "Were the Dwemer marked, perhaps, by an earlier experiment with immortality? If so, then why Yagrum? Is it simply because he was not around? Did he not gain the immortality from the Heart (instead later gaining immortality from Corprus)?"

I would think Yagrum gained his brand of "immortality" from Corprus. If he had previously been considered immortal, one would expect him to be already immune to all diseases. As for Dwemer immortality in general, it's still under debate whether they actually achieved it, but if they did, the scenario you mentioned sounds as likely as any I've heard about or thought of.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Once I saw something as funny as... a really funny thing. ~ TSL

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Nazz
(Curate)
09/27/02 08:55 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

What if Nerevar lied to Vivec about what happened in the heart chamber. Vivec was not there when the Dwemer vanished so the only thing he can go on is what Nerevar told him happened when he returned to counsel with them. Perhaps Azura did appear and show Nerevar the secrets of the tools to destroy the Dwemer, but when he returned to the three he told them that Kagrenac had used them incorrectly and caused his people to vanish. Maybe Nerevar knew that the three, or at least Sotha Sil, would want to use the tools in the same profane manner that the Dwemer would have. So he lied to them in an attempt to keep his knowledge secret.

This kinda goes along with this but what if the three knew he knew how to use the tools and since he wouldn't tell them how to use the tools they killed him. Not really sure about the last part but maybe Nerevar didn't trust the tribunal as much as it originaly seemed.

-----------------
Nazz the Curate
Yes, It hurts
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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kalniel
(Curate)
09/27/02 09:39 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

Was not wraithguard required merely to hold the other tools?

Also I wonder if there are any accounts of Lord Nerevar striking the heart in a different way than perscibed? I have already heard one myth saying he actually struck the heart several times with Sunder, being unsure in his own ability to wield a blunt weapon.

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kalniel
(Curate)
09/27/02 10:09 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: kalniel] 

Actually, I of course meant the 'reincarnate' Nerevar. Named Nerevine and Hortator. Whether they are indeed the Lord Nerevar returned, reborn or reassumed none can know but the 'reincarnate' themself, and even then they may not be certain!

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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
09/27/02 12:54 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

An Observation from the True Incarnate.

I have gone from asking myself the question "Am I being decieved ?" to telling myself that " I AM being Decieved !!".

Even though Azura Herself has said that the prophacy has been fulfilled I can not consider it as such. Much of what I once was has yet to fully manifest itself, and I feel that for some reason it is being held back or at least delayed. For what reason I can not discern yet. For now I must go along with this deception as much truth can still be distilled from it. Fot reaon's I will keep to myself I say that the Tribunal " Can Not Be Trusted "

The Main Observation is that the blight still continues, the 'divine disease' still continues and the children of the 6th House still walk the land and return again and again from the Oblivion I have sent them to.

I have grown in power far beyond what the Tribunal meant for me, and I think that worries them. I have still much to learn and I grow still in power and knowlege each day. In my heart of hearts I feel that the 'Heart of Lorkhan' still exists in this world affecting it, though to a lesser degree than before. The tools are now in my hands, I will study them and unlock their secrets so I may put an end to this Abomination once and for all. This may take some time, but what is time now to one who is now an Immortal and Ageless. I start my watchful vigulance, even as I start my campaigne to set the land of Morrowind right. The heart must be found again, and it must be destroyed or cast into Oblivion, If I must go with it to guard it from others wishing to use its power for their own designs, so be it, that is my intention be it my fate or curse of doom.


The Hortator, Incarnate, Nerevar reborn, child of the Dragon.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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B
(Curate)
09/28/02 08:37 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Nazz] 

In reply to:

Posted by Nazz:

What if Nerevar lied to Vivec about what happened in the heart chamber. Vivec was not there when the Dwemer vanished so the only thing he can go on is what Nerevar told him happened when he returned to counsel with them. Perhaps Azura did appear and show Nerevar the secrets of the tools to destroy the Dwemer, but when he returned to the three he told them that Kagrenac had used them incorrectly and caused his people to vanish. Maybe Nerevar knew that the three, or at least Sotha Sil, would want to use the tools in the same profane manner that the Dwemer would have. So he lied to them in an attempt to keep his knowledge secret.



Many times, it is extremely difficult to determine truth from lies. Well-written words have a way of playing tricks on our minds.

It is certainly possible that Nerevar lied to Vivec about the events in the Heart Chamber. Truthfully, all the accounts of Red Mountain are laced with biases and/or lies.

It is also possible that the Dwemer had no intention of becoming "gods" for the purpose of conquest. That threat could easily have been made-up to justify the attack on the Dwemer. What better way to rally support than to accuse those elves of preparing for world domination!

~B

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
09/28/02 12:52 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

That's a good point. Might explain why Dumac supposedly didn't have any clue about Numidium...

I once read the opinion that Kagrenac made Numidium for unselfish reasons, in order to help his people, and not ro bring conquest or whatever. That was just an opinion, of course... So who knows....

Raptormeat

------------
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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
09/29/02 10:17 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

IF so............a dwarf city. May we see more dwemer dwelling in the clockwork city. Yes many people ask about the dissapearance of the dwarves, but dont over look the supposive last dwarf. We all know he is in Tel fyr, but does he ever say that he is the last dwarf? Dont think so. Just that he couldnt find any of them. So is it not wrong to think that there could be more dwemer who werent present when they all vanished. I havent the answers to speculate but the "last" dwarf is kept in secret in the corpusarium when no one else knows about it. Some residents of morrowind say it is the biggest mystery of Morrowind, while some of the Dumner simply say their ancestors defeated all of them in battle. I will say no more except that I HOPE there are more answers in Tribunal.

Level: 46 dark elf Rouge
Great House of Hlaalu Father

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Hungry DonnerModerator
(Master)
09/29/02 10:22 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

He does say that he's the last dwarf . . . as far as he can tell.

Also, rumor has it that when the Nerevar questioned Vivec, Vivec said that he could not feel the presence of the Dwemer. If the Tribunal truely have the power of gods, then they should be able to tell if there are Dwemer around still, or not.

It seems that either Yagrum is the last dwemer, any remaining dwemer are concealed from the powers of Vivec, or that Vivec doesn't have the power he says he does. Perhaps though, Sotha Sil, who is at least as powerful as Vivec, is hiding one or more.

------------------

Calligraphy is hidden in the teachings of the
master, and its betterment lies in ample and
continuous practice.
� Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib

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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
09/29/02 10:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Hungry Donner] 

If he does say that hes the last dwarf then i must of not talked about all the topics with him. You are right, yagrum is concealed from vivec and many others dont know about him. AND WHO KNOWS WHAT SOTHA SIL HAS UP HIS SLEEVE.

Level: 46 dark elf Rouge
Great House of Hlaalu Father

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Hungry DonnerModerator
(Master)
09/29/02 10:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

I don't beleive Yagrum himself is concealed, unless Divayth Fyr is much more powerful than I believe.

------------------

Calligraphy is hidden in the teachings of the
master, and its betterment lies in ample and
continuous practice.
� Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib

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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
09/29/02 10:49 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Hungry Donner] 

Yes, i dont mean he was planned to be concealed from the rest of morrowind. It just ended up that way. Besides even if the Tribunal knew about him, would they hunt him even if they realized that he doesnt know what happened to his people.

Level: 46 dark elf Rouge
Great House of Hlaalu Father

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Striker
(Disciple)
09/29/02 11:52 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

It may very well be possible that Yagrum is the last of the Dwemer. I don't think there is any true way of testing his claims.

Now, the Tribunal may not 'sense' his presence for a few reasons:
- They are trying to locate the Dwemer race as a whole. An individual may not be easily detected.
- The Corprus has deformed his body so much that he is technically no longer classed as a Dwemer.
- He is shielded by the Corprus. Since it's source is the Heart of Lorkhan (apparently), and this is source of power that the Tribunal use, it may block him somehow.

Perhaps the truth will be revealed in time...

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
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tegger
(Curate)
09/30/02 12:11 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Am I wrong in remembering Vivec as saying he detected no Dwemer in the outer realms? When he said that, my first thought was, "Well how much of a god are you that you look so far and still overlook at least one living Dwemer in your own back yard?" I took what he said to mean that (a.) he was lying, or (b.) he didn't know about any Dwemer on a pysical plane, or (c.) he wasn't telling all he knew -- any of which added to my lack of trust in his version of the story. I don't remember him saying he couldn't detect any Dwemer anywhere at all. But if I mis-heard what he said, boy is my face red!

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Once I saw something as funny as... a really funny thing. ~ TSL

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/30/02 11:59 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

The Tribunal hads always respected my work and research to the point of tolerance. They do not always agree with my purpose and opinions, but they also realise my contributions. I do not wish to stand about and wave a flag in my honor, but I have been around for some time and have become one of the more "powerful" and "knowlegable" mortals of this plane. I *DO* house a Dwemer and Yagrum is not a trophy. Vivec and the other Tribunal members may or may not know of his existense, this I do not know, but I also do not keep him secret from the Tribunal. If Vivec were to ask, I surely would inform him. I would not release Yagrum to Vivec's hold without a very good reason, of which I am sure the Tribunal could not consider one worthy enough. I hold no enchantments proecting Yagrum from being seen as I am not his protector. Yagrum is a friend and Iam his host. I work closely with him and we research many articles together. For, in Yagrum's prime, he was quite a scholor himself. Corprus has taken quite a lot out of him and controlling the madness has become much of his internal battle. His memory and wisdom have failed him much since his people's disappearance and Corprus. Perhaps, if the Tribunal know this, they realise there is little threat from him. I recognise the Tribunal and offer much advice and play role as advisor on many an occasion, although I remain one of their largest skeptics. It is an aquaintance built on respect more-so than friendship.

Also, do remember, with the coming of the named "Hortator" and reincarnate, the defeat of the Heart has altered the Tribunal. Still powerful, yet, I am quite sure much of their power has left them when the Heart took it's absence. Knowking just what they are capable of at this point is quite beyond my knowlege.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/30/02 12:21 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Indeed, I wonder how the Tribunal will deal with their new situation. After being god-like for millenia it can't be easy for them to feel their powers drain away, be it fast or imperceptibly slow.
Will they really reconsider their treachery and admit defeat?
Wouldnt they rather be turning all their remaining power to find a new source of divine power to sustain them? What could this be? The King of Worms used the heart of Zurin Arctus for this purpose - and I read a tome that seems to imply he is quite active in his new role as god of the necromancers... Are there other hearts of equal or similar potency to be found?

The only ones I can possibly think of that would be in reach of the Tribunal is yours, Divayth, or the Nerevarine's...


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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
09/30/02 12:52 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

I was wondering if there was a reliable account of house Dagoth and their participation at Red Mountain. There are several accounts and the one that stands out is the most commonly accepted one. That the Dwemmer and House Dagoth were in allience at Red Mountain. In several important accounts the '6th House' has no metion at all. This leaves me very suspitious considering that in my previous incarnation as Hortator that Dagoth Ur and his cadre were with ME at the final assault in Red Mountain. I think that House Dagoth was part of the spearhead into red mountain and several of them bore witness to the events there. Something happened and it was terrible enough for the Tribunal to try and demonize House Dagoth and destroy them. The acounts not only contradict each other but some leaning in support of the Tribunal are self-contradicting........ another piece of the puzzle, the official temple accounts trouble me, as well as Vivecs own account, not only in what he said but rather more what he did not say.

If only Azura would step in and reveal to us what really happened. I have kept my oath, I am at the very least owed the truth for that alone. She implies, but the powers can be fickle in their information and quite vague.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
09/30/02 02:56 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

My Heart!? Surely my friend, you flatter me, however, weilding my Heart would merely bring one a wet, blood-laden hand. My existense is quite mortal. My flesh is of the earth. My magics are of the mind. My mind is within the winds whence life leaves my body. Any material form of me will be quite useless when I am "returned". The most I have to offer the Tribunal will come in my living years. This they know, and this they follow by. To slaughter me for power would be quite a senseless act with nothing to gain. I will admit, numerous writs have come down bearing my namesake, and no Tong taking the challenge has ever left my Tower with his skin. Within my Halls, I live by the Law of Fyr. Many would believe that taking claim to my possessions will make them mighty indeed, but that is simply their fear of the mystery that surrounds me. I am quite mortal. Power gained was power earned. But mine, is most assuredly, power of knowlege.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
09/30/02 04:55 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

What then, made the heart of Zurin Arctus different? Is it because of his unspecified "association with magus"?

The god of sorcery, Magnus withdrew from the creation of the world at the last second, though it cost him dearly. What is left of him on the world is felt and controlled by mortals as magic. One story says that, while the idea was thought up by Lorkhan, it was Magnus who created the schematics and diagrams needed to construct the mortal plane. He is sometimes represented by an astrolabe, a telescope, or, more commonly, a staff. Cyrodilic legends say he can inhabit the bodies of powerful magicians and lend them his power. Associated with Zurin Arctus, the Underking.

Of course there is also the account in "the Arcturian Heresy"

Pieces of Numidium trickle in, though. Tiber Septim, always fascinated by the Dwarves, has Zurin Arctus research this grand artifact. In doing so, Arctus stumbles upon some of the stories of the war at Red Mountain. He discovers the reason the Numidium was made and some of it's potential. Most importantly, he learns the Underking's place in the War. But Zurin Arctus was working from incomplete plans. He thinks it is the heart of Lorkhan's body that is needed to power the Numidium.

While Zurin Arctus is raving about his discovery, the prophecy finally becomes clear to Tiber Septim. This Numidium is what he needs to conquer the world. It is his destiny to have it. He contacts the Underking and says he was right all along. They should kill the Tribunal, and they need to get together and make a plan. While the Underking was away he realized the true danger of Dagoth-Ur. Something must to be done. But he needs an army, and his old one is available again. The trap is set.

The Underking arrives and is ambushed by Imperial guards. As he takes them on, Zurin Arctus uses a soulgem on him. With his last breath, the Underking's Heart roars a hole through the Battlemage's chest. In the end, everyone is dead, the Underking has reverted back to ash, and Tiber Septim strolls in to take the soulgem. When the Elder Council arrives, he tells them about the second attempt on his life, this time by his trusted battle mage, Zurin Arctus, who was attempting a coup. He has the dead guards celebrated as heroes, even the one who was blasted to ash... He warns Cyrodiil about the dangers within, but says he has a solution to the dangers without. The Mantella.


Which sais that it is the heart of the undeking (probably King Wulfharth, Ysmir) not Zurins that was used for the mantellum. Whether "the Arturian Heresy" can be trusted has been dabated, however. After all it contains a great gap in the acount of how the "north wind" becomes the "underking"...





---//Forum Scholars guild\\---

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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
09/30/02 05:53 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

OK, i could agree and take your words as truth, but YOU ARENT DIVAYTH FYR. So your word is not official.

Level: 46 dark elf Rouge
Great House of Hlaalu Father

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evelian
(Adept)
09/30/02 06:46 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

I believe he may be a dev, making his words quite trustworthy.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Nazz
(Curate)
09/30/02 07:39 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Yeah Divayth is GT NOONAN aka Wormgod. Maker of dungeons and good plugins.

-----------------
Nazz the Curate
No matter what will come to shine the dream will always be mine.
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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B
(Curate)
09/30/02 09:05 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Nazz] 

No, Divayth Fyr is simply just Divayth Fyr!

Oh, and by the way, Ghan, your question is an excellent one!

In reply to:

What then, made the heart of Zurin Arctus different?



~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Hungry DonnerModerator
(Master)
09/30/02 09:49 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Nazz] 

I had him pegged as Todd, but personally I prefer the illusion

------------------

Calligraphy is hidden in the teachings of the
master, and its betterment lies in ample and
continuous practice.
� Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib

_/ Hungry Donner \_
�\ ICQ: 36149651 /�

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
10/01/02 11:39 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

I am not, Divayth Fyr.

The words of many who I allow court. What exactly defines the "proper" Divayth Fyr?

He is not Divayth Fyr, and Divayth Fyr simply is not he.

"He" is not the man, but he asked you, "Who was he?"

I am, Divayth Fyr.

Had I better relations with the Tong, a lawful writ might be sought out. And do know this.... the words of the "one", Divayth Fyr, are never to be taken as, what you prefer to as, "official". Being but a scholar and student/teacher of lore, to be something of "official" is furthest from truth. Had my words been "official", I would hardly take audience with students, such as yourself. So I ask this of you, the one called bigdog60960, show respect until the respect is spent and absorbed by ignorance. Whence I lose your respect, your accounts shall press my shadow towards the sun until it is no more.

I am, Divayth Fyr. Psijiic of the Old. Scholar of the New.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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evelian
(Adept)
10/01/02 11:44 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Well said. Although having suching poetic writing interrupted by the name "bigdog60960" ALMOST makes it lose its effect. It sounds rather funny.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Star Boi
(Layman)
10/01/02 05:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

Well, I'm not a Morrowind lore buff in any way, but it seems to me that despite the ruins and animunculi, the dwemer were not, in fact, that associated with "clockwork" per say. Look at what they are referred to, the "tones" of dwemer, the "Tonal Architects", how they are using Keening and Sunder to produce certain sounds to generate power. If one takes a look at how they did things, then one sees that they were only 'mechanical' to advance in other, more arcane studies. If a true Dwemer city were to be found, it would not be clockwork at all, but probably a place of sound and reverberations, echos. From what i do know, Sotha Sil developed, or became obsessed, with clockwork things, and his interest in Time and in creating an Anumidium (sp?) type creature were more done obsessively, as opposed to being dwemer inspired. Just something to think about.

"Damn Kyle and his watergun!"

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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
10/01/02 05:39 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Okay, first off I am no student of yours MR. DIVAYTH FYR. Second, i realize you are into your roleplaying, no into would be a understatement. I could care less if you thought you were Divayth Fyr. Third, what i have a problem with is you trying to inform people with information that YOU think might be a response from Divayth fyr. As far as respect goes, I give credit where credit is due. As I will give you some now by saying this, I never denied that you have knowledge, but why not give your opinions as your own words and not try to make it what you think Divayth Fyr would say. So have fun being whoever you want to be. I just wanted to hear peoples opinions on tribunal and the dwemer . Im going to play morrowind.

Level: 46 dark elf Rouge
Great House of Hlaalu Father

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
10/01/02 06:00 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

BigDog-

You obviously haven't read much lore in the Elder Scrolls. As of around 1999, officially all ES lore is SUPPOSSED to come from an "in-game" source. Examples- Jobasha, Hasphat Antabolis, Interview w/ 3 Booksellers on TIL... etc etc. This was decided on by Michael, I believe, along with others. Plausible (sp?), built in deniability

GT, aka Divayth Fyr, is carrying on that tradition.

In reply to:

Third, what i have a problem with is you trying to inform people with information that YOU think might be a response from Divayth fyr




Well, I hate to bring this to your attention, but if the Desv never put words into NPCs mouths, we'd have an awefuly quite game now wouldn't we..... :rolleyes:

Raptormeat

------------
Guildmaster: Forum Scholars Guild
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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
10/01/02 06:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

To your information BigDog - this kind of rolplaying banter has a good and healthy traditon on this board, and many of us are fond of it. I would apreciate, if you would respect that as well.



---//Forum Scholars guild\\---

Lecturer on Morrowind natural history
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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
10/01/02 06:07 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

You think i HATE roleplaying. I love it. Why do you think i play this game.

Level 47 Dark Elf Rouge

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
10/01/02 06:10 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

*exiting Divayth's shoes, for a sec*

Hmmm, bigdog, ease down there slick. First off, as you said, roleplaying. That is the key. Secondly, roleplaying as a character that *I* know better than anyone else (partly because I am one of his creators, and I know how he works in all aspects). How can I be wrong by using him in the way Bethesda created him? Would you prefer I used another TES icon? That can be easily remedied, although I doubt much insight would be brought forth anymore.

Perhaps knowing who Divayth is and how he thinks would be a major help to your argument. I use Divayth in all of his portrayed elements, and then some. He *IS* a mysterious figure and little to none is known about him outside of Bethesda employees (give or take a few others). As for me giving responses in what *I* think he would use.... well, who better to do that than one of the guys who made him who he is? In this case, *MY* words, are his. I hate to ring any bells and wave any flags on the Dwemer/Divayth subject, but I created much of the lore and mystery involving both. Yes, I am a dev. Hope this helps in your understanding.

*puts Divayth's shoes back on*

Good day to you and may you enjoy your travels in Morrowind. Let not my words offend you.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
10/01/02 06:21 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Ok, I asked for the real you I got the real you. I am pleased, you ARE a good roleplayer. (I also understand a few things you said better). There i gave you your respect. Well now I am going to further enjoy Morrowind.

Tom

_________________________

Level 47 Dark Elf Rouge

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B
(Curate)
10/01/02 08:15 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

Well, well, well�

Here is my arrival, and what should I find? A single trail of ignorance was left behind

I am pleased to see that no one lost any appendages or had their hair singed by a fireball. I, for one, am glad to see that sanity has prevailed.

Anyway, back to one of our original thoughts. With the information that we were able to ascertain, was anyone able to determine any new findings as far as the Heart and the combination of the Tools are concerned?

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/01/02 08:30 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

In reply to:


Well, I'm not a Morrowind lore buff in any way, but it seems to me that despite the ruins and animunculi, the dwemer were not, in fact, that associated with "clockwork" per say. Look at what they are referred to, the "tones" of dwemer, the "Tonal Architects", how they are using Keening and Sunder to produce certain sounds to generate power. If one takes a look at how they did things, then one sees that they were only 'mechanical' to advance in other, more arcane studies. If a true Dwemer city were to be found, it would not be clockwork at all, but probably a place of sound and reverberations, echos. From what i do know, Sotha Sil developed, or became obsessed, with clockwork things, and his interest in Time and in creating an Anumidium (sp?) type creature were more done obsessively, as opposed to being dwemer inspired. Just something to think about.




Ah, but Star Boi, that is where you are mistaken. The Dwemer WERE interested in steam/magic driven mechanical constructs. The 'Tones' you refer to relate directly to the Heart of Lorkhan, which Keening and Sunder were built to transfer power from. The Heart of Lorkhan is not a Dwemer construct, but the heart of a God (Aedra).

There were some Dwemer that worked on the tools for the heart, but they were the minority.

Also, the Dwemer built the first Anumidium. And there is no evidence to suggest that Sotha Sil is creating another.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
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Striker
(Disciple)
10/01/02 08:52 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Ah yes, I think I may have found something related to that Mr. B. I was looking through some recent book aquisitions in our Modern Adventruer offices and came across a book called the Egg of Time. Now, I cannot read the Dwemer writings, but there were a couple of pictures that may shed some light on the use of the tools.

The first one is:
http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/img/dwemer-egg3.jpg

And the second (An the one I find most interesting) is:
http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/img/dwemer-egg4.jpg

Now, the second picture leads me to believe that the posibilities are:
Sunder, Keening, Sunder then Keening (Reading down)

or

Sunder twice then Keening twice (Reading across)

Anyone else have thoughts on these pictures?

-Striker

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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
10/01/02 09:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

I had thought of that also, and tried it out....... to no avail.......( What !!you never know until you try :P ) there still has to be something missing that you need for you wanna-B Incarnate's turned gods

The second add-on: "The Heart of Lorkhan" ...... would that not be soooooooo funny ?

I hope we can find out more about the dwemmer and the events at Red Mountain in the Tribunal..................... then we can worry about becomeing gods or not

Yo D' you there ? I know you know more than your telling us



])])]{






1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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B
(Curate)
10/01/02 09:38 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

It is difficult to tell the sequence and/or order of Keening and Sunder.

My initial impression of the two drawings is that in the first one, the "link" is opened or established. And in the second of the two drawings, the "link" is severed.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/01/02 10:25 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Hmm, indeed you are correct. My bad

-Striker

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
10/01/02 11:00 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Hmm, intriguing images, quite so.

My underdeveloped mind interprets them slightly similar to B's own.

The first image: Sunder, then Keening, establishes the Link to the heart.

The second image: multiple uses of either tool, shatters the link and perhaps causes the receiver of the link to go the way of the Dwemer.

So perhaps the third step is one of the mind? One of ritual? Perhaps the tools are used simply once, and then the receiver must go from there?

Wraithguard acts as a buffer, does it not? It was my (uneducated) understanding that Wraithguard protected the wearer from the powers of Sunder and Keening. Did this also protect the wearer from the powers of the Heart? Perhaps the third step is one of ritual, but involves the removal of Wraithguard in order to let the power flow?

