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Khajiit Musings.

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Okay I have been thinking of this for a little a while. It's been bugging me that Bethesda doesn't release more information on the Khajiit, I know more about the Saxheel than the people of Elsweyr, what I am wondering is are they true beast folk?

The Ohmes have you Merish physiology. This is strange, the reasoning is simple, on Earth their isn't such differences in one species, from Humanoid to Cat, to Large Cat, to Merish. The genetics in this species would exceedingly complex, but let's not look at it in a Scientific perspective.

The Khajiit are considered to be one of the older races. It was stated that the Khajiit walked on Nirn before Mer and Man alike. Of course this is very difficult to verify, the fact that they could be older than Mer and Man, something could be said of them being potential Ancestors, or perhaps another branch of the Elhnofey. Until we get more information I guess this question will need to be left open.

Some sources: http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Elsweyr

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The theory of Khajiit preceding mer and man is just one theory, as mentioned in the Pocket Guide. As far as I know, it is the only source for that theory. It is certainly the only one cited by UESP. The Khajiit have their own theory, and while they are renowned liars I personally think that their words have more weight than the speculation of an outside observer.

If it is true that they share ancestry with the Elves, then they are not a "true" beast race, though the term is a little vague: in that their ancestry is linked to Elves, they are not a beast race, but as far as morphology goes half of them are while the rest are not. The similarity between Ohmes and Bosmer is, as also mentioned in the Pocket Guide, worth noting.

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Topal tells us that the Khajiit, Argonians and possibly mainland Orcs are there at the beginning of the Merethic almost, so if there is Merish genes, it came from the Aldmeri (somehow). But even then, the Khajiit were there first most likely. And probably had their preliterate communities established before the Return of Man and before the Ayleid-Aldmeri split (since Topal was the first known Aldmeri on mainland Tamriel).

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Before the Ayleid-Aldmeri split certainly, but Topal the Pilot was an Aldmer, not Ehlnofey. The question is really when the Khajiit split off. According to Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter the Khajiit split off before the Bosmer, both from the "forest people", who were one of many people.

Whether "forest people" means Ehlnofey or a more specific group is unclear, but I'm assuming the latter to be true because I always imagined the Ehlnofey as being far more spread out than just living in forests. But that's pure speculation.

I'd also find it odd if the Bosmer came to be before the Aldmer, but again, as far as I know, we don't have any concrete information on that.

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I never said he wasn't Aldmeri. But since you have Khajiit with only Aldmeri around, they apparently didn't intermingle, and if they did it would have been with Aldmeri. The Khajiit and their less advanced ancestors were the first, even before the first men and mer probably. Before the progenitors of the Ehlnofey. The original fauna so to speak.

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Intermingling? I'm talking about splitting off; that they have common ancestors who may have already fit the designation of "mer". I'm not saying that the Khajiit converged with Elves, but that they may have diverged from them.

Also, there is no indication that there were only Aldmer at that point. As far as I can see, Valenwood doesn't come up in Father of the Niben. There could already have been Bosmer there. That depends on when the Bosmer split off from the Aldmer, really.

There is also really no indication at all that the Khajiit were there before the progenitors of the Ehlnofey. All that what little information we have about the Khajiit indicates is that they were around at the same time as the Aldmer. That's a far cry from their being around at the same time as the progenitors of the Ehlnofey.

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No, I just think they are a totally different beasts altogether. Nothing to do with the Elves, and were around before the Aldmeri split. PGE3 has the Aldmer going to Valenwood before the split, and since Topal was the first Aldmer to go to any part of Tamriel, the beasts are obviously there before the split.

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Father Of The Niben is not to be trusted, there are some inconsistencies (like the orcs) and it is imho work of fiction. And as Gnomey already pointed out it doesn't disprove the theory that Kahjiits are elves.

Also Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi are backed up by Varieties of Faith in the Empire (which also claims that Khajiits are related to elves).

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Gnomey wrote:

The theory of Khajiit preceding mer and man is just one theory, as mentioned in the Pocket Guide. As far as I know, it is the only source for that theory. It is certainly the only one cited by UESP. The Khajiit have their own theory, and while they are renowned liars I personally think that their words have more weight than the speculation of an outside observer.

