Skip navigation
Library

Reincarnation in TES

21 replies [Last post]
Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

In The Elder Scrolls, how does reincarnation work? This question came to mind when I was playing Morrowind and got to the part where you get Moon-and-Star. This led me to the question because you play as Nervar Incarnate. So, how come the other incarnations are able to have a spiritual form?

Offline
Joined: 09/15/2015

From what I've played through and read, including a quick search of the library using the terms "reincarnate" and "incarnate", each source points directly to the prophecy of the Nerevarine. That, save one other source wherein a lovely and flamboyant jester from Skyrim uses the word to describe himself as the incarnate of laughter. (1)

In TES, it seems like reincarnation does not actually play any role other than a religious explanation of the prophesy being fulfilled in Morrowind. All spirits, ghosts, and other souls you encounter on the various planes in Mundas, Oblivion, and beyond, seem to have only one actual identity. Some people are able to revisit the mortal world in spirit form, but none are re-born. It is my opinion that the ashlanders' prophesy about the hero of Morrowind was indeed given by divine help, but misunderstood a reincarnation of Nerevar for something different entirely. Perhaps just another soul with a compatible energy that would not fail in the trials leading to defeating Dagoth Ur.

 

1. Cicero's JournalL Volume 4

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/10/2012

When destiny overrides and/or manipulates the Dreamsleeve (by way of the Earth Bones possibly), incarnation happens. Let's see, there's a post MK did somewhere. 

Here it is: Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you.

Then you get into the Buddhist and Jataka undertones in ES cosmology. ie Being reincarnated and failing, Shezarrines, etc.

 

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

So pretty much, the TES reincarnation system is different from our understanding of it?

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/27/2010

The answer is "maybe." The answer is usually "maybe" when you get into metaphysical concepts. The devs purposely leave them vague and multiple choice.

Padomaic_Spectrometer's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/15/2015

To take it outside of the context of Morrowind and placing it in a general view, reincarnation as I understand is theorised to be related to the Dreamsleeve, at least with peoples who have originated from the Ehlnofey. Memory is deposited in the Dreamsleeve before souls return to Mundas to begin a new life, devoid of recollection from the last. Which I'm sure you can find parallels in a lot of real life religions. 

Padomaic_Spectrometer's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/15/2015

My understanding one theory of reincarnation is that it common among all mortal beings. Upon death, souls find their way to the Dreamsleeve and Memory is diffused into its infinite grasps. Then, the soul returns to Mundas, with a brand new life without recollection of the last.

This has exceptions however. Extraordinary circumstances such as an acceptance into Sovngarde or a Daedric Realm by a Prince will break the cycle. Very rare events such as an Amaranth will obviously break this cycle as well.

Another exception to the Dreamsleeve are the Saxhleel. They, through not only their beliefs and theories written about them, are known to be reincarnated by the Hist themselves, and are not connected to the Dreamsleeve metaphysically. 

Offline
Joined: 10/23/2015

>>>While I can't remember sources off the top of my head, I also had the understanding of the dreamsleeve as the previous poster. I guess the short answer is: Typically, it doesn't. Creatures, Men, or Mer are not ever reincarnated in the form they once knew. Also, I think the ghosts exist only if their soul has been denied entry to sovengarde, a daedric realm, or failed to be recycled into the dreamsleeve for whatever reason.

Ashlander Scholar's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/22/2016

Do any of you think that the Nerevarine could still be alive in Akivir? 

Proweler's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/14/2010

Dunmeri Lore Scholar wrote:

Do any of you think that the Nerevarine could still be alive in Akivir? 

Only you can know. You were the Nerevarine. We don't even know what race he was.

Proweler's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/14/2010

Cordate wrote:
So, how come the other incarnations are able to have a spiritual form?

Never thought about that. That said,  I think you might  be talking to yourself. As if the part that makes up your identity has multiple connections to the world. Multiple souls. Kinda like the Aedra can fight themselves in Shor son of Shor.

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

*gets flashbacks to Avatar: the Last Airbender*

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

Cordate wrote:

*gets flashbacks to Avatar: the Last Airbender*

Okay so at first I meant that kind-of jokingly but now that I actually thought about it and read up on the whole Avatar thing in the series, I started thinking that maybe it's something similar.

For an example, in the Avatar universe, the Avatar is able to communicate with the spirits of his/her past lives, such as Aang did with Roku. Maybe the Nerevarine was somewhat similar to that..?

Proweler's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/14/2010

I dunno. Avatar never went into it much what it exactly is that reincarnates.  Neither does the Elderscrolls but at least we've got more examples of people doing it which allows us to make some inferences.

You're asking the right questions, but to get them answered you'd have to gather up everything about souls, reincarnation, Deadra being reborn, people selling their souls to Ddaedra, people getting stuck in soul gems, the afterlife and try and fit it all together. It wouldn't be an answer but it would at-least be well educated.

 

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

On it

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

Cordate wrote:

On it

Well, I'll draw the line around ESO unless I actually *need* to go into it

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

Now that I think about it, that includes Just, doesn't it?