Finally, on this similar train of thought, why wasn't Dagoth Ur mortally wounded when he picked up the tools? Does one have to intentionally "wield" them in order for their feedback to wound you? How do the tools interpret mere 'holding' versus actual 'weilding'? Perhaps the enchantments on the tools can interpret intent?

If so, it can be a ritual of intent that completes the flow of power.

**Out of the 'learning student' personal here a sec: It's entirely possible that I'm reading too much into the holding vs. weilding topic. I recognize limitations of game design, and the 'unfairness' of having Sunder and Keening kill you by simply holding them in inventory. However, I wasn't sure if it DID have a bearing. Anyone else care to ponder whether it matters or not?**


-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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Srikandi
(Disciple)
10/01/02 11:09 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Raptormeat: Great work on the new Guide to the Dwemer. Very useful. One tiny comment, which I hope you of all people won't dismiss as "pedantic" : I'd be willing to bet that the singular of "animunculi" is "animunculus". The term seems like a blend of "animated" or "animal" and "homunculus", "little man".

And a question: has nobody deciphered the Dwemer script? Hasn't anybody tried? From the number and arrangement of the characters, it looks like a simple substitution cipher for English, like Daedric. Left to right, top to bottom, variable length groups of characters separated by spaces... shouldn't be hard to work out... unless it really isn't English under there.

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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tegger
(Curate)
10/01/02 11:28 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

I had begun to try to decipher the Dwemer script a few weeks ago, but I got sidetracked by other things. I didn't get very far, but I noticed there were patterns in the groups of characters that looked like words. However, as you said, it may not even be English underneath. One thought that occured to me -- even if it does translate to English, some of the characters may represent numbers, which could complicate matters somewhat. But if no one else has done it yet, I could go back to trying.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
No, I don't want to lay on the floor and see pictures on the ceiling. ~ TSL

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
10/02/02 12:10 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

One thing possibly of importance- "The Egg of Time" was an argument that using the tools on the Heart is a safe endeavor. It was the respnse to those who thought that what the Tonal Architects were doing might have had unforseen consequences.

I think it is certainly possible that, to help illustrate his/her point, the author would include diagrams of how their plans were to be (or might be) carried out. I don't know if they necessarily represent the ordering that should be used, but I would defiitely go so far as to argue that the second picture represents not the severing of the Dwemer link to the Heart, but rather thair plans for it- ie: use its power to become Gods / transcend mundus / whatever.

But then again, who knows. The image could either be that or what the author thought would happen if the link was severed- complete annihilation............ Dunno.

In reply to:

Great work on the new Guide to the Dwemer. Very useful. One tiny comment, which I hope you of all people won't dismiss as "pedantic" : I'd be willing to bet that the singular of "animunculi" is "animunculus". The term seems like a blend of "animated" or "animal" and "homunculus", "little man".




I'm sure you're correct. I guess I never thought about it I'll do some investigation to see if there is any evidence (or at the very least, counter examples) and add it to my list of things to change. Thank you! (and thank you for the compliment as well!)

In reply to:

And a question: has nobody deciphered the Dwemer script? Hasn't anybody tried? From the number and arrangement of the characters, it looks like a simple substitution cipher for English, like Daedric. Left to right, top to bottom, variable length groups of characters separated by spaces... shouldn't be hard to work out... unless it really isn't English under there.




Welllll......... This would suggest that the Devs certainly might just go that far to make something that not only looks good but actually has meaning as well-

[url=www.morrowind.nm.ru/package%20for%20Caius%20Cosades/index.html]http://www.morrowind.nm.ru/package%20for%20Caius%20Cosades/index.html[/url]

However, the fact that "N'Gast! Kvatka! Ktavis!" (or whaterever) is written in the language Esperanto and contains references to frogs, cats, and the internet (or something) might suggest that the devs just care about it looking good (this was all discussed in a past thread. Maybe in the Elder Scrolls forum) (EDIT: link)

Oh crap. I just realized that if I wanted to be thorough I'd have to add that entire book to my Translation dictionary.... <gawks> Forget it Its written in Esperanto, I'm not putting it in. Maybe once the devs gives us some translations I will.

Raptormeat

------------
Guildmaster: Forum Scholars Guild
Proprietor: Aldrien's Chalice Tavern- the only operational "pretend tavern Elder Scrolls concept site" on the web!

Edited by Raptormeat (10/02/02 12:22 AM)

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Srikandi
(Disciple)
10/02/02 03:20 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Thanks for the link. Interesting that none of those folks who attempted an Esperanto translation seem to have noticed that Esperanto has a different syntax from English, not just a different lexicon... in other words, you'd have to rearrange the sentences for it to make sense... ah well. I do have an Esperanto grammar around the house somewhere, but I agree with the assessment that it's not likely to prove informative!

Easy to tell just from letter frequencies if the Dwemer text is likely to be English or not. Maybe I'll have a go when I get a chance... if Tegger doesn't beat me to it

What I really want to know is what it says on those pipes. "Dwemer gas and steam co."? "Acme plumbing supplies"? or the secret to the disappearance of the dwarves: "Did you look under the bed"?

(Might be the REAL reason nobody sleeps in Morrowind...)

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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tegger
(Curate)
10/02/02 03:30 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

Re: "if Tegger doesn't beat me to it"

Not bloody likely! LOL... I'm slow when it comes to such things. I'd be delighted if you succeed first.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
No, I don't want to lay on the floor and see pictures on the ceiling. ~ TSL

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/02/02 03:43 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

My 'attempt' consited of looking for the word 'keening' and giving up when I couldn't find it. There doesn't appear to be any 7 letter words, let alone ones that have the 2nd and 3rd letter repeating, as well as the 4th and 6th.

Perhaps the word 'divine' is in there

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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tegger
(Curate)
10/02/02 04:14 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Yep, I initially tried something like that, too. It may be that the Dwemer characters are more like certain rune systems than any alphabet with which I'm familiar. If so, some of the characters may represent dipthongs and other phonetic sounds rather than merely letters. Some may even represent whole words and/or concepts.

For example, if there were separate characters to represent a K, a double-E, an N, and an ING, in addition to individual letters, Keening would be "spelled" with only 4 characters (maybe 5, if the I and NG are represented by separate characters). See what I mean? Geez, I hope it's not like this, or it'll take forever to translate, even if its underlying base is English!


)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
No, I don't want to lay on the floor and see pictures on the ceiling. ~ TSL

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B
(Curate)
10/02/02 06:52 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

In reply to:

Posted by Raptormeat

One thing possibly of importance- "The Egg of Time" was an argument that using the tools on the Heart is a safe endeavor. It was the respnse to those who thought that what the Tonal Architects were doing might have had unforseen consequences.

I think it is certainly possible that, to help illustrate his/her point, the author would include diagrams of how their plans were to be (or might be) carried out. I don't know if they necessarily represent the ordering that should be used, but I would defiitely go so far as to argue that the second picture represents not the severing of the Dwemer link to the Heart, but rather thair plans for it- ie: use its power to become Gods / transcend mundus / whatever.

But then again, who knows. The image could either be that or what the author thought would happen if the link was severed- complete annihilation............ Dunno.




Good point! *IF* we could translate the Dwemer writing, then we could learn so much more.

In "The Egg of Time," it is possible that they were arguing that the "link" could easily be shut off if the need arose; therefore, making it safe to use.

Who knows?

~B


Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
10/02/02 07:01 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Another interesting question is why that piece is called "egg of time". Were the dwemer maybe planning to create an alternative universe, aka an alternative timeline for themselves? It would be an explanation for their utter disapearance and invisibility even to the Tribunal.

It could of course also be a name for the heart itself, considering that Lorkhan is the one who brought the mortal plane (and with it time) into being.



---//Forum Scholars guild\\---

Lecturer on Morrowind natural history
Get the "Modern Adventurer" Morrowinds #1 in-game journal

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GhanBuriGhan
(Disciple)
10/02/02 10:37 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Posted by B:
"Good point! *IF* we could translate the Dwemer writing, then we could learn so much more. "

I had a look at it. At first I thought I was getting somewhere (having candidates for "the", "an" "in" "as" "at", "it"), but than I noticed something and now I am not so optimistic:
Take a look at these two:

http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/img/dwemer-egg1.jpg
http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/img/dwemer-meta1.jpg

They are just row-wise substitutions of the same lines -
Corresponding lines:
Pic 1 Pic2
1 8
2 13
3 14
4 4
5 1
etc.
There seems little hope that these are meaningful texts, at best some chant kind of thing...
The other two page are more unique:

http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/img/dwemer-egg2.jpg
http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/img/dwemer-meta2.jpg

...but I wonder. I will try some more, but at best I expect some nonsensical chant or other...


---//Forum Scholars guild\\---

Lecturer on Morrowind natural history
Get the "Modern Adventurer" Morrowinds #1 in-game journal

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
10/02/02 11:03 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: GhanBuriGhan] 

I spoke with the Elders of the council, and a debate broke out concerning the public release of the Dwemer language. I shall continue on with my persuasion and will eventually win, but please remain patient. I am quite sure such a release will aid the lot of you in your researches.

It is, however, quite a risk on my behalf. The Tribunal may not appreciate my sharing of such a thing. I could not tell you why, but it is a specualtion.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
10/02/02 12:31 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

In reply to:

I shall continue on with my persuasion and will eventually win,


I love it!

In reply to:

but please remain patient. I am quite sure such a release will aid the lot of you in your researches.



No doubt. Although, when you succeed in the release of the DwemerLanguage, then I will have many updates on many different documents to make!!!!

As an aside, it is interesting that those book images are getting so much mileage. They were the last things that I put in the guide, and even then only as an "Oh, right, I should probably put these in, too" kind of a thing

I was also curious as to why the book was called "Egg of Time". "Divine Metaphysics" makes perfect sense given the content, but Egg of Time is a sort of a mystery. The first thing I thought of when I heard it was Chrono Trigger

I agree with the alternate planes / refernces to Lorkhan's Heart possibilities, though.

Raptormeat

------------
Guildmaster: Forum Scholars Guild
Proprietor: Aldrien's Chalice Tavern- the only operational "pretend tavern Elder Scrolls concept site" on the web!

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B
(Curate)
10/02/02 06:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

In reply to:

Posted by Raptormeat:

I was also curious as to why the book was called "Egg of Time".



After a little research, I made some interesting findings about the use of the word �egg.� Some might provide some insight on the Dwemer's �Egg of Time.�

First, in The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Vivec is referred to as an egg throughout the entire thing. If one were to scan the many sermons looking for the word �egg,� he or she would find many references. Here is just one example:

Then Ayem threw the netchiman's wife into the ocean water where dreughs took her into castles of glass and coral. They gifted the netchiman's wife with gills and milk fingers, changing her sex so that she might give birth to the image as an egg.�

In Where were you when the Dragon Broke?, there is an egg reference made again:

Corax, Cyrodiil, Elder Council:

�No one understands what happened when the Selectives danced on that tower. It would be easy to dismiss the whole matter as nonsense were it not for the Amulet of Kings. Even the Elder Scrolls do not mention it -- let me correct myself, the Elder Scrolls cannot mention it. When the Moth priests attune the Scrolls to the timeless time their glyphs always disappear. The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg. Most say something in a language they can only speak sideways. The Council has collected texts and accounts from all of its provinces, and they only offer stories that never coincide, save on one point: all the folk of Tamriel during the Middle Dawn, in whatever 'when' they were caught in, tracked the fall of the eight stars. And that is how they counted their days'
.�

Finally, the most interesting thing�I remember reading about an egg-cracker or something. I was pretty sure I saw it in The Monomyth, but when I did a search at The Imperial Library, I couldn't find it. Following a hunch, I remembered that I had a copy in my personal library, albeit an older one. When I searched that document, I was surprised to find what I was looking for. For some reason, part of the text had been omitted in the newer version of the book:

"In most cultures, Anuiel is honored for his part of the interplay that creates the world, but Sithis is held in highest esteem because he's the one that causes the reaction. Sithis is thus the Original Creator, an entity who intrinsically causes change without design. Even the alien hist acknowledge this being, whom they call Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht, or �Exact Egg-Cracker�.�

What do any of these have to do with the Dwemer? I�ll let some of you voice your opinions.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
10/03/02 10:50 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

I have news on the council hearings regarding the Dwemer speach. The council seems all too afraid of the Tribunal at this point. The recent events surrounding Vvardenfell have everyone looking for answers and keeping tight on their observations. The council is more concerned with understanding this "outlander" than releasing any sort of documentation. BUT, what was discussed was a missing volume of a Dwemer translation of a popular book. This translation's whereabouts are unknown but it is possible that it is in this province. It has long been sought after by members of the council and lore masters alike, but no recovery has been claimed. I too shall begin a search for it and relay any clues as to it's location as I come across them. This wold indeed, be a wonderful find and quite a prize.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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Atrael
(Layman)
10/03/02 03:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Am I reading that right that there's another book someplace in the game that will help with translation? And these guys missed it? I have a hard time believing that. I don't think I've ever seen such in depth knowledge of a subject so difficult to pursue. Or is this a new book that was available in a patch or plug-in or something?

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evelian
(Adept)
10/03/02 03:43 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Atrael] 

They plan on releasing it to us. Just sit tight and let the wonderful role-playing ensue.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
10/03/02 05:25 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Or perhaps Master Fyr is refering to "Hanging Gardens"?

Hmm, on the other hand, it would be quite a treasure to have a Dwemer version of a book that we already know the contents of...

Raptormeat

------------
Guildmaster: Forum Scholars Guild
Proprietor: Aldrien's Chalice Tavern- the only operational "pretend tavern Elder Scrolls concept site" on the web!

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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
10/03/02 06:40 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

No I don't think it's the "hanging gardens"

I definately think you hit the nail on the head, "A Dwemer translation of a popular book" ........ now we already know that some of the Dunmer Tales were taken from Dwemer stories, so that might be a major possibilty.

But, then again, we 'should already be able to translate any dwemmer writing with the hanging gardens. We already 'know' how but it does not add up, so to speak........

Now stepping into the "Incarnate" shoes............. There are 3 people on the Telvanni Council alone that can help translate dwemmer using the hanging gardens(which I have in MY possesion). As the Arch-Magister of the Telvanni Council I think I can convice at least one of them. Then there is the Mage Guild of which I am also the Arch-Mage and there is at least one person under my autority who can at least help me form a key to translate the writings myself. The Tribunal is already trying my patience on several other subjects. I would like to convey to them the point not to try it on this particular issue. I have many outstanding grievences against them and I trust that they would wish not to incure any more.

They should fear me useing my influence as Temple Patriarch ........ oh yea, I have that also..... The Tribunal should Tend to the Healing and rebuilding of Morrowind and stay out of other matters. Particuarly those that are of interest to me. They remain in power with what little power they have left at my sufferance alone, and that is only for thier atonement. An old saying is that the pen is mightier than the sword, well be what may, I can wield eithor just as effectively as the other. I have more than proven my ability to write well in Ink or in blood. I have a good supply of ink, but I am running a little low on blood. I would rather not have to refreash my stock, but I do understand there is plenty available should there be need.


............ Now that should light a fire under the councils collective butts


])])]{




1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/03/02 08:24 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptormeat] 

Sounds like this book will be in the expansion.

I had a go at translating the Dwemer texts. Anyone know a two letter word that has a meaning backwards and forwards?

This is the part I'm refering to:
http://morrowind.ttlg.com/coolstuff/words.jpg

It occurs quite often as well.

I can't think of what it could be, which leads me to belive that the bold letters represent more than one letter.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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Srikandi
(Disciple)
10/03/02 10:02 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

"on" and "no"
"ip" (as in "IP address") and "pi" (the Greek letter)
"at" and "ta" (thanks, in Australia)
"to" and "OT" ("Off topic")

These are just the ones that spring to mind -- anyone with a Scrabble dictionary will be able to come up with lots more, I'm sure.

However, the post that reported the duplicate lines has convinced me. I haven't done the letter statistics yet but (sorry to say) it seems unlikely that this is more than a red herring... more of a cut-and-paste graphics job...

if somebody has more time than I do at the moment, and it is English, you can do an easy first pass transliteration by matching the characters in frequency order with the letters of the English alphabet... the first part of that frequency order is ETAOINSHRDLU (I'd have to look up the rest). If you get something that resembles English, the rest should be a piece of cake.

Has anyone even counted to see how many glyphs there are? 26, probably corresponds to our alphabet. But Daedric collapses a few of our letters. 20 or so, still likely. Way more or less, probably not.

NB: languages don't HAVE to be written left-right, top-bottom. It looks like Dwemer is, though, since there's never a space at the top left of the page, and the up-down character alignment isn't good.

Orthographies also don't HAVE to use spaces between words. The space could represent a character, and a symbol could represent word boundary, or word boundaries could be omitted, or characters could be grouped randomly.

Many writing systems in the real world are "syllabaries" -- where each symbol represents a syllable rather than a sound. So you'd have a different symbol for "ta", "pa", "ti", "pi" etc. In fact, alphabets all derive historically from syllabaries. Dwemer writing could be a syllabary. In that case, the words are rather long though.

As was suggested above in the post on runes, Dwemer could represent a phonemic transcription of English (that is, each symbol represents a sound rather than a letter). In that case there should be rather more than 26 symbols (40+), since English has considerably more sounds than letters. Or it could be a phonemic representation of another language. Or it could be a bad (partial) phonemic job on English...

but, the repetition of lines renders all of these rather unlikely.

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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Theodoret
(Layman)
10/04/02 12:00 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

In all the discussion concerning the Heart of Lorkhan and the disappearance of the Dwarves have any of the learned scholars present considered Dagoth Ur's use of the heart after the ascension of the Three?
The Blight and the Divine disease are almost undoubtedly a product of Dagoth Ur's experiments with the Heart.
Divayth Fyr's research has established that the Divine disease may confer semi-immortality and other powers on some, and this seems to be supported by the rumoured existance of 'Heartwraiths' and 'Ascended Sleepers'.
My fellow scholars, should we not consider the possibility that the Dwemer were simply less reckless in their pursuit of immortality than the Lord of the Sixth House?
It is possible that both the Tools and the Numidium were devices constructed to shield the Dwemer from the negative effects of the Heart. However, such devices were not necessary to draw on the Heart's power provided one was prepared to take the risk.
Perhaps Kagnarec's early experiments with the Heart yielded such horrific results that he concealed them and further research from the Dwemer King. Location of an account of early Dwemer experiments on the Heart would be invaluable (and translation of course- I wish much success to the linguists among us).
As a mear Mage Guild Warlock I doubt my insight is too startling but I feel that neglecting Dagoth Ur's work on the Heart (particularly the Divine Disease and the emergence of the Heartwraiths) leaves us with an incomplete picture of the Heart's powers and thus the disappearance of the the Dwemer.

Now where did I put that spell book?
Theodoret

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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
10/04/02 01:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

All too many times those insigts from people of 'lesser' status or rank have been ignored. Your insights are very good and I am not one to ignore insigts from anyone.

The effects of divine disease affects those according to their power, your observation of semi-immortalty is more or less correct. In cases though (one being mine, which may be an rare exception) Full imortality is confered upon them. In my case I have Divayth Fyr to thank, though I suspect that Azura did have a hand in this.

The fact that the 'Heartwraiths' and and Dagoth Ur were 'destroyed' may be a case of a more direct connection with the Heart of Lorkhan. How this was accomplished without the tools would be interesting to find out but I would not want to repeat it in any experiments. I'll point out that Dagoth Ur did have the tools for a time but this is clouded by conflicting accounts of events at red mountain. Then there are the other 6th house abominations to consider. The Ascended Sleepers and those below them were not destroyed. And they continue to return. This is a Troubleing puzzle.

What does this have to do with the Dwemer ? Everything, the Key is the tools it seems and I need to have an accurate accounting of events to be able to make some sense of all the pieces of this puzzle.

So we have many aspects to look at. I'll break it into catagories : (1) The Dwemer (2) The Tribunal (3) Dagoth Ur and the Ash Vampires (4) The rest affected by 'Divine' Disease........... all are related to the use of the Heart of Lorkhan and the Tools be it directly or indirectly. Cat 4 may only be a by-product of Cat 3, and I believe this is the case. The Only other differance is HOW the tools were used.

Also to be considered is How the power was used after the fact. In the case of the Tribunal they 'transcended' the Heart or more to the point Their power was suplamented by belief of the people. In the case of Dagoth Ur his power came Directly and Indirectly from the Heart of Lorkhan, this being his following were indirectly affected by the heart. I think this is extreamly important to fully understand what happened to the Dwemer. I'm sure there are other influences to consider and some of them hang always in the back of my mind.

One other 'minor detail' that bothers me, The Dwemer are linked by the "calling". Right ? Well it would be interesting to know why the spirits of the dwemer were not affected by the use of the tools. Could be nothing, could be an important key.

])])]{





1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/04/02 02:53 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

I have a question that may be simply answered, or perhaps not. I am a mere tadpole in this pond full of frogs. While researching in the vast ruins of the Dwemer, I have more than once come across the ghosts of Dwemer. Now, if the Dwemer didn't actually die, but are trapped in another plane or somewhere else entirely, how would it be possible for their ghosts to still haunt these ruins? Could these be Dwemer that merely happened to die before the disapearance, or does this mean that the Dwemer did in fact perish? May I also note that I have only seen these ghosts in the ruins, and not elsewhere; I doubt that every Dwemer were located in these ruins at the time of their dispearance...then again, the ruins may be the only place they can manifest themselves.

I won't let myself wander any farther, for there could be a very simple solution that I'm not seeing. Just thought I'd add my two Septims.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
10/04/02 06:05 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Exactly, those are the 'spirits' I was refering too. One would assume they were dead before the dissapearance and now return to haunt the ruins. It would be interesting to be able to speak to one but they do not seem to be very talkative.......... BUT, all assumtions asside, they should have been taken with the rest of the dwemer anyway.

A wild speculation of mine is that they were intended to remain behind as caretakers, or we would see more of them than we do. Pehaps they are needed to run the machines and this could be somehow related to the disapearance......... what I'm getting at that the Dwemer (could have) used the Heart to Asscend/Transcend (Reality ?), the machines are (might be) a power source that maintains it. From observations on the guradians they are powered from machines for some distance it seems (at least in an around Vvardenfell) there is a limmit to the transmition of that power though. Using this speculation as a basis of theory, the Dwemer could still be in the area, only in another reality..... and their machines keep them there. The 'ghosts' could very well be a manifestation of them in our reality when the check in on their machines........... Wild Speculation I know, but I have had much wilder on other things and could not be any closer to the truth than I was.

The short answer is there is no answer as such, only speculation, like I said before it's one of those 'Minor Details' that bother me


])])]{





1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Vostok
(Novice)
10/04/02 06:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

I know im way over my head jumping into a thread packed with lore whores without hardly reading but a few pages of it, but to add my .03$:

Divayath Fyr is the most powerful NPC in the game in case anyone didn't know. Specifically hes listed as a lvl60 char; trailing him are Wulf at 55 and Lord Cluttermonkey the Argonian Farmer (who is this guy?) at 50. All of his stats are at 150, and he has 999 of hp, mp, and fatigue. He also has an almost full Daedric set (if you couldn't already tell) although equiped with a relatively crappy Daedric dagger instead of somthing more buff. He is the most powerful sorceror with Baladas Demnevanni trailing a distant second at 35. Obviously he's also the most powerful Dark Elf, with a pack of Telvanni sorcerors in tow (Therana [Mage, 44], Baladas [Sorc, 35], Dratha [Sorc, 31] Aryon [Sorc, 31].)

On the topic of what happened to the Dwarves:
Dremora use Dwarven weapons. Just something to think about .

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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
10/05/02 11:46 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Vostok] 

Sorry, not much on RP today......... Most powerful Dark Elf, that would be ME . Most powerful NPC (friendly/non-monster), Yea He's got that.


Dremora use whatever quality weapons they can get their hands on, and well the Dwemer don't realy seem to be using what's left of theirs

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Valynis
(Layman)
10/05/02 09:26 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

I followed this whole discussion in the shadows of my secret hiding place, refraining myself to participate out of sheer habit. You see, this need I'm wearing is actually a disguise. I'm a wanted person. I've been a slave to a powerful Dunmer house (I won't say which one - I don't want them to start looking out for me again!) for so many years, never allowed to voice my thoughts... But I escaped. And, today, I feel safe enough to ask a few questions, maybe even shake a few preconceptions, if that's possible.