If it is true that they share ancestry with the Elves, then they are not a "true" beast race, though the term is a little vague: in that their ancestry is linked to Elves, they are not a beast race, but as far as morphology goes half of them are while the rest are not. The similarity between Ohmes and Bosmer is, as also mentioned in the Pocket Guide, worth noting.

Wait, does this mean that the Bosmer came before the Aldmer? Because it actually explains the Wild Hunt and all that. Hmmm, I wonder if an Ohmes Khajiit can be impregnated or impregnate a non-"beast" race. I honestly think that all of the Beast Races (but the Saxheel) aren't true Beast Races. 

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Ralen wrote:

Father Of The Niben is not to be trusted, there are some inconsistencies (like the orcs) and it is imho work of fiction. And as Gnomey already pointed out it doesn't disprove the theory that Kahjiits are elves.

Also Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi are backed up by Varieties of Faith in the Empire (which also claims that Khajiits are related to elves).

Nah, it is to be trusted. Verified by the maps made and brought back by Topal.

 

The Khajiit are most likely not related to elves, since you have the Khajiit before the Aldmeri even settled Tamriel. We have more sources saying the Bosmer came from the Aldmer, than anywhere else, including from a Khajiit ideology.

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Ralen wrote:

Father Of The Niben is not to be trusted, there are some inconsistencies (like the orcs) and it is imho work of fiction.

Actually, if we were to use proper historical method here, Father Of The Niben should be trusted more than most of the sources that contradict it. There are of course always issues brought up by mistranslation, but given that the Father of the Niben (from what I remember) is a first-hand account contemporary to the period of its recording, it has considerable cred.

In the (paraphrased) words of great biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, the number of sources drawn from has no bearing on the truth of their content. All it may simply mean is that the sources with inaccuracies were copied and spread far more widely than the sources with more accurate information.

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I'm not really too comfortable with arguing off of the Pocket Guide. Father of the Niben is vague and cryptic, but is at least (probably) a first-hand account. The Pocket Guide is vague, does not name any sources, reliable or not, (it is, after all, just a guide rather than a comprehensive history), and is by no means a first-hand account. That being said, if we're using it as a source, I think it's too vague to disprove any of what I've said.

First, it mentions that the Aldmer arrived in Tamriel after their exodus -- which is often believed to be from Tamriel. If that theory is true, the Bosmer and Khajiit could have split off from the Aldmer before their first 'exodus', which is what I think is the case.

They are believed to have settled on the Summerset Isles first, but there are conflicting theories. If the Aldmer also settled other places on Tamriel, another theory the Pocket Guide mentions, the Khajiit and Bosmer could have also split off from them then, though that would conflict with Before the Ages of Man.

The Pocket Guide itself mentions that the Dwemer were already around on Tamriel during the second Aldmeri exodus, and the same applies for the Maormer, according to one of two conflicting theories the Pocket Guide mentions. They would have had to split off too at some point, unless they are also not Elves, which I suppose would be an interesting thought.

Also, looking at Father of the Niben, Topal the Pilot is only stated as being the first known Aldmer explorer of Tamriel. That is a far cry from his being the first Aldmer to leave Summerset Isles.

None of the above disproves that Khajiit precede Ehlnofey, which, from my very limited understanding, would pretty much mean they came straight from one of the twelve worlds of creation, or that they precede Aldmer, but I don't think either the Pocket Guide or Father of the Niben go anywhere near proving it, either.

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How sure are we that Topal is a historical account and not say a poem about a historical figure?

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True. The maps are probably authentic, but it's never even mentioned when the original poem was written.

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Topal is a historical account, confirmed by the maps that are now held in the Crystal Tower. Confirming every move he made, from High Rock to Topal Bay and Elsweyr.

 

I believe the words of a clan mother is an esoteric creation ideology trying to give an over all look at the (often tense) relationship between Bosmer and Khajiit, while taking a jab at the Bosmer and their pantheon at the same time. Effectively saying; we're all Nirn folk, but us Khajiit are just better (for the reasons listed at the end of Words).

 

Plus it's just silly to think that the Bosmer somehow didn't come from the Aldmer (like every other contemporary Elven race).

