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The Nature of Nirn's diseases

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I’ve noticed a trend with a lot of the Princes that they take great pleasure in bestowing ‘blessings’ upon the mortals in the form of death or inflicting death, particularly in the form of diseases and other forms of illnesses. Molag Bal and Clavicus Vile introduced vampirism through the diseases such as, Porphyric Hemophilia, Sanguinare Vampiris, and Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, Hircine inflicts his followers with lycanthropy and it’s variations, and Sheogorath through the various mental illnesses his office rules over. And, of course, let us not forget Peryite who’s title is the Lord of Pestilence and has even created a cult of The Afflicted in Skyrim. It may also be safe to say that the other princes have influence over other forms of disease as well, on of the more obvious examples being Sanguine’s possible power to infect mortals with sexually transmitted diseases given that his sphere of influence is related to sex.

All these diseases are a cause of much distraught and pain throughout the world but can also give strength and a sense of community to those who are inflicted by it, finding kinship with others who are infected when the rest of the world naturally rejects them. Which makes me question whether the rest of the diseases in Nirn are also ‘gifts’ brought about by the Daedra or even if they are all somehow Daedric in nature. It may help to understand this question further if we knew whether or not these illnesses are magic in nature, influential through the mysterious energies that course through the TES universe, or if they are biological in nature like in real life and the people of Nirn just lack the technologies and knowledge to study it in detail like we can through microscopes and such. 

I believe it may be  that they are like a combination of both. The magic part being how the magic in the diseases influence the magic inside a Nirnling’s body and the biological part being how the now influenced magic changes the nature, structure and health of the host so that they transform into a form that is suitable for the disease to thrive in. Like, for example, with vampirism and lycanthrope, both diseases that turn the host more feral, make the infected more likely to spread the disease through bites and contact while it feeds. 

I think it should also be discussed that if the Princes are capable of inflicted diseases, could their Aedric counter parts be capable of inflicting them as well? Are there any examples you can think of that may be Aedric in nature? And what of the other, more common diseases people can catch from wildlife, such as Witbane and the Rattles?

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Interesting idea and it certainly brings Namira closer to a concept than a personality. See, I like to view the princes as being embodiments of something much more elemental, like Dagon literally being natural disasters incarnate. This is why I believe they are as important to the wheel as the Aedra, that the gaps in the wheel are just as relevant as the spokes, albeit slightly more negative but equally essential.

So having Namira being the progenitor of diseases, as hinted in The Beggar Prince, is pretty cool. So while the diseases have now become biological in nature, they may have started as tiny little microscopic deadra inhabiting a host :D After all, Wheedle's story dates back to the Dawn Era when the gods and demons strutted around causing mischief. Therefore the book could be a "malady creation myth."

I think the difference between the type of diseases we see Wheedle suffering from and the other types you mention such as the various vampiric strains and Canis Hysteria/Sanies Lupinus is that the latter groups affect the soul of the victim rather than just the body, bringing the disease out of Namira's realm.

As for what the Aedra can do, I'll err on the side of mythopoeia here. If enough people start believing Mara capable of inflicting disease then given enough time Mara's shrines and clergy may start inflicting diseases. It's a cop out, I know :)

 

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Eh, I'm not so sure about that idea. I don't think that the Daedric Princes are like that because I think it would imply that they are much more powerful than they seem to be and the resident of Nirn would not have been able to thwart their plans. I think it's more like the sphere's of influence they rule over have, in a way, always been around or have always been a part of existence and the Aedra and Daedra have become the god/goddesses of their sphere's because they were subjects that they were personalities were inclined towards. And I think that the Princes themselves are the major influence behind their spheres.

Think of it as that the Princes themselves are the heads of the body, they can see what's going on and make the decisions of how they would spread their influence. And the rest of their sphere is their body, composed of their realms, like organs, and their armies and followers, who act as the limbs. Kinda like the power structure that was established in the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion. After all, gods/goddesses can't count as much without people to believe them, take their truth as their own and in turn spread their influence.

But anyway, I'm getting off topic here XP But yes! That is what I was thinking as well, that diseases may have started off as like little daedra, branching off from the main body to influence another. And perhaps as time went on the Mundas was established, the little daedra/diseases branched off from each other and became even more diverse, taking on different shapes, effects on the body and some even effecting solely either the soul, mind and body.

And I think for the Daedra's case it may not be that they cause 'diseases' as we see them but cause inflictions that act very disease-like but are not classified as such because they either have no negative effects on the body or people just simply don't believe that anything Aedra produce could be bad because of their religions. Like I think it could be possible that maybe animal diseases, such as Witbane, could have been Kynareth's product as a way of killing off hunters. She also has the Spriggans act as her servants who can basically mind control animals and can project insect-like spells as seen in Skyrim. If those Spriggans can do that, I wonder what the Goddess of Nature could be capable of. Also, another thing to point out is that disease that this may be why disease in nature are much easier to cure than the more complicated ones such as vampirism because anyone can walk up to a Aedric shrine and by touching it they are cured. Perhaps it's the Aedra's way of bestowing forgiveness upon mortals who hunt their animals or commit some other sin, or maybe it's a way to manipulate them into relying on them more. I think I'll just leave that to interpretation.