My first questions is a "what if" about Kagrenac's Tools. It is well documented that Wraithguard, Sunder and Keening are the tools Nerevar asked Dagoth Ur to keep and protect while he was away to consult his peers about their ultimate destiny. These three tools had then been used a certain amount of times after that (by Dagoth Ur, Vivec, Almexia and Sotha Sil - these are the occurences we know of) but none of these occurences ever repeated the results of Kagrenac's own use of the tools: the disappearance of a whole race. Several theories have been laid down to explain this (particular sequence of the tools's usage; involvement from a higher entity, mostly Azura...) but I have yet to hear someone discuss this idea I came up with: What if there's a fourth tool?

There's no mention of it anywhere, I know. And The Egg of Time's illustrations don't seem to suggest there's any more involved (I have 2 reservations toward The Egg of Time: 1. I don't really see Wraithguard in there either and 2. I have the tendency to consider it as quite incomplete, at least in regard to being a Hearth of Lohkan Instruction Manual.) Still, I believe it could be a theory worth thinking about. So where could that 4th Tool be (and incidently what could it be?) I can see 2 possibilities. A- It disappeared with Kagrenac. This could be possible if the tool was, in essence, an item of clothing. The Dwemer disappeared with anything they were wearing at this moment. That would leave the three remaining weapon-armor-natured tools behind, but not the 4th, if Kagrenac was wearing it. B- It had such a unsignificant and/or common appearance that it wasn't recognized as such and was ultimately discarded, destroyed or left alone.

Granted, the existence of a 4th tool is purely hypothetical, just for the sake of discussions.

My second question regards Yagrum Bagarn, the alleged Last Dwarf. Has it ever occured to you that the fact that the only Dwemer to escape the Great Disappearance was actually a close collaborator of Kagrenac quite a peculiar coincidence? What if the coincidence wasn't caused by Randomness, but by Purpose? That idea germed into a little theory and I'd like to expose it to you, if you don't mind.

Realizing his people defeat to Nerevar, Kagrenac used the tools on the heart in order to shelter the entire race from the repercussions of the Dwemer King's death... with the excepetion of one of his trusted assistants, Bagarn. We must understand that it is highly likely that all Dwemer were linked somehow to the Heart so they could all disappear at the same time, wherever in Tamriel they were. I believe Bagarn might have been affected as well, only differently. If the Dwemer were transported to another plane (just an exemple), it might be possible that the odd dwarf had been purposely transported only to a different, safer place. Bagarn would have been left behind for one purpose: bring the Dwemer back when the time would be right.

Let's say that once Bagarn reappeared, he began to work on bringing back his people. Whatever that involved, it is quite certain he wouldn't have had the time because of Dagoth Ur's inability to resist the temptation to use the Tools on the Heart. As he did so, the Blight came down on the land. Bagarn, linked to the Hearth as he still was, caught the Divine Disease, which in turn caused him to lose his mind. That would of course put a stop on his main objective, bringing back the Dwemer. I believe that even Bagarn himself claims that he had lost all traces of sanity at one point. Apparently, he's back in some semblant of intellectual shape now, I've heard. Still, it's possible that all the knowledge about the Disappearance is still eluding his memory. If that's the case, Yagrum Bagarn would be a man to be fiercely protected as he hold the destiny of his people in his hands (or in his troubled mind, if you prefer.) If the Dwemer are merely on another plane of existence, I guess it wouldn't be that bad if Bagarn disappeared. But if they were all like in suspension, out of Time and out of Space, not existing, I shudder to think of Bagarn dying with his knowledge lost in his contorted mind.

You may say I have a wild imagination. I'm not protesting that. When you're a slave, your imagination grows as quickly as your speechcraft diminishes.

I have two other questions. I hear this version of the Red Mountain events where it is stated that the Tribunal killed Nerevar when he tried to oppose their attempt at using the Tools to become gods. That would include Nerevar's own spouse Almexia among his murderers. Call me old-fashioned but that somehow goes against all I've heard about the warrior goddess (being good, and just and a loving wife, etc...) Granted, my sources aren't necessary the best. Can anyone in here help me to grasp this concept with a better understanding of the lady?

Finally, about Nerevar himself. I have learned that, in life, no one is absolutely Good nor Evil. Even my former master wasn't all that bad actually. So when all I hear is how great Nerevar had been for the Chimer, I'm looking for the opposite side of the septim. I don't geny his accomplishment, not at all! I also understand how history can become legend over time, when accuracy gets lost under the stress of grandeur. Still, I'm really curious about Nerevar the mer, the mortal. How was he really? Was he as virtuous as the texts proclaim? Now that the Tribunal is slowly subsiding, I believe the search for an actual answer to that request is actually possible. Anyone here has any insights to share?

Thank you for listening to my humble thoughts. Blessings to you.

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Srikandi
(Disciple)
10/05/02 11:03 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

Well, I found 25 Dwemer characters on one page of Divine Metaphysics. That makes it highly likely that it's a transliteration of the Roman alphabet. Maybe I'll be able to get to the frequencies this weekend.

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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Reubin Halfmoon
(Layman)
10/05/02 11:28 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Valynis] 

You are rather well spoken for one who claims to have been in bondage. I can assure you that if my people knew what awaits them at their door step they would waist no time hunting slaves.

A fourth tool. Possible though I would imagine it highly unlikely. I would think that the nature of the enchantment, even if it were just a shirt, would cause it to stay behind as did the other tools. Also I would say that while there may be many was to strike Lorkhan to produce an affect I would think that it would be so that all tools were needed regardless of what affect you were trying to bring about.

Yagrum being one of Kagrenac's tonal architects is something that has intrigued me since I first met him. It is quite possible that he was left behind to serve a purpose to the departed Dwemer. But what that purpose may be is anyones guess for as you know he is far from capable of remembering his former life.

And to the one that names himself Dracodrakonis:
You boast high for a young one who is just learning to swim.

I AM Indoril Halfmoon

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bigdog60960
(Acolyte)
10/06/02 10:05 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Reubin Halfmoon] 

I like your way of thinking Reubin............ But i also think more people should take note of what Master Fyr said. Basically what is more mysterious, the whole dwemer vanishing, or one seemingly important dwemer (as far as the heart goes) that is still left.

Tom

_________________________

Level 48 Dark Elf Rouge


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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/06/02 10:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bigdog60960] 

Before I read the rest of the posts, here is what have to say about the dwemer books...

There are three known books in Vvardenfell tied to the Dwemer. Two are untranslated (The Egg of Time, Divine Metaphysics). Now, because I am REALLY into Morrowind lore, I have come to know what the untranslated books are about. The Egg of Time actually tells of Kagrenac's tools, how to use them, and why the Dwemer Dissapeared.

Divine Metaphysics is actually about Akulakhan. Yes, our favorite giant robot, the Akulakhan. It tells how the dwemer already planned what Dagoth Ur was doing, although with different intentions. Hanging garden's will give you an idea of both books.

Now, if you want the full story from the books, there are TWO people who can help. One is Baladas, the secluded Telvanni in Gnisis. And the other, Yagrum, the supposably last living Dwarf. Now, I haven't been to either of them, I am just so geeky I figured it out. The locations of the books are...

Hanging Gardens-The dwemer ruin Edwinna Elbert of the Ald'rhun mage's guild send you to for the excavation report.

Divine Metaphysics-I...forgot...

The Egg of Time-The lower part of the Gnisis eggmine. Follow the underground stream to a wrecked Dwemer Ruin. The book is in there.

Can I get my officiaql Geekhood now?

"I, love, playin' two-hand touch! Eatin' way to much! Watchin' my team win...and Twins!"

"I, love, quarterbacks eatin' dirt! Pom-poms and short skirts! Catching them pig-skins...and those Twins!"

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Dracodrakonis
(Initiate)
10/06/02 11:37 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Reubin Halfmoon] 

" And to the one that names himself Dracodrakonis:
You boast high for a young one who is just learning to swim. "

Even I do not know how old I am, I have no recollection of my life previous to release from Imperial imprisonment. In fact I can recall more of my 'original life' than I can before I came to Vvardenfell, and that is precious little and only from a dreamy distance. Some more of my current life I know, but can not reveal before the appointed time.

Being much older than I seem would answer why I have been able to rise to power in many areas where it normaly takes a liftime to achieve just one accomplishment. But then I am still only just begining to realize my full potential, or at least guess at what that might be. I can fully understand why the Tribunal is fearful and the council heasitant....... that being said, I feel part of me is still held back, perhaps by Azura to test my intentions are still what they once were. Perhaps it waits until I'm ready for my True Potenial. All arguments aside, I make no boast, all I say is/was common knowledge, some even before I came back into being. .......OK I may boast about going to put Vivec in a soul gem or Using the Mad God to enchant my favorite backup weapon.......but that also is common knowedge of what I'm supposed to do...... I'm just keeping the Tribunal "Honest" and reminding them to make amends for their past wrongs or face me...... we all know that they probaly will not but I feel that I have to at least give them the opportunity for redemption. Vivec may be sincere in his atonement but I have yet to hear from eithor of the other two, yet. Time will reaveal all and this time around I have all the time in the world.

4th tool, originaly unlikely, now another tool created by Dagoth Ur later...... That is a possibilty that can not be dissmissed, in fact it would answer many questions.

Yagrum, hummm, interesting, I too suspect he knows more than he is willing to tell. That much is obvious, what that is he is not saying is difficult to guess at.

The only one who could reveal the Truth about the past does not appear to be ready to reveal the entirity what they know. This would be Azura, and I trust her judgment, It may turn out that I might not like the reasons for some things, but I will say she is the most trustworthy of any of the powers and I believe she would not wish betray my trust in her. I think maybe she has invested a large portion of her power in me, this would also explain why I have been able to advance so quickly, comeing as if out of nowhere........ but even that I can only guess at beyond what I 'feel'.

])])]{




1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Confused Lizard
(Layman)
10/07/02 09:56 AM
abit confused now [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Not to stray too far from the topic, but there some things Im confused about after reading these posts.

Am I the only one that thought Dagoth was more friendly towards Nevar and the PC then Vivec (and presumably and the other gods as well)? Shame you had to kill him instead of being able to cure him of his madness.

Also I thought you learned in the game, It was Dagoth who was loyal to Nevar and tried to protect/stop the Tribunal from using wraithguard and etc. Then after his defeat, turned himself into a god so he could fight against the tribunal, but instead went mad over the years.

Werent Vivec and the other higher ups at the time kind of annoyed about Nevar being such good friends (or sworn brothers or something like that) with the Dwarf King?

Why exactly were Vivec and the other gods so dead set against the PC learning how to complete the ritual/binding, since he was suppose to be the reincarnation of their "beloved friend and leader"?

With the expansion coming up, Ive been replaying the game to refresh my memory, since I havent touched the game after finishing it back in May/June, so I could be way off on most of those, tried looking on some fansites, but all my morrowind bookmarks seem to be outdated these days.

Any good fansites still around with some info?

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tegger
(Curate)
10/07/02 10:09 AM
Re: abit confused now [re: Confused Lizard] 

The scenario you described is *one* version of the story, and it may be at least partly true (we just don't know how much, if any).

As for "Why exactly were Vivec and the other gods so dead set against the PC learning how to complete the ritual/binding": If the Nerevarine had completed the ritual, he/she would have also become god-like, thus repeating the "sin of the Dwemer" (and the Tribunal). Lord Nerevar never partook of those rituals (as far as anyone can tell), so his new "incarnation" wouldn't necessarily be expected to do so, either.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Political correctness is just another form of socially acceptable dishonesty. ~ TSL

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Confused Lizard
(Layman)
10/07/02 11:49 AM
Re: abit confused now [re: tegger] 

Would it really matter that much if the PC did though?

Seeing as most likely the PC will already live forever due to the Corpus like that bloated deformed dwarf guy you meet, whos at least as old as the tribunal (4000 years?) and its not too hard kill or better yet imprison Vivec after playing for a while, so the PC is already pretty godlike. Or did destorying the heart end the effects of Corpus and the blight all together?

Game didnt seem to give out hardly any info after the "ending" really, kind of annoying, but then again I could've just missed it all entirely and not noticed.

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tegger
(Curate)
10/07/02 12:14 PM
Re: abit confused now [re: Confused Lizard] 

While it's true that the Incarnate can be seen as rather god-like, it could possibly have been disastrous if he/she had chosen to use the power of the Heart. Remember, it has a history of corrupting Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal (and perhaps the Dwemer, too). Azura is said to have cursed the Tribunal for breaking their oath to Nerevar (their vow that they would never seek to use Kagrenac's Tools to gain the Heart's power). Surely she wouldn't want the Incarnate to repeat their folly. And yes, if the Incarnate had taken the power, the Blight (and all its implications) would still exist and its horror might even be many times multiplied.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Political correctness is just another form of socially acceptable dishonesty. ~ TSL

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Theodoret
(Layman)
10/07/02 08:48 PM
Re: abit confused now [re: tegger] 

Was destroying the Heart or Dagoth Ur the event which ended the Blight? I'm not sure the Heart was destroyed as the Tribunal are still god-like (albeit weakened). Maybe if Nerevar had found a way to kill Dagoth Ur without using the tools on the Heart the Blight would dissapear anyway. I got the impression that Dagoth Ur created and could control the Blight. Maybe it died when it's creator died.
I do agree that Nerevar would have been corrupted if he had used the Heart to become a god. Even the Tribunal seem to have become corrupted (if they were'nt already), just think of the Inquisition.

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gblues
(Initiate)
10/07/02 10:04 PM
Re: abit confused now [re: Theodoret] 

This thread has been quite interesting to read!

--stepping into RP shoes --

I am by no means a loremaster, but I would offer my own insights.

There was some discussion as to why Yagrum Bagam appears to be the the sole survivor of the Dwemer disappearance, and it was suggested that Yagram did not disappear as a result of Corprus. However, by his own account, he did not contract Corprus until after the disappearance. To wit:

In reply to:

Hmm.... I cannot say what happened. I was not there to observe. I was in an Outer Realm at the time, and when I came back, my people were gone. I left Red Mountain, wandering Tamriel for years, searching our deserted colonies, looking for a survivor or an explanation. Then, a long, long time ago, I returned to Red Mountain, still looking for answers. Instead, I found corprus disease, and I have been here ever since.




Yagram was clearly not in Tamriel when the Battle of Red Mountain took place, and that absence may have saved his life. It was also suggested that Yagram was a conspirator with Kagrenac, but it does not seem that Yagram got on well with Kagrenac. When I showed him Divine Metaphysics, he commented,

In reply to:

This book is just an explanation of some of Kagrenac's theories. I could spend hours explaining them to you, but Kagrenac is dead, and I believe his theories must die with him.




This, I think, hints that Yagram was highly suspicious of Kagrenac's work and interprets the disappearance as proof of those suspicions.

With regards to the Heart of Lorkhan, I find it a bit, well, odd that such a powerful artifact could be destroyed by a few whacks with (albeit enchanted) mundane weapons like a hammer and a blade. No, my belief is that the manifestation of the Heart guarded by Dagoth Ur is merely a binding, in the same way that an adept conjurer can create a sharp blade or light armor from daedric spirits. Therefore, the Incarnate is merely breaking the bound enchantment placed upon the Heart by Kagrenac.

I also do not believe the disappearance of the Dwemer to be linked with a breaking of the Heart link, for the simple reason that neither Dagoth Ur nor the Tribunal suffer similar fates when the Incarnate frees the Heart. If we believe that Neravar died in the battle with Dumac, it may be that Kagrenac attempted to use the Heart on all Dwemer as a "secret weapon" sort of maneuver, but either made a miscalculation that destroyed the Dwemer or the "secret weapon" was in fact an emergency evacuation (think "run away! flee in terror!").

I suspect that the nature of where--or when--the Dwemer disappeared to will be either strongly hinted at in Tribunal, or perhaps made into the subject of TES4.

Calath

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Kill quest bugs dead! Questfix Plugin

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Theodoret
(Novice)
10/07/02 10:59 PM
Re: abit confused now [re: gblues] 

"I suspect that the nature of where--or when--the Dwemer disappeared to will be either strongly hinted at in Tribunal, or perhaps made into the subject of TES4."

-I look forward to it. I think the Heart of Lorkhan/Disapearance of the Dwarves stuff really breathes life into Morrowind's main plot. It would be good to see that continued in later games

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Confused Lizard
(Layman)
10/08/02 05:50 AM
Re: abit confused now [re: Theodoret] 

Why exactly was it a Sin what the Dwarves did? Only reason I can see for it be considered it a sin would be from maybe the elves's point of view. I dont recall the game specificly mentioning whatever it was Kagrenac was up to was inherintly evil.

Also, I have a hard time with the Heart being responsible for corrupting the tribunal, if they did actually wack Nerevar like parts of the game lead you to believe, then it sounds like they were already a bunch of bastards to start with, even if they didnt they still broke their Vow or whatnot themselves I thought, long before they even came near the heart.

I always got the impression the elves, as it were, were geting kind of jealous the Dwarves had something like the heart to fiddle around with, especially if it could've made them stronger then the elves. So they told Nerevar a bunch of stuff to get him to make war with the Dwarves and so on.

But then again Ive hated elves ever since I was just a hatchling, so I could be a bit biased.

Hopefully the ingame engine can support something like a flashback scene or something like that, or else the only other way I can see the devs of clearing the whole thing up, would be meeting the ghost/spirit of Nerevar himself, which would kind of ruin the story imo.

Hats (or whatever it is that Argonians can wear on their heads) off to whoever wrote the story/lore for the game, they definitely out did themselves thats for sure.

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tegger
(Curate)
10/08/02 06:12 AM
Re: abit confused now [re: Confused Lizard] 

Indeed sin, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Call it folly, then. Even Vivec himself admitted that breaking his vow was his greatest regret. But then, that may have been simply because he'd been "caught" -- who knows what his attitude would be if the Tribunal's dirty little secret had been maintained.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Political correctness is just another form of socially acceptable dishonesty. ~ TSL

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
10/08/02 10:10 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Reubin Halfmoon] 

Here's a mindbender: Think about the Incarnate's final battle in the Nerevarine prophecy (the "end" of the game). Now... did Dagoth Ur summon/bound the Heart? Or... did the Heart summon/bound Dagoth Ur? What if Dagoth Ur, this possibly formerly good man and friend of Nerevar, was corrupted by the Heart directly... as if the Heart itself had a mind and an agenda of its own?

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Theodoret
(Novice)
10/08/02 11:29 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

I would not be surprised if the Heart did have its own agenda, probably to be reunited with Lorkhan. Having said that, Dagoth Ur's actions are more consistant with those of a misguided patriot. Setting aside the battle of Red Mountain, as we do not know whether he was treacherous or loyal, his actions seem calculated to remove the N'Wah from Morrowind and increase the power of the Dunmer. I'm not sure if Dagoth was controlled by the Heart. Perhaps his corruption was merely the result of his gaining more power than he was able to use wisely. Granted, Dagoth Ur is rabidly racist, but he seems to share that with many of the Dunmer.

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
10/08/02 12:46 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

That was true after the Battle of Red Mountain, but how does that explain the recent events? Think about it... the Sixth House cult's idea is old, but the spread of the Blight and ash statues across Vvardenfell, outside the Ghostfence, is new. What made Dagoth Ur "wake up" just as the true Nerevarine came to Morrowind? Why did his plans start working now, four millenia after the Battle of Red Mountain?

Another thing that just hit home... the Nerevarine must meet Divayth Fyr and, through him, Yagyurn Bagrum. Catching Corprus and curing it could have been a side quest, but in order to fulfil the prophecy he must transcend disease... and in doing so, meet the Last Living Dwarf. I don't think the Nerevarine prophecies and the search for Sotha Sil in Tribunal are so seperated that everyone thinks. This will be in Mournhold, the Capital of Morrowind. Why would the Elder Scrolls 3 expansion be set in Morrowind, if not to continue the plot? It could have taken place in Sentinel, or Necrom, or even Cyrodil. Why Mournhold if not to continue the mystery of the Dwarves and continue the legend of the Nerevarine?

One odd thing I noticed was when doing one of Edwinna's missions (finding the excavation report), Siphis wrote that he heard that some of the centurion spiders got really rowdy and acted up as they were transported to the mainland... then fell totally silent as they went away from Vvardenfell. It really makes me wonder what's going on with all of this.

At the very least, I seriously think the search for Sotha Sil will provide new light, and perhaps actual clarity on what happened to the Dwemer. Vivec's story: "I dunno." Dagoth Ur's story: "I dunno." Yagyurn's story: "I dunno." Sotha Sil's story: "I was there?"

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Theodoret
(Novice)
10/08/02 02:27 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

Dagoth Ur did not suddenly resume activity a few days before the arrival of the Nerevarine. He had defeated the Tribunal in the Heart Chamber at Red Mountain centuries before. This, in turn, led to a gradual worsening of the Blight as the Tribunal's powers declined and they could no longer fully contain Dagoth Ur. Also Akulakhan was nearing completion as the Nerevarine appeared, and it may have been the imminent completion of the golem, as much as the re-emergence of Nerevar that caused Dagoth Ur to increase his activity. If the Heart is involved directly then one would expect the Underking to be making an appearance.
I do hope you are right about Sotha Sil though. With luck the Clockwork City may clarify matters concerning the Dwemer.

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Theodoret
(Novice)
10/10/02 10:59 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Shameless attempt to replace the 'I want Tribunal yesterday' threads on the front page with something more interesting.

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tegger
(Curate)
10/10/02 11:30 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

LOL, thanks, Theodoret. Took me a second to figure out what you meant.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
The tobacco companies didn't make me do it. ~ TSL

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Theodoret
(Novice)
10/10/02 11:32 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Don't mention it. Any thoughts on the Dwemer topic?

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Confused Lizard
(Layman)
10/10/02 12:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Ive always wondered how exactly all the Dwemer automations are powered, or even how they've managed to stay powered for 4000ish years. Heck those guys could give the energizer bunny a run for its money if anything.

I thought it was the heart that did it, or something like that, but seeing as they still seem to be chugging along even after the hearts removed, its probably something else (unless it was just too difficult to implement for the dev or something like that).

Cant really see them being "just magic" or something, since the Dwarves in general were suppose to be completely against magic, werent they?

On a side note, anyone know which was the "offical" ending for Daggerfall? or where I could find out at least. After something as close to the end of the world/empire as the Daggerfall story was, you'd think afew people on Vvardenfell would've at least heard about it.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 12:05 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

I believe they use steam power from the volcanic mountain. They probably have pipes and the like delving deep into the ground that get heated through the intense heat in the ground. This type of power can be used today. And since it's an elemental source of energy, it doesn't run out, allowing their machines to run as long as they don't break down. If someone can go into more detail, feel free.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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tegger
(Curate)
10/10/02 12:24 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

It was discovered that some Dwemer centurions stopped working on a ship sailing away from Vvardenfell, but then reactivated as the ship moved back in toward shore. But so far, no one has made any conclusive "heads or tails" of this clue.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
The tobacco companies didn't make me do it. ~ TSL

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 12:33 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Yeah, that's another story there altogether. I'd assume with all the pipes and steam everywhere, that there's a lot of [can't think of type of energy this is called] power. Ergh! The name is right on the tip of my tongue.

As for the centurions, I don't know. That could be related to the appearance of dwemer ghosts in only the ruins. Perhaps the steam power runs machines that give mechanical "life" to centurions and other dwemer devices in general. Maybe through the mixing of mechanical and magical elements? It seems very possible to me. And with the power of these magical/mechanical elements, the ghosts are able to manifest. This is all speculation, but some of it makes sense when looking at what the ruins LOOK like they're doing. (pipes channeling something everywhere, machines placed here and there)

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Confused Lizard
(Layman)
10/10/02 12:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

I guess steampower would work on the ones near Red moutain, but what about the ones outside of Vvardenfell? There was a clan on the mainland of Morrowind I think, also another one somewhere in Skyrim? or some other country one wasnt there?

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tegger
(Curate)
10/10/02 01:00 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

Re: "but what about the ones outside of Vvardenfell"

Ah, there's the rub, indeed. The Rourke clan in Hammerfell disappeared the same time as the Morrowind Dwemer, but in both cases (I think) machines survived. I personally think this tells us that, though steam may be a factor, thermal energy may not be the only energy at work here. This is among the many reasons why some feel the Dwemer actually still exist, somehow, somewhere, perhaps closer than we might think.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
The tobacco companies didn't make me do it. ~ TSL

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majestic12
(Curate)
10/10/02 01:06 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

In reply to:

[can't think of type of energy this is called] power. Ergh! The name is right on the tip of my tongue.