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I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying that the Dwemer and Maormer both seem to have split off from the Aldmer before the second exodus mentioned in the PGE, at a time unspecified by the PGE, and I don't see why the Bosmer and Khajiit couldn't have split off from the Aldmer at the same time as them, or at least in the same unchronicled period. I'm saying all of the above split from the Aldmer.

As for the poem of Topal, I'm not surprised it lines up with the maps. Whoever wrote the poem probably would have had access to them, whether that person was Topal, one of his sailors, a contemporary Aldmer or some random Aldmer or Altmer in the following years, decades or centuries.

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Xarnac The Conqueror wrote:

Topal is a historical account, confirmed by the maps that are now held in the Crystal Tower. Confirming every move he made, from High Rock to Topal Bay and Elsweyr.

 

I believe the words of a clan mother is an esoteric creation ideology trying to give an over all look at the (often tense) relationship between Bosmer and Khajiit, while taking a jab at the Bosmer and their pantheon at the same time. Effectively saying; we're all Nirn folk, but us Khajiit are just better (for the reasons listed at the end of Words).

 

Plus it's just silly to think that the Bosmer somehow didn't come from the Aldmer (like every other contemporary Elven race).

The problem is that history isn't well recorded, who is to say that the progenitors of the Races of Elves are not the Aldmer? Who is to say that the Aldmer evolved from the Khajiit? I don't like saying that the Khajiit are entirely different from the Merish people simply because of the bigotry of men and mer.

Anyway in every legend there is always a grain of truth.

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*Stupid double post*

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ChildofKyne wrote:

The problem is that history isn't well recorded, who is to say that the progenitors of the Races of Elves are not the Aldmer? Who is to say that the Aldmer evolved from the Khajiit?

The Anuad.

 

Gnomey wrote:

snip

PGE3 (which is reliable) shows how (some of) the Aldmeri evolved into the Bosmer from having to adapt to the harsh lands of Valenwood and the eventual religious split. It also mentions the native beasts and beastfolk that already inhabited the lands before the Aldmeri settled there.

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Xarnac The Conqueror wrote:

ChildofKyne wrote:

The problem is that history isn't well recorded, who is to say that the progenitors of the Races of Elves are not the Aldmer? Who is to say that the Aldmer evolved from the Khajiit?

The Anuad.

You contradicted yourself. You said that Words of Clan Mothers, was basically mythology. The Anuad is as well. 

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No, the Anuad is backed up by pretty much everything else, except the Clan Mother's Words. It's the Words "Bosmer came from Khajiit" that's the odd man out creation wise and never backed up. Plus the Anuad isn't the only source that says the contemporary Elven races came from the Aldmer. Nor the only source that says the Aldmer and Elves did their thing separate from the beasts.

 

Everything pointing one way and making the most sense, or one conjecture account from a Clan Mother? I pick the one that makes sense and has most of the evidence backing it up - that the Bosmer came from the Aldmer, and the Aldmer were the Old Ehlnofey and not beasts.

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Could you at least give me sources? I am here to learn. Also now you are contradicting Gnomey *-_-.

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All of the various Anuads and other Elven creation myths have them coming from Aldmeri one way or another, not from Khajiit. Those are the sources.

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How is PGE 3 reliable? At least as far as ancient history is concerned. I don't think it even considers itself reliable. Just of the bits of evidence you cited in the post above you have words like: "according to the traditions", "Khajiit are commonly considered", etc. preceding them. Those words aren't just there for appearance's sake. "It is commonly believed that King Arthur will one day return to rule England" is not a reliable proof that he will.

I agree with Bosmer having split from Aldmer, the question is when. The only indication of when provided by the PGE 3 is a hypothesis veiled as what it is. But as for beastfolk and Aldmer, it could just as well be saying that they already inhabited the lands before the Aldmer settled there again. Which I can agree with.

My point isn't that what the PGE 3 says is wrong, as such. It's that the PGE 3 doesn't say anything concrete, and doesn't even conflict with Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter or other sources mentioned above. The same goes for Father of the Niben.

Edit: to clarify: I'm not saying Bosmer split off from the Khajiit. I'm saying Khajiit split off from Aldmer, and then Bosmer split off from Aldmer.

