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Infernal Takeaways

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If one expects Chekhov, just, you know, go home. He's of a spirit akin to Carver, a previous master I once studied for years but whose art is self-contained. 'Collaborative' is the key word of comparison here. Tamriel itself would rebel against anything otherwise.

How can one read Lady Nerevar's lore-bit bullets regarding The Infernal City and not appreciate how much homework Mr. Keyes has done?

This is not a defensive posture, which would be better exercised as the Silent Stroke. Instead, it's a call for forum, and all the right-headed polylogues that should spring from such.

You guys are the rearguard of the Convention. Talk it through. What implications can be culled from this narrative, especially from a lore-clicked lens? As a humble forum member, I would like to hear that discussion.

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The very first thing I noticed about the IFC, and what I deeply appreciate it for, is all the throwbacks and affirmations to theories and facts that we have long talked about in the forum, some of which were still seen as controversial or downright crackpot. Keys essentially canonized this and and proved what we had long suspected about the relationship between the Hist and the Argonians. He confirmed Elsweyr being Texas, not Egypt, as I had long thought and lobbied for. The little throwbacks are even more pleasing - the pyramid of Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht (exact egg cracker, Sithis, previously remembered only in the translation dictionary), for instance, or people getting all confused when anything remotely metaphysical comes into play (like many did and still do in the lore forum). 

But thats not really what this thread is about. 

Implications... the slate is wiped clean. We're talking about the first major change in a long time. The return of the Aldmeri Dominion, the exile of the Dunmer, a broken 'Empire.' Its nice to have some change. If we're talking parabolic kalpa (as I can't stop doing) then we're definitely on the ascend. As all preceding plots have somehow released pieces of Lorkhan back into the aether, I can't help but wonder what Umbriel's role is in regards to Tamriel (besides zombification, of course). How will the Ingenium interact with the Dreamsleave (of which it is an analogue) if/when Umbriel makes landfall (c wut i did thar)? Can Umbriel be viewed as another 'subgradient' of Tamriel (since it is its own self-contained plane of existence) and what does it say about Tamriel if it can? 

 

Not awfully helpful. I'll get back to this once I fix a few dozen more links. 

The new reforme...

Well Judging by Lady N's excellent Notes.

Keyes does Canonise many Forum concepts which is a good thing.

However the bad things are numerous.

1. The Dunmer get totally slaughtered by the book.

2. The Argonians get Marty\Mary Stued to the point it go's into self parody

3. Anything Keyes actually invented on his own ,even names, feels really Generic.

4. The new Empire is the death of what would have been a great storyline for a Novel or as a setting for a spin-off.

5.The Argonian language is the right side letter Keys and another Stuism of the Argonians. 

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I really don't see any of those.

The Dunmer's slaughter was foretold as early as TES3 Morrowind, and was further reinforced with the Loveletter. While its not what I would have done (I'd have let the province experience something of a Reconstruction era, political upheaval, economic disruption, etc.), I wouldn't call it the wrong thing to do.

Most Argonians get turned into zombies. How is that remotely MS? 

Some of the names could be better, but I would hardly call all of them crap. The crap to good ratio is about the same as elsewhere in TES. Besides, what were you expecting, a commentary on how the fall of the empire is changing the mythostructural essence of Tamriel? 

Would I have liked to see the collapse of the Septim Empire? Yes, I would have. We still have time for that though, and I don't think the new setting is all that boring. 

 

Really, this thread was not to talk about how the book may or may not suck (theres official threads over at the BSF for that). Its to talk about the lore of the book and how that lore matters in relation to previous lore.

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The new reformed Dunmerdude. wrote:

Well Judging by Lady N's excellent Notes.

Keyes does Canonise many Forum concepts which is a good thing.

However the bad things are numerous.

1. The Dunmer get totally slaughtered by the book.

MK: Kill your babies. Which part of "None Shall Survive" did you forget?