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Bull of Kyne wrote:

So having Namira being the progenitor of diseases, as hinted in The Beggar Prince, is pretty cool. So while the diseases have now become biological in nature, they may have started as tiny little microscopic deadra inhabiting a host :D After all, Wheedle's story dates back to the Dawn Era when the gods and demons strutted around causing mischief. Therefore the book could be a "malady creation myth."

Nope. Namira is decay, Peryite is disease.

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I know your name from the Lorecast and the Redit, but I'll argue with you anyway :)

You'll notice I only used that one source, The Beggar Prince, to back my assertion. So in that book it clearly states that diseases were in her domain making my reply technically correct, the best kind of correct :D

Now, we can take this further by analysing multiple sources and spreading our books over the desks, or we can let it be and move on. The former sounds more fun...

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In the mood for some analyzing. :) How about you go first while I shift through my Lore Coprus Librium?

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
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Only leprosy and gangrene are associated with Namira, (due to their overly repulsive nature) not all diseases.  Usually it's just ones associated with beggars and the lower castes. Peryite is the Daedric Prince of Pestilence, but more specifically Zoonosis and disease origin. 

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In the mood for some analyzing. :) How about you go first while I shift through my Lore Coprus Librium?

I wasn't expecting you to actually accept my challenge... :D

Ok, so to start I'll use the source I already have before moving on to others. In The Beggar Prince, Wheedle recognises that Namira:

was the Daedric lord of all thing gross and repulsive. Diseases such as leprosy and gangrene were her domain.

The first part of that sentence makes it easy to imagine that all things gross and repulsive also includes diseases. Indeed, The Book of Daedra says she is:

associated with spiders, insects, slugs, and other repulsive creatures which inspire mortals with an instinctive revulsion.

I don't find it too much of a stretch to envision diseases as being things which fill mortals with "an instinctual revulsion." Now, I concede The Conqueror's assertion holds some water, that:

Only leprosy and gangrene are associated with Namira, (due to their overly repulsive nature) not all diseases. Usually it's just ones associated with beggars and the lower castes.

However, I'd also argue that if this were the case Namira would be unable to bestow upon Wheedle the gift of disease:

"I grant you the power of disease. You may choose to be afflicted with any disease you choose, changing them at will..."

So maybe it is more accurate to say that Namira's domain includes all parasitic diseases, parasites being microscopic crawling nasties well suited to the Scuttling Void. However, once parasitic and bacterial diseases are taken out of the picture, what does that leave Peryite?

Indeed, it is only since TES V Skyrim that the pestilence aspect of Peryite has been played up. Before that he was a "taskmaster", a daedra of order. However, I do think there is a distinction between Peryite's pestilence and Namira's disease. A pestilence is an epidemic while a disease can an isolated occurrence, like non infectious diseases.

 I assert that much like Kynareth's and Zenithar's spheres overlap, Namira and Peryite's realms overlap too.

Consider, Namira's diseases can spread but this spread is not what concerns her. Peryite, on the other hand, would be very interested in this spread, shaping it's coarse as he sees fit in order to bring about order through cleansing.

In summary then, Nanira is less interested with spreading disease as she is at instilling repulsion in mortals while Peryite likes to bring about cleansing change in the same manner as a forest fire does.

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Well, there are over seventy known diseases on Nirn. Only two are ever mentioned in Namira's sphere. Gangrene is caused by necrosis - hence the 'Lady of Decay' moniker - not parasites. In fact, parasites have been used for many centuries to cure/prevent gangrene. And while Leprosy is a bacterial infection, it is only zoonotic in armadillos, which Nirn lacks.

Also, technically, Wheedle was cursed with a sort of "custom made" disease hex. Any Daedra can create a curse disease e.g. Hircine, Molag Bal, etc.

Actually, it's rather easy to create disease and pestilence in ES lore. It's no wonder the "weakest" Daedra (Peryite) finds most of them in his realm. Even mortals create them inadvertently and posses the power to manipulate their properties through magic (Morrowind's 'Weakness to common disease' spell, nearly any 'Cure' spell).

Edit: It's never said why Peryite is the Prince of disease and pestilence, but it's easy to deduce so I'll go on ahead and connect the dots. As the taskmaster of the lowest rungs in Daedric society, he has limited responsibility among his peers. This correlates directly with his overall capabilities as a god. A Daedroth cannot be diseased, not in the mortal sense, so he has no power other than to his realm and in ordering around the lesser Daedric castes. When it's time to interact and play with mortals, like all princes desire, what can he choose as a sphere of influence? Something that's easy to do, due to his limited power, and something that hasn't been picked yet. That leaves the extremely unappealing, yet simple enough to master, domain of illness and plague.