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How isn't it? Are you getting PGE3 mixed up with PGE1, or what? How is this not clear:

 

The history of the land, of course, began long before the first year of the First Era. Before man or mer came to Valenwood, the forestland was a salmagundi of creatures and strange civilizations. Centaurs, hippogriffs, satyrs, minotaurs, giants, basilisks, fairy folk, hydra, and intelligent apes all flourished there before the first Aldmeri stepped onto its shores. Indeed, the first challenge for the early Aldmeri was to rise from prey to predator in the forest's intricate heirarchy of life.

As the Aldmer began to change their ways to match their new environment, adapting to the forest in body and mind, they became known as the Bosmer. In return for the patronage of Y'ffre, the Forest God (either one of the old ancestor spirits or an aspect of the true pantheon), they swore never to kill, injure, or eat any of the vegetation of their new home.

 

 

All of the evidence pointing one way, or the words of one source. I'll pick the logical outcome with all of the evidence, that they are not Khajiit and came from the Aldmer.

 

If you agree that the Bosmer split from the Aldmer, then how can the Words be right? Words states that the Bosmer were once Khajiit and they split off, not that the Khajiit or Aldmeri split from one another.

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Both of them are unreliable. Actually Bethesda intelligently or unknowingly made everything suggestive, instead of just giving us the information.

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The Words say that the Khajiit and Bosmer were both originally "forest people". These could be Aldmer living in Valenwood. The PGE 3 is unreliably when it comes to ancient history, and it knows it, going by its wording. All of that is conjecture, based on popular myth and legend, with the very rare vague record tossed in. Maybe.

Other than that, though, I really have no issue with the quote above. It fits perfectly with the narrative of Words of Clan Mother so-and-so.

@ChildofKyne: Most of the sources we're using have been linked to above. Here is a list:

Annotated Anuad

A Pocket Guide to the Empire and its environs, Third Edition - mainly the History sections on the Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr

Before the Ages of Man - especially the third and fourth paragraphs on the Merethic Era; in my opinion the only source that directly contradicts the Khajiiti account.

Father of the Niben - The first and last verses especially

Varieties of Faith in the Empire - the entry on Azura

Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter - the last half dozen or so paragraphs

Edit: I missed your post above. Really, I agree. Both theories could be correct; I don't think there's enough information either way. With the sources above (did I forget any?) I think people should be able to form their own opinion. I think the rest of this thread of conversation is probably just clearing up a few misunderstandings as to what the opinions are.

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Words states that they were both Cat like and from the same clowder. Both cats, not Aldmeri. Again, I'll go by what makes sense and is backed up everywhere else, not conjecture on a meaning of word usage in Words. That's all I have to really say on the matter, so I guess we'll agree to disagree.

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Topal is like Columbus - he was the first, but there were others before him, like dwemer, bosmer, khajiit, ayleids and so on. ;-)

Also Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi is in perfect agreement with The Anuad (note: Ahnissi doesn't say that bosmer are descendants of khajiit, but that they are both descendants of "forest people" = aldmer).

And don't forget that in TES myths are real.

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@Xarnac The Conqueror: It doesn't, though. In the book, Azura changes "some forest people", and then later Nirni let's Y'ferr "change the forest people also". What I take this to mean is that some Aldmer were changed into Khajiit, and stayed Khajiit, and then later some Aldmer were turned into Bosmer. Not that some were changed into Khajiit and then some of the Khajiit were changed into Bosmer. In both cases, it is the 'forest people' who get changed.

The forest people "did not know their shape". Azurah selected the "forest people who were torn between man and beast". This does not mean that all were torn between man and beast, and 'beast' does not mean 'cat'. As mentioned before, the description actually lines up nicely with the Wild Hunt. Note that Azurah is stated as making the Khajiit "of many shapes" after selecting them, which means that they did not necessarily look like Khajiit before she changed them.

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It states how the "forest people" were not elves (until some were changed to Bosmer), therefore they couldn't have been the Aldmer. But even if it did mean what you say, which it doesnt, it would still be one word against many.

 

Logic and lots of evidence>one account of conjecture.

 

Make a poll on the Beth forums, see what the consensus is, but I'm done.