Quote:

2. The Argonians get Marty\Mary Stued to the point it go's into self parody

MLK: Perhaps you're speaking of the language issues, which I can't honestly address. But the Argonian undiluted victory over Dagon is self-parody? Wut.

Quote:

3. Anything Keyes actually invented on his own ,even names, feels really Generic.

MK: Too general a generalization to answer proficiently.

Quote:

4. The new Empire is the death of what would have been a great storyline for a Novel or as a setting for a spin-off.

MK: Another opinionated digression rather than a fruitful road of inferencial discourse.  In lieu of such a told and/or played storyline, what does its absence indicate for future franchise installments?

Quote:

5.The Argonian language is the right side letter Keys and another Stuism of the Argonians. 

See 2, though I think I can viably say the Stuism disparagement is particulary against your own (or your clan's) wishes and not necessarily "bad". Again, an opinion that takes its ball and goes home rather than a starting point of New Team, which this thread is primarily concerned with.

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Well, one issue is that since we've only gotten the first half of the whole story, there may be some points we are only seeing partially or even not at all. For example, let's run on with the mini-Dreamsleeve that is the Marrow Sump. If Umbriel were to become part of Tamriel, would its inhabitants continue to be born and die that way? What would use of the Tower entail for the rest of the world? What happens to Vile if Vuhon and Umbra permanently escape? 

Lady N wrote:

I really don't see any of those.

The Dunmer's slaughter was foretold as early as TES3 Morrowind, and was further reinforced with the Loveletter. While its not what I would have done (I'd have let the province experience something of a Reconstruction era, political upheaval, economic disruption, etc.), I wouldn't call it the wrong thing to do.

Most Argonians get turned into zombies. How is that remotely MS? 

Some of the names could be better, but I would hardly call all of them crap. The crap to good ratio is about the same as elsewhere in TES. Besides, what were you expecting, a commentary on how the fall of the empire is changing the mythostructural essence of Tamriel? 

Would I have liked to see the collapse of the Septim Empire? Yes, I would have. We still have time for that though, and I don't think the new setting is all that boring. 

Well, if you read the Loveletter one way, there are Dunmer underground even as the book occurs. Perhaps their culture will go through those upheavals, and the ones on Solstheim will also change?

And do we know it's "most?" Glim says if you're far enough from Black Marsh the Hist aren't as loud. That leads me to think that any Argonians far enough from Black Marsh both during the Oblivion Crisis (which exlains the rumors in Oblivion about Argonians vanishing into the swamps, actually) and when this occurs survive. Most assimilated Argonians in Black Marsh, though, may well be dead. 

And while I don't expect that kind of mytho-commentary in the novels, I would be disappointed if it weren't in future, in-game books. But that doesn't belong in a linear novel plot. I also expect the collapse of the Septim Empire will be expanded upon in future games.

 

EDIT P.S.: Also, the book's bit about hardcore traditionalist Argonians not believing in Time (but having the Hist as thier own Dreamsleeve) shook me up in a good way. The Imperials claim that every culture has Akatosh, but it looks like they missed one.

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Jeroic wrote:

(which exlains the rumors in Oblivion about Argonians vanishing into the swamps, actually)

whoa whoa wait I've played every angle of that game and I've NEVER heard that rumor. Source?

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 It's a random rumor you might here when other NPCs talk to each other. They claim that Argonians have been leaving Imperial settlements on the swamp edges and disappearing. It was the Hist calling them to fight back.

The new reforme...

“When the gates opened, Argonians poured into Oblivion with such fury and might, Dagon's Lieutenants had to close them.”

Jel , the ancient Argonian tongue, is “the closest speech to thought.” Humans are not able to pronounce it enough to converse effectively.

The scales of really old Argonians turn translucent in patches.

