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Kyne's Challenge new lore?

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Bull of Kyne's picture
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Joined: 04/04/2015

Hello :)

I was reading the book you guys kindly uploaded and a passage the chapter Kyne's Challenge: High Rock caught my eye:

This glen had been further polluted by a hagraven, a fiend forsaking Kyne herself and a creature I’d been hoping to face since the Reachmen captured one of the monsters that rampaged through Skyrim during the Wild Hunt back in 1E 369.

I read into that being the "birth" of the Hagravens - creatures spawned by the Wild Hunt. The Reachmen's capture of the monster eventually led to the ritual of recreation we see in TES V Skyrim. However, as far as I know the Wild Hunt didn't extend as far north as Skyrim as High King Borgas took the fight south and died in Cyrodiil.

Any thoughts?

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
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Joined: 11/27/2010

I think it's certainly a belief the person who wrote the tract has about the origins of Hagravens, but whether or not that ever actually happened is difficult to discern. They probably got the impression from an actual folk belief or some historical account of this. It's entirely possible a monster from a Wild Hunt survived and wandered the land for years before getting lost in the Reach. Usually, they're all devoured by one another until only one remains, but there are exceptions to this rule. I see no reason why this account has to absolutely be true, nor do I feel it should be automatically dismissed as impossible. It should be treated as one possible origin of Hagravens.

Dargor's picture
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The two might be similar in that Hagravens tap into some power that allows them to change their form quite extensively. Whether or not there's a connection to what the Bosmer do (On a much grander and unstable scale) is, like Pilaf said, hard to tell.

Bull of Kyne's picture
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Thanks fellas :)

I find it quite funny because I view Y'ffre as being just an aspect of Kynareth so for his people to create a "fiend forsaking Kyne" is quite amusing to me.

shadow she-wolf's picture
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Bull of Kyne wrote:

I find it quite funny because I view Y'ffre as being just an aspect of Kynareth so for his people to create a "fiend forsaking Kyne" is quite amusing to me.

 

Well, in ESO, the Wild Hunt (of the Bosmer) is linked to Hircine, the antithesis of Y'ffre.

For the Bosmer, Hircine represents the time before the Green Pact when they were monsters, and Y'ffre represent the time of the Green Pact, when they are elves. So to transform themselves in monsters, the Bosmer have to forsake Y'ffre and go to Hircine.

 

Strangely enough, the Hagravens are linked to Hircine too. ;)

Bull of Kyne's picture
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Joined: 04/04/2015

This is very interesting, thanks Shadow :) Is there any ESO literature on the Hircine/Y'ffre connection?

It appears the Hagravens are linked to Nocturnal too, whose associations are birds (ravens) are all too common. Dare I presume to say that Kynareth, Hircine and Nocturnal all find a common denominator in Y'ffre?

Edit: Found the literature: The Blessings of Hircine. So these Wood Elves believe Y'ffre took away a freedom.

jayden96's picture
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Joined: 04/08/2015

This happens a lot in ES lore so many continunity errors it's unreal and just lazy. 

Bull of Kyne's picture
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Lol, funny but I disagree. I hate hard and fast facts in TES - there's no fun in it. It's not like other settings where one just needs to read a wiki entry to learn anything relevant and in whose fandom the "loremasters" are just those who have memorised each wiki page.

With The Elder Scrolls I find interpretation of the sources to be more fun and rewarding than being told x is x. So therefore I think ESO adds to the sprit of the existing TES lore nicely.

Maybe I'm in a minority though. I'm new here so my approach may be frowned upon...

Lady N's picture
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Joined: 06/26/2010

Quote:
Maybe I'm in a minority though

Definitely not. While most of us have some level of "fact" we want adhered to, just about every person you'll find in the lore community is all about authorial bias and contradiction. I think this book is a great example of both. 

Bull of Kyne's picture
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Thank you Lady Nerevar :) I will go on thinking that The Wild Hunt may or may not be how Hagravens originally came to be ;p

Pilaf The Defiler's picture
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Joined: 11/27/2010

jayden96 wrote:

This happens a lot in ES lore so many continunity errors it's unreal and just lazy. 

It would be lazy for there to be perfect continuity. When does this ever happen in the real world? What you call laziness I call brilliance and realism. The Unreliable Narrator. Study up on it. It's a thing. It'll correct your misconceptions.

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
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Joined: 05/10/2012

Speaking of facts, the IL still has the false date of 1E 947 as the creation of Gaiden Shinji's credo. It's actually 946.

Proweler's picture
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Joined: 06/14/2010

We seem to have two dates on record. The timeline with 946, and a bio blurp with 947.

edit:

And doing a quick cross check yields:

947 on the page on Gaiden, and 490 from  to loading screens both according to the UESP.

Anybody happen to have the original source on hand?

edit:

Arena loading screen says 947:

http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/arena_a_1.jpg

CP do you have the Oblivion loading screen?

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
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The basin of the Imperial Arena cistern has the correct date, the 946 date. The 490 is a typo, since that would make Gaiden nearly 500 years old by the siege of Orsinium. While I'm sure he was still saying the quote in the year 947, we have an earlier date (which isn't a typo like the 490 date), on the building he founded. If it's not a typo, which it doesn't seem to be, you go by the earliest date.

Proweler's picture
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Okay, so then there are 3 sources. An Oblivion loading screen, Arena loading screen and the Imperial Arena cistern. With the timeline I'd generally like to list both and let other people decide what is the correct date.

But I don't have Oblivion installed, or windows for that matter. Would like screenshots of the loading screen and the cistern.

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
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 But my overall point was, that even though there are sometimes conflicting accounts, you can and should use logic and deduction to try to get closer to the truth. Some (not all) like to simply throw their hands up in the air once there's lore inconstancy. There are facts and truths in the ES universe, regardless of if we have enough or even the right information to uncover them. Efforts should be made to find them, even if said efforts end up being futile.

 To go further, Fiore and I were discussing some of this the other day, and King Joile came up. ESO adds an Orcish poem titled The Great Siege of Orsinium, which is perhaps one of the best poems in ES lore :( In the poem not only does Gaiden Shinji live, but he and Joile slay the Orc king Golkarr together, effectively ending the siege. Well, Gaiden died during the siege and Joile did as well (according to The Memory Stone of Makela Leki), some seven years before the third scarp gate fell. So regardless of how much I like the poem, and that it would make more sense if Joile didn't back stab the very people he invited to siege Orsinium, I have to go with a first person memory stone over a poem - even though it's still only one account versus another. Unlike, say, Gaiden's death during the siege which passes the criterion of multiple attestation.