Skip navigation
Library

Origins of the Katana

12 replies [Last post]
Pilaf The Defiler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/27/2010

Katanas, Tantos and Wakazashis are often referred to as being Akaviri in origin, but at least two famed Daedric weapons resemble Katanas as well.

 

In your opinion, did the Daedric designs originate first and were they copied by the Akaviri, or was it the opposite?

 

In my opinion the Akaviri designs came first and the Daedra copied them. Remember there's more than one reference to the Daedric Princes being fascinated by mortal culture. I believe that originally there weren't any humanoid lesser Daedra, or else they were unarmored and used crude weapons, but the Princes were so amused by the lifestyles and conflicts of mortals that they saw fit to reshape their lesser servants and equip them with imitations of the weapons and armor that mortals use.

 

Obviously with the superior ores and magicks of Oblivion, the designs were improved on more often than not, as is the case of Daedric ebony armor, or the sword Goldbrand, and its short sword rival Ebony Blade. If this is true it would be vague evidence that the Akaviri races are watched by and possibly have cults dedicated to Daedra as well - or at least Boethiah and Mephala. (Interesting to note these Daedra were closely associated with the Dunmer, a race that was directly impacted by the several attempted Akaviri invasions of Tamriel. Could the machinations of the Daedra Lords have had something to do with the Akaviri invasions?  Another of their amusing games?)

 

Interesting to note the inferior steel and iron imitations of these weapons made by smiths on Tamriel, as evidenced in the game Morrowind. However some excellent Ebony and Glass versions exist as well, probably engineered by the finest Dunmeri smiths.

 

 

Another thing I always wondered - do the Blades craft their own weapons and armor or simply maintain ancient Akaviri equipment left over from the Potentate era? The ancient Akaviri equipment at Pale Pass is in pitiful condition compared to the fine pieces worn by living Blades, who do employ a Smith as of the events of Oblivion. Is it possible the secrets of crafting a finely honed Katana were passed down by Akaviri smiths early in the history of the Blades? (I'm assuming the armor is not Tsaesci in design as they were stated to not be able to use armor or shields, or have a cultural bias against them. Perhaps it's a design that the Nord blacksmith assisting the Akaviri came up with, or maybe it was used by their human slaves or hybrid offspring. Maybe it was used by the Ka Po'Tun or the Tang Mo, or one of the other races of Akavir like the Dog or Rat men who sometimes accompanied armies?)

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

My opinions:

 

1: I think that the designs for the weapons came from Akavir, but the armor was likely a later invention from when the Akaviri and Tamrielic peoples mingled.

 

2. My thoughts on Daedric katanas are that, perhaps, Dunmer (or Chimer) who had fought Akaviri may have taken the exotic weapons as trophies, and their own weaponsmiths may have made ebony imitations with their own ores. These may have occasionally been given up as offerings at shrines before the ritual that turns ebony into daedric equipment. This led to the Ebony Blade and Goldbrand specifically, when the Deadra Princes added a bit of their own essence into the offered weapons. Since the Imperials stress efficiency over craftsmanship, you are likely right in Morrowind's iron and steel ones being cheap Imperial imitations. My own opinion is that the personal weapons of the Blades may in fact be ancient katanas, at least some of the time, and their newer ones would be specially crafted. This is the Blades after all, and they don't go in for half-measures. 

 

I'll think about this more when I'm at work. It's got some fun ideas.

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/27/2010

Could an Ebony sword really be turned Daedric, though?  Without melting down the metal and reworking it? It's implied in several sources that the creation of Daedric armor is a long, complicated and painful process. I'd think that most Daedric weapons and armor are made in Oblivion. It's implied they're nearly impossible to even repair or maintain on Nirn except under a special moon, etc.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 I wish I could remember what book it was, but I thought I read somewhere that an ebony weapon is used as the base that said long, complicated painful process works around. The same book that implied that daedric weapons are the lowest echelon of daedric beings. 

 

EDIT: The book "Heavy Armor Repair" is the one with the moon phases, but not the other thing.

 

EDIT EDIT: I'm not sure if I was thinking about the Bound Weapons in Ken Rolstons Posts, but I could have sworn that there was something to do with Ebony in this.

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/27/2010

I'm pretty sure Daedric weapons and armor are made of Ebony..but more like, raw Ebony or some equivelent in Oblivion. Maybe Dagon's blood is very similar to Lorkhan's blood or something. I don't think they magically infuse pre existing armor or weapons though. I think the souls actually go into the molten metal as it's being shaped.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

Yeah, being put in during forging sounds a lot more convincing, but this is gonna bother me like hell now that I can't find it.

