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Hierarchy of the Dragons

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Dragons follow the strongest thuum user there is. For a long time it was Alduin but after you defeat Alduin who do the dragons follow. At first I thought that there new leader is Paarthurnax since we see many dragons at the throat of the world after the main quest trying to learn control themselves. But who does Paarthurnax follow. Does he in turn follow the dragonborn which would make the LDB the true leader or is the dragonborn below Paarthurnax in the heirarchy. I think it would be awesome if the LDB was the leader since I imagine a situation where the LDB is losing a fight so he summons dozens or even hundreds of dragons to aid him

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I imagine most are now lone wolves which form their own clans, some, like Odahviing presumably would follow the DB if needed, or any dragon who is won over by bend will. Some probably follow Paarthurnax in the way of the voice. They would seem to live in the moment, challenging another Dovah and submitting if his Thu'um is stronger. Alduin was percieved the strongest, but he was defeated, by a mortal no less. But to be honest, Alduin was their undisputed leader in the Merethic Era until they were mostly wiped out, and when revived they aren't going to remember anyone else. So the hierarchy for most dragons was probably "I answer to whoever's Thu'um is strongest, and none is stronger than Alduin." When Alduin was dead, most of them probably scattered across Tamriel and became their own masters. I imagine most became far less hostile to humans though, they may not bow to the Dovahkiin, but they were probably very humbled. They are naturally haughty beings, so it is unlikely they would unanimously bow to a man. Some would, of course, but many did not obey Alduin even when he was alive. Being individually so powerful makes being a pawn an unattractive concept, and most dragons appear solitary, so they are likely very independently minded creatures, meaning that when the closest thing they had to a leader died, they don't exactly go out of their way to seek out a new one. Hell, why would they even need one, they are powerful enough to subsist as it is. 

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The dragons at Snow-Throat are there as a salute to the LDB. They now recognize the LDB as a Dovah. Durnehviir in the Dawnguard DLC says that even he has heard of Alduin's defeat. He also refers to the LDB as a "Dovah". By defeating Alduin, the LDB has proven his/hers Thu'um is the strongest. As KingofBlades mentioned, Paarthurnax probably sees the LDB as the new ruler, but as Tiber II pointed out most Dragons became lone wolves after Alduin's defeat. I wish the Library had the dialogue, but I think I remember Esbern saying that Odahviin was some sort of general/right-hand-man to Alduin. Seeing how the LDB has Paarthurnax (one of the most renowned dragons) and Odahviin (Alduin's former right-hand-man) following him/her and that the LDB killed the former leader, that would make the LDB the new Alpha, or at least given the LDB a claim to the title. I would also like to compare it to nordic traditions. If the High King of Skyrim is challenged to a fight and is then defeated, the victor may claim their right as the new king.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

The dragons at Snow-Throat are there as a salute to the LDB. They now recognize the LDB as a Dovah. Durnehviir in the Dawnguard DLC says that even he has heard of Alduin's defeat. He also refers to the LDB as a "Dovah". By defeating Alduin, the LDB has proven his/hers Thu'um is the strongest. As KingofBlades mentioned, Paarthurnax probably sees the LDB as the new ruler, but as Tiber II pointed out most Dragons became lone wolves after Alduin's defeat. I wish the Library had the dialogue, but I think I remember Esbern saying that Odahviin was some sort of general/right-hand-man to Alduin. Seeing how the LDB has Paarthurnax (one of the most renowned dragons) and Odahviin (Alduin's former right-hand-man) following him/her and that the LDB killed the former leader, that would make the LDB the new Alpha, or at least given the LDB a claim to the title. I would also like to compare it to nordic traditions. If the High King of Skyrim is challenged to a fight and is then defeated, the victor may claim their right as the new king.

"Dovah" just means dragon though. It means they recognise him as an equal, not a ruler, which is the important question. I think even in the days of Alduin, the Dragons did not have a solid hierarchy. 