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Hmm...okay, you two seem to be in the "Peryite is the Weakest Daedric Prince" argument - if you guys view him like that, you wont get that far with his character I'm afraid. Peryite's Ur-Sphere is Natural Order, which is Balance, which means that he is constantly trying to stabilize conflicting sides. He's the Middle Ground of Good and Evil, Life and Death, Fixed and Broken, etc. Pestilence is simply one of the greatest tools he can use to further his own goals; some diseases torment and kill, others heal and save. He's the default God of Karma, Revenge, Balance, Judicial Systems, and Hierarchy. If you want to learn more, a wrote an account on exactly how important he is and why he isn't the weakest Prince here:
 
Also, here's some evidence to support some stuff cause I can't really get into a good deep discourse at the moment.
 
"This one moves! A welcome change. So, mortal, you have found my shrine, and you have seen my followers. They are an embarrassment to me. The fools cast a spell in the hopes of summoning me to them. It was prideful and foolish, and it has had its consequences. My followers are trapped between worlds; their bodies here on this plane, their souls in Oblivion. I would have you reunite the bodies and the souls. I will transport you to the plane of Oblivion in which they are trapped. Find their souls. When all are collected, I will return you here. Return to me when you are prepared.
 
(The followers of Peryite were trapped in one of the small daedric realms in Oblivion. Then Peryite transported the Champion to the daedric realm. The Champion succeeded collecting all the souls, and then transported back to Tamriel by Peryite. Upon arriving back to Tamriel, Peryite rewarded the Champion with Spellbreaker.)
 
You have returned my followers, mortal. The natural order is restored, and for this, I thank you. Perhaps they have learned the folly of attempting to touch a Daedra Prince. Take this, with my blessing. May it bring you order."  - Conversations with Daedric Princes in Oblivion

Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, Peryite, Boethiah, and Vaernima are among the most consistently "demonic" of the Daedra, in the sense that their spheres seem to be destructive in nature. The other Daedra can, of course, be equally dangerous, but seldom purely for the sake of destruction as these five can. Nor are these previous five identical in their destructiveness. Mehrunes Dagon seems to prefer natural disasters -- earthquakes and volcanoes -- for venting his anger. Molag Bal elects the employment of other daedra, and Boethiah inspires the arms of mortal warriors. Peryite's sphere seems to be pestilence, and Vaernima's torture. - On Oblivion


"There is nothing beyond bliss, after death comes the void. Only then are we free to love. Figuring father Peryite would stamp it and catalogue it. And Mephala mother, embracing black hands, would smother it. Gods such as us must be gentle with all our children, both flesh and spirit, a seed-apple potpourri. [...] Silence is the command of the Aedra, the howling horror in the cavern of the heart, the laughter of Berahzic. Nocturnal's Black Skies, Peryite's Golden Order, Meridia's Green Generations, Mehrunes' Red Rage, the Sighs of Berahzic. O, her diamonds and crescents a crimson dawn over armies arrayed for battle, her dark and silent eyes the blinding snows of Solitude." - Sermon Zero


Telenger the Artificer says, “Eis Vuur! Of course, I'll collect that book as soon as I get back to my laboratory and have it sent to you by Black Horse Courier. I'll just need to find another object the right size to, er, prop up my lillandrilic calcinator. (Ahem.)

“The Thrassian Plague, scourge of the First Era, was known to the common people as the Slug Famine because the wriggling gastropods that carried the flesh-eating disease infected not just people, but livestock and wild animals as well. It's easy to see why one might associate the Plague with Namira or Peryite, as the Spirit Daedra's sphere includes slime and slugs, while the Taskmaster's includes disease and contamination. It's well known that the Sload traffic with the Princes, so the involvement of Namira or Peryite is quite credible. However, there is also the Pestilent Progeny Thesis of that reprobate Divayth Fyr, which postulates that the infectious slugs that invaded Tamriel were mutated versions of the Sloads' own infantile larvae. However, since the Plague was wiped out by Syrabane, we have no extant samples to test to determine which of these hypotheses is correct. Indeed, these theories are by no means mutually exclusive, and it could be that the truth lies somewhere in between. Only the Sload know for sure. Perhaps, Eis Vuur, in your wayward and peripatetic travels, you could stop off at Thras and ask them!" - A Loathsome Civilization Questions

Peryite, whose sphere is the ordering of the lowest orders of Oblivion, known as the Taskmaster. - The Book of Daedrahttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-book-daedra


"Your dungmer attracts noise as well as fleshflies,” she noted with her barbed tongue, eliciting a rasping chuckle from the lizard. “Perhaps Kishra-do will offer him a chiming bell to wear so he might alert all the woodland beasts?” I was about to explain we’d face no dangers in this neck of the woods, when a hissing squeal interrupted her insults. Kishra-do leapt up, swiftly reaching for her staff, and brought it down with considerable force, piercing straight through the head of a huge rodent. Its tiny red eyes glared up at us for a moment, before Kyne gathered up the skeever’s spirit to give to Peryite. - Morrowind, Kyne's Challenge


WRAITH | We followed an odd trail that Namasur had picked up in the lower forest, heading up into the high hills of ancient Auridon. The Redguard seemed puzzled, certain that the tracks were made from a fellow child of Yokuda (the footprints matched sandals his brethren sometimes wore). The way was thick with maple and larches, until a rough glade was spotted. Half-hidden among the tangle of trees and bushes, we uncovered a shrine to Peryite.