“The concept Imperials called 'time' did not have a word in [Glim's] native language. In fact, the hardest part of learning the language of the Imperials was that they made their verbs different to indicate when something had happened, as if the most important thing in the world was to establish a linear sequence of events, as if doing so somehow explained things better than holistic apprehension.” p.90

“To [Glim's] people – at least the most traditional ones – birth and death were the same moment. All of life – all of history – was one moment, and only by ignoring most of its content could one create the illusion of linear progression. The agreement to see things in this limited way was what other peoples called 'time'.” p.90

The Argonians are talked up to be SO much wiser and better then any other race on Nirn and the other races cannot even GRASP the Genius of the Argonians.

Their is just to many quotes that Stu-up Titus Mede as the second coming of Tiber Septim that I can't list them all.

Speaking of which the whole Attrebus and his Father thing is so done it isn't a Trope it's a Cliche.

Now for my biggest issue.

What the hell did the Dunmer do to deserve how Keyes treats them?

If it wasn't for the Argonian connection I would have wrote it off as bad writing but this is obvious bias.

“It wasn't enough that the ministry fell; the impact caused the volcano that was the heart and namesake of Vvardenfell to explode. Ash, lava, and tidal waves had done their work, and when that was calmed, the Argonians had come, eager to repay what survived of his people for millennia of abuse and enslavement.”

So even with the huge devastation caused by this event the Argonians are justified in causing near Genocide over the ABOLISHED slavery of their race?

After Vivec “left, or was destroyed” Morrowind's best minds crated the ingenium, a machine that uses souls to keep the Ministry stationary. p.213

“The ingenium exploded. It hurled Vuhon into Oblivion. Then the ministry crashed into the city [Vivec], and Vvardenfell exp loaded.” p.213

The fall of the Ministry brought about the Red Year. p.214

“The ingenium used souls to keep a sort of vent into Oblivion open, specifically into the realm of the daedra prince, Clavicus Vile...

Vile has a thing for souls... and if he noticed the rift at all, he probably enjoyed what was coming through more than he missed the energies going out. It is even possible that Vuhon made a formal bargain with the prince.” p.214

So basically everything is the fault of the Dunmer.

Umbra took us captive – he was powerful, almost as powerful as a daedra prince. In fact, it was the power of a daedra prince – he'd somehow managed to cut a piece from Clavicus Vile himself.

Stu alert!

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As has been noted, the biggest implication for lore is that it seems to serve as a final breaking point from the cliched DnD roots of TES. No more generic crap like the "Mage's Guild", [potentially] no more standard empire ruling over provinces - overall it strikes me as breathing fresh air into the universe.

It's Wulf's warning come to life:

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty."

Its time for something young and new, Infernal City is the doorway into that.

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 Oh and another thing I noticed, or popped into my head somewhere. Now, it seemed as though Sul "summoned" Ilzheven's spirit. While she did say she was tied to "this place," she may have meant it in the way Dunmer Ancestor Spirits are tied to Nirn. Which made me wonder, is Ilzheven Sul's "summon ancestor ghost" spell?

 

(And while this isn't an "about the book" thread, I just need to mention that since it's in third person limited, we are only seeing what Glim think of Argonians, and he would like them, being he is one).

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The new reformed Dunmerdude. wrote:

<snip>

 

Okay, just wtf are you talking about?

 

I'd like to be contributing to this thread but unfortunately I'm only at the fourth chapter of the book...

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Dunmerdude:

You know, I'm tempted to just tell you to go read some lore, because you're pulling shit out of your ass. If Argonians are suddenly Sues because they have a different concept of time, what the hell were the Dunmer? 80% of what we know of metaphysics comes from Vivec, after all. He is the highest being in existence right now, and insists on shoving that in our face (along with Muatra). After you go and read all that Vivec has told us (which certainly goes beyond "time doesn't exist") go and read et'Ada Eat the Dreamer, or the Songs of King Wulfharth, both of which present concepts which are equally wise (and therefore Sue in your definition), and both of which are neither Argonian nor Dunmer. Every culture has a way of viewing the world, and it doesn't make them the author's pet. 

As for the Dunmer, again, read the sermons and the loveletter. The Dunmer were fated to their doom for the past 4 years, K is just the messenger. 