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Tiber II wrote:

"Dovah" just means dragon though. It means they recognise him as an equal, not a ruler, which is the important question. I think even in the days of Alduin, the Dragons did not have a solid hierarchy. 

True, but for a thousand years mortals have been looked at as inferior to dragons. The LDB isn't just a "dovah", but is also the dovah that defeated Alduin the world eater. But to actually get to the hierarchy topic. I believe that the dragons hierarchy is very similar to those of wolves.

Before Alduin's defeat:

1)Alpha—Alduin

2)Beta—Odahviin

3)Other Dovah

4)Dragon Priests (excluding Miraak)

5)Omega...........................Paarthurnax

6)Humans/mortals

After Alduin's defeat:

1)Alpha—LDB

2)Beta—Paarthurnax

3)Other Dovah—Odahviin/ Durnehviir

4)Humans/mortals

So, dragons don't have a hierarchy like King, Duke, Lord, Nobleman, ect., but a less "solid" hierarchy does exist.

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While reading Atlas of Dragons, I found this:

"Paarthurnax - The legendary lieutenant of Alduin in the Dragon War. He is now known to lair on the Throat of the World under the protection of the Greybeards of High Hrothgar..."

This is written by the Dragonguard (early Blades). It states that Paarthurnax was once Alduin's "lieutenant" this proves that there is, in fact, some sort of hierarchy or rankings among dragons.

Now, during the Dragon War after Alduin was defeated, many of his followers became independent and fled into hiding.

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I imagine it to be a lot like feudalism. That is, actual feudalism, not the "pyramid" model with Alduin at the top, but a web with Alduin in the centre. He is the most important and strongest link, but is absolutely reliant on the compliance of others, that is not always assured, to maintain a facade of leadership.

In other words, in order to be a king of a race of extremely powerful and naturally independent beings, you need to be able to demonstrate that you can destroy them all if you wished AND that serving you benefits them. For example, Alduin asks a Dragon to aid him in his cause, it is entirely down to that Dragon whether he chooses too or not. At that point, Alduin can send others to destroy the dissident, but only if their loyalty is assured, which it is not. The dissident is rebelling because he does not think Alduin's Thu'um is strong enough to control all dragons. Ultimately Alduin could not defeat all dovah as he was beaten by humans twice, but he could out-Thu'um any individual Dovah, and because Dragons are not very inclined towards community and working together by nature, Alduin is recognised as the strongest  Dovah but that does not mean he can control all dovah at once. He has to rely upon others if he wishes to maintain a hierarchy.

This is why Odahviing was, I think without Bethesda's awareness, was such an interesting character; he played power politics, he called Alduin's bluff. Alduin says to Odahviing "support me or I will destroy you," Odahviing says to Alduin "well, this Dragonborn guy seems to be besting you, his offer seems right now more enticing than yours, as you demand that I obey you, what if I start backing a different horse?" At this point, Odahviing knows that if the Dragonborn loses, he's fucked, all in basically, and this is the attitude of many dragons (according to Odahviing anyway). Although he was trapped and had not much choice, he would certainly not have made such an offer to the Dovahkiin had he thought Alduin would win, because Alduin would probably destroy him for being a turncoat. This resembles the politics of history - if say, Imperial Rome, Medieval England or Feudal Japan fell in to civil war (as they often did) warring candidates for the position of Emperor, King or Shogun respectively would approach their vassals (land-owners, dukes, daimyos etc.) and request troops for the cause. If one such vassal did not think much of their overlord, they might refuse, at which point they are banking everything on the other side winning. If they lose, then they know that they are doomed. Similarly, in Skyrim, Jarls would either throw their weight behind Ulfric or the Empire, knowing that if the other side won the best they could expect would be a loss of wealth and power, but probably death or imprisonment. I imagine it is the same with dragons. Powerful Dov like Odahviing are constantly gambling and haggling with Alduin, and abandoning him the moment he shows signs of despotism at the expense of their individual aims. As such the relationship is more like that of a buyer and seller or a worker and employer in a competitive labour market, not a ruler and a thrall. 