Geothermal?

-----------------------------------------------------------
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 01:33 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: majestic12] 

Yes, yes yes!!! Geothermal! Thank you. That was annoying more than a glass arrow caught in my rump.

I definately believe the machines there use *geothermal* energy to run, but what the machines do, is unknown. I thought of the idea that they tap the heart's power, but I don't think that makes much since because that would mean they would have built everything AFTER tapping it. There has to be some mystical element involved. The great thing is we can speculate all day and night, but there's no definative proof to determine anything, so I suppose we'll have to wait and see if our upcoming trips to the mainland will prove helpful.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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majestic12
(Curate)
10/10/02 01:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

That's what I'm here for.

-----------------------------------------------------------
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

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Theodoret
(Novice)
10/10/02 01:59 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: majestic12] 

Perhaps if the Dwemer machines are utilising some magical source of energy some sort of anti-magic/disrupt magic spell would deactivate them. The steam driven and geothermal engines are no doubt a part of the puzzle, but how do they transmit the energy to the constructs? Deactivation of constructs as they are separted from Vvardenfell suggests energy is being transmitted, and that this transmission has limited range. I agree that the Heart is unlikely the source of power driving these machines.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 02:06 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Perhaps part of the Dwemer's blasphemy was the ability to create a support their own sort of "magic." With these machines, they could harness an energy for their own use, with magic-like properties. And if they were able to channel this energy into their constructs, they could channel enough of it to create their new gods. This is a major key to understanding the Dwemer.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
10/10/02 02:13 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Operation of the Dwemer constructs isnt too hard to figure out actually. Yagrum here builds them out of pure fun, and many folk across the continent with the mechanical know-how have even succeeded at building these creations. Given they have the correct materials, they are quite simple. An old theory that they used a combination of steam power and magicka was questioned when a fellow in southern Morrowind built one successfully without an understanding of the magical arts. The Dwemer used a power source of which is long lost to our knowlege and you can still find a many of these power containers around. They go for a pretty drake. As for the fellow in the south, he was able to concoct a power source out of various ingredients, including an elixir, from which he would not reveal the specifics. I imagine it came from an illegal market and was not cheap in the slightest bit. His creations resemble the Dwemer constructs given he uses spare parts from them. He is quite an open fellow regarding them, and seeks to market them in some manner. Now, these being powered by a fluid source, can only mean that they will cease to operate once the drain this fuel or power. Clearly, not what the Dwemer used.

Now, my idea for the Dwemer power source would still lean towards a combination of magicka and steam. Not all magicka was ignored by the Dwemer. It was simply not a widely used and taught art. If there were some way of knowing what exactly was in the containers that still lie about, I might be able to decipher such a thing and solve this riddle. Quite simply though, it is unlikely. Yagrum would know, but alas, he has lost much of his sanity and mind to the sickness. Perhaps one day, it will come back to him.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 02:18 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Sort of techo-magic? It seems likely that the machines are generating or controlling magical energy. If one could be retrieved it would be a great prize for the Mage Guild.
On a slight tangent, the Songs of King Wulfhearth (sp?) mention that Dagoth Ur had some Dwemer constructs which he used at the Battle of Red Mountain. I know the Songs are a bit unreliable but 'Antecedants of Dwemer Law' also suggests that constructs could be 'owned' by individuals. In fact I hear rumours that some Telvani possess centurion guards. But how do these constructs recognise an owner and how can ownership be transfered? If the process is magical then that may have something in common with the means by which the constructs are powered.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/10/02 02:31 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

I had previously touched on this particular theory in that .........

A) The Dwemer Used the Heart to Ascend
B) They use 'power' from from their mysterious machines to maintain it.

I'll touch again what myself and others have pointed out.

There is limmited range of this power source as observed by our curious ships captain. This could actualy support the above as dwemer from all over were affected by this. The limmited range could help explain the reason that dwemer were 'called' to a particular area and then using the heart to ascend. Perhaps their power source was not enough for them to 'make the jump' so they used the heart. Now what happened to the dwemer that were a considerable distance away one can only guess at, and my guess is that is was not very good.

Where they went is still a question if they actualy went anywhere. But there is a matter of the Heart and Creation and the dwemer practice of 'anti-creation' arts. Perhaps they 'created' their own little pocket of 'anti-reality' .

I suspect we may never know the full story, and scholors will be debateing this for years to come.

])])]{




1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 02:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Lord Fyr's point about the power cells makes the Heart theory redundant I think. Has anyone retrieved one of these cells from the body of a construct? Also this entrepreneur responsible for the manufacture of mechanical servants is most interesting. Are the Telvani 'centurions' his handiwork? Is anyone aware of how he makes his constructions recognise their master? And do these constructs become deactivated when separated from their master by a great distance. I think the Dwemer constructs we find on Vvardenfell may be 'owned' by the Dwemer spirits they often seem to protect.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 02:53 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

I suspect I need to visit a nearby Dwemer ruin soon. Perhaps some clues can be obtained. Has anyone else found objects or areas that seemed perhaps useful information in the aspect of how they work?

Also, I'm still debating whether they weilded the commonly-used magicka, or had something of their own accord. If it was magicka, what kind and to what extent did they use it? Could the contents of those containers have something in them, that if powered through use of steam, produce magical energy that the Dwemer were then able to harness? (I am thinking of something like a chemical or physical reaction) That's the only possible mechanical/magical combination I can see of right now. I also considered the possibility of souls or spritual energy in these containers, but have nowhere to go beyond that thought. Yet.

Theodoret spoke while I was processing my thoughts, and he states some valid points as well. Who do the centurions obey in the ruins?

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

Edited by evelian (10/10/02 02:55 PM)

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 03:02 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

In a Dwemer stronghold north of Balmora I found constructs that seemed to either reassemble or be replaced when I returned to the area after a time. Perhaps the machines in the hold are responsible although I have never witnessed reassembly.

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Srikandi
(Disciple)
10/10/02 03:05 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

I've obtained a centurion servant from Baladas. It (he? she?) follows me around and fights for me. Baladas must have had some way of letting it know that I was its new master. Pity I can't disassemble it and look inside! (Since it's a bit too slow to be a useful companion...)

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 03:11 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

To stop role-playing for a second...

I wonder if that was intentional and fits in with everything, or if the devs that put them there didn't realize how the constructs got there. If it DOES fit in, it adds many more possibilities, but if it was just a "Dwemer Stronghold > Centarions > eh...we'll make 'em respwan" situation, then it may, in fact, mean nothing.

Now back to our regularly scheduled RPing...
I have never seen this process, either. Furthermore, I cannot recall a time when I've seen any creature move far from their position. I doubt many have seen such a thing, as they seem to only reappear after so many days.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 03:13 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Srikandi] 

Hmm...and the key would be whether that process was mechanical or magical. I suppose Baladas would rather not say, for he'd me much less special if everyone knew such a secret.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 04:02 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

[steps out of character] Yes, I think the constructs are just randomly respawning. But it would be nice to think up an explaination that fits with the game environment. [steps back into wizardly robes]
I must pay this Baladas a visit sometime. Perhaps he is the entrepreneur Lord Fyr mentioned. Another interesting find - I discovered an unusual object identified by a friend in the Guild as a 'Coherer' or somesuch name. He was unable to determine its function but by its shape it appears to be used in the combining of two liquids. Could this have been used by the Dwemer to make their power cells?
Another interesting observation. Some of the Dwemer ruins are small, too small. I strongly suspect that there are concealed doors in many of the holds. Granted, this is merely a hunch, but it would make a lot of sense. The workings of many of the Dwemer machines seem to run into walls and ceilings, and I am prevented from following them. However the Dwemer would have needed to access them for repairs and adjustments.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/10/02 04:13 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

The Dwemer ruins are just that...ruins. It's amazing how intact some of them are, but they are all at least 3,500 years. I've seen many pathways blocked due to fallen rocks and the like. This is probably the main reason for the small remains of many of the ruins, but I would not doubt there to be many concealed passages still there beneath the ground. I am really starting to suspect that the material/liquid they used for power created a magic of some sort or another that they controlled and somehow still do with their machines. It seems that everything became automated, and that the entire cities and dwelings contributed to this massive collection of power.

I could speculate to eternity. Perhaps it is there I will find the Dwemer.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Huntsman
(Acolyte)
10/10/02 04:32 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

They may not have needed passageways for repairs and adjustments, though. With the numerous machines and automatons they've constructed, it would not be unreasonable to suspect they may have build smaller constructs to maintain their systems. A miniature "repair sphere", for example, may live inside the pipes and conduits. Such a thought would also help explain why so many of their ruins and machines still run. If these repair constructs were powered in the same manner as the various other constructs, they could still be running inside the pipes and making needed repairs from the inside.

I would imagine the leaks and broken areas of pipe would reveal sections or zones in which these repair constructs were defunct or malfunctioned.

When the Dwemer still existed, adjustements coudl be made and repairs directed by giving orders to these constructs. the various glowing panels that seem to be a part of the piping system may not be only sources of light. Perhaps these "windows" were places repair contructs could be called to and given instruction?

This might also explain why the constructs in the ruins seem to reappear after a given time. The Dwemer guarded their secrets carefully, so it would not be unreasonable to again assume that the repair constructs were specifically directed not to affect repairs if there were non-Dwemer present; such a directive would prevent outsiders from witnessing the processes used to build and repair the automatons.

The Dwemer Cylinders and tubes seem likely containers for the power the Dwemer used. They are scattered around many ruins, and seem to serve no discernable purpose. Perhaps these, at some time, held the energy used to power the automatons?

In regards to the earlier questions about the Telvanni constructs, I have heard that they require soul gems to construct these things. Given their fondness for magicka, I would imagine the Telvanni power their versions of the constructs in the same manner that I power my magickal rings and weaponry--with the souls of defeated daedra. This might be Baladas's power source for his construct, as well.

The southern gentleman's use of an elixer to power the construct seems to imply that they can use a variety of power sources. Thus, if the Telvanni indeed use soul gems for power, this is still not likely to be the Dwemer's method.

This is speculation, as being a Breton I have avoided involvement with the Telvanni as much as possible, although I have spoken to some of their House and found manuscripts related to their rituals and methods.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 05:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Huntsman] 

An intriguing idea. The thought of repair constructs never occured to me, and yet that is almost certainly how the machinery is maintained. Of course the difficulty would be in trapping them. That, and the opening of further areas of the ruins would require more resources than possessed by any of us (with perhaps the exception of Lord Fyr, though I understand his present research commitments are pressing). The Imperial administration may be able to release the requisite funds to pay for blasting crews and specialist sorcery. But I fear the rumoured troubles with the succesion may lead to a reduction in the budget of the Imperial Archeological Commision on Vvardenfall. Until then we must content ourselves with the resources to hand. If any fellow scholar should find something of interest on their travels I would be eager to learn of it.
A great prize would be a sample of some of this liquid Evelian believes to be the power source.

Edited by Theodoret (10/10/02 05:20 PM)

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WormGodAdministrator
(Disciple)
10/10/02 05:27 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Nothing goes on in TES without an explanation. "I" hate mysteries that have no meaning, and so I preach and preach and preach. There is an answer for everything. Do I know about the centurions? Yep. Do I know of the Dwemer? Yep. Do I know of the Heart? Yep.

Just to let you all know, that we arent prepared to leave anyone hanging, so we wont.

Carry on now.

_____________________________________
gt noonan
bethsoft 3d art thing guy that does stuff
"too weird to live, and too rare to die."

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 05:37 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WormGod] 

[takes off pointy hat] Its great that you devs are going to develop the Dwemer material further, but please don't totally resolve the mystery. There would be nothing for us to ramble on about on the forum except release dates and what-weapon-we-really-really-need Besides, its fun to find something in the game that gets you thinking. Thats one of the things I like best in Morrowind, and judging by the number of posts on this thread I'm not alone. [replaces pointy hat] Now where did I put that spell book?

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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/10/02 06:31 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

There is like, 3 more pages of posts to read and I won't do it. But because I claim myself to be a Morrowind Lore-Master, I will explain about the blight, the heart, and Nerevar.

The Heart of Lorkhan is believed to be the heart of the god Lorkhan, which was cast down into Red Mountain as punishment for creating the mortal world. When the dwemer found it, Kagrenac believed it to be the heart of a god, and wanted to tap it's power. However, stealing power from a god is a serious crime to the cosmos, and thus is why the blight started.

Because the Dwemer, and in turn Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal, tapped the heart's power, it caused the blight to start. As the positive power flowed into those who used the heart, the Negative was rejected into the lands, causing the Blight. That's it on the blight, all I know.

As for the dwemer stealing power being a Sin. As you know, stealing power from a god is a serious folly, and that is why it is a sin. This s known well. However, I have done NUMEROUS research, and concluded on one, solid theory. As the Tribunal entered the Heart's chamber as they confronted the dwemer, Kagrenac attempted to use the heart to destroy his foes.

However, apparently he struck the heart to hard with the Sunder and Keening. This caused the heart to eminate a tone of deep bass and baritone, one of destruction. When he used Keening the flay the power into him, he instead drew the heart's destructive side, and destroyed him. Because all dwemer were attatched to the heart, they to lost their immortality, and turned to dust and bonemeal.

Anyway, although it's true Nerevar Reborn was supposed to help Dagoth Ur and his plan, Azura wished him otherwise. Although she still wanted the tribunal False gods cast down for their folly, Dagoth Ur had gone mad. Vivec shared her fews, and instead ASKED you to do this as well. It was because Dagoth Ur was not only hurting the imperial and outlanders, his Blight and madness also began hurting the dunmer, and so it had to be put to a stop.

Geez, that was one long post. See? I know a lot about morrowind, NOW GIVE ME MY GEEK AWARD!

If you can read this, than you are a stupid, mentally impaired, retarded, feeble-minded, slow, dopey, unintellegent imbecile.

Do you need me to clarify this more?

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B
(Curate)
10/10/02 06:37 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WormGod] 

In reply to:

Posted by WormGod:

Nothing goes on in TES without an explanation.



Ahh, yes, that is one of the many things that I love. If an explanation is not widely known, one is made-up, err, I mean *shared* with us on the spot.

Also, I must say that I am intrigued by this current line of thought. I will have to look into this further.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Nazz
(Curate)
10/10/02 06:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Yeah like the blight moth silk explanation for why clothes wouldn't wear and tear with use.

-----------------
Nazz the Curate
As the old die out, the young see a better way
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 06:44 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

Thats one theory Cjad, but if you take the time to explore this thread further you will find many others (thats not intended to be a flame). Until more sources of information are found concerning the battle of Red Mountain we won't know for sure. But whats your take on the current (sub)topic, the Dwemer constructs and their power source?

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B
(Curate)
10/10/02 06:50 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Nazz] 

In reply to:

Posted by Nazz:

Yeah like the blight moth silk explanation for why clothes wouldn't wear and tear with use.



Nazz, funny that you mentioned that...I make a reference to it in the soon to be released (If I get my butt in gear) MA Issue 4.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/10/02 06:54 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Much obliged, no offense or anything taken.

Anyway, through my studies and research of the ancient dwemer, along with exploring their ruins, I find this. I have reason to believe they powered all their machines with steam. You can see in how their work. Steam billows from their pumps, their gears move with each gasp. Their doors are pressurized with steam aswell. This may be because Vvardenfell is a volcanic island, and steam is easy to come by.

As for their lighting (They have electric light bulbs), I also think steam is involved. You see, all their lights seem to be flourescent or neon lights. They are attatched to the pipes that run along the walls, with in turn lead out from their machinery. Steam, which is made of water, is prone to magnetism, and together with heat it creates light. The glowing ring in these bulbs, I think, is made of some magnetic stone or metal.

I have also another theory. I have read in a book, and from other sources, that the dwemer found a way to create metal and machinery with no ability to erode or tarnish. They used it in their workings as to not have to repair anything if it ever broke. This is why all their machines and animunculi (Their robots) still function, thousands of years after they dissapeared.

I do believe my second theory to be more correct, but both have sensibility.

If you can read this, than you are a stupid, mentally impaired, retarded, feeble-minded, slow, dopey, unintellegent imbecile.

Do you need me to clarify this more?

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/10/02 07:14 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

Interesting thoughts. Many of our fellow scholars have come to the conclusion that the machines are powered by a combination of steam and magical power, but I am uncertain. What of Huntsman's repair constructs? One problem with the indestructible machine theory is that constructs can, fortunately, be destroyed but they seem to reassemble somehow. Another point of interest is how constructs distinguish friend from foe. According to our fellows a sorceror named Baladas has sold Dwemer constructs as servants in the past. It would be of great interest to learn how he changes their allegiance.

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gblues
(Initiate)
10/10/02 09:18 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

*steps out of character*

Cjad, you apparently are unaware that this board has multiple color schemes, because I can in fact read your message quite clearly and I fit none of those adjectives you have in your signature.

A related side note to everyone else--please do not make your text yellow to simulate bold. Yellow on a light background is excrutiating to read!

Stepping back into character..

I wonder if the Dwemer power source might be a bit more straightforward than we think? Using a technique from one of the Outer Realms (read: real-life), one could fabricate a self-contained turbine. Imagine a box with two chambers separated by the turbine itself.

* One chamber is enchanted with a Constant Effect fire spell, the other with a Constant Effect ice spell.
* The fire enchantment causes the water to boil, causing the water to become steam, which passes through the turbines into the other chamber.
* The ice spell chills the other chamber to the dew point, causing the water to condense and return to the fire chamber. The container is then sealed so that no water can leave the box.

And there you have it--a self-contained power cell that will run for a very, very long time.

Calath

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Kill quest bugs dead! Questfix Plugin

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Confused Lizard
(Layman)
10/10/02 09:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Ergh, it all sounds too much like nanotechnology to me, but that'd be silly given the setting, Pretty sure the Dwemer werent suppose to be that advanced, but when you toss in the possibility of magic, anything is possible I guess.

So if the automations can repair themselves, and the dwarves had the ability to make them long before they even thought of using the heart....well how could they possibly loose a war to the elves with that kind of weaponry to begin with?

Swords and magic are all well and good but....I cant see em doing much damage to something made out of iron and steel. Seem like it'd be akin to a knight attacking a modern day tank with a broadsword. Even if they could damage them, which they apparently did anyhow, wouldnt thier soldiers/armies eventually get tired while the automations simply kept repairing and attacking?

Also the part about Nerevar and Dagoth with just afew soldiers, attacking Red Moutain is kind of odd to me as well. Id think the enemy leader/HQ would be very well protected at all times. Even if you could sneak in, the King alone would probably have a very large group of guards or in this case, automations, around him for protection during a war, and seeing as my muchkin level 60 warrior char cant handle more then 10 of the blasted things without having to run away (Fun with the editor) Nevevar and Dagoth both, would have to be pretty damn powerful to slay the guards, automations, the king, and everything else, even with a small force...and it'd have to be really small if they could sneak in unnoticed seeing as the Dwarves had both technology and Magic at their disposal.

There appears to be no real info on what the guy was actually like in the current game but, it'd be nice to know more about Nerevar's abilites/stats, was he a magic user? a warrior? both? I only hope there'll be more info on him...er...or us rather, in the tribunal, or at the very least a little fake god arse-whippin'.

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/10/02 10:24 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

What if the constructs are powered by the souls or ghosts of dead Dwemer? This would fit with the theme in the area (Dunmer use ghosts to protect their tombs). It would explain why they are still working, and would also explain their 'intelligence'. It would also mesh with the Dwemer sacrificing their own kind to create constructs like the Numidium.

It doesn't explain why they would shut down when being transported away from Vvardenfell, unless it's a ruse to go back to the island and protect what they were created for.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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Raptormeat
(Diviner)
10/10/02 11:35 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

That's a really interesting point Striker.

Raptormeat

------------
Guildmaster: Forum Scholars Guild
Proprietor: Aldrien's Chalice Tavern- the only operational "pretend tavern Elder Scrolls concept site" on the web!
http://www.m0use.net

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 02:46 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Hmm interesting, Striker. A student can learn much from this lengthy lesson. I am glad I haven't left class just yet.

But if you will allow me to ponder yet again . . .

A Dwemer is sacrificed to power an automaton. Its soul is 'bound' into the device for 'control'. Steam is then used to do the 'heavy' work. In essence, you've got the soul as the brains and motivation, and you've got the steam as the muscles.

The Dwemer wish to be 'home'. They wish to be in a place they recognize, but they are sentient beings. Perhaps they're lonely. Or perhaps they're confused by the disappearance of their living brethren. Or maybe they're just jealous, who knows. But regardless, if they wished to be home, this could explain why the automatons stopped when leaving Vvardenfell. Perhaps the 'motivator', the soul, chose to stop working once it felt that it was too far away from that which was familiar. Or perhaps you take them too far from their point of 'death' or 'assimilation' and they stop on their own?

This could also explain why the automatons of the Rourken clan still worked. For if they did the same things (sacrificed their brethren to power their machines), those automatons would feel 'at home' and would operate accordingly. Has anyone yet tried to remove a Rourken automaton any great distance?

And also, perhaps these souls can be removed and replaced? Maybe some automatons ARE powered by soul gems with lesser Daedra. You can bind a lesser Daedra to yourself (as a piece of armor, so I've been instructed), why not 'bind' an automaton to yourself by placing a non Dwemer soul into the device?

Intriguing, intriguing.

-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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B
(Curate)
10/11/02 06:22 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

The soul idea seems plausible given the limited information that we do have at the moment. Here's the reference that Striker is commenting on, I think. The question is, should we take it literally or figuratively?

"Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world
."

Sacrificing the soul of a creature to power something is one thing. Sacrificing a mer (Dwemer) to get a soul is quite another, even if the mer was a willing participant. Seems quite controverial

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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kalniel
(Curate)
10/11/02 07:28 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

These theories that the Dwemer had little/no use for magika are interesting, but I think I agree with our learned Vvardenfell scholar that there is suggestion they used such things. Kagrenac's tools for example produce highly magical effects - did he have help in creating
them? Or are they of purely Dwemeric contruction?

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kalniel
(Curate)
10/11/02 07:57 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

"Sacrificing the soul of a creature to power something is one thing. Sacrificing a mer (Dwemer) to get a soul is quite another, even if the mer was a willing participant. Seems quite controverial"

True, but think on the Ghost gate. If the need is great enough...

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 10:13 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: kalniel] 

In a previous rambling of ideas, I had mentioned the idea of souls being the other peice to the Dwemer power puzzle, and now with this information, I must say, this seems highly plausable. As for the reason the machines shut down after a great distance, I could only think that perhaps the Dwemer souls are kept in this plane through some means of machinery and magic and once far away from that source, they lose hold and cannot function. But once they return, the souls are once again "filled" with power. I'm having trouble explaining what I am thinking, so I hope that made sense.
As for the reason they were defeated in battle despite the fact that they had these constructs...it makes a little more sense if in fact they are powered by Dwemer souls. To create a mass army of centurions would be to slaughter a mass of Dwemer. Although they seemed more than willing to sacrifice souls for a common racial good, I highly doubt self-genecide for their own protection would be acceptable. The notion doesn't hold much logic. Their resources were limited, then. A large army of other races could still march in, and attack repeatedly. Even though the constructs could perhaps rebuild themselves, they could probably not do it efficiently enough to maintain a solid defense (I know in my travels it took them days to repair). Their enemies would eventually win.
From this, knowing that they couldn't continue to forfiet soul after soul, Kagrenac decided that he would use one mass of souls to create Anumidum so that no more souls would be needed, because Anumidum would protect them and give them power. In essence, he sacrificed a large number of souls, to perhaps save an infinate amount in the future, and to protect his race and put them above all others.