The High Elves had abandoned this overgrown monument long ago; the ivy and vines had weathered the remains of intricate carvings with their gradual rubbing, and saplings had sprouted from the stone itself. The shrine was choked by the forest's tendrils. Namasur seemed fascinated by the structure, pointing at some of the representations of the Altmer, and the story of a battle with strange, slug-like monsters he explained were probably Sload. This stonework was reminiscent of the Halls of Stories told by Nord masons along timeworn barrow walls. "Tu'whacca's mercy..." Namasur whispered to the Argonian. "See how the arch seems aligned to that mountain peak? I'd wager my sword that Masser grows brightest above this place on the summer solstice." Footfalls-in-Snow nodded with interest, and began to cut through a patch of brambles to uncover more of the fallen rubble, catching a glimpse of something odd: the edge of a circle in the ground, which seemed to pulse slightly with a faded light. - Summerset Isles, Kyne's Challenge

O'er the treetops, the worm takes flight,

'Tis no dragon, it is Peryite.
Like a shadow over country and city,
Comes the harbinger, Peryite.
Pestilence blooms with each wing beat.
For whom doth seek Peryite? - Mad God's Masque and Bellicose Ball

Peryite is the daedric prince of tasks, order and pestilence. He is considered one of the weakest of the princes, despite being depicted as a dragon. - Skyrim Loading Screens


Peryite’s pits have always been inaccessible to mortals. Our only real knowledge of them comes from reports of the other diabolical Princes. It is said that Peryite guards the lowest orders of Oblivion and that his summoners are to regard his likeness to Akatosh as some primordial and curious jest. - Imperial Census of Daedra Lordshttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/imperial-census-daedra-lords

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
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Uh, no. Peryite IS rather weak. He's the taskmaster of the lowest wrung of the Daedra. We're directly told he's considered one of the weakest in a Skyrim loading screen: "He is considered one of the weakest of the princes, despite being depicted as a dragon."

I already went as far as the character goes. He's the Daedric Prince of Disease due to him being a "weakling" with little responsibility. None of what you posted refutes this, actually it's the same sources that give multiple attestation to him being the Taskmaster of the lowest orders. While pestilence is powerful, like you say, it's also easy to produce as I've shown. Every Daedra can produce them through curses and humans make them as well. Taskmaster to mortals and lesser Daedra, isn't a huge responsibility when compared with the other spheres of influence. He's basically an extremely diluted Jyggy in this sense.

This is really only an "argument" to contrarians.

IceFireWarden wrote:

you wont get that far with his character I'm afraid. 

... Already farther than you are, I'm afraid.

IceFireWarden wrote:

 He's the default God of Karma, Revenge, Balance, Judicial Systems, and Hierarchy. 

A judicial system is positive law, which seeks authority from the government. Natural order seeks authority from natural law. So yeah, you don't know what Natural order is.
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Xarnac The Conqueror wrote:

Uh, no. Peryite IS rather weak. He's the taskmaster of the lowest wrung of the Daedra. We're directly told he's considered one of the weakest in a Skyrim loading screen: "He is considered one of the weakest of the princes, despite being depicted as a dragon."

I already went as far as the character goes. He's the Daedric Prince of Disease due to him being a "weakling" with little responsibility. None of what you posted refutes this, actually it's the same sources that give multiple attestation to him being the Taskmaster of the lowest orders. While pestilence is powerful, like you say, it's also easy to produce as I've shown. Every Daedra can produce them through curses and humans make them as well. Taskmaster to mortals and lesser Daedra, isn't a huge responsibility when compared with the other spheres of influence. He's basically an extremely diluted Jyggy in this sense.

This is really only an "argument" to contrarians.

IceFireWarden wrote:

you wont get that far with his character I'm afraid. 

... Already farther than you are, I'm afraid.

IceFireWarden wrote:

 He's the default God of Karma, Revenge, Balance, Judicial Systems, and Hierarchy. 

A judicial system is positive law, which seeks authority from the government. Natural order seeks authority from natural law. So yeah, you don't know what Natural order is.

Ha, you're farther than me with Peryite? Sorry soldier, but I'm going to call nope on that! :D I'm not going to lie - Peryite is the most underestimated and undermined Prince. Trust me, I know, I'm probably literally one of the few individuals in the lore community that gives any form of care about him (to the point where people ask me to about him whenever he gets brought up - and sometimes laugh at me when I don't say something, but that's a story for another time. :P). But one of the biggest problems is that people labeling Peryite as the underdog is one of the biggest misconceptions in the lore; he's definitely not the weakest of the Daedric Princes. In fact, there ISN'T a such thing as a weak Prince. It's different when you look at the Aedra, who literally lost pieces of themselves during Creation. Every single Daedra are at their full power, which is equal. "But if they're at full power, why are there Lesser Daedra and Greater Daedra then?" you may ask. That's because the only 'power' that's in Oblivion is political power. Being a Daedric Prince is largely a political position and one of extreme honor and respect. If you go off the Waters of Oblivion book included in Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO, the reason why the Seventeen Daedric Princes are 'Princes' is because they banded together and conquered/brought order to the chaotic warfare that was the Oblivion after Creation:

"A hundred and twenty numbered ages in the void that fated folk had grown deep-schooled in evil. Then the Bright Gods resolved to punish those faithless spirits, and shatter the unruly caitiffs, those huge, unholy scathers, loathsome to the Light. They repented exceedingly that they had gazed upon Oblivion, and seen there the first of dark kin, and welcomed them as brothers and sisters.
 
