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Thoughts about Daedra

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Joined: 07/14/2010

Sithis is "a state of nothingness and constant mutation."  Sithis can not become anything. So, it is nothing.

 

We'll leave the Creation Myth where it is - a myth. However... Padomay is the quintessential form of change. It can change, but it can not create. We can say the exact opposite about Anu, which is the quintessential form of stasis.

I do not think the creation of Oblivion's Daedric planes is accurate. Aedra sacrificed themselves - gave parts of themselves for the creation of Mundus. Aedra are also aligned to Anu; creation means stasis. Daedra didn't want to sacrifice anything and still wanted to create.  Since they are alinged to Padomay - they should be unable to create, only to change. Right? No mortal can understand the thought of making without giving.

 

"They found that the ambitions and the passions of mortals are sometimes entertaining and beyond their expectation."

"Thus do the Daedra court and seduce certain amusing specimens of the Mortal Races, especially the passionate and powerful. It was also another satisfaction for the Daedra to steal or corrupt anything that the Aedra had created."

What Daedra don't (or don't seem to) "comprehend", is that "...Mundus was created, being a mix of both Anu and Padomay aligned et'Ada, and it is close to Sithis." 

 Is it close to Sithis because the stasis that the Aedra sprang is being constantly changed by the Daedra? The constant interplay of static and dynamic isn't the "Will of Sithis"?

 

Also, this quote is rather open for interpretations.

"Divide ye like your enemies, in Houses, and lay your laws in set sequence from the center, again like the enemy Corners of the House of Troubles, and see yourself thence as timber, or mud-slats, or sheets of resin. Then do not divide, for yet is the stride of Sithis quicker than the rush of enemies, and He will sunder the whole for the sake of a shingle."

    -Boethiah to the Chimer Exodus.

 

Boethiah seems to hint to "stasis" in order to avoid some sort of unwanted change. Not the removal of change, but hesitating enough so there can be something to change.

 

So far, there are some unaccounted for information about Sithis in his "active" participation in Mundus. Isn't Sithis a primordial state (of Chaos - Padomay?) and as such, behaves more as a force rather than a sentient divine being?

 

 

 

 

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Joined: 07/09/2010

Nice. Keep going.

Lady N's picture
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Joined: 06/26/2010

Lorkhan is a hypostasis of Sithis, who is a hypostasis of Padhome. Padhome can be seen/felt/interpreted via Sithis; Sithis can be seen/felt/interpreted through Lorkhan. As such, any active manifestation of 'Sithis' is truly Lorkhan. Lorkhan has no hypostasis to represent him, save the Shezzarines.

First thing that came to mind :shrug: doesn't have to do much with the Daedra

Proweler's picture
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Joined: 06/14/2010

random wrote:

Hey old friend!

It's been 36 hours without sleep now (insomniac) so this is going to be a bit jumbled and without solid explanation. I'm also flogging a really old horse, but you might recognize it. 

1. The Sithis of the Darkbrotherhood is Lorkhan. There is no dark Lord, no will, no identity. Even if there was, the Aurbis being the interplay of Sithis | Padomay with Anuiel | Anu would render us incapable of observing anything about Sithis without also observing Anuiel. As such they are primordial forces.

2. The interplay started out as a chaotic jumble. From the Heart of the World, we have that Auriel brougth order to the flux and it seperated into Aetherius and Oblivion. Then from Vehks teachings we have that Lorkhan yearned for a return to the flux.

3. Now here is the elphant in the room. Because of the Aedra and Daedra we think that Aetherius is associated with Anu and Oblivion with Padomay. Yet the actions of Auriel and Lorkhan suggest that the seperation of the Aurbis and its flux like states are actually the ideals! For Auriel and Lorkhan it's not the compounds of that matter but their state. Implicitly the same goes for Anuiel | Anu and Sithis | Padomay.

4. Yet this is all completely unsatisfactory. The world was created by the interplay between two forces. Everything in it should be a manifestation of that interplay. As seperation and flux are both states of the particulair interplay they can not be atributed to these individual forces.

5. Personally I resolve this by seperating Anu from Anuiel and Sithis from Padomay. There is some presedent for it Vehks teachings where Anuiel and Sithis are the souls of Anu and Padomay aswell as the Heart of the world were Sithis and Anuiel are part of Anu's psyche. As such I picture Anu as the stored up potential, magicka, essence of Aetherius and Padomay as the void needed to act out that potential. Sithis then becomes the force that seeks to act out all potential (constant actions, chaos), where as Anuiel is the force that seeks to seperate them (no action, stasis).