"A Mary Sue is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader." Just because they are wise, or powerful, doesn't make them Sues. 

 

Jeroic: yea, I meant the Argonians within the marsh, sorry for not clarifying that. 

 

Lugar: Exactly. I just hope that TES5 doesn't go back to a standard empire. 

I'm currently thinking that it would have been impossible to stage a game as the Septim Empire was falling. That much political upheaval and stuff would either have left us with a character who is just a paperboy or would have forced some hella retcons. Or both *cough*daggerfall*cough*. There is still plenty of opportunity to tell about this time in literature, spinoffs, comics, movies, etc. In fact, I'd wager it'd make a pretty spiffy MMO. 

The new reforme...

Short version:The Argonians are made the best thing since sliced bread and the Dunmer are given the idiot ball and then pounded into a non-entity because at some point in the past the Dunmer enslaved Argonians which ticks off Keyes personally.

Lady N my issue is HOW the Dunmer are destroyed not that they are and how they are blamed for what happened in the first place.

 

 

B
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Some quick thoughts... More later:

I think the ‘controversial’ ideas show some risk-taking. Many of the events were not the kind of things I think many people expected, and therefore, the cause of much disappointment. Personally, I found many of them somewhat refreshing. That doesn’t mean I liked them all, but my opinion of what I would’ve liked to have seen matters little in the grand scheme of things. It would have been easy to write a nice, safe novel with character all set in a world we’ve come to know from Oblivion. I, for one, liked the destruction of Morrowind. Well, “liked” might be too strong of a word there, but I certainly appreciated the magnitude of it all. With this almost clean slate (as Lady N called it), there’s a chance to reinvent some things and, hopefully, break away from some of the more traditional fantasy stuff (crap) that TES was heading toward with Oblivion.

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Damnit for making me get an account here (I dislike the idea of a divided community - stinks of elitism).  But shit, I can't go sticking a post-it-note about about Ol' Infernal on the Official bulleton-board now can I?  Too obvious.  So, fuck, I'll talk here, but if you don't include the unlearned in these conversations don't get in a tizzy if they're never anything but.

Sos whens Is reads and reflecteds ons the book, Is starteds wonderins things likes:

If Lorkhan sleeps at the is-is not beneath Red Mountain, and if Red Mountain just went BOOM, then... !

If Nirn was stitched together from bits-and-pieces of the Et'ada who willingly/were tricked into sacrificing themselves, and if Umbriel is a part of Vile's realm, and the realm of a Daedra is that Daedra, and if Vohun is manuevering Umbriel towards White-Gold Tower, which is a hub...!

Is Attrebus a remnant of an age in its death-throws, or the first ray of morning?  And whichever the case, who's getting cut to pieces and how many cartographers will I have to hire?

Aren't the Nords and the Dunmer just the more adorable awkward couple you've ever seen?  They're gonna make some sweet-ass culture-babies.

 

The new reforme...

B wrote:

Some quick thoughts... More later:

I think the ‘controversial’ ideas show some risk-taking. Many of the events were not the kind of things I think many people expected, and therefore, the cause of much disappointment. Personally, I found many of them somewhat refreshing. That doesn’t mean I liked them all, but my opinion of what I would’ve liked to have seen matters little in the grand scheme of things. It would have been easy to write a nice, safe novel with character all set in a world we’ve come to know from Oblivion. I, for one, liked the destruction of Morrowind. Well, “liked” might be too strong of a word there, but I certainly appreciated the magnitude of it all. With this almost clean slate (as Lady N called it), there’s a chance to reinvent some things and, hopefully, break away from some of the more traditional fantasy stuff (crap) that TES was heading toward with Oblivion.

Morrowind was doing a much better job of gently moving away from Generic fantasy,Oblivion then went and fucked that up.

Taking the Fable root is not the right answer.