The Principalities of Victory beheld how great was the wickedness of the wayward spirits, and saw that they were bold in sin and full of wiles. They resolved then to chasten the tribes of daedra, and smite darkkind with hammer and hand.
 
But ever shall Darkness contest the Light, and great were the Powers that breathed the void and laid waste upon one another, and no oath might bind them, so deep were they in envy and perfidy. For once the portals are opened, who shall shut them upon the rising tide?"
 

The only reason why the Daedric Princes are in control of or even command anything is because they came in, they saw, they conquered, and then they restructured everything so it would actually make some sense. That gained them the respect of all the inhabitants of Oblivion. So to be honest all of that 'Gods have Power Levels' crap is nigh-bullshit when you approach TES; keep that stuff in Dragonball Z. In The Elder Scrolls, a mortal can kick a god and a god can fuck a sheep. When you see something comparing godly power in TES, look at power as less 'strength' and more 'influence'. The only reason why Peryite is looked at as the weakest prince is because his direct influence isn't felt as much on Nirn. Mehrunes Dagon? Hircine? Hermaeus Mora? Boethiah? Molag Bal? Azura? Those guys all have an almost insane amount of direct influence in many of the lives of the people of Nirn, either as their godly ancestors or as patron of a certain aspect of life or just as someone who wants to fucking break as much shit or cause as much trouble as they can. In a mortal mind that makes them seem pretty powerful; however, Peryite is one of the few Princes (along with Sanguine, Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal, and Namira) that largely keeps to themselves and doesn't interact with mortals often. The Taskmaster is honestly way to be busy structuring everything to give a care about the Nirn to the point of leaving a bigger part with its inhabitants. Because he doesn't display himself in a well known or grandiose matter, it's easier to say that Peryite is 'weak' instead of saying 'Peryite is just never around that much.' A good statement I made in one of my previous posts sums that up nicely:

"A common – but major – misconception is that Peryite is one of the weakest of the Daedric Princes. There is no true way to calculate the power of a god, especially the infinite strength and total immortality of the Daedra. But in some regards he can be seen as weak; for example, compared to the other sixteen Princes he seems ultimately unconcerned with Nirn. As stated earlier, however, his attentions are invested in making sure the Daedric common folk are doing what they are supposed to be doing. Despite this, he still makes time to observe mortals in the Mundus and spread his influence in both beneficial and hurtful ways. It is said that Peryite is constantly watching every being in the Aurbis, making sure that they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing. Those that have been able to communicate with the Blighted Lord and remain in a communicative state have said that he always greets the individual politely before telling them that he has been observing them for some time. Because of this, he is often able to pick out individuals to perform certain tasks for him."

When you look at Peryite's Ur-Sphere which is Natural Order, the balance of forces within a system which he maintains with disease - the problem is that a lot of people look at disease as just a physical "You got the cold! disease, when in reality pestilence when applied to Peryite has a far different and broader definition than that of a mere illness. Peryite is the Ada of Natural Order, the Mechanism That's Behind The Continuation of An Existing System. Pestilence is just one manner in which he does this. It's population control, making sure things don't get too out of hand. Not to mention MK told me he was the Shadow of Aka, the Balance created as a literal byproduct when Time formed in the Void.
 
And, your last point - "A judicial system is positive law, which seeks authority from the government. Natural order seeks authority from natural law. So yeah, you don't know what Natural order is." Ha, yeah, I do know what natural order is. A lot more than you it seems, to be completely honest. And instead of asking me what I meant by judicial systems (which you know, isn't hard to do), you decided to go full dick mode, which is perfectly fine. But by Judicial Systems I meant that Peryite, being the Balance of the World, is literally Judge, Jury, Lawyer, and Exectioner all at once. You're either doing what you're supposed to be doing, or you get corrected. Instantly. He is the Society's Limitations given form, the Establisher of Hierarchy on both the Lower, Middle, and Upper Classes (which also acts in a sort meta way because Oblivion is a hierarchical society giving him governance over the lesser planes, which allows him to keep them organized and not as chaotic as they were during the Dawn times). This leave him with little interaction with mortals. This is also the reason for the limited about of lore about him, he just isn't involved except superficially.
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LMAO, you're so far behind in the race you only think you're leading.

Peryite is considered one of the weakest Daedra.

Peryite is the taskmaster of the lowest orders of Oblivion.

Peryite is the Prince of Pestilence.

You misdefined Natural Order.

This is pretty much all I've said about the matter, other than a theory about why Peryite is who he is. These are all evidenced in the lore. So, I'm not sure why you attempted to talk to me like I didn't know what I was talking about. On the contrary, I've shown I know exactly what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, your post is one third red herring fallacy and another third appealing to authority.