This is all speculation based on one assumed fact, but it is a road just like any other. Please feel free to travel upon it and take any turns you feel may be neccesary.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 10:58 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

I have a couple of reservations concerning the soul theory. The use of the word 'sacrifice' in the source B kindly brought to our attention is ambiguous. Sacrifice does not necessarily mean ritual sacrifice. This could refer to Dwemer killed in accidents whilst constructing the Numidium or whilst on missions to locate rare materials, etc. My other reservation is that the allegiance of the constructs can be transfered. Of course it is possible that the sorcerors involved drive out the Dwemer soul before replacing it with something else. Huntsman does report that Telvani construct owners use the souls of Daedra as a power source. Also Lord Fyr remarks that the Last Dwarf creates constructs 'for fun'. Presumably these are not powered by Dwemer souls.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 11:12 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

When first read, it does just seem as though it means sacrificing Dwemer during construction, etc. But the way in which it mentions "Dwemer souls" makes me think again. Why not just "Dwemer" or "Dwemer lives?" As for how the Telvanni are able to control them...well, I know I can summon Daedra to do my bidding. If they do the same, insert them into soul gems, and insert the soul gems into the constructs, it seems logical that they would follow those who summoned the Daedra.

As for your last tought, I must say there may be the good possibility that not all Dwemer machines require a soul. Remember Lord Fyr also said that a man had used an elixir to get some to work. The Last Dwarf also does not remember what the source of Dwemer power was, yet he still builds some sort of constructs. Which by my logic means that not all Dwarven contructs require a soul, but perhaps powerful ones and ones that require control do.

On that thought, if the link between the telvanni masters and their constructs is the obedient Daedra, perhaps through the Dwemer "Calling," they are and were able to connect to the constructs that way. Perhaps the ghosts are still controlling these?

I have far too many ideas stacked upon on simple assumption.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 11:23 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Rather than the ghost in the machine, perhaps those Dwemer spirits one sometimes encounters in the ruins control the automata by a magical link. Certainly the Dwemer spirits I have had the misfortune to meet are very powerful, I just can't see them trading that in to become a scarab. This seems a neat solution to our problem (and so probably wrong) - automata are powered by some form of alchemical or magical power source and are controlled by Dwemer spirits.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 11:33 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Re-reading my post, I realize I said that wrong. What you have mentioned about the spirits controlling the automata is exactly what I meant. Magical link = Calling? Things do seem to fit. But then again, there are still a few loose ends that cannot be ignored. These Dwemer cylinders could be the container of a strange liquid and not a soul at all. But if they are souls, a lot of other facts seem to fit into place.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 11:38 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

" Lord Fyr's point about the power cells makes the Heart theory redundant I think. Has anyone retrieved one of these cells from the body of a construct? Also this entrepreneur responsible for the manufacture of mechanical servants is most interesting. Are the Telvani 'centurions' his handiwork? Is anyone aware of how he makes his constructions recognise their master? And do these constructs become deactivated when separated from their master by a great distance. I think the Dwemer constructs we find on Vvardenfell may be 'owned' by the Dwemer spirits they often seem to protect. "


Well no, not redundant, not by far. In fact it may even suppport my original speculation. We will see what we will see.





1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 11:56 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

" Rather than the ghost in the machine, perhaps those Dwemer spirits one sometimes encounters in the ruins control the automata by a magical link. Certainly the Dwemer spirits I have had the misfortune to meet are very powerful, I just can't see them trading that in to become a scarab. This seems a neat solution to our problem (and so probably wrong) - automata are powered by some form of alchemical or magical power source and are controlled by Dwemer spirits.

I see you have finaly come to a simular conclusion to what I had put forward before. I doubt very much the spirits are used as a power source, that just undermines the whole point of the dwemer 'ascending'. No, the 'ghosts' are eithor just that or a manifestation of dwemer checking in on their equipment.

That would make more sense to me. Now, as I sated earlier, they seem to be using the 'devices' to generate energy that powers their guardians. The question is what are their guardians guarding. It stands to reson that there is something important there. Whether or not theese machines are the power source to maintain the dwemers "pocket" is a matter of speculation. But, If I had to have a low maintenance and renewable source of energy it would probably look very simular to what the dwemer came up with. The devices are there for a reason, and I believe its for more than just a power source for their automitons.

All this supports my speculation on the dwemer using the heart to start (or make) the 'ascention' and use another source to maintain it. There could be something we are overlooking or have yet to discover, but with what imformation we have that is my opinion.

But then again we are left with what actualy happened to the dwemer.


])])]{





1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 12:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Having read all the posts I'm inclined to think that souls and the Heart were only needed for 'special cases', such as the Numidium, and the other constructs were built by more basic means. Of course I could be entirely wrong, so if you think that is the case Dracodrakonis I would be interested to hear your alternative theory

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 12:02 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Hmm...are you suggesting that these places are being guarded because the machinery there could possibly be sustaining the "link" or "place" where the Dwemer went? I really like that idea, and it sounds plausible.

The only problem I see with that is the fact that they'd be relying their entire race on the ability of their constructs and few spirits to guard the machinery and that it doesn't malfunction. Now granted, they may have had a lot of faith in their plan, and just because it would be risky doesn't mean they wouldn't go through with it.

This brings up question after question.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 12:04 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

That seems very logical to me, Theodoret.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 12:07 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Dracokonis, you spoke once more whilst I was lost in thought. Yes I think it is a possibilty that the machines and the constructs are still active for the reason you state. But some of the machines must of been destroyed by Red Mountain's eruptions (we find caved in passages, etc. in many Dwemer ruins) so why have the Dwemer not popped back out of this pocket dimension?

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 12:22 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Having read all the other 'post' you should already know what the (my) alternative theory is.

Re-read the before and after affects from using the heart....... it all ties in together. ( back a few pages or so)

I like the idea of the dwemer 'ghost' controlling the automatons but it just does not fit for some reason. It can not be dismissed but I would rather think that if the ghosts are there for another reason than just being ghosts that they are checking in on the functionality of their constructions et all. I'll give an observation where there were no spirits present in several locations and their construction operated just fine.

But back to the guardian power source for a moment, souls no, not as a power source for many reasons. One overwhelming one would be an observation by our curious captain. That does a pretty good job at eliminating souls as a power source. Now as a control mechanism, that is another subject entirely. (not that I would give strong support to it)


But, Still, while intellectually stimulating, all this theory and speculation is for naught until we know what actualy happened to the dwemer. But it should come in handy after the fact


1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 12:28 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Good observation about ghosts being in some areas and not others. Perhaps the ghosts have nothing to do with anything besides being angry, dead Dwemer. But where's the fun in that?

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 12:29 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

I did read that post. My apologies, I should have said that I would be interested to hear you develop your hypothesis. (Which you have since done).
If the ghosts are in fact technicians returning from their pocket dimension to carry out maintenance, I wonder why they are so hostile. I would expect that from ghosts, but not powerful transdimensional beings. It is a pity as I would very much like to talk to them.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 12:30 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Ah, the dangers of conversation through the eithor

There are many locations spread through-out Vvardenfell, then who is to say they have not already created yet another source of power at whatever location they are at. I my self can see the dangers of relying on a single source of power. Could be that their machines have already served their purpose...... and we only get the occasional nostalgic visitor.

It could be interesting to find out what happens if all their machines are shut down. Everywhere.







1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 12:34 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Thank you and, Yes, I see your point and I thought about that myself, one of those unexplained questions hovering in the back of my mind.

I just touched on this with a bit more speculation, it all comes down to what realy happed to them, then some of this could all start making some sense.


1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 12:38 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Yes, that is really the root of everything. And to explain what happened to them, we have to know how they used the tools and what that combination meant. A while back, Lord Fyr quite correctly stated that the "heart" of the matter (excuse my pun) is with the tools and their use.

Until we know, we don't.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 01:14 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Hmmm, but is the Heart really at the heart of everything? I just wonder if Kagrenac's work was'nt just a development of earlier work on constructs and machines. Kagrenac appears to have worked in secret and yet machines and constructs appear to be ubiquitous in Dwemer society. If all such engines were connected to the Heart how could the Dwemer King not have known what Kagrenac was up to? Also, the Hammerfall clan do not appear to have been 'in on' Kagrenac's plan and yet they still possess constructs and engines. Furthermore, according to the Nordic account of Red Mountain Dagoth Ur possessed some Dwemer constructs, presumably sold to him by the Dwemer. Of course we must take the Nordic account with a huge pinch of salt, but Dagoth Ur certainly seemed familiar with Dwemer technology (familiar enough to set up shop in the main Dwemer fortresses atop Red Mountain).

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 01:18 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

So where do we stand........ need to combine some of this specualation

1) The Heart, I've already made my observations on using the heart as a power source and the reslults of it. This being Dagoth Ur, The Tribunal and the our subject for debate the Dwemer...... oh and the rest of the sixth house. The Dwemer have had the most experience and would posses a bit of impressive lore concerning the use of the heart, I'm sure they were aware of the dangers (but then they could have ignored it and just went poof). The Heart was used as a power source to propel them into whatever state of being they are now in. That much is not in question.

2) Ok, now if the Dwemer were succesful in their endevor they would need another source of power (knowing the dangers of the heart). I'll use the example of the Tribunal and the power of faith that sustained them beyond their severance from the heart. I think the use of their devices would be enough to sustain them, while not enough to make the transition. I'lll site that theese devices do seem to transimit energy and covers the entire area of Vvardenfell (that in itself is a remarkable feet). They devices may be two-fold, provide energy for the guardians and provide energy to maintain whatever reality the dwemer are in........... at least for a time.

3) Realy Wild Speculation. Now there is also the danger of having a power source located in another reality. For a time it would suffice to have your guardians and just check in on them from time to time. But you would need to have a source of power in your own reality. That might have been the plan. ( and they have had a considerable ammount of time to create something else if this is the case).

4) Enter the 'ghosts'. Ok what is the deal with them, were they left behind, intentionaly or unintentionaly? Are they spiriits from a time before the Dwemer disapearce? Are they Manifestations of the Dwemer from whatever existance they are now in into our own reality?
This comes down to what happed to the Dwemer but could provide insight if we could only speak to one of them, I have tried this myself and as I said before they don't seem to be very talkative. Spirits As a power source for the Automitons, not very likely, as a control, can not be dismissed...... The guardians were around for quite some time and wera an early creation by the Dwemer. Could the Dwemer control them, Yes I think so, but as I pointed out they seem to be able to act on their own well enough.

Ok, granted there are other considerations and some have been touched on. All and all, we are left with two things the Heart and the Tools it is at the begining of all this and critical in understanding the events after the fact. Not to mention the events at Red mountain itself.

Then there is this "Big Round Dwarven Thingy" I've caught wind of. Very little information on this but could provide some insight. I definately would need to know more about it before putting any speculation forward, but I suspect it is the "something" we have not discovered yet and it could change everything. Just a feeling.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 01:43 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Very nice summary, indeed. One quick point relating to Theodoret's post before I forget: if Kagrenac was working secretly, how could he have sacrificed so many "Dwemer souls?" I don't think we really know how secret his work with the Heart was.


I have similar feelings...there seems to be one or two very important pieces that have not been revealed to us. Everything else revolves around those pieces. I believe one of those pieces is the explanation of Dwemer cylinders and what was contained in them. We know: Constructs may have been powered by these, constructs can be made by Yagrum(to what extent, we don't know, probably little...perhaps Lord Fyr can expand on what he's seen?), that someone was able to use an elixir to power some (are there any unusual properties of illegal elixirs in Vvardenfell?), and that the Telvanni use the souls of Daedra. These all seem very, very different sources...but are they really?

Unfortunately, even these large pieces still revolve around the Heart and the tools in the end. If we know the tools and Heart, we know where the Dwemer went, and then we can deduce the power source needed to maintain their presence there (if indeed that's the case). Like a child smelling a Comberry pie on the perch of a second story window, we can smell and wander all around house in search of the treat, but until we discover the stairs or someone brings it down for us, it will always be out of reach.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 01:49 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Then let us hope the staircase resides with Sotha Sil
Neat summary by the way Dracodrakonis, might save more casual contributors the task of reading through 19 pages of posts (although it is a pleasant task).

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Yagrum Bagarn
(Layman)
10/11/02 03:28 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

It makes me happy to see that so many are devoted to unlocking the truth of the Dwemer! I was quite intrigued to pay a visit to this gathering of minds once Master Fyr informed me of such an event. I have read through the gathered notes in hopes that something would possiblt spark a glint of my long lost knowlege. Some seems quite possible, but none can bring forth my past memory.

I can, however, delve on the topic of the constructs. Given I have the right parts, I can create and repair several different variations. Master Fyr thinks it may aid me in my sickness to keep my mind on something that I know and appreciate doing. The idea of these canisters powering the constructs is quite true. The contents of the canisters still blanks in my mind however. How I long to remember! Powering my personal constructs, Master Fyr has concocted a fluid to fill the canisters. The fluid may only last up to a few days, depending on the construct and their consumption. I am quite sure this is not what these canisters held at one time though. The idea of spirits of the Dwemer filling these canisters is somewhat appauling. That rings out necromancy of sorts and we Dwemer were all too uncaring for that art. I also find it difficult believing that this Heart could power such devices. It is not impossible, but I do not think Kagrenac's Plan involved the constructs, given the Dwemer had constructs long before the Heart was taken in.

There must be a fuel source, given the use of steam, perhaps accompanied by some sort of lasting enchantment. For the life of me, if I could only recall! It would be ever so helpful knowing. I would no longer have to have Uupse refilling my machina centurion chair.

I shall return again to see how this progresses. I must return to my quarters to have some of my sores tended to. This blasted sickness is for the Daedra!

Yagrum Bagarn

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evelian
(Adept)
10/11/02 03:37 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yagrum Bagarn] 

Splendid! Your presence and knowledge is much more than welcome here, Yagrum.

At least I can lay the idea of souls to rest.

"a fuel source, given the use of steam, perhaps accompanied by some sort of lasting enchantment" - hmm...it is definately a fuel. Which would explain how someone would be able to temporarily power the machines with an elixir. If Lord Fyr could stop by and reveal to us what he uses to make this fluid. I think we are now positive the Heart itself is having no effect on the current Dwemer machines, as those were designed before the tapping of the heart.

I wish you well, Yagrum, and perhaps someday you will be able recall the past that has eluded us. It was nice to see you out for some fresh air for once.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Confused Lizard
(Novice)
10/11/02 04:53 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

So that rules out the soul-binding idea, or any other form of necromancy. But that brings back one of my other questions..

If Yagrum by himself, and in his... state, my apologies, can create as well as repair automations, then the mind boggles when you think about what an entire society of Dwemer could turn out during a time of war. Admitedly most of the automations found today dont seem very war esque but who says we've seen everything they've made so far?

The Dwemer were around for a very long time before the actions at Red moutains, so I can only assume they would have a very very large force of these creations already. Also that the Dwemer, like every other smooth skin race (read: monkeys), had some interest in both war and conquest. Naturally they would apply some of their automation technology to the art that is war as well I would think.

Which again brings me to,

How could they possible loose a war to the likes of the elves? Even if the automations did take the time, even days to repair, they odds would still lean very much in favor of the Dwemer, but by all accounts the Elves and Dwemer were at something close to a stand still before Nerevar and Dagoth set out for Red moutain, were they not? Admitedly the current info would tend to be abit biased towards that of the elves I suppose. Perhaps the situation was more dire for the elves then they let on, which could explain Nerevar's brave, but foolish, actions at Red moutain.

Unless we are to believe, the Dwemer were peace oriented and had no interests in neither war, nor conquest. Which seems very unlikely and would make them quite rare among all the smoothskins, given the nature of all mer in general.

Still if one could take this "infinite" energy supply that had, and use it towards something mundane, but needed, like perhaps a portable light source, I...er...that is, one could become quite wealthy indeed. Mind you, the candle markers wouldnt be too happy.

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Reubin Halfmoon
(Layman)
10/11/02 05:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

Confused Lizard indead.

If you so much as insinuate again that my people are some how related to monkeys I will make you wish you were slaving away in the glass mines at Red Mountain.
As for the power of the anuminculi they are quite weak against magika of any kind. My people as you should know are very inclined to the powers of the school of destruction which can make short work of all but the most powerful of Dwemer constructs. And as for the need for conquest you must be confusing mer with man. Other than the fabled Maormer none of the races of mer have tried to conquer anyone in a long time.

I AM Indoril Halfmoon

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Confused Lizard
(Novice)
10/11/02 06:40 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Reubin Halfmoon] 

Ahh typical elf, boastful as always. Just like the chittering apes they mimic. Oh well, as much as can be expected from warmbloods.

Mighty are the mer when in groups they raid the villages full of females, hatchlings, and elders, but cower do they when facing an opponent not hindered by the cry of their young, nor presence of superior odds. Such is life I suppose. But if living in the marsh has taught my people anything, its how to adapt. Be weary my ape friend, for while some suffer the indinaties placed upon them, others watch and learn. In time it will be your race that is preyed upon, for even while many of our kind wish nothing more then to live unhindered as we once did, some learn from the races of the smoothskin and warmblood. We learn how to manipulate and control, how to abuse and destory and most of all, how to protect our ''honor'' through lies and deceit. Oh yes some learn very well.

With the coming change of the emperor and the fall of both your false gods and madden kings it shall be interesting to see how you ''mer'' deal with an enemy on equal footing, something that should be new to your kind.

Perhaps I was wrong in my judgment, and truly I do apologize if I somehow linked the race of man, with that of the mer....For at the very least man does not pretend to be both noble and honorable while at the same time stealing your young, and murdering your old.

I expect you're right about the ''mer'' waging war, for as I recall they all seem to have been defeated by the empire of man, and have been at its mercy eversince. Quite amusing when you think about it, for a race that prides themself on some type of selt appointed superiority, they themselves are nothing more then slaves to the empire, even if only more subtle. Perhaps the ''mer'' may have found a race more skilled in the arts of deceit and trickery then themselves.

Sometimes I wonder if perhaps the Dwemer didnt just tire of hearing the constant boastful and arogant claims of the rest of the mer, and simple remove themselves to someplace where they could get some bloody peace and quiet for a change.

Self delusions aside, this is not the topic at hand my dear tree swinging, flea eating, dung tossing friend.

Most of the ''common'' mer would have quite a difficult time when even one automation alone can prove quite difficult, whatever your claims may be. Even the mighty could not hope to take on more then 5 to 10 at one time and live. Not to mention these automations did not fight alone, the dwemer themselves were no strangers to combat as Im lead to believe.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 06:58 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

I have some thoughts on the nature of the Dwemer war machine. From my own forays into Dwemer ruins I find the most common war-item is not a type of construct, but in fact the humble short sword. The next most common weapon is the spear followed by mace and axe. So I think the dwemer armies consisted mainly of heavily armoured (I do in fact possess two suits of such armour) foot soldiers armed with short sword and spear. I suspect maces and axes were reserved for nobility or officers. I imagine such troops were quite effective, but bear in mind that many accounts suggest the Dwemer were outnumbered by the Chimer. I think constructs were more likely used as auxillaries or as shock troops.
I am delighted that Yagrum Bagarn has found the time to partake of our little discussion. With the Heart and dwemer souls discounted as possible power sources I believe the floor is open.

Edited by Theodoret (10/11/02 07:00 PM)

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 07:11 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yagrum Bagarn] 

Nice to speak with you again. Glad to see you up and about, but aren't you still contagious ? I know I'm no longer affected by the 'divine disease' but everybody else..................

By the way I have some enchanted Items that could be of use to Mr D. While they can not cure corpus they can counter some of the less desirable affecs of this divine affliction. I used this one ring to hault the progress entirely until Mr. Fyr could cure me. Could be of use to you. I'll bring it over myself, I have to clear out a former 6th house base near you, yet again, so I'll be in that area.

But anyway, the Canisters, eh. Well I have dissasebled more than a few of these constructs and have been unable to locate a power source. Where might theese canisters be located on the constructs. I still have a few Automitons that are not ready for the scrap pile yet. If I could locate a canister within one and get some idea of the contents........... but still there is the matter of our curious captains observations. Perhaps the canisters contain a material that is reactive to power emisions from theese mysterious steam devices. Or even the canisters themselves. Even a small amout of would be enough to determine somewhat the nature of this material(s) is even if we could not recognize what the material is.

Now I have noticed some vats of green liquid "stuff", but it seems to be more of a lubricant than anything else. I could procure some for you easily enough and a few canisters to boot. And there are a few sealed vats that I can only assume are some sort of storage devices for excess energy or maybe play a part in producing energy in some way. I have meant to get around to taking one appart but with all this business with the Tribunal AND chaseing down Ash and Corpus 'monsters' takes up a lot of my time.

Now how about a translation of two particular books, there is a key in them somewhere to understanding what happened.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 07:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

Not to get involved with any racial squables, ummm, who invaded Tamreil ? And as part of what army ? Hummmmm.

Now do keep in mind that our lizard friends have done their part since being stranded here........ I have my Argonian friends and on a One-to-One basis we get along very well........ but as as society I think we all have a long way to go....... Oh, and keep calling us monkies and I have a few Lizard buddies of mine who will take it personal, even if I don't, and they are likely to rip your scales off you before I could even think about stopping them.

P.S. They don't call me the Dragon Born because I was born under the Imperial banner .................or so some say

Back to our regularly scheaduled debate..............................




1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 09:10 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Gentlemen please! Racial abuse is hardly what one would expect from scholars. We have enough on our hands trying to get to grips with the disappearance of the Dwarves without having to consider the disappearance of the Argonians or the Dunmer.
I believe there are two areas of discussion currently active - The source of power for Dwemer constructs, and possible military tactics of the Dwemer. I think any alchemical contributions regarding the use of elixirs as sources of magical or thermal energy would be most useful. Of course if there are findings to be reported from recent archaeological expeditions they too would be very welcome.

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/11/02 09:16 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Well, after researching several cylinders and numerous ruins, I was able to come to a possible conclusion. When exploring my first Dwemer ruin, Arkngthand, I discovered a Dwemer Cylinder attached quite thouroughly to a still working device. I was able to pry the object off without damaging the machine, but it is curious...No cylinders or tubes or any sort of device has been discovered within the animunculi, yet at least one can be traced back to a mysterious device. It is also my duty to note a small, but possibly interesting fact. Most of the Dwemer ruins accross Vvardenfell are located in either Molag Amur, or the Ashlands, both surrounding the crater of Red Mountain which also contains numerous Dwemer settlements. This leads me to believe that much of the general activity within the ruins is steam driven, but the steam energy is used for something else...powering the animunculi? keeping the electricity on? keeping wherever the Dwemer went able to be lived in? I don't know the answers, but intend to find out =)

Open your eyes

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James Destroyer
(Initiate)
10/11/02 09:27 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

Dwemer... Dwemer... Dwemer...
To me, it really wouldn't make much sense if the still-working machines are their source of power wherever they're at.
I don't know, some of these things just don't fit together right. These machines... are machines. And being machines, are subject to manipulation or breaking down, right? I mean, I know the game wouldn't let the PC mess with any of the Dwemer machines.
But... I was just trying to think of what I would do. I mean, I wouldn't build these machines to keep me in this other realm, cuz anyone could come along and disrupt these machines. Whether with knowledge or a big hammer (or a wrench)
But why are these machines still running? To what purpose do they serve? One would think that they would have to be supplying ?energy? to somewhere.
But the dwemer... I don't know, lost my train of thought. I'll get back to this later.

----------------------------------
Write that down...

Edited by James Destroyer (10/11/02 09:28 PM)

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tegger
(Curate)
10/11/02 09:51 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: James Destroyer] 

I've been following this discourse since its beginning, but I don't recall if someone already referred to the following text from the book "Chimarvamidium" (excerpt from the publisher's note section). I suspect it's already been quoted, but in light of this most recent turn of discussion, perhaps it's worth another look.

In reply to:

In a rare scholarly moment, Marobar Sul leaves a few pieces of the original story intact, such as parts of the original line in Aldmeris, "A Dwemer of eight can create a golem, but an eight of Dwemer can become one." [Emphasis mine]

Another aspect of this legend that scholars like myself find interesting is the mention of "the Calling." In this legend and in others, there is a suggestion that the Dwemer race as a whole had some sort of silent and magickal communication. There are records of the Psijic Order which suggest they, too, share this secret. Whatever the case, there are no documented spells of "calling." The Cyrodiil historian Borgusilus Malier first proposed this as a solution to the disappearance of the Dwemer. He theorized that in 1E 668, the Dwemer enclaves were called together by one of their powerful philosopher-sorcerers ("Kagrnak" in some documents) to embark on a great journey, one of such sublime profundity that they abandoned all their cities and lands to join the quest to foreign climes as an entire culture.