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Its cause and effect. The moon fell because they stopped loving Vivec. The moon's velocity was enough to make the volcano explode. The only thing they did is try to stop it, and its not their fault (well, maybe its Sul's) that it failed. Building a machine to ward of their fate is hardly an "idiot ball." It also makes perfect sense that the Argonians would attack - they had been enslaved and raided for thousands of years, and their recent freedom (which was hardly such, if we consider real life examples) did not make up for it. They were high on their recent victory against the Daedra, and their ancient enemies were severely weakened. It was the perfect chance to attack. Again, its not what I would have done, but its not totally random or totally uncalled for. 

Morrowind developed Morrowind, not the rest of the Empire. 

Anyways, lets make this thread less about bitching and more about analyzing the lore. 

 

I'm not sure if the eruption of Red Mountain did anything for Lorkhan, since he was already freed in MW. Likewise, I'm not sure if the White-Gold is going to do anything for Umbriel... depends on what the destruction of the amulet and the Akatosh statue really did for it. 

The new reforme...

I do agree on the whole analyzing the lore being what we should be doing since it's canon and I cannot do anything about it.

So what new concepts has Keyes actually introduced that are his own ideas?

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Lady N wrote:

I'm not sure if the eruption of Red Mountain did anything for Lorkhan, since he was already freed in MW. Likewise, I'm not sure if the White-Gold is going to do anything for Umbriel... depends on what the destruction of the amulet and the Akatosh statue really did for it. 

I've been wondering that myself. It may be that the second book will give me the answer. A while back someone was saying the statue wasn't important because of something to do with invalidating some kind of pact with Talos. The guy was speaking with in-character cryptobabble instead of OOC crypto-analysis like he should have been doing. In any event, I think that the Statue is a sort of "auto-on" Stone for White-Gold, the function is the same you just don't need a living body to wear it.

The new reforme...

Lady N wrote:

Its cause and effect. The moon fell because they stopped loving Vivec. The moon's velocity was enough to make the volcano explode. The only thing they did is try to stop it, and its not their fault (well, maybe its Sul's) that it failed. Building a machine to ward of their fate is hardly an "idiot ball." It also makes perfect sense that the Argonians would attack - they had been enslaved and raided for thousands of years, and their recent freedom (which was hardly such, if we consider real life examples) did not make up for it. They were high on their recent victory against the Daedra, and their ancient enemies were severely weakened. It was the perfect chance to attack. Again, its not what I would have done, but its not totally random or totally uncalled for. 

Morrowind developed Morrowind, not the rest of the Empire. 

Anyways, lets make this thread less about bitching and more about analyzing the lore. 

 

I'm not sure if the eruption of Red Mountain did anything for Lorkhan, since he was already freed in MW. Likewise, I'm not sure if the White-Gold is going to do anything for Umbriel... depends on what the destruction of the amulet and the Akatosh statue really did for it. 

OK one Lore question and then I'm off to try to understand the MK non-canon babble you cling to so much.

I was under the impression that the Heart of Lorkhan is like the Staff of Chaos and cannot be destroyed merely displaced.

 

 

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Yes. I didn't say that it was destroyed, I said that it was freed (i.e. released from being the stone of red mountain and stuff). 

Its canon because its canonized by the Infernal City, as well as the 36 Lessons. Besides, I though you're not doing the trolling thing anymore? 

 

A trend I've noticed recently is the muddying of the concept of "Daedra." Malacath has already been bending it, and SI revealed the Jyggy/Sheggy dichotomy and let the CoC mantle one/both/neither of them. And now IFC comes along and has Umbra cut of a piece of Vile. With Umbriel at his disposal, could Umbra come to replace Vile (or rather the concept he embodies)? 

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Ye gods, I almost forgot that there was a novel. I haven't read it, but I know the summary. Was it Ada who said It's mostly about food? That was hilarious.

Anyway, everything I read about it did sound a bit too silly to arouse real curiosity. In general, I salute the effort to shake the dust off the setting; it's a courageous move, and I respect courage.

But obviously I'd have to read the book before joining a discussion about lore implications... I may do so nowadays. When it first came out I was angry for some reason. Now I'm in a better mood.