Edit: *Hist

Proweler's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/14/2010

Rome wasn't build in a day and they didn't start with the Pantheon. :)

I can help you start a little bit. To wit these are all the all the bits regarding souls, afterlife, ect.

Arena:

  1. Got zilch.

 

Daggerfall

  1. Souls can escape soul gems
  2. Souls can be trapped.
  3. Lysandus ghost does something.
  4. The God Arkay, does stuff to manage mortal afterlife and protects souls.
  5. It is a cycle of life and dead.
  6. Mantella resides in Aetherius (and Sheogorath shows up there, wtf)

 

Battlespire

  1. Ideal masters. Soul cairn.
  2. In the 'dead'-endings you can swear loyalty to the Sharda Fay (sp?) and become immortal while she tortures you for eternity.
  3. The Battlespire is its own realm in Oblivion kept in place by magicka. If you destroy the anchors is collapses.
  4. Mehrunes Dagons speech about Daedra reincarnation.

 

Redguard

  1. Izara in the soulgem
  2. Redguards going to the Far Shores when they die.

 

Morrowind

  1. Nerevarine incarnates multiple times, talks to himself.
  2. You can talk to various, rather confused, ghosts
  3. Dunmer ancestors are bound to protect ancestral tombs, not much of an after life
  4. Lunar currency in the Sermons
  5. The Waters of Oblivion. About Daedra not dying but going through some process.
  6. Monomyth has it that et'Ada can sidestep the eating of the world by going at right angles.
  7. Darkest Darkness describes how Daedra can either be summoned for a short while or come permanently through some ritual (presumably involving a portal).
  8. Daedra respawn with their memories intact but the process isn't pleasant. Mortals reincarnate without their memories.
  9. Feyfolken has enchanted items with a mind of their own.

 

Oblivion

  1. Black soulgems.
  2. More confused ghosts
  3. Ghost of the blades mention they go to Aetherius
  4. Mythic dawn cultists respawn in Paraside as if they were Daedra. The Mythic Dawn commentaries have a thing about giving up your connection to "mother nirn" and entering the service of Lord Dagon.
  5. Mankar created paradise as a realm in Oblivion. It collapse at the end.
  6. Followers of Sheogorath endup in the Shivering Isles.
  7. Black and Golden Saints are reborn through the waters of Oblivion and quickly find their way back through a 'light house'
  8. Daedra can enter permanently through portals.
  9. The barrier keeps Daedra out, but portals for mortals are easy and allowed.

 

Skyrim

  1. Sovngarde
  2. The Ideal Masters and the Soulcairn again.
  3. Souls of perytes followers getting stuck in Oblivion.
  4. The whole Dragonborn Dragonsoul thing.
  5. The guy living in Azura's star
  6. Getting partially soul trapped twice.

    Haven't played Dragonborn yet.

 

As a bit of personal speculation:

There is a thing too about the wheels of lull, the oceans being memory, Barbelith from the invisibles, and a few more things I can't remember there is the idea that the whole assembly of body, souls and the afterlife resembles a plasma sphere.

The soul is the blue connection, the part where it touches the outer sphere is the body, a soul gem, ectoplasm, an enchanted weapon, generally something physical. The centre is where the identity of comes from and what it will experience when it dies. This can be  an afterlife or a Daedric realm. What happens with its memories depend on the rules of the afterlife. The blue line is the connection between the body and its selected afterlife. Might as well call it the soul. It can connect to different worlds but plasma spheres don't form those complicated setups.

 

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

"A Tragedy in Black" mentions that the soul is what powers the enchantment so perhaps when the enchantment needs to be refilled, that soul gets destroyed

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

Interesting bit about the soul being like a plasma sphere. The explanation made me think about the Wheel. Maybe the souls resemble the universe, as we are all somewhat capable of reaching the Amarath. If this is the is the case, the hub, as you said, could be the soul, and the Rim it's vessel (a body or weapon or object). But all I can't figure out is the spokes. What would they be?

Cordate's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/15/2015

gscrean wrote:

From what I've played through and read, including a quick search of the library using the terms "reincarnate" and "incarnate", each source points directly to the prophecy of the Nerevarine. That, save one other source wherein a lovely and flamboyant jester from Skyrim uses the word to describe himself as the incarnate of laughter. 

In addition to that, Dagoth Ur's form when he was found at Red Mountain in the second era is called " a new incarnation" on UESP. Whether that should mean anything, as it's the website's wording, I'm not sure

Breizh's picture
Offline
Joined: 03/09/2016

 Yes, definitely. It is of course, purposefully, left vague, but my personal conjecture is that since Neloth does not mention the Nerevarine being non-Dunmer (which is most def something that would be mentioned if that was the case), the Nerevarine is/was Dunmer. If we take this as an established fact, he has an average lifespan of 200-300 years, which means even if he did not obtain immortality he would most likely still be alive by 4E 201.

 So yes, in my mind, there is no scenario where in the Nerevarine is not still alive.