I'll go with actual lore over misinformed contrarian theories that have no lore backing. You've added no sources I didn't already know about. You've posted nothing that refutes the above statements or anything I've said really. Also funny how you didn't read what I wrote.

Actually, it's rather easy to create disease and pestilence in ES lore. It's no wonder the "weakest" Daedra (Peryite) finds most of them in his realm. 

you two seem to be in the "Peryite is the Weakest Daedric Prince" argument

Not only were we not in the "Peryite is the weakest Daedric Prince" argument, but I put "weakest" in parentheses. I then go on to define said weakness as his lack of responsibility among Daedra, which we have evidence of.

As the taskmaster of the lowest rungs in Daedric society, he has limited responsibility among his peers. This correlates directly with his overall capabilities as a god.

He's taskmaster of the lowest castes in Oblivion, not all of them. 

IceFireWarden wrote:
you decided to go full dick mode, which is perfectly fine. 
Talk down to me, I talk down to you. 
 
That's all there is to Peryite. Actual lore, not head canon theories based on an all inclusive definition of Natural Order.
 
This god damn quote feature isn't working for me today. But basically, your post just reaffirms why he's considered the weakest. Also, it states things I've already said. That he has limited control and all his "natural order" is, is indiscriminate death that comes with illness. There is no evidence or sources claiming his interactions with mortals are anything more than that. Natural Order has a set definition, it doesn't include every balance and dualism in the universe.
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I find it funny yet odd you think that you think I was talking down to you and Caista when I all I said was you two seem to be in the Peryite being the weakest Daedra argument by reading what both of you wrote, and then inserting quotes to make way for what a better explaination once I had the time to do so. I don't even see how that was talking down to you, as I said 'seem' and not 'well, you guys are obviously idiots thinking Peryite is the weakest Daedra'. Now if I had said the latter then I would see why you'd be pissed at me, but the only thing I said is that by the looks of your texts that you guys seemed to believe that Peryite was the weakest Daedric Prince and therefore went and explained why I believe he isn't. If that offend you, then for better or worse I will apologize for that.

Your definition of 'actual lore' is what messes you up, because to ultimately understand the Taskmaster you have to dig deeper than what just the games and 'official documents' tell you. Yes, he is the Prince of Natural Order. Yes, he is the Prince of Pestilence. Yes, he is the Prince of Tasks. Yes, he Guards/Orders the Lower Planes of Oblivion. Yes, he is considered the weakest of the Princes. I never refuted any of that. What I was trying to tell you is that you have to think and about consider exactly why Peryite is the Prince of Natural Order and Pestilence, why do those extremely different concepts are meshed together with him. I'm just trying to get you to think deeper about him, because ultimately Peryite doesn't have - like you said - a lot of texts about him and therefore in order to really discuss him as a character we have to analyze everything concerning him. If you don't, you'll never truly understand him - hell, I'm probably one of the foremost guys on Peryite lore and even after updating his UESP page, writing loressays about his nature, and several pieces of apocrafiction about him I can honestly say I don't understand several factors of him yet. But I do know a lot, and what I've learned is through is gazing at what you call 'actual lore' and finding the hidden meanings in it. That goes for all lore as well - if we didn't do it, a lot of the shit we know now would've never been discovered or explained. As Vivec himself said: 

"'Ha, it means nothing!' After looking a second time he said: 'Hmm, there might be something there after all.' Finally, giving At-Hatoor's garments a sidelong glance, he said: 'Amazing, the ability to infer significance in something devoid of detail!'"

In the end, you're limiting yourself by viewing Peryite in a limited way. You have to approach it with an unlimited way or you'll mess up or miss out on something interesting. That's why I wanted to talk to Castia about his perspective, because although I pride myself on Peryite lore and don't really like others poking at it (and there's a lot of people in the lore community that have the same feeling for their own respective lore niches), I was willing to listen to his argument and have a nice debate with him.

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if you guys view him like that, you wont get that far with his character I'm afraid. 

I'd consider that talking down, especially considering what I've posted - which again has been nothing but sourced lore. I did "analyze" all sources, which is why my theory makes the least amount of assumptions.

There is nothing deeper (that we know of), which is why you can't source it. I'm not limiting anything, I'm just not adding my own head canon to the lore as if it was lore. I already went over why I think he is who he is. Your second to last post pretty much reaffirms my theory, it doesn't question it. He's taskmaster of the lowest orders, both on Nirn in terms of microscopic agents and in Oblivion. His natural law is the (sometimes) indiscriminate killing, and/or blessing, of mortals through these agents. Natural Order is a philosophy attested to his sphere. Limiting the definition of Peryite's influence based on the prescribed definition of Natural Order, isn't limiting my knowledge or understanding of Peryite, it's simply not adding in things we have no source for. A direct source, or from deduction. 

What really happened is you got mad at the weakness comment without reading how I defined that weakness.

 

Edit: No offence, but you played the ethos card when you should have matched logos with logos. Your posts are filled with irrelevant information. A third is you going on about what you did or didn't do on a forum. I've been here since Arena, and I don't need two paragraphs every post to say as much. Another third is snippets on introductory cosmology, which has no direct bearing on the posts I've made or your comments in regard to my posts. The relevant third is just repeating what I've said or making assumptions and going off on your own theories. Which is fine, but what did it have to do with anything I've posted?