)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
I was once the world's greatest everything. Then I woke up. ~ TSL

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Confused Lizard
(Novice)
10/11/02 10:00 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

chitter chitter chitter......Ahem anyway,

From my trials in alchemy, Ive yet to see, or for that matter, hear of any reagent that could lead to something like this ''elixir''. While true some reagents can provide some magicial effects, most, if not all are short in duration and none so far lend themselves to any type of energy, let alone ''infinite'' amounts of it.

Perhaps when combined with the magical arts of enchanting, a more deseriable effect can be reached, but combining the two arts is far behond my current talents. Also such actions would stem close to necromancy once again, as the entire art of enchantment is based around the summoning and binding of souls, is it not?

It would be interesting to learn what exactly the before mentioned smoothskin used to make his version of the elixer with, but i doubt he would willingly share his findings with anyone, seeing as there is such a potential for the profit you warmbloods so often desire.

Still I often wonder about the machines that are almost always found in every Dwemer ruin, they seem to serve no purpose what so ever that I can see, but like the automations, are still running thousands of years later. Im sure they figure in somewhere, or may just be parts of another riddle all together.

Perhaps in the coming weeks, the powers that be will see fit to grant us the knowledge on how to combine the two arts, if this was, as we are led to believe, how the Dwemer powered their own devices.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 10:00 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

The Dwemer cylinder you found attached to an engine in Arkngthand; did it appear to be powering the device or did the engine appear to have manufactured/refilled the cylinder? This is a most interesting find.

With regards the location of Dwemer holds, many scholars believe the Dwarven engines run on steam generated by geothermal means. Of course this may not be the only explanation for the location of holds near lava fields, but it seems the most plausible.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 10:05 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

I am always somewhat suspicious of Marobar Sul as a source. It is difficult to know how much of his tales are originally Dwemer, and how much his own invention. However the Calling may be an important part of the puzzle, and I agree that it deserves more scrutiny.

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tegger
(Curate)
10/11/02 10:13 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

I agree that Marobar Sul may not be the most reliable source. However, the quote is from the book's publisher, who is supposedly a good deal more knowledgable. Note his remark about Sul's "rare scholarly moment" in the first quoted paragraph. It seems to suggest that at least that portion of "Chimarvamidium" *might* be accurate.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
I was once the world's greatest everything. Then I woke up. ~ TSL

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 10:26 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

What do you think the "eight of Dwemer can become one" bit means? Yagrum Bagarn (a page or two previously) has poured cold water over the soul-powered machines theory, so it can't refer to the sacrifice of eight Dwemer.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/11/02 11:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

"eight of Dwemer can become one"

I think he was referring to his impersonation of a animunculi and that perhaps only eight dwemer could do this.

Could be wrong, maybe the entire dwemer race were 'fused' with their automatons. We do see this happening with Numidium (being controlled/powered by a battlemages heart) and attempted with the second Numidium (with the Heart of Lorkhan).

I think it is preposterous but weirder things have happened, the entire dwemer civilization could have 'disappeared' under our noses only to be under our noses. I guess this could fall under the Dwemer 'controlling' the Automatons, however unlikely I think it is we can not dismiss it. It would answer some puzzles though......

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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tegger
(Curate)
10/11/02 11:03 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

I really don't know what it means (I tend to doubt it's a literal meaning), but I never really subscribed to the idea of individual souls powering the machines; not in the traditional sense, anyway. My thoughts were more along the lines of some sort of metaphysically bound "energy" that didn't necessarily require death to use. One person might call it a magical force, another might call it a collection of a "portion of souls," and yet another might call it a heretofore undiscovered energy source.

As for the Dwemer ghosts mentioned earlier, my own thoughts tend toward the idea that they've always existed just as ghosts of other races exist. That is, I've never seen good evidence to connect them to the Disappearance or to machine-maintenance. I think the Disappearance wouldn't have affected any Dwemer who died prior to the event, and that the ghosts merely represent those long-dead Dwemer.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
I was once the world's greatest everything. Then I woke up. ~ TSL

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/11/02 11:14 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

"I think he was referring to his impersonation of a animunculi and that perhaps only eight dwemer could do this." Ha! I'd like to see that. Maybe you and Divayth's wives could help him out
Tegger - Do you think the Calling has something to do with how Dwemer controlled their animunculi? Or are we all being led up a blind alley with this soul/spiritual link stuff and the answer is far more prosaic?

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tegger
(Curate)
10/11/02 11:40 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Re: "Or are we all being led up a blind alley with this soul/spiritual link stuff and the answer is far more prosaic?"

I wouldn't be surprised. But it's fun to speculate, and I once read a saying that I still love: "Cogitate, else vegetate."

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
I was once the world's greatest everything. Then I woke up. ~ TSL

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/12/02 02:38 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

You can Ha all you want . This, I believe, is precisely what this is in reference to, keep in mind the translation (room for errors) and that the early Dunmer were not exactly all that savvy when it came to Dwemer constructs.

So it could go like this, a Dwemer of 8(years) can build one but there are only 8 dwemer who can be(impersonate) one.

........... and sorry I don't do the Robo twist ...... well one of his 'daughters' was kinda cute for a Dunmer........... I'd have to think about it

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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KaliMagdalene
(Initiate)
10/12/02 05:25 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Dracodrakonis:

"I think he was referring to his impersonation of a animunculi and that perhaps only eight dwemer could do this. "

For reference:

"A dwemer of eight can create a golem, but only an eight of dwemer can become one."

What I believe this means is "only a very skilled dwemer can impersonate a golem."

I think this because the phrase is ". . . but only an eight of dwemer . . ." That's definitely singular, and referring directly to the one dwemer in Chimarvamidium who *does* impersonate a golem, and is presented as quite puissant in already impressive dwemer crafts.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/12/02 01:13 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

"I wouldn't be surprised. But it's fun to speculate, and I once read a saying that I still love: "Cogitate, else vegetate." "
Something else to cogitate on - How do the lights work, and who changes the bulbs?

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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/12/02 05:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Somehow, I think the Dwemer Animunculi (Centurians) are something like the Dragoons from Starcraft. The Dragoons are spider-like machines used by the advanced alien race of Protoss, and to power them they put the minds of dead warriors in them. Their soul and psi energy powers the dragoon.

I'm thinking maybe when a Dwemer dies, it's soul is placed into the machine to power it as protection. This way, when they fought with the Chimer (Now Dunmer) they would relatively suffer no loss of soldiers as they simply replaced them with a Centurian.

If you can read this, than you are a stupid, mentally impaired, retarded, feeble-minded, slow, dopey, unintellegent imbecile.

Do you need me to clarify this more?

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/12/02 07:27 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Well, i was able to pry off the cylinder without causing the machine to stop, so i would assume that the machine was affecting it, and not vice versa. I have not seen this phenomenon again though, and have made a point to visit as many Dwemer ruins I can. There are several tubes, cylinders and 'coherers' lying about unused, but i have only encountered something attached to a machine with such purpose. I shall continue my investigations, though i fear I will not discover much more that has been already said.

Open your eyes

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
10/13/02 10:31 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

A creepy thing I noticed about Spider Centurions is that they, unlike the Sphere or Steam Centurions, have almost organic bodies. They look metallic, but their "bubbles" seem to be breating when they're alive.

Also, Spider Centurions can be repaired, so we at least know that much about them. There's one protecting the Thieves' Guild in Ald'Ruhn, and Baladas Dervani has a shock centurion in his tower. I'm rather surprised Divayth Fyr doesn't have a small army of centurions guarding the Corprusium.

Another detail: while Centurions cannot be soultrapped, Sphere Centurions can still be summoned. You learn that when you steal Secrets of Dwemer Animculi from the Galoum Deus ruins. Maybe the Centurions aren't machines at all, but.... things tapped from a different plane. And if so, perhaps there are Dwemer still alive, or at least Sotha Sil, to pull the summoned centurions' strings.

Hopefully we'll find out in Tribunal. And hopefully we'll learn the origins of the Fabricants.

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Huntsman
(Acolyte)
10/13/02 01:07 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

This adventurer brings up a good point. It has been many weeks since I investigated that blood-suckers lair, Galom Deaus, and I had forgotten the book I recovered there.

How does one summona created creature? I have not used this magic myself, does it involve some sort of construction process? If it is summoned, how? Are they called from the nearest ruin? Might this be somethig similar to a recall of intervention spell that brings the nearest sphere?

This, is seems, is a mystery all on it's own. The path to knowledge seems fraught with fog and darkness concerning the Dwemer. There seems to be little left that is both reliable and descriptive; those detailed accounts we do have conflict with one another, and the accounts that agree tend to be unreliable or propaganda based.

Which reminds me, does anyone recall Baladas's words on the Dwemer? I spoke with him recently, and his take was that the time of the dissappearance was coincidence; the Dwemer had been bringing themselves closer and closer to "ascendence" in stages, and happened to complete the process at the time of the battle. I find this explanation lacking, but we have all assumed that the dissappearance was somehow directly connected with the battle. What if it was something unrelated? Coincidence?

It seems we are not confused from a lack of knowledge, but an overabundance of it. Until we get guidance ona direction to take, I fear we may be unable to answer this question.

I can only hope such guidance will come soon from the trips to Almalexia many of us have planned. I believe that most of us also plan to seek out Sotha Sil..perhaps he may be able to shed some light on this subject. Of course, I have my doubts that any of the walking "gods" will be relaible sources, perhaps kernals of truth can be gleaned from their chaff.

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Confused Lizard
(Novice)
10/13/02 02:10 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

While I dont bother much with the art of conjuration, prefering a more direct route myself, I believe the creatures are 'pulled' from the plane of oblivion by the summor's will.

Interesting idea about the Centurion summon, cant say I ever gave it much thought myself, definitely something to think about. Though given the nature of the spell, I find it hard to believe it works like the other summons, unless there are actually Dwemer elements in oblivion already, Id would also think Vivec could easily sense them there of all places.

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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/13/02 03:39 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Confused Lizard] 

Maybe the Dwemer's spirits were lost to Oblivion around the time they dissapeared. Anyway, the one thing I do know is that the Dwemer machinery weren't to hard to construct. As with the Telvanni stronghold, you can have your own centurian spheres guarding it's perimeter, and a Centurian guarding the front entrance.

This shows they weren't to complicated if a regular person could construct them. This concludes they were easy to mass produce, and may have been made in the hundereds or thousands. This, I think, disproves the Dwemer Soul Power theory. Because if the animunculi required a soul to power them, than they would have to be produced at the same ratio as the dwemer death rate.

"You killed the shop teacher. You killed him. Who killed the shop teacher? I didn't kill the shop teacher, you killed the shop teacher. You killed the shop teacher...You killed him!"

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/13/02 05:54 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

What must be taken into thought though is that maybe it wasn't a 1:1 ratio, (one dwemer soul per construct) but in fact one dwemer 'spirit' or soul was able to control hundreds, maybe even thousands of constructs. That might also explain the scarcity of the dwemer ghosts as well, if one could command many, then only a few would be needed to keep the entire population of constructs activated and guarding. Just something to think about =)

Open your eyes

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/13/02 11:50 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

If ghosts have anything at all to do with centurions it is certainly as commanders rather than power sources. Yagrum Bagarn has already dismissed the suggestion that the power source for constructs is Dwemer souls (apparently the Dwemer were even less keen on necromancy than the Dunmer), hence the renewed interest in the cylinders found in many Dwemer strongholds. Tegger and Evelian have suggested earlier that control may be connected to the Calling, a psychic link which some sources claim existed between all the Dwemer, allowing them to comunicate with one another. Perhaps the enchanters who appear to be able to bind constructs into servitude with the Telvani usurp this link.
Whether the ghosts really are ghosts or are in fact transdimensional vistors as Dracodrakonis suggests is open to debate.
One thing which would be very useful to further study in the field of Dwemer construct control would be to discover the secret methods by which enchanters ensnare and bind (or summon) constructs. More information concerning this book of Centurion summoning would be most useful.
[steps out of character] I was thinking, would'nt it be cool to have a Vvardenfell Archeological Association mod. A headquarters full of beard-stroking scholars and plenty of missions to explore ruins in search of artifacts. My skills as a modder are almost non-existent however

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/14/02 11:56 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Well, if I remember correctly, I discovered an ancient looking book called "The Secrets of Dwemer Animunculi" and within it contained very detailed instructions on the construction of a Centurion Sphere, though besides foot notes, the book was without text. But what is interesting is that I found it while tentatively (ack, sp?) exploring the Vampire infested ruin of Galom Daeus, which was one of the larger ruins I have come across. What is interesting to consider though, as far as the "summoning" of a construct, is that maybe the constructs (taking a big leap here, but bear with me.) The constructs are actually from wherever the Dwemer went. I mean, think about it, the Dwemer must have been using Centurions as warriors, and then when all the Dwemer vanished, (basing this off assumptions) the constructs remained to...what? continue fighting till they were destroyed, or what if the constructs vanished along with the Dwemer? And those left inside ruins now are like the ghosts, only much more physical. Or, to look at it another way, what if the ghosts managed to create the constructs left using the still functioning machines? It is something to think about.
[steps out of character, sorta =P]Ok, well I think that the Archeological Society would be incredibly fun to create, if anyone is planning on it, count me in for ideas ;-)

Open your eyes

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/14/02 01:15 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Summoning ?

Where do you get that from, summon centurions. The Centurions provided for protection of my 'stronghold' were built using plans from a book. Where is the summoning coming from. I have yet to see anyone be able to summon any Automaton.

And what, nobody but the Dwemer were capable of building Animalculi ? I beg to differ. I'll cite a book that is all too easy to overlook, Fire and Faith. Read it, it has stunning implications.

Seems that the Telvanni are rubbing off on me, I leave you to find out for yourself, the information is there read it.


1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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tegger
(Disciple)
10/14/02 01:24 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Opening a certain book (or was it a scroll?) in the game will give you a spell to summon centurions. That's likely what Star Boi was referring to. I've had it before, but I never used the spell, myself (that particular character wasn't a strong conjurer).

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
He rarely writes at any time
Without a line of one more rhyme
Than any other lyric brother. ~ TSL (from "Bluish Pink")

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/14/02 03:03 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

*stepping ooc*

Yea it was the book Secrets of the Dwemer Animalculi, Summon Centurion Sphere, I think it was intended that you summon one of your own 'guards' but it does cause a bit of a conundrum in this little debate. I was hoping to get a little official input on the matter. It could take this discussion in a whole new direction. But again I think this is how they handled you having centurion guards and be able to use them.

Yo !! Devs ! You guys still following this ?


* stepping back ic *

We telvanni can build guardians and call on them in need, we do not actualy summon them. You underestimate our abilities, I can provide no further insight on this particular subject.


1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/14/02 04:46 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Thankyou for the information on the book Star Boi et al.
I wonder if the Vampires have any more of these books. I think I shall have to send the warrior Antonius Flavius to retrieve one (Vampires are too much for this old scholar - when in doubt get a tank).
I have also heard that the master of Tel Vos keeps a museum of Dwemer artifacts. Does anyone know whether this would be worth a visit? Tel Vos is a long way from Ald Ruhn so I don't want to go all that way just to see a few bits of Dwemer armour.

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/15/02 02:16 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Well, I was recently wandering about trying to find the services tower and stumbled upon Master Aryon's Dwemer museum. It is rather fascinating, he has a fairly large collection of Dwemer armor and weapons, and many, many schematics and plans hung on the walls. But th emost interesting thing he had was a vaguely tamed Steam Centurion, which was still functioning, but is apparently broken, and won't attack the visitors. It was very educational, though even after gaining permission to examine the Centurion, I found no traces of any cylinders or mode of power. Ah well, guess it's back to exploring Dwmeer ruins =)

Open your eyes

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evelian
(Adept)
10/15/02 09:55 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

I take a short trip to Gnisis to visit my grandmother, and come back to find so much discussed! I believe what Dracodrakonis is hinting at is the idea that reading this book gives you the ability to construct a centurion. [slips into another dimension] I think that perhaps the devs wanted a way in which you could read a book and learn to build your own centurion. Obviously this book doesn't give US actual details, but we assume our character knows them. The only logical way to make this happen with the game physics is to "summon" it. They could have done a Stronghold-type thing, but then for that amount of time to build, the centurions would have to be quite strong to be worth it. I could be completely wrong, but this seems to be the idea since there's not any other books I know of that let you learn spells themselves. [races back to Morrowind through quantum flux] I will have to find this book sometime and do my own bit of studying. For those that have read the book, are there any conclusive details on the construction of a centurion?

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Waxy Monkey
(Adept)
10/15/02 10:07 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

No details, well no actual words either. Just a few pretty pictures.

Co-Webmaster of House of Ral-Jiktar

Proud member of the Gratuitous Guar Guild & The Forum Scholars Guild

"Despite the cost of living, it's still popular." - Karen Norris

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/15/02 11:28 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Well, the diagrams weren't exactly...explicit. It showed a sphere centurion in it's "sphere" form, then it showed it halfway erect, and then fully erect. each drawing had a number of sidenotes attached in an indecipherable (sp?) hand.
[steps out of character] I agree with you, evelian. I think that the centurion isn't actually being summoned like a Daedra, but it is the games way of saying that you built this, though knowing this, I would say that the thing lasted more than 120sec ya know? something to mess with;-) As far as I know, the stronghold construction person simply learned the "spell" or rather method of construction from the book, then using her unusual powers, allowed them eternal existence.
[steps back into character] I shall do some more research on this book, maybe I missed a drawing or two towards the back.

Open your eyes

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evelian
(Curate)
10/15/02 11:37 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

If the centurions you adventurers are building are only lasting so long, perhaps your source of power is very limited and they become immobile and useless after only a few seconds?

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Huntsman
(Acolyte)
10/15/02 11:49 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

[OOC]I was going to bring up this very point, perhaps the bulding of your centurion represented by a spell represents the relatively limited power sources we have available. As I mentioned before, you need Soul Gems to get them for the Telvanni stronghold, and they seem to be able to run off a number of different power sources. My guess is that the Telvanni use soul gems to power them, which is why those particular ones are permanant. The ones we (or Yagrum) create use imperfect alchemical mixes that are temporary. Note that the Dwemer most likely used a completely different source/type of power, so the fact that Telvanni use soul gems and others use fuels does not mean either of these are the Dwemer's method.[/OOC]

It does seem that the power sources we devise can't match whatever the Dwemer developed. Perhaps, instead of a fuel per se, the Dwemer used an alchemical mix that "resonated" with energy transmitted from their steam devices? The tonal architects work in unknown vibrations, so perhaps this tonal magic was used for transmitting energy from the machines to a special substance within the Dwemer cylinders?

I am still seeking answers, and searching ruins to find clues to this. Many things have side-tracked this task, though. Much of my research requires me to reach high ranks in the various guilds and groups in Morrowind, to access the knowledge and equipment I need for my research. Working through the ranks can be a somewhat tedious task, especially when other concerns are more prominent.

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evelian
(Curate)
10/15/02 12:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Huntsman] 

I know the feeling. Only one with power, money, and keen skills has the resources needed to fully delve into their research. It is a shame, as I often wonder how many great minds are born in the east side of Balmora, and are never given a chance to fully exploit that mind. Vvardenfell is a dangerous place, and to be able to travel anywhere requires the patience to be prepared for any untimely event. I remember my early years of honing my marksman skill with Mud Crabs in the marshes, and selling their meat for a few meager coins, so I could have just enough to travel to the nearest ruin. I am a bit better off now, but I still find myself in trouble now and then. Thieves and robbers haunt the Dwemer ruins more often than the Dwemer themselves.

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/15/02 02:20 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

[steps ooc] I was playing around in the editor, making a Dwemer laboratory for Tel Uvirith (they had to make the guards somewhere =D) and figured I'd take a peek at the centurions and how they work, so to speak. It seems, if one looks carefully, on the underside of their chest peice, there is a kind of...plug looking thing. I only noticed it because it reminds me of the flat side of a Dwemer Cylinder, and is also slightly incongruous with the rest of the gold color; it is a silver circle. It also seems to have tubes going into it, though I am not sure as to their function. I don't knwo if this helps, but who knows, I will look into the Sphere centurions immediately.

Open your eyes

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evelian
(Curate)
10/15/02 02:27 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

Ah, someone who has examined them closely. It is no hard evidence, but it does appear as though centurions are powered by Dwemer cylinders.

[by the way...that's cheating! ]

Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/15/02 07:17 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Certainly seems like the most compelling evidence for some sort of power cell yet. I wonder if any of the other constructs appear to have tubes slotted into them.
[Evelian is right, it is cheating. The idea is to sneak up on them with a camoflage spell active ]

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/16/02 02:12 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

[I tried that, but it was impossible to see some of the parts underneath, even when sneaking (crouching) I wouldn't have seen the plug looking thing. the SPheres will have to be looked at ingame though, they are inside the little sphere shell in the editor =/] Well, I will see if I can take a look at Master Demnevanni's SHock Centurion and see if it shows sign of a similar 'slot'.

Open your eyes

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Zinash
(Novice)
10/16/02 05:11 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

Greetings fine scholars, theoriticians and adventurers alike. For some while i've been keeping tabs on your think tank here. Many good idea's, many indeed. I've noted that you've mentioned Dwemer enchantments many a time here, and even Yagrum himself professed a knowledge in his peoples ability in enchanting. My ponderance lies here.

We all know well now that the Dwemer were grand at enchanting, but Yagrum himself has proven that the Dwemer were opposed to anything that vaunted towards necromancy. Wich friends, would include souls within soul gems, would it not? My question is, what then, did the Dwemer use to power ANY of their enchantments?

- Young Koviis Nactala,
Student of Mathmatics in the properties of Enchantments,
Son of Zinash Nactala of Nactala plantation.

When YOU become a child of Taath, you see how easy it is not to wear the red pumps.

Edited by Zinash (10/16/02 05:12 PM)

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Theodoret
(Initiate)
10/16/02 09:22 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Zinash] 

Good question. I don't know if the Dwemer aversion to necromancy encompassed the entrapment of Daedric souls (the most common power source for modern enchantments).
Dunmer culture places a taboo on necromancy involving Dunmer souls (unless the Dunmer involved gives permission as with ghostfences and ancestor guardians). However use of non-Dunmer, particularly non-mer, souls is considered acceptable (I think there is a book on this in Morrowind).
It may be the case that Dwemer had similiar views to the Dunmer on this matter and only avoided the use of Dwemer souls. Alternatively they may have used some other means of binding magic to an object.

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CaptainCanMan
(Initiate)
10/17/02 12:09 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

I am late to this discussion. Very late

But the tonal architect, the sound thing. A lot of engineers are musically inclined as well, so I believe their titles reference their extended abilities.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/17/02 01:25 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

One thing I remember in my explorations was a Crystal in one of the Dwemer Strongholds.......... Azura's Coast I think.

This is the same type of Crystals you find in caves where the 'Oblivian Flow' is strongest....... and the very same crystals used by us Telvanni to accelerate the growth of the "Shrooms/Strongholds" (given a boost with a daedric soul or two).

Now the point is this was not something that 'grew' in the Stronghold. The Dwemer deliberatley placed it there, possibly for study. I shall have to make it point to visit there again and examine it a little closer.

I don't recall there being any other crystals in any other strongholds but I have yet to explore all of them......so far.

This could be a 'small clue'. Or a leftover from a Dwemer study. I intend to find out more.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
10/17/02 02:51 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

My studies and researches have delved even deeper into the dwemer disappearance. I believe I have come up with some staggering evidence that proves many of our theories wrong. Thinking more about the ghostly Dwemer spectres that still walk this plane, and constructs that remain operable after all these years, I have opened myself to more possibilities. Many of which are quite grand and may be conclusive. In proving my theroies, I shall have to take council with the prophesized Nerevarine and research the Tools of Kagrenac even further. I believe that Sotha Sil may hold the secret to their disappearance since he was able to study the Tools. If I were to pry into them, I may be able to unlock what I believe to be the "Truth". This may be the very reason why Sotha Sil has chosen isolation. What he knows may present a great danger. Of course, getting answers from the Heart is quite impossible at this point, since it is believed that the Nerevarine has sent it to an outer plane, or perhaps destroyed it altogether.
My theory has been relayed to the council, where they are in total agreement that this should be looked into deeper.
My friends, these are rich times we are living! The truth is just around the corner.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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evelian
(Curate)
10/17/02 03:34 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

This would be wonderful, indeed! Perhaps I shall prepare a journey to find Sotha Sil myself next month. If I or someone else could get information from him concerning the tools, we could know for sure where the Dwemer went. I am greatly excited.