As such, the dragons do not really have a hierarchy, they have a primitive kind of cutthroat federalism. Sure, the one in the centre of the web may try to uphold a facade of autocratic authority, the same way an Emperor of antiquity might seek to create an image of an all powerful ruler, but ultimately the extent of their power is in the hands of their subjects, who may depart for greener pastures at any time. Think about the Septim Empire of the Third Era and early Fourth Era; by far the most powerful faction on Tamriel, but the moment provinces began to secede and they were in no fit state to do anything about it, the guise of authority began to slip. It is much the same with the dragons I suppose, Alduin's rule is largely superficial, it is bought, not guaranteed. 

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Tiber II wrote:

*snip*

You make dragons seem like cowards. When the LDB calls Odahviin with his Thu'um Odahviin answers 1)Because this intrigues him

and

2)Because he is honor bound to come.

The same goes for Durnehviir. The LDB makes a deal with Durnehviir and Durnehviir is honor bound to full fill his end of the bargan. Besides, after Odahviin is freed from his imprisonment, he could simply turn his back on the dragonborn. If he did the LDB would be able to defeat Alduin and Odahviin would have lost nothing.

You could argue that Odahviin was honor bound to Alduin, but that oath was made when there was only one choice for a leader. Alduin is the World Eater, first born of Akatosh. This gives him divine right to rule over all (dragons and mortals alike). The other dovah aren't stupid, they know Alduin the god of end times. I don't think the other dragons follow him solely out of fear. They now his thu'um is great (the greatest), but I'd like to think that they follow him for better reasons than their fear of him.

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Id argue that fear is the sole reason or at least the chief reason the dragons followed Alduin. I looked up Odahviing on uesp to check his dialogue and he states "Many of us have begun to question Alduin's lordship, whether his thuum was truly the strongest". From this line it is heavily implied that Alduin's lordship is derived from the fact  that he is stronger than all other dragons. He then states, "Among ourselves of course. None were yet ready to openly defy him". This states that they are too afraid of Alduin's power to rise up against him. He also states " Serve you no. If and when you defeat Alduin I will reconsider." This implies that if you can prove that you are the stongest then he will follow you. So we know that at least Odahviing follows your lead and its very unlikely that Odahviing's belief that the strongest should rule is radical among dragons. So the LDB's defeat of Alduin likely results in quite a few dragons following you, most likely the ones that follow Paarthunax . Also from this it is heavily implied that the dragons mainly followed Alduin out of fear.

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@KingofBlades:

I'm glad you've found some dialogue. I should have looked on UESP. Sure Alduin owes his lordship to his power. He is the strongest. But I don't think all/most of the dovah follow him out of fear. Dragons are not cowards. Alduin resurrected the other dragons. They owe him their lives. And there is great honor in fighting alongside the strongest dovah in mundus.

"Many of us have begun to question Alduin's lordship, whether his thuum was truly the strongest".

The LDB has bested many of Alduin's followers. They see the rise of the dragonborn, but "None were yet ready to openly defy him". Maybe it's out of fear, but it is fact that the other dragons owe their lives to Alduin.

"Serve you no. If and when you defeat Alduin I will reconsider."

The LDB hase defeated Alduin once before at the summit of the Throat of the World. This proves that the LDB is the greater. Let us not forget that the LDB is Shor and that Sovngarde is his domain. The LDB defeated Alduin once before and now he's going against him again but with the home court advantage. It should be common knowledge among the dovah that Shor has defeated Alduin before and that mere mortals shouted him from the sky. If Odahviin should be scared of anyone it should be the LDB. Odahviin does not serve the dragonborn because he owes his life (re-life) to Alduin and he cannot defy Alduin because of that.

But the whole point of this thread is to discuss the Hierarchy of dragons if one exists and because Paarthurnax was once Alduin's "lieutenant" and that Alduin himself has a "lordship", this implies there are other ranks among the dragon hierarchy, whether they follow him out of fear or honor.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

Tiber II wrote:

*snip