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Wow guys, that's a lot of words :)

IceFire, out of all that info dump I have taken this away with me:

When you look at Peryite's Ur-Sphere which is Natural Order, the balance of forces within a system which he maintains with disease - the problem is that a lot of people look at disease as just a physical "You got the cold! disease, when in reality pestilence when applied to Peryite has a far different and broader definition than that of a mere illness. Peryite is the Ada of Natural Order, the Mechanism That's Behind The Continuation of An Existing System. Pestilence is just one manner in which he does this. It's population control, making sure things don't get too out of hand. Not to mention MK told me he was the Shadow of Aka, the Balance created as a literal byproduct when Time formed in the Void.

It seems we share a similar viewpoint:

...while Peryite likes to bring about cleansing change in the same manner as a forest fire does.

Such a huge amount of information requires more study than my quick glance. I feel I may have just been schooled :)

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
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This is what happens when drunk bards mistakenly challenge Rawlith Khaj masters in a duel.

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It may have escaped everyone's attention but this is IceFire at the start:

Nope. Namira is decay, Peryite is disease

This is me at the start:

Peryite likes to bring about cleansing change in the same manner as a forest fire does.

This is Zarnac at the start:

Only leprosy and gangrene are associated with Namira, (due to their overly repulsive nature) not all diseases.

This is IceFire at the end:

a lot of people look at disease as just a physical "You got the cold! disease, when in reality pestilence when applied to Peryite has a far different and broader definition than that of a mere illness. Peryite is the Ada of Natural Order, the Mechanism That's Behind The Continuation of An Existing System. Pestilence is just one manner in which he does this. It's population control, making sure things don't get too out of hand

So, kind of like a forest fire then guys?

;)

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Bull of Kyne wrote:

It may have escaped everyone's attention but this is IceFire at the start:

Nope. Namira is decay, Peryite is disease

This is me at the start:

Peryite likes to bring about cleansing change in the same manner as a forest fire does.

This is Zarnac at the start:

Only leprosy and gangrene are associated with Namira, (due to their overly repulsive nature) not all diseases.

This is IceFire at the end:

a lot of people look at disease as just a physical "You got the cold! disease, when in reality pestilence when applied to Peryite has a far different and broader definition than that of a mere illness. Peryite is the Ada of Natural Order, the Mechanism That's Behind The Continuation of An Existing System. Pestilence is just one manner in which he does this. It's population control, making sure things don't get too out of hand

So, kind of like a forest fire then guys?

;)

Hmm...I wouldn't say forest fire. That seems more like Mehrunes, and Peryite is a bit more subtle than him (as is a lot of other Daedra). I would think it's more along the lines of the 'can a tornado form in one place by a butterfly flapping its wings miles away' sort of thing, but in the sense of 'can a plague start by infecting one person miles away' (I may have phrased that a bit weird).

Xarnac The Conqueror wrote:

This is what happens when drunk bards mistakenly challenge Rawlith Khaj masters in a duel.

Two-Moons Dance is the preferable Rain of Sand style. Also, anyone can get their ass kicked in TES no matter how cool or strong you are. :P

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Just farther along is all. You'll get there one day, when you can form an argument without it being filled with fallacies.

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Considering what you have both said and about Peryite being disease and Namira being decay and placing that information in the context of The Wheel and gradients, is it fair to say that these two Princes/Concepts/Forces are the flip side of the same coin?

I am probably oversimplifying but I like the old schizophrenia idea of metaphysics: Anu is dreaming in the sun and thinks up the interplay between Anu and Padomay. These two think up Anuiel and Sithis, who in turn dream up Auriel (Akatosh) and Lorkhan. Once that happens and it rains Padomaic blood and Anuic blood and all that metaphor, the other gods and demons are just shards/drops of blood of these two original twins.

The identity of Peryite and Namira seem connected, so are they from the same shard/blood drop?

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IceFireWarden wrote:

Hmm...okay, you two seem to be in the "Peryite is the Weakest Daedric Prince" argument - if you guys view him like that, you wont get that far with his character I'm afraid. Peryite's Ur-Sphere is Natural Order, which is Balance, which means that he is constantly trying to stabilize conflicting sides. He's the Middle Ground of Good and Evil, Life and Death, Fixed and Broken, etc. Pestilence is simply one of the greatest tools he can use to further his own goals; some diseases torment and kill, others heal and save. He's the default God of Karma, Revenge, Balance, Judicial Systems, and Hierarchy.

"Peryite, whose sphere is the ordering of the lowest orders of Oblivion, known as the Taskmaster."

—The Book of Daedra

"The Greymarch is ended. For millennia this drama has unfolded, and each time, I have conquered this land, only to be transformed back into that gibbering fool, Sheogorath. It was not always so. Once, I ruled this Realm, a world of perfect Order. My dominion expanded across the seas of Oblivion with each passing era. The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness, doomed me to live as Sheogorath, a broken soul reigning in a broken land. Once each era, I was allowed my true form, conquering this world anew. And each time I did, the curse was renewed, damning me to exist as Sheogorath."