---------------------------------
Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Theodoret
(Acolyte)
10/17/02 04:12 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

Hmmm. Divayth Fyr the ever-cryptic.
I look forwards to Lord Fyr's new theories, although I would advise extreme caution if he intends to study the tools closely. The disappearance of Lord Fyr is not a puzzle I would take any great pleasure in researching.
I must confess that my desire to meet Sotha Sil increases by the day, although there is still much work for me on Vvardenfell. I am almost certain that Sotha Sil knows the true fate of the Dwemer. Whether he would be willing to share such information is another matter. I was priviledged to gain an audience with Lord Vivec recently, but was most frustrated by his prevarication. Lord Vivec has the unique talent to appear to be open and honest whilst in fact being nothing of the sort. I hope Sotha Sil does not share this character trait, or any meeting would be a fruitless endevour.

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evelian
(Curate)
10/17/02 04:20 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

Sotha Sil may appear to be more mysterious, but that may be just because he chooses seclusion. He may prove to be more willing to share real truth than Vivec. Alas, Vivec seems to be interested in power and only power; he merely appears humble and honest to gain this power. I cannot deny he is clever in this aspect, but I do not fall for it. I will not whittle away my life by worshipping one who does not face the people with wisdom and truth. In the end, there is no wisdom in lies, and Vivec will learn that sooner or later.

---------------------------------
Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/17/02 05:44 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

I, unfortunately, come bearing little news of my researches. When I heard of the Dwemer ruin containing a crystal like to those that are numerous in the Telvanni Towers, and that it was on Azura's Coast, my first thought was a ruin called Nchurdamz, and since I was heading to Odirnirnan (sp?) to aid a fellow Telvanni mage in trouble, I was able to stop in and look. There is, in fact a Crystal there, though the surroundings lead me to belive that it was placed there after the Dwemer left, by a cult or necromancers maybe. But I somehow doubt that it was used by the Dwemer for anything.
The other news I have concerns the Dwemer Cylinders, in a small way. I was recently examining one of the large crossbow type devices commonly found outside Dwemer ruins, and was shocked to find that it had several spaces around it that looked like the 'plug' I had found on a Stem Centurion. I do not know if they are of the same purpose, but hopefully, someone will be able to delve into this more than I am able to at the moment. As to Master Fyr's news, I am not surprised in the least. Of the Tribunal, and in truth of all those still living, Sotha-Sil would be the only one who might know what happened to the Dwemer, and I can hardly wait the month until routes are opened to us to return to the Mainland. Until then, safe researching *smiles*

Open your eyes

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/17/02 05:49 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

I would be willing to assist in any way I can, though the tools may be a problem. I have them carefully hidded away and would not wish to have them away from my possesion for any length. I already plan on dropping by to visit with Yagrum soon (and you too of course) so I might as well bring them with me. I have a bit of free time now........ The Temple cut back on their need for Ordinators and I just could not see good warriors go to waste so I took some in and put them to good use keeping at least a few areas compleatly clear. Speaking of which I'll be in Telasero with some of them clearing out the cultilst that keep filtering in there. I plan on shutting it down as a 6th house base for good this time and opening up a safe route from Suran to Molag Mar.

I'll drop by after then, but If you need me sooner feel free to come on down and join us. It would give you an excuse to drop in and see your friend in Odirnirian and then we can go up the coast to Nchurdamz and examine that Crystal I mentioned earlier.

Sorry, I don't spend a lot of time in Uvirith's Grave theese days or I could see you sooner......... I've been meaning to confront the Telvanni Council about that place(location) also, but any-way I have a more suitable base now .........Know anyone wanting to buy a barely lived-in Mushroom ? (not to imply that I don't like the neighbors).

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/17/02 06:01 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

Nchurdamz, yep, thats the place. I'm not so sure about someone else putting it there. The place did have a reasearch facility type 'feel' to it. Besides I don't think anyone could move in without clearing out the guradians that were there.

Now on the 'plugs' you find I just think they are a standard 'covering' or seal. I find them all over the place, covering bolts and pipe ends. They are the same style as seen on the Dwemer Cylinders. Some may be power cylinders some not. It would be helpful If we could pull one off without destroying it, but they will not budge.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Commandante
(Layman)
10/17/02 11:00 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

I have spent several days reading this great discusion of the Dwemer (in fact I joined the forum just to post this) and after exploring Arkngthand It has come to my attention that several of these Dwemer pipes have been severed and ignited. This leads me to belive that the pipes may be carrying some form of flammable fuel, and perhaps the "plugs" seen on the caps of these pipes may attach to the centuarians to re supply their fuel. And perhaps the Cylinders were a means of simply transporting or storing this fuel.

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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/17/02 11:36 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Commandante] 

As you know, the Dwemer weren't just Engineers with machinery, they were excellent enchanters. Master enchanters, in fact. Kagrenac is called the "Master Mage-Crafter Engineer" by a few sources. Anyway, I was thinking that back then, they wouldn't have regular soul gems (Or maybe they weren't thought of).

What I'm getting at, is that maybe Dwemer Cylinders and Tubes act as soul gems to the Dwemer. They would probally use the souls of beasts (Most likely Lesser Daedra) in a Cylinder to power their animunuculi. However, Most likely they didn't have AI or computer processers back than, as it's a MEDIEVAL (Or I think) FANTASY.

So, maybe these Cylinders allowed a double transfer. The transfer of Soul POWER, and the transfer of Soul THOUGHTS. The soul would not only be used as the automan's power, but as it's controller. It might have allowed just enough of the soul's thoughts to controll the machine, but not enough to act as it used to when it was still "Alive".

This isn't completelly true, I'm just rambling about from my findings.

P.S. That Archeology Mod idea is excellent ! I would definatlly download it if someone makes it (Unless I get to it first ). There is already a mod from one of my favored sites "The Daily Vivec" allowing you to play as a reporter for the Morrowind Newspaper.

"You killed the shop teacher. You killed him. Who killed the shop teacher? I didn't kill the shop teacher, you killed the shop teacher. You killed the shop teacher...You killed him!"

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tegger
(Disciple)
10/18/02 05:12 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Commandante] 

Interesting finding, Commandante. Welcome!

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Ignorance is not knowing.
Stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway. ~ TSL

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B
(Curate)
10/18/02 06:39 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

In reply to:

Posted by Divayth Fyr:

My studies and researches have delved even deeper into the dwemer disappearance. I believe I have come up with some staggering evidence that proves many of our theories wrong.



Lord Fyr, I would love to hear more about this "staggering evidence" that you have discovered. We have speculated on many different theories, and if we could eliminate many of them as false, then we would be able to focus our efforts in learing the "Truth" behind the Dwemer Dissappearance.

Alas, someone must be sent to discuss these matters with Sotha Sil. It will not be an easy task, and I fear that I may not be able to take time off from my duties at The Modern Adventurer. Therefore, I must ask someone else to make this journey and report the news.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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kalniel
(Curate)
10/18/02 09:18 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

This is indeed good news. I cannot wait to discover the outcome of this investigation now that the council have given this their blessing.

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Divayth Fyr the Psijic
(Novice)
10/18/02 01:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

I have in my possession, the Tools of Kagrenac. My Tower has been teleported to the Outer Planes so I may be quite secluded and without interuption. So far, my findings are quite acedemic. The enchantments surrounding these devices are quite simple and easily conjured. I do not believe the enchantments alone to be the key I am looking for. It appears that any mortal man can weild such devices, given he knows the order of use.
There is something very peculiar here. I just can not put my finger on it. Under all the enchantments, they simply appear to be Dwemer devices of ornate design. Nothing new as a matter of fact. There must be more behind this. Perhaps the Heart played an even larger part than I have imagined. Kagrenac was quite the genius with invention and ambition, but the Tools just do not match up with many theories. How could these simple, enchanted Tools be used against the Heart and vanish an entire race? I am afraid there is more than meets the eye.

Divayth Fyr the Psijic

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/18/02 02:46 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Now if you had only waited another day, I could have brought the REAL tools. Tsk, Tsk. I forgot to mention that I'm also a Master Enchanter and can swing a Smith's Hammer as well as any sword.

The Enchantments are exactly as found on the original's with the exception that they do not harm the weilder. With the Original's you have to weild them with Wraithguard, and that I Keep on my person at all times. Perhaps this is the key. Not a particular enchantments but the combined effects of the enchantments and their interaction (with each other) to divide the tones into the proper 'sequence'. And of course the order in which the tools were used.

Now about the heart, I already said that I did not think that it was compleatly destroyed, else, or the 6th house crowney's would not keep comeing back. Again this is related to my previous observation on how the tools were used and how the power of the heart was used.

Now as soon as you bring your Tower back into our reality I can give you the real items ......... Telvanni, why did I join this house, Why do I stay on as Arch-Magister. My friends advised me to go with Redoran since I was already Arch-Mage, but Nooooooo, I had to think I could actualy get the Mage Guild and the Telvanni to work together if I was head of both. WHAT WAS I THINKING ??!! I should reserect Trebonis and make him my replacement as Arch-Magister on the Telvanni council. That would shake things up

Oh yea, I already know about the "Daedra Sanctuary"..... on the outer planes........ how did you get your tower to fit in there

The real reason I joined the Telvanni is that I can learn a lot from their lore(after I filter it) and They KEEP me on my toes

And Divayeth, you try that again and I'll make you sit on the Telvanni Council for at least 200 years



1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
10/18/02 02:49 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: evelian] 

As one of the many possible incarnations of Nerevarine, it's a pleasure to return to Vvardenfel and my rather comfortable (and wonderfully modified, thanks to another kind wizard) home in Tel Uvirith. I've been distracted with purely academic endeavors, as well as busy investigating the Imperial "toys" known as "Hitman 2" and "Unreal Tournament 2003." A Bosmer friend of mine also recently uncovered an ancient device that appears to be Akaviri, called an "NES." It's good to see this discussion continue to thrive.

Lord Fyr, it's good that you're investigating the tools, but I believe that simply looking into the enchantments alone will find nothing. After all, the most powerful artifacts in the world can have no discernable enchantment. There's the Bitter Cup, or the myserious characteristics of Karegnac's tools to kill any who aren't worthy. Or the Moon-and-Star's ability to sense and kill any who are not the Nerevarine. Whatever Karegnac did, I suspect it will take far more than a few "Detect Enchantment" spells to understand it.

Incidentally, my colleagues and I have been discussing something, Lord Fyr. Would you ever consider facing Lord Vivec in a fight? I'm all but certain you would win, and it's always amusing to see a man (and in your case I use that term very tenatively- you are far more than that) best a god (and in his case I use that term very loosely). If nothing else it could be a way for me to make an easy ten thousand septims...

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Theodoret
(Acolyte)
10/18/02 03:37 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Could it be possible that there are underlying enchantments which have escaped detection? If not then we should perhaps pay more attention to the 'tonal' aspect of Dwemer magic. Perhaps the tools are merely crafted so as to strike a certain tone from the Heart and manipulate it. By this I mean that it is the physical rather than magical properties of the tools which may be of interest. Are there any unique physical characteristics of the tools? Pehaps the metal or the construction. What of the the sonorous qualities of Sunder and Keening?
When dealing with certain magical creatures I have found that weapons without magic properties are ineffective. However, any form of enchantment confered upon a weapon will allow it to have an effect upon such creatures. Perhaps in order to interact with the Heart the tools need to be enchanted to a degree. As with the example above the nature of such enchantments may be irrelevant, so long as there is some enchantment. Kagrenac may have placed those particular enchanments simply to guard the tools from others (I hear there is an unpleasant enchantment which is triggered by a bearer using the tools in the incorrect manner), and/or to aid him in any work with the Heart.

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evelian
(Curate)
10/18/02 03:44 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

However, any form of enchantment confered upon a weapon will allow it to have an effect upon such creatures. Perhaps in order to interact with the Heart the tools need to be enchanted to a degree. As with the example above the nature of such enchantments may be irrelevant, so long as there is some enchantment. Kagrenac may have placed those particular enchanments simply to guard the tools from others (I hear there is an unpleasant enchantment which is triggered by a bearer using the tools in the incorrect manner), and/or to aid him in any work with the Heart.

Very good thought, Theodoret. The enchantment may mean very little in the actual process. Do we know why enchanted items have an effect on these beings? Magicka effects them as well, but the idea that any enchantment breaks their immunity could hold some clue.

---------------------------------
Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/18/02 03:53 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Theodoret] 

That is a very probable theory. If I remember something I read in the Monomyth, the Heart cannot be destroyed because it is of this world, the mundus, and they rely on each other for existence, which leads me to believe that it cannot be destroyed, merely made to withdraw to another plane.
As for the tools, I have a few personal theories of my own, but I tend to agree with Master Fyr on this point. The tools are incredibly simple in construction, and given enough skill or coin and a powerful soul, one could re-create the enchantments without pause. What is interesting though is the construction, for they were tools designed to generate *very* specific tones from the Heart.
My theories lean towards something I may have mentioned before. That there existed a fourth tool that Kagrenac used to complete whatever Magicks he was working with and it was taken with him and the Dwemer to wherever they went. I also believe that Wraithguard was *not* in fact a tool used to generate tones from the Heart, but was in fact used to block the power of the Heart, maybe to test it without generating any power, while also blocking whoever was testing the Heart from the power of Keening and Sunder.
But those are just my theories =) Hopefully, Master Fyr will discover something conclusive soon.

Open your eyes

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/18/02 05:10 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

No I tend to disagree, Wraithguard is a vital part of this.

Case in Point: Dagoth Ur HAD both sunder and keeing, he needed wraithguard to use in combination with the tools to fully use the power of the heart and create a new god. The Tribunal had all three items when they broke their vows and used them to become gods themselves. For a While Dagoth Ur had all three in his possesion, whether or not he used them at that time is a matter of conflicting information on events at Red Mountain. But he was able to tap the power of the heart, that much is obvious. How and when remains another mystory to be solved. I've covered this before.

If there was a fouth tool (as I speculated bofore) it was created after the events by Dagoth Ur. He had plenty of time and access to all the information he needed. Another case in point. Using information from the Journal and Planbook, Yagrum 'could' make another "version" of Wraithguard....... given the right materials....... so, why not Dagoth Ur, perhaps he could only make something that was 'imperfect' and hence the result of the Divine Disease. Again as I said before, It would answer a lot of questions.

And very good observation on the Monomyth, I was waiting for sombody to point it out

Simple in construction......... Do you know how hard it was to find the 'right' material for the blade alone. And forge it. Wow, that was the hard part. Took me a good two months to just get the replica to look right. No, I think the designs were very specific, and specificly designed to not be easy to use, much less figure out how to use them properly. I can appreciate the effort that went into all theese items by duplicateing them. The enchants were pretty easy though. I learned a few secrets myself trying to duplicate them exactly, not to mention powering them........ ummmm, that I'm not willing to share just yet. You might figure it out. Then again....................

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Commandante
(Layman)
10/18/02 05:23 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

This discussion over Keening and Sunder has got me thinking. It has been said that the simple act of wielding the tools brings about harm to the wielder without the use of Wraithguard, this is not true. Wraithguard does nothing to protect a wielder from Keening and Sunder, it's only purpose (well, maybe not only) is to protect the user from the power of the heart. I quote Kagrenac's Tools,

"Wraithguard is an enchanted gauntlet to protect its wearer from destruction when tapping the heart's power. Sunder is a enchanted hammer to strike the heart and produce the exact volume and quality of power desired. Keening is an enchanted blade that is used to flay and focus the power that rises from the heart."

So I can conclude that Keening and Sunder do not harm the user. If I have overlooked any evidence that could prove me wrong, bring it forward and I will be happy to take it into review.


------------------------------------------------------------
Is the King of mediocrity the best of the average?
Or does he lie at the center of all?
------------------------------------------------------------

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/18/02 05:37 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Commandante] 

Consider the source of the information, even though it was put together by the dissident priest. They only knew then less about the tools than we do now. I think it was as close to the truth as they could come to know at that time, and even then is was intertwined with speculation and conjecture. Very Good referance material though.

Try picking up eithor sundor of keening without wraithguard and you will see what I mean .......... for all of about 2 seconds, for most people.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Commandante
(Layman)
10/18/02 06:02 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

yeah, I wondered about that, as I have started a new character and don't exactly recall if I ever actually picked either one of them up without wraithguard (it was a long time ago). As I check now, you are in fact correct.

Just a common mistake of a long time listener, first time poster.


------------------------------------------------------------
Is the King of mediocrity the best of the average?
Or does he lie at the center of all?
------------------------------------------------------------

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Yeah
(Layman)
10/18/02 07:40 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Commandante] 

"Wraithguard is an enchanted gauntlet to protect its wearer from destruction when tapping the heart's power. Sunder is a enchanted hammer to strike the heart and produce the exact volume and quality of power desired. Keening is an enchanted blade that is used to flay and focus the power that rises from the heart."

About the sunder getting the "exact volume and quality of power desired", maybe the Dwemer were far too overconfident and drew as much power as they could from the heart, making them very powerful indeed. So powerful that they skipped a few steps in the death process for such beings and went straight to being Deadra lords. Sotha Sil, knowing the Dwemers greatest mistake, only taught Vivec and Almalexia how to use the heart to only scratch the surface of its power so that they would still be in the mortal plane. It would explain why Sotha Sil is the strongest "God", and why Dagoth Ur is stronger than Vivec (aside from the fact that Vivec has not tapped power in a long time. Vivec himself said Dagoth Ur was stronger and wiser, so maybe he and Sotha Sil figured out how much made you go into Oblivion, and backed it up a little bit.

Wonder what Master Fyr's speculations are on that thesis?

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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/19/02 01:51 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yeah] 

First of all, the Wraithguard is ESSENTIEL for tapping power from the heart. You are using all the wrong sources. I read in a few places, the once you derive a tone from the heart with Sunder, and flay the tone into the amount power required with Keening, the Keening focus' the power INTO the Wraithguard.

This means, basically, that you must wear the Wraithguard in order to absorb the power you tap from the heart. Otherwise it would remain active for awile until someone else tries to steal power.

Now, onto other matters. I believe that the minor enchantments available from the three Tools is only a side benifet from wielding them. I also believe that these enchantments reflect that particular tools purpose. Like the Wraithguard, which is used to protect the wearer from the other tools awesome power, also has excellent protection against regular Magicka.

The Sunder, which is used to 'Force' a tone from the Heart, increases the wielders strength and constitution dramatically. And the Keening, whose job is to 'Flay and Focus' the tone, wields an awesome increase in speed and mobility.

These are just my insights on the enchantment bestowed on the Tools, and nothing on their higher purpose. BTW, I, too, believe there to be a Fourth Tool Kagrenac hid from everyone. My sight is so that how come when he used the tools that one time the Dwemer dissapeared, and not when he originally used it or when the Tribunal used it? He might have designed a fourth tool for himself, who's purpose is to grant Substantial power relative to what he had already gained.

"You killed the shop teacher. You killed him. Who killed the shop teacher? I didn't kill the shop teacher, you killed the shop teacher. You killed the shop teacher...You killed him!"

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Sotha Sil
(Layman)
10/19/02 03:13 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Divayth Fyr the Psij] 

Friend Divayth, it is too long since we have spoken. And it is too often recently I have seen your words.

You toy with the minds of these curious mortals. The Tools of Kagrenac in your possession? I think not. Were you to have them, I would fear for your life. They are not tools for mortals, Fyr, as you well know.

And what of your own mortality? How does that stand? If you live longer than a god, are you any less sublime? There has always been something different in you, though, I think. I believe you find a certain joy in your own mortality, thin stretched though it may be. It is a good quality in you.

Your curiosity is troublesome. You are a wizard, a scholar, a delver into pasts and futures. This I understand, as I have been all these things and more.

Curiosity is an odd thing. It is a bright path surrounded by brambles.

You are an interesting creature, my friend, and I would not wish you ill. I implore you take greater care with your words. The mortal mind is easily fractured by the divine.

For now, I will watch you entertain yourself as you toy with so much talk of the How and the Where. These are the questions most easily answered, but they will be the least satisfying.

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Confused Lizard
(Novice)
10/19/02 08:40 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

ahh I probably missed it, but...wheres it say Sotha Sil was the strongest of the tribunal? er or anything about how any of them compare with each other.

I cant see the logic behind a 4th tool, If Dagoth had made another tool that actually worked or had some effect on the heart, then why would he bother waiting around for Wraithguard instead of just geting on with things. Heck Dagoth was off even for an elf so I dont see him doing something as complicated as what Kagrenac was up to.

If supposedly the heart wasnt destroyed after the Nerevarine's actions, I wonder what the chances are of it ending up in the same place as the Dwemer. If they, again supposedly, went anywhere rather then simply being destroyed.

Bit of a problem there if they started working on another Akulakhan in some remote place where even the gods couldnt touch em....well a problem for you elves anyway. One mer race is about the same as another mer race, with or without a 60 foot golem looming around scruffing up the scenery.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/19/02 09:06 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

Welcome Old Friend, you should get out more. Being secluded for lengthy periods can lead to Madness........ or so I hear.

I have thus far refrained from commenting to you, but please do leave poor old Fyr alone, he is just trying to be helpful. There are few other Telvanni I can be comfortable with and he is one........ I just have to keep in mind he has spent a long time with them, and take that into account.

Odd thing mortality, what is mortality ? ���. Whether it was the breaking of the Oath or plain Betrayal.....or both...... I have been cast into many lives across many times now by your(the Tribunals) actions. I can remember very little detail of those lives, but the experiences seem to have stayed with me. Each life a lesson, as it were. Preparing for what, certainly not just to face Dagoth Ur. No there is more. I have turned down the power of a god only to now become an immortal being, perhaps in its own way even more powerful than a god.

If there is one lesson that needs to be taught, power in itself is neither good nor evil, it is how you use that power that is good or evil. Words ultimately are just words, actions are what defines us. It was a pity I could not have saved my old friend Dagoth Ur, somehow, I still feel responsible for him. There are Three more Old 'friends' I still worry about. You fear me, I know that, do not let that fear destroy you as it surely will. Your time has come and I will let your own actions judge you.

Please send my reguards to Almalexia.

I have watched, I have waited, I will act when it is time.







1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
10/19/02 10:25 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Sotha Sil] 

In reply to:

For now, I will watch you entertain yourself as you toy with so much talk of the How and the Where. These are the questions most easily answered, but they will be the least satisfying.




Which leaves, as mentioned before, the Why?

. . .



-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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Srikandi
(Disciple)
10/20/02 03:15 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

... and the Who, What, Which, and When? (Not to mention "if" and "whether".)

__________
Srikandi's Morrowind

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Hungry DonnerModerator
(Master)
10/20/02 03:32 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

I just hope the answer to that isn't "because"

Edit: w00t, 8000 posts!

------------------

Calligraphy is hidden in the teachings of the
master, and its betterment lies in ample and
continuous practice.
� Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib

_/ Hungry Donner \_
�\ ICQ: 36149651 /�

Edited by Hungry Donner (10/20/02 03:33 PM)

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
10/20/02 05:44 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Hungry Donner] 

Or my personal favorite:

"Why not?"



-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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Cjad the Nord
(Curate)
10/20/02 07:39 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

Before half of these people showed up, this was a serious discussion. Now some of you are just pretending to be what you are in the game instead of telling your knowledge and theories. Some of you are just Roleplaying about what you are talking about and so it has no credibility.

Confused Lizard, I never said Sotha Sil was the strongest of the Tribunal. Niether did I say DAGOTH UR made a fourth tool. I said Kagrenac made a fourth tool, and I didn't even totally agree, I only said it's a possibility and said why I think so. Anyway, I liked the thread the way is was when we actually Discussed things (Theodoret and others), and would eagrly wish to get back to the main topic.

"You killed the shop teacher. You killed him. Who killed the shop teacher? I didn't kill the shop teacher, you killed the shop teacher. You killed the shop teacher...You killed him!"

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/20/02 10:48 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

[ooc]
Awwwhhhhh, come on and lighten up Cjad, nothing wrong with a bit of RP.

We are just about tapped out on theories, we get to wait until the game comes out most likely before we can progress any furthor.
[/ooc]

Haveing heard of one of the cylinders being removed from one of the dwemer machines, I started to step up my explorations of the dwemer ruins.......I found one at Arknghand with a Cylinder attached, removing it was easy but there appeared to be no place to put it back into. No slot. Just kind of stuck on the side of this device, most puzzleing. Has anybody else located a cylander attached to one of theese machines, and if so where.