6. If you were to draw this out, the line of opposition between Anu and Padomay would be ortogonal to that of Anuiel and Sithis. The state of the Aurbis would be represented as a V shape with the tip of the V pointing towards Sithis. The tip represents the initial state of the Aurbis and that of Mundus, balance between Anu and Padomay. The legs then represent the state between the flux and the creation of Mundus, close to Anuiel a seperation between the elements of Anu and Padomay.

7. This setup helps to explain why the Daedra are almost unchanging where as mortals are flexible. Like the Aedra the Daedra are creatures of Anuiel, they became so by accepting Auriels gift of immortality only to be robbed of their wealth, the creatia that allowed flux (and then they call Lorkhan a traitor!) .

 

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Joined: 07/07/2010

I've yet to come across a situation where the 'Daedra change, Aedra create' rule is useful. All creation is change and all change is creation. Like the 'Daedra are Padomaic blood, Aedra are mixed Padomaic and Anuic blood,' it is often taken out of context and confusing. It's probably better to look at the specific workings of Aedric and Daedric creations. The Aedra, who are Anuic, contain all the potential of existence and life within themselves. To create Nirn, they sacrificed themselves. The Daedra don't need to sacrifice anything to have their own realms, but the Nu-mantia intercept tells us that they build their worlds with matter collected from Aetherius. So they are creating, not just changing, but they can't make everything out of whole cloth.

Sithis is only ever a divine being when appropriated by the Dark Brotherhood. Otherwise he is some sort of stand-in for the Padomaic ideal. And that idea should be very happy with Nirn, with its creator deity Akatosh-Lorkhan divided against himself and locked in a constant, self-destructive duel.

The other use of Sithis is for describing the chaotic nothingness that came before the first brush of Anu and Padomay. The Altmer would call that state of nothingness Anu. But think about it. Matter locked up in potential energy, completely inert so no life or movement can exist? Or matter twisting around and transforming itself so fast that nothing can take shape for even the tiniest measure of time? Who can tell one oblivion from the other? They might as well be the same thing.

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Joined: 07/09/2010

"all change is creation"

Hmm. Emperor Semanticus might point out that change can also come from dis-creation.

Emperor Splitting-Heirs might point out that change can also come from discovery of something that heretofore was unknown.

Emperor Generalization sits there and ponders in a general way.

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Joined: 07/06/2010

 Stasis, change, order, and chaos are the biased interpretations from cultures that insist one is better than the other.  When you pare Anu and Padhome down to the essentials, they are IS and IS NOT.  When considering who "created" a sculpture, the provision of the clay is deciding what IS the sculpture, and the winnowing of the clay down to a figure is deciding what the sculpture IS NOT.    Neither is more or less essential to creation.

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Joined: 07/14/2010

Well, of course interpretations are biased!

 

Look at what Mankar Camorran stated: Tamriel is Lorkhan's Daedric Plane of Existence. This looks promising. Why?

 

"Mundus is the plane or realm of existence that encompasses Nirn" 

"Oblivion - the realm of Daedra that surrounds Mundus and covers it from Aetherius"

 

Lorkhan is viewed as an enemy, at least by the Mer races of Tamriel. As such, he is accredited with the conceptuation of Mundus, not just Tamriel. Tamriel is a continet, Nirn is the planet and Mundus is the entire plane of existence - I guess Mankar Camorran was just bluffing. Or is he?

 

There was only Oblivion and Aetherius before the et'Ada, no? So Lorkhan is the reason why Daedric Planes existed.

How he wanted to make Mundus is Daedric, he may be considered a Daedra, yes. He didn't want to participate in its creation - at least "physically".

 

Aren't both Daedra and Aedra et'Ada - Original Spirtis - the first "creation" from the interplay of Anu and Padomay?

There shouldn't be any difference except their active participation. Lorkhan is considered et'Ada, maybe even a Daedra - let's just say that Mundus is indeed a Daedric plane of existence. Because of his "mutilation", he wasn't able to take over it. It's just a Daedric Realm with no Prince - no Daedra. Aedra made sure of that. Some of them became the Earthbones ("rules") so that stasis would become the preferred outcome. Mundus' Daedric intent maybe ... angered the Aedric principles?

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Joined: 07/02/2010

random wrote:
Mundus' Daedric intent maybe ... angered the Aedric principles?

And that's why Lorkhan is missing, so Nirn's creatures may have hope. Without Sithis, they would die of despair, which is called Anuiel.

 

Which I suppose you could call this hope, freedom, the spirit of Nirn.