The new reforme...

I am not trolling simply.

Abagaianye An [False] Agea Ada

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Lady N wrote:
A trend I've noticed recently is the muddying of the concept of "Daedra." Malacath has already been bending it, and SI revealed the Jyggy/Sheggy dichotomy and let the CoC mantle one/both/neither of them. And now IFC comes along and has Umbra cut of a piece of Vile. With Umbriel at his disposal, could Umbra come to replace Vile (or rather the concept he embodies)? 

I made a similar note over at t0, though not including the bit about Umbra and Vile. Malacath, Meridia, Sheo and Dagon (and perhaps Vile) all blur the lines - I'd be interested to learn if this was true of all the Princes, such as if none of the Princes actually viewed the others as true Daedra.

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The whole concept of the Wheel-as-Aurbis metaphor is Lorkhan being trapped in the center, and there being a fundamental distinction between Aedra and Daedra.  Now both of those are completely down for throws.  I think it's pretty sexy myself, though the trend certainly didn't start with Infernal City.

And I thought Keyes' giving the Argonians the same perspective on time as Boethius' God was pretty nifty.  It makes them inhuman without making them silly-animals-that-thinks-they're-people.

 

 

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Lady N wrote:
The moon fell because they stopped loving Vivec.

Mmm. There's a whole mass of things unresolved in my head about Vivec, perhaps because I don't really like him. His ability to stop the rock: was it through the power he gained from tapping into the Heart? Or was it through his own brand of divinity, which is different from that of the two other Triunes? Or perhaps there is no difference?

Anyhow, what does it mean, "they stopped loving Vivec"? I get (or think I get) what's beneath it, but I can't relate it to actual events that took place in lore. Does it mean the Dunmer lost their faith? In whom - the Tribunal as a whole or just Vivec? Does it mean they took up the worship of the Nine? Or does it refer to a loss of spiritual/cultural identity the Dunmer might have suffered after the Tribunal left?

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All of them to some extent, I'd say. Mostly a love for Vivec though. He left them to fend for themselves in the Oblivion Crisis, and his fellow Triunes are dead. Loss of religious belief (i.e. love for gods) = loss of belief Vivec's power = symbolic loss of power = rock falls (cause Vivec no longer has the power to keep it up in the minds of his followers). 

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The new reformed Dunmerdude. wrote:

...the Dunmer are given the idiot ball and then pounded into a non-entity because at some point in the past the Dunmer enslaved Argonians which ticks off Keyes personally.

I hate to break it to you, kid, but I'm the one that crushed the Dunmer back into the scathing bay.

B
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Jeroic wrote:

Lady N wrote:

I'm not sure if the eruption of Red Mountain did anything for Lorkhan, since he was already freed in MW. Likewise, I'm not sure if the White-Gold is going to do anything for Umbriel... depends on what the destruction of the amulet and the Akatosh statue really did for it. 

I've been wondering that myself. It may be that the second book will give me the answer. A while back someone was saying the statue wasn't important because of something to do with invalidating some kind of pact with Talos. The guy was speaking with in-character cryptobabble instead of OOC crypto-analysis like he should have been doing. In any event, I think that the Statue is a sort of "auto-on" Stone for White-Gold, the function is the same you just don't need a living body to wear it.

When Umbriel reaches the White-Gold Tower, I can only imagine what will happen when it begins to feed on creatia.

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Does the White-Gold still have that stuff though? I'm really quite confused as to how the dragon statue managed to replace the stone (or the whole tower itself?). It kinda seemed to me that the Dragon was a new covenant, keeping the Daedra at bay and what not, but I don't think it covered the rest of the Tower's functions. Of course, I'm likely wrong. Either way, a model of mundus touching down on another model of mundus could be interesting. 

I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing actual implications for lore in the IFC itself, as we don't yet know how the story ends. There are plenty of meta takeaways in regards to how the lore, setting, and story is handled, but its a bit hard to judge the effect of Umbriel until we know what it actually ends up doing.