An update on the decoritive pipe ends, they do not seem to be ends on active pipes, just decorations from the looks of it. The 'pipes' I found theese caps on do not seem to perform any function of any kind. I still find the 'caps' on other things and in various sizes. So the style is pretty much standard but that is about all I can tell unless I can get some of theese covers off without destroying them. The majority of them seem to just be covers. I'll have to examine one of the steam ceturions I recently disabled to see if it does have any cylinders like the ones we are looking for.

Also, In exploring I had an odd feeling that finaly made itself more prominent. The Lights. Before, we thought that they were attached to steam pipes and used that as a source of energy somehow. This is not the case. I have observed Lights that are not attached to any pipes of any sort, and also observed lights attached to broken pipes still functional....... the oddest thing is I found a broken light attached to a broken pipe and it was still quite functional. I would like to know if anyone else has made this observtion. I would also like to remove one of theese lights and study it.

While at the same ruin I also found theese broken pipes that had flames someing from them. I found this quite odd, until I progressed further down into the ruins and found simular pipes that were intact. I think it is related to that greenish-blackish liquid stuff I found earlier stored in a vat. I'm just not able to tell. Apparently the dwemer were experimenting with different sources of power. That might explain the other facility with the Crystal.

So the pipes are multifuntional, they might carry steam of this other liquid. I'll make note that the pipes have no markings that could distingish them. We might have to pay closer attention to the ruins.


1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Commandante
(Layman)
10/20/02 11:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Hmm, attached cylinders you say? Well, I�ve never actually encountered one, but I bet it�s something to see. I think the real question behind that is still if it was manufacturing the cylinder or filling it, or it filling the machine.

As for the pipes, if the caps are merely decorative, that shoots down my theory of them resupplying the centurions. But it would seem that some pipes carry this greenish liquid, which can be ignited, as based on the flaming pipes we�ve observed in Arkngthand and others carry simple steam as based on the �strange steam machines� and leaky pipe fittings. Now, as for the lights being independent from the pipes, I think I must object. I point to what happens when one fails the test of pattern in Nchleftingth, the broken light above spews some poisonous gas at you. I realize that this may be some form of enchantment placed on the light, but that seems needlessly complex.

Now, to address the crystal matter. It would seem that this is not related to the dwemer in any way (other than it being in a ruin). The particular ruin in question is currently inhabited by a certain deadroth, if I�m not mistaken. I�m quite sure it is the doing of this deadroth.

But then, what do I know; I�m just a lowly silt strider operator. If you have any counter evidence, I�d like to consider it.


------------------------------------------------------------
Is the King of mediocrity the best of the average?
Or does he lie at the center of all?
------------------------------------------------------------

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/21/02 12:21 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Commandante] 

For the lights, the best place to verify my observations is the very same Arknghand. It is above a hole in the wall where you leave the main Chambers and start into the lower parts. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

On the Crystal. I don't remember any daedra being there, but It was a while since I was there last. I'll make it a point to visit again as daedra are known to return to the same area again without fail. Eithor way having a daedra there is no real certainty that it was the one that placed the crystal there. Useualy they have to be summoned to an area, perhaps this is the case or mearly they are just attracted to the crystal. But obviously the Crystal was placed there by somebody. It could be nothing, but the adventurous side of me says there is something to it. And my 'little voice' agrees.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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tegger
(Disciple)
10/21/02 12:27 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

The only ruins in which I ever found such crystals was Nchurdamz, where Larienna defeated the daedroth Hlrelvsu (I think that's the spelling). I suspect those crystals were placed there by whatever necromancer first summoned that daedroth, since she had gone back there to recover from wounds taken in a previous encounter with Larienna. I tend to doubt there's any more to it than that. Also, she won't return any time soon, having been defeated soundly enough to keep her in Oblivion for quite some time. There are no other daedra in that place.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Ignorance is not knowing.
Stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway. ~ TSL

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Katkall
(Initiate)
10/21/02 12:42 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

alrighty then

God can have his tithe when he pries it from my cold dead fingers.

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Star Boi
(Novice)
10/21/02 01:01 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

[ooc]
That would explain it. Nchurdamz does have a daedroth in it, but it isn't there unless you do the (I think) fighters guild quest with Larienna, otherwise there isn't a Daedra in the ruin. But that would most likely explain the crystal, since it seems out of place with the rest of the ruin.
[/ooc]

Well, that is an interesting theory, about the pipes containing flammable gasses, but I also have a point in contrast. I have, in my travels, seen several strange 'towers' which are simply stuck to the side of any one tower, and has three pipes on the top, all of which have two very small 'decorative endcaps' most of the time, but I have also witnessed one that was emitting fire from each pipe, which leads me to believe (since these pipes are not broken and do not lead anywhere) that the flaming pipes are merely a source of energy release, as opposed to a broken pipe.

But I shall continue my studies. After recently speaking with Yagrum about several artifacts I had recovered, I have several theories I would like to test, though I am doubtful about both.

Open your eyes

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
10/21/02 02:31 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

Back to reality for a second:

In reply to:

Before half of these people showed up, this was a serious discussion. Now some of you are just pretending to be what you are in the game instead of telling your knowledge and theories. Some of you are just Roleplaying about what you are talking about and so it has no credibility.




Well, in all seriousness, who has ANY credibility aside from Sotha Sil and Divayth Fyr? We're all discussing theories, here (with the occasional stray, but look how far this thread has strayed from the initial "City of Sotha Sil may be a Dwemer city" speculation). And the nature of any theory is founded upon guess and speculation. How 'credible' can ANY guess or speculation truly be?

But if you'd like to get back to theories, perhaps we should nudge this thread back onto a more fruitful path? While I find the Dwemer power source intriguing, I'm not sure how close it'll get any of us to the truth behind Red Mountain. Perhaps we should latch onto a couple of hints that Sotha Sil has consistently left:

In reply to:

You wonder where the Dwemer have gone? Perhaps better to wonder why one remains. Even gods dislike the absolute, for it stinks of something larger than themselves.

. . .a few posts later. . .

For now, I will watch you entertain yourself as you toy with so much talk of the How and the Where. These are the questions most easily answered, but they will be the least satisfying.




Which leads us to, as mentioned above, the why?

In reply to:

... and the Who, What, Which, and When? (Not to mention "if" and "whether".)




Well, the "Who" I would assume to be the Dwemer, the "What" and "Which" would be their disappearance, and the "When" has already been shrugged aside by Lord Fyr (in regards to the time travel theory).

"If" and "Whether" are not questions in and of themselves. Nice try, though.

Anyone else wish to continue down this path once again?

-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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tegger
(Disciple)
10/21/02 02:41 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

You've made some good points, Raptor. I wonder if maybe this discussion should be continued (and expounded upon) in the Elder Scrolls forum, since it deals heavily with lore -- and speculation about what it all means. I've been greatly enjoying the discourse, but you're right about how far it really did stray from the original topic.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Ignorance is not knowing.
Stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway. ~ TSL

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Katkall
(Acolyte)
10/21/02 02:45 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Yes and the original topic is really all that is important after all it is the original topic and without discussing it we lose the original topic and meander off into the great unknown or the unknown great whichever you prefer after all we are talking about the main topic arent we?

God can have his tithe when he pries it from my cold dead fingers.

Edited by Katkall (10/21/02 03:14 AM)

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tegger
(Disciple)
10/21/02 02:52 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Katkall] 

LOL, ya lost me on that one.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Ignorance is not knowing.
Stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway. ~ TSL

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evelian
(Curate)
10/21/02 11:02 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Cjad the Nord] 

Roleplaying? I do not understand. We are merely a group of individuals who come together from time to time to discuss the mysteries of the land where we live. From where do you hail, outlander?

[ooc] [/ooc]

---------------------------------
Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong

I think you're crazy, maybe
-Radiohead-

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Huntsman
(Acolyte)
10/21/02 04:41 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

Agreed, Raptor. I am pleased to inform the groups that I have, just today, made arrangements for a trip to the mainland within a fortnight's time. I plan to seek out Almalexia and, more importantly (I believe) Sotha Sil. I fell that Almalexia will be able to point me in the direction of Sotha's hidden clockwork city, especially considering the numerous duties I have performed for her temples. With luck, I will be able to decant some measure of understanding from Sotha Sil...however, should things not go as planned, I may not be able to report my findings.

[ooc] I agree we got off topic, but the roleplaying aspect is actually pretty fun. So why not just steer it back onto topic and keep the roles? [/ooc]

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bryrulz
(Disciple)
10/21/02 04:53 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

and what of the new screenshots?...what kind of centurions are those and how did they end up in the clockwork city if sotha sil doesn't have something to say about the dwemer...




Strength, to be shielded by the foundation of faith. Compassion, to be consumed by the burdens of the lost. Courage, to be steadfast in the face of danger.

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X_805
(Layman)
10/21/02 07:37 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: CatDragon] 

Maybe the Dwemer went to another plane. Somewhere outside of Oblivion and Nirn. Are there any references to that in any of the Tamriel lore?

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Commandante
(Layman)
10/21/02 08:18 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Star Boi] 

A few new theories/ideas/statements/whatever you want to call them. Straying from the original topic, first the pipes. Yes, yes the pipes are some form of energy release. The only point I really wanted to make with my theory was that they were carrying a flammable fuel source. For all we know, the �broken� pipes, and the end-caps, are MEANT to be spewing forth flame, it may be another light source, it may be a heat source (but who needs that when most of the ruins are built on top of lava flows anyway?), we don�t know. And because I have seen them on the outsides of ruins too, they may also serve to intimidate would be attackers or something.

Now, for what bryrulz said of the centurions. Just looking at the screenshots, we have no way of being sure that they are in fact in the clockwork city of Sotha Sil. They may be centurions that are unique to the Mournhold area Dwemer of Morrowind. Of course, now in all this ranting, I�ve lost my train of thought. I�ll just end it at this and continue to seek new knowledge. At this point, I don�t think we should be ready to dismiss anything.

Again, any counter evidence, I would be happy to consider it.


------------------------------------------------------------
Is the King of mediocrity the best of the average?
Or does he lie at the center of all?
------------------------------------------------------------

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bryrulz
(Disciple)
10/22/02 07:32 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Commandante] 

[[Just looking at the screenshots, we have no way of being sure that they are in fact in the clockwork city of Sotha Sil. They may be centurions that are unique to the Mournhold area Dwemer of Morrowind. ]]

okay...but what type of centurion do they look like and why would there be a 'unique' type of them in mournhold or the clock work city?...are they related to some intricate knowledge that sotha sil has about the dwemer?...does he have a conjuration spell like the one in the book in mw (bad attempt to leave out spoilers)?...




Strength, to be shielded by the foundation of faith. Compassion, to be consumed by the burdens of the lost. Courage, to be steadfast in the face of danger.

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Yagrum Bagarn
(Layman)
10/22/02 11:49 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: bryrulz] 

Friends and collegues of Master Fyr,

I regret to inform you that Master Divayth Fyr has gone missing. It is not known whether it is an intentional absence or one of mishap, but he has disappeared. He was to be in the outer planes but a few days. The prophesized Nerevarine aided in the re-conjuration of Divayth and his study, but upon arrival, the study was empty, bearing only the Three Tools and Divayth's study possessions. I do fear that this was not in Master Divayth's plans.

Master Sotha, I do feel that if Master Sotha had been available to pay heed to your warning, he would have taken your word. However, he had already ventured forth. His research into the Tools was rather successful, though I do feel that he may have attempted to test some of his theories with them without care as to his well being. As an old friend of his, I do think you understand his dangerous, yet pressing motives. For now, we can only hope that he has not driven himself too deep.

Yagrum Bagarn

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
10/22/02 12:50 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yagrum Bagarn] 

Yagrum, I'm quite sure that Lord Fyr is more than capable of handling whatever happened. After all, Vvardenfell is not an island of ghosts now, bereft of all Dunmer? And even I am not so skilled as to probe the outer reaches of Oblivion to find Lord Fyr. If there was any wizard or even god capable enough to eventually understand Karegnac's tools and what happened to the Dwemer, Lord Fyr is that man. However, I would suggest that you have Delte or one of the other sisters invite Lord Baladas to Tel Fyr. He's the third greatest mind on the subject of the Dwemer in Tamriel.

Keep in mind that the venerable Divayth Fyr is several thousand years old, and could take centuries to truly understand the tools or even what happened when he worked with them. But he'll be back.

I'd volunteer my services to research the Tools, but two kinds of men play with the toys of gods- fools and geniuses. Lord Fyr is the latter, and I am definitely neither.

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kalniel
(Curate)
10/22/02 12:51 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yagrum Bagarn] 

"Master Sotha, I do feel that if Master Sotha had been available..."

Friends, we must forgive Master Bargarn's odd tendancies from time to time, he of course meant if Master Fyr had been available.

I am most distressed to learn of this dissappearance, I only hope he was not goaded into this action as a result of our enquiries. Somehow I feel he would have gone anyway.

Kalniel

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WNightBlade
(Novice)
10/22/02 12:59 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: kalniel] 

Perhaps Lord Fyr is simply spending time "seeing old friends."

(OOC)

Ha-HA! I finally get to be cryptic!

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kalniel
(Curate)
10/22/02 01:08 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: WNightBlade] 

Your mirth is amusing, but I cannot help but guess his dissappearance is related to the dwemer. Alas my memory fails me again - was Lord Fyr around those millenia ago before the Dwemer dissappeared. I fear not, and thus he would not know any dwemer that had dissappeared.

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tegger
(Disciple)
10/22/02 01:15 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: kalniel] 

Actually, yes. We know Lord Fyr is at least 4,000 years old, and the Disappearance was roughly 3,000 years ago. He could very well have been acquainted with some other Dwemer.

)O( ===================== )O( ===================== )O(
Ignorance is not knowing.
Stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway. ~ TSL

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Huntsman
(Acolyte)
10/22/02 01:34 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: tegger] 

Hmmm, the plot thickens, as the bards would say.

This makes my upcoming trip to the mainland urgent. I wonder if Vivec, or Almalexia, might be able to look for Fyr. I am curious to know if, like the Dwemer, they can find no trace of him in mortal or other realms. Perhaps Lord Fyr did discover the methods used by (or on) the Dwemer, and is now with them. Whether this would be in death or not I cannot say, but I do hope Lord Fyr is not passed. No times are aided by the loss of a great mind.

I have contacts within every guild and temple in Morrowind, I will request that eyes and ears remain open. From comments by other notables, it seems that much may be brewing behind the scenes that is now close to boiling over. I cannot help but think this is somehow tied to the tools ad the Dwemer, but I cannot fathom how. I will, as always, submit those missives that I may as I find information. Such is, to date, rather scarce.

Until then, I suggest that all walk carefully in this inquiry. Those who have gotten close to the heart (pun intended) of the matter seen to have suffered adverse fate; the Dwemer disappeared, Lord Yagrum's unfortunate illness, and now Lord Fyr's dissappearance. I suspect that not even the Tribunal could answer these questions, as it seems that their method (and Dagoth Ur's) of using the heart was not that employed by the Dwemer or the recently misplaced Lord Fyr. Sotha Sil might know more, so it seems I must find this elusive god to find the answers.

Perhaps the truth will never be known, or cannot be. We may have to settle for a truth, and leave the truth to a later time.

Good luck, fellow scholars.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/22/02 01:47 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yagrum Bagarn] 

Wow, I had no Idea that my perfect replica's were, well, that perfect. But I did get the Idea from you Yagrum, (referance to the Second Wraithguard). I figured since it could be done, it could be done as well for the other tools. I had no intention of recreating the tools to be used. Interesting. I shall have to destroy theese replicas imeadiatly. But the important thing is that Mr Fyr should be OK, we will have to wait and see. I for one hope for the best. We shall see him when he can return to us....... Or is he just that afraid of sitting on the Telvanni council

One to other things, I can confirm the Cylander attahced to another Mysterious Steam Device in Druscashti Ruins. It was on one of the lower plates protruding from the bottom side of this device. Verrrry interesting. I've seen and done simular experiments with oblivian flow and this seems to have some of the same priciples involved, I think. It involved a new form of Magicka called science and tries to divide the oblivian flow into two opposnig forces....eh, well we can 'touch' on that later. I have also noticed that as the Steam Devices have Cylinders the 'Steam Machines' have tubes found on or nearby them, but I have yet to observe any tube attached directly to anything.

I have also noticed more ruins with the 'flame' pipes on the surface, most (read: almost all of them)are inactive. I can determine no parttern to this distrabution among the ruins. But the Dwemer do appear to have had at least two sources of power. Steam and this other Liquid that I would like to simply call Dwemer Oil. I wonder if they were using the power from the steam devices to extract this substance. Just A thought, but it would make sense.

And I have confirmed through one of my contacts in the fighters guild about Nchurdamz. It does seem to take the 'steam' out of my theory of Dwemer experiments with crystals. Ah, well, it was good while it lasted. Since the person who could have put it there is now no longer able to tell us we can only assume. Haveing found no other crystals ant any other sites this appears to be a 'dead' lead.

I would very much like to explore some of the other ruins on the mainland and see what they have to offer. Perhaps I shall plan a trip myself next month.......... I need to get away from all this Neveraine business, as it keeps interfering with my studies. The Ironic part is I would very much rather have tried to save Dagoth Ur rather than kill him. So much fame from so much sorrow, but I know it had to be done........ Yep, I need to get away for a short while. I have business on the mainland anyway.

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/22/02 08:25 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Dracodrakonis] 

Do you not see the importance of what Yagrum Bagarn said? Master Fyr did not have access to the Heart!!! If, as this 'Nerevar Reborn' has said, the Heart has been removed from Vvardenfell, Master Fyr was researching the tools by themselves. This means one of two things:

1. The Tools themselves are more important that the Heart.
2. Master Fyr has met with foul play, something which only the most powerful of entities could perform.

Either way, he was close to working out the true purpose of the tools.

The plot thickens indeed!

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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B
(Curate)
10/22/02 08:32 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

Excellent point, Striker!

It is unlikely that he stumbled upon the Heart while in the outer planes. I am curious to learn more. If only there was a way to find some more information concerning his disappearance.

This may be a bigger mystery than the Dwemer.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Commandante
(Layman)
10/22/02 09:28 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yagrum Bagarn] 

Is it not possible that there is something more to Divayth Fyr than any one of us could even begin to fathom? Maybe he hides some deep secret, maybe not. If you are right Tegger, that Lord Fyr is at least 4,000 years old, that is older than calculations I�ve seen on the Tribunal themselves! Does that not point to something? Maybe he knows more than he lets on, maybe he is exactly who he says he is. It was said somewhere that the mere age of the Tribunal makes them god-like, If Lord Fyr is older than them, does that not mean that he is also god-like? If this were the case, then we have nothing to fear from his fully voluntary absence, but be it not, then we should all be deeply disturbed by the potential loss of such a great mind. Of course, who am I to prod into the habits of an eccentric old wizard?

And one more thing, how exactly is Fyr pronounced anyway, fire, fur, or fear?


------------------------------------------------------------
Is the King of mediocrity the best of the average?
Or does he lie at the center of all?
------------------------------------------------------------

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/22/02 09:39 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Commandante] 

Master Fyr is but a mortal, who's life is extended by the magical arts. He will succumb to old age eventually, and if he is killed, then he will not return.

The Tribunal are/were sustained by the Heart, and if a member was killed, they would return.

Also, I've always pronounced it more like 'fur'. Don't know if it's right or not.

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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KaliMagdalene
(Acolyte)
10/22/02 10:43 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

If Divayth Fyr has not succumbed to old age in 4,000 years, he seems unlikely to succumb in the next 4,000. For immortals (divine or otherwise) the most likely cause of death is foul play or accident. Divayth Fyr strikes me as the type unlikely to fall afoul of an accident while in the midst of such delicate work.

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Dracodrakonis
(Acolyte)
10/23/02 12:47 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

The heart in the outer planes, hummm, I doubt it......... a back lash of the tonal energy could possibly propel it into such a state (or any other state for that matter......read as anywhere). But as some of the lower echelons (ascended sleepers and below) in the 6th house remain unaffected and continue to reconstitute(after a period) after having been dispatched to Oblivion (killed), I would be disposed to a line of thinking that the location of the heart is somewhat more terrestrial, and/or somewhat more localized......could just be me though

I do have a sub-theory on the 6th house and their continued pessence, that somehow the ash statues(or something else) may be sustaining them, they were drawn to them it seems. I have been destroying ash statues everywhere I find them but this seems to not have any effect. I guess I'll have to see if completely clearning out Telasero and cleansing it of all Sixth House pressence will have an effect. I'll have the temple see if they can prepare a ritual for this.


...... Ohhhh Temple Guys.....................

<Temple = Devs/Admins>

1) Life is the Greatest Bargin you get for Free.
2) You get what you pay for.

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Raptor1313666
(Acolyte)
10/23/02 12:52 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: KaliMagdalene] 

Hmm, but I have heard it said that there are much fouler things outside this mortal plane than the mind can even hope (or fear) to fathom. While I trust Lord Fyr's ability to handle threats here . . . I question his abilities to handle the things 'out there'.

Then again, Sotha Sil did seem a little 'perturbed' at Divayth's discourse with us. His last statements did have an air of menace about them . . .

No, I dare not even suggest it . . . do I?

-Raptor

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

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KaliMagdalene
(Acolyte)
10/23/02 01:53 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Raptor1313666] 

<<<No, I dare not even suggest it . . . do I?>>>

No more than I did. Or rather, did not.

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Striker
(Disciple)
10/23/02 02:06 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: KaliMagdalene] 

Let's just hope that Sotha Sil didn't do anything to Master Fyr. If this is the case, and with their link the the Heart severed, his end is very much near!

-Striker

Helper: Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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B
(Curate)
10/23/02 06:42 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Striker] 

In reply to:

Part of Sotha Sil's Comments to Divayth Fyr:

"Curiosity is an odd thing. It is a bright path surrounded by brambles."

"You are an interesting creature, my friend, and I would not wish you ill. I implore you take greater care with your words. The mortal mind is easily fractured by the divine."



Certainly, these words can be perceived as a threat toward Divayth or merely just a warning to be cautious. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that Master Fyr is missing.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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kalniel
(Curate)
10/23/02 10:19 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

The observant pupil who noted the lack of Heart in Fyr's dissappearance deserves more thought on the subject. If indeed the cause of the dissappearance is the same, then it suggests kagrenac did not actually use the tools on the heart, and thus such a journey was deliberate.

Is this trip into Oblivion only one way?

Kalniel

OOC: I've always pronouced Fyr like 'fear'

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kalniel
(Curate)
10/23/02 11:17 AM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

"You are an interesting creature, my friend, and I would not wish you ill"

I think he means this honestly. Or at least, Sotha Sil would not be the source of the ill.

"The mortal mind is easily fractured by the divine"

I suspect he is referring to our minds as much as Fyr's - that knowledge of the divine facts would be dangerous/ill for us mere pupils.

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Yagrum Bagarn
(Layman)
10/23/02 04:17 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: kalniel] 

I do not feel that it was Master Sil's intention to harm Master Fyr (fear). My belief is that he indeed wished only to remind Master Fyr of the dangers involved in such research, given that Master Sotha knows a considerable amount more of these Tools and the Heart. Although Master Fyr journeyed to the Outer Realms, it is unlikely that the Heart has also ventured there. I do not think Master Sotha stubborn enough to attempt such a folly act as to weild these Tools upon the Heart even if it were there. Remember, he is a gatherer of information, not a pioneer to physical discovery.

In my heart and soul, I know Master Fyr to be quite unscathed and well being. He is far too wise to try anything absurd or to even be harmed by petty obstacles in the way of his research. Azura forbid something comes in the way of Master Divayth's work. May Dagon have mercy on your lost soul.

I shall keep you all posted of Master Divayth's disappearance. Worry not though, for he is more of a man than any mortal can wish to be.

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B
(Curate)
10/23/02 07:18 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: Yagrum Bagarn] 

Thank you, Yagrum Bagarn.

Please let us know if there is any new information or if there is anything we can do to assist.

~B

Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Procurer of Rare and Astonishing Artifacts for The Modern Adventurer

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Theodoret
(Acolyte)
10/23/02 08:07 PM
Re: Dwem a little Dwemer of me (speculation/spoiler?) [re: B] 

Crazy conspiracy theory no.1 - Divayth Fyr and Sotha Sil are one and the same