—Jyggalag

Because Jyggalag can only reclaim his duty as the Lord of Order once every era, Peryite has taken the burden of order and he should not be underestimated.

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Bull of Kyne wrote:

 

The identity of Peryite and Namira seem connected, so are they from the same shard/blood drop?

It's certainly a possibility. Or it could just be a coincidental overlapping due to the related nature of those they affect. Though they do have direct links to the Aedra, just as much as they seemingly do with each other. Kynerath giving Peryite Skeever spirits, Namira's connection to Lorkhan and by extension Shezarr, etc.

Also, it should be noted that Jyggy was "Perfect Order" while Peryite is "Natural Order." The former is an all inclusive balancing act, the latter is a lot more narrow in definition. It doesn't include things that derive their authority from common or positive law. Revenge, the judicial system, the kitchen sink, have nothing to do with natural law.

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Xarnac The Conqueror wrote:

Just farther along is all. You'll get there one day, when you can form an argument without it being filled with fallacies.

See, now you're the one that's doing it. :P To be honest, I think the main source of our argument was because I assumed something and then we both got into a shumbang-bang of dickery. Essentially, it was just a misunderstanding, which is the worst kind of instigator because it's unintentional and can result in massive levels of irritation and words. I've made valid and decent (at least, in my opinion :P) arguments and loressays without 'fallacies' before (my 'The Reason Why All Heroes Are Dicks Post' article is probably my favorite thing I've written, even over my Echmer material - although I'm definitely more proud of them), and I'm not going to stop. This thread, however, I think we both got a bit upset over something small and insignificant and reacted to it in an overly big way. And for that, I apologize.

Side Note (Response to the Rawlith Khaj Masters & Drunkards Comments): I don't think there is a such thing to be a 'true master' of lore, no matter what we do and try to achieve. At the end of the day new lore will conflict old lore, and new interpretations of old lore will unintentionally create new lore. The only thing I can say I'm a master of lorewise is Uutak lore, since I created the whole thing - and even then that's not true, because a lot of people have contributed to the Uutak Mythos in a way I didn't originally perceive and now the world-building project is even cooler. That's why I don't think there is such thing as canon, because canon is essentially the greatest upheld belief and not the actual truth)

To be honest, I always applied Balance to Natural Order, Peryite's Ur-Sphere, because that is how I always personally interpreted it. I always viewed Jyggalag's Perfect Order as an unwanted mutation, an unnatural need to 'clean' the slate so to speak in order to destroy the entirety of the Aurbis and replace it with...well, grey nothingness. The Crystal Knight tried to do that to Oblivion, which resulted in the other Princes restraining him by turning him into Sheogorath (who only went on to prove himself as even more of a douchebag). Peryite merely wants to keep things organized and functioning at a perfectly normal rate, neither abnormal or subnormal in nature. When I presented this to MK, he didn't really say anything against it (although that might have been on purpose) and told me about the Taskmaster being the Shadow of Aka, which makes a lot of since: he's the Balance produced by Time's creation, the literal byproduct of Aka's formation. Makes his role of disease caretaker a lot cooler too.

Tailin Sero wrote:

Because Jyggalag can only reclaim his duty as the Lord of Order once every era, Peryite has taken the burden of order and he should not be underestimated.

Peryite is definitely not Jyggalag's replacement. His Order just works differently from Jyg's, in a way that makes the Crystal Knight want to stamp it out of existence.

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I never said anything about lore masters. My Khajiit comment was saying you effectively argued with the wrong person, which you did. You misunderstood what I said, then pulled out a bunch of non sequiturs. I simply pointed this out. My first two posts in here weren't telling people they weren't going to get far with this concept or that Daedra, even though I may not have agreed with them. 

But, yeah, no hard feelings.

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Also, I'm not buying Peryite as the one who gave order to time. When Aka and by extension time were created it was unstable and non linear. It stayed this way for nearly an entire era, including after the creation of the mortal Aurbis and the first mortal spirits that walked it. By this time all of the Daedra except Meridia, had carved out their planes and spheres of influence. 

If something gave time order, it was probably the "moot at the House of We," or the Ur-Tower conference where: The physical, temporal, spiritual, and magical elements of Nirn were set at this Convention, and the tower itself remained behind even as some of the Gods disappeared into Aetherius. - Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition.

If that didn't do it, it was probably the lightbringer's doing. And by that I mean Magnus<Magna Ge<Meridia. Light gave time order, just like in the real world. And just like in the real world, the Aurbis has space-time, quantum physics through atomos (Vivec's meeting with Cyrus) and time dilation phenomena (Exegesis of Merid-Nunda) that hints at special relativity and light's speed as a constant in a vacuum. 

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Apropos of nothing, I like to think Peryite unifies order and pestilence within the unholy sphere of bureaucracy.

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IceFireWarden wrote:

Peryite is definitely not Jyggalag's replacement. His Order just works differently from Jyg's, in a way that makes the Crystal Knight want to stamp it out of existence.

I'm not saying he "replaced" him, just took up the mantle.