Lady N's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010

It was in the Codex section of elderscrolls.com, which is no longer there. The quote: 

Quote:
Daedric weapons are made from ebony which has been refined using the craft and magical substances of the lesser minions of Oblivion. The process is not a pleasant one for the Daedra involved, and the weapons retain echoes of preternaturally prolonged suffering endured during manufacture. Daedric weapons are the most rare and expensive weapons known in Tamriel.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 Ah, thank you very much. That was it exactly. It seems to have crossed over in my brain with Ken Rolston's bit on bound weapons, but that is what I meant.

 

"Refined using the craft and magical substances of the lesser minions of Oblivion" sounds pretty much like what you were saying, Pilaf. They must alter the ebony itself before the actual weaponsmithing.

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/27/2010

That's probably exactly what it means. When you use the word refining in reference to any type of metal working, that's almost always at the stage where the substance is molten. I actually work with metal for a living, as part of my job. We don't craft the actual metal but we make parts with it, but a while back we had an issue with one of our suppliers sending us in iron that wasn't properly refined. Magnesium was supposed to be added to it during the smelting process, but someone neglected to do that, resulting in "grey iron", an inferior product.

 

I would imagine the process of crafting Daedric armor and weapons is similar, at the metal working level. The raw Ebony or what passes for a similar substance in Oblivion has to have the catalyst added to it at the proper time and temperature - in this case, the soul of a lesser daedra. You'd probably have to be a Daedric smith of a sentient race like a Dremora to craft this armor., Otherwise you'd have to be an extremely powerful mortal sorcerer with access to the right tools and under a red moon.

 

 

So we can conclude from all this that more than likely, whether the Akaviri katanas came first or the Daedric ones, the Daedric ones were probably crafted in Oblivon and weren't converted from pre existing Ebony ones. (Ebony Dai Katanas are fierce weapons in their own right if I recall correctly. Their stats were only slightly lower than the Daedric ones in Morrowind, and they were somewhat lighter.)

 

I'm personally still of the opinion that the Daedra copied the mortal weapons and armor. It's stated in more than one source that the Daedric Princes are fascinated by mortals and their lives, and find their own servants boring by comparison. Is it conceivable that the Princes encourage some of their more humanoid minions to adopt some of the tools and habits of mortals to be more amusing to them?  Or perhaps a race like the Dremora figured out on their own and became jealous, and learned the arts of crafting to be like "Hey, master, look at us! We do amusing things, too!" 

 

 

The one argument that could be made in favor of Daedric items being the originals is that they're much stronger than ones made on Nirn as a rule of thumb. However, that doesn't necessarily imply originality. It could simply mean that due to their high intelligence, longevity and access to stronger types of ore, the Daedra improved upon existing designs. The Tsaesci make fine and powerful blades indeed with cutting edges that can slice through armor like butter, but they don't have the benefit of containing godsblood or the souls of daedra. Take an already excellent design and add those elements into its crafting and it's no wonder the Daedric versions are feared and valued. Seeing a guy like Bolvyn Venim charging at you full speed with a Daedric Dai Katana sort of makes you appreciate the finer things in life and the good times you've had, in case you don't survive.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 Just found this here while playing thrpough Morrowind in the Salit caverns. In it, apparently authentic Akaviri weapons are comparable to the Daedric counterparts found in Tamriel in terms of expense. Which might say a little about the steel and ancient ones we find in Morrowind and Oblivion.

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/27/2010

Jeroic wrote:

 Just found this here while playing thrpough Morrowind in the Salit caverns. In it, apparently authentic Akaviri weapons are comparable to the Daedric counterparts found in Tamriel in terms of expense. Which might say a little about the steel and ancient ones we find in Morrowind and Oblivion.

 

 

Comparable?  The way I read it, the original Akaviri ones far surpass the Daedric ones in both price and crafsmanship, which is a remarkable feat indeed. In that case I doubt we've ever seen an authentic one yet, just imitations. I'd hate to run upon a master swordsman from Akavir with the real thing.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 Ah, right, sorry. I was distracted. A master swordswoman who can afford a Daedric katana considering an authentic Akaviri blade so expensive as to find the idea of owning one laughable is a bit different from "comparable."

 

I wonder if that's because of weapon quality or rarity value, though?

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/27/2010

The way it's worded mentions the craftsmanship as well, and the inflection I read makes the Daedric sound like a pale imitation, which would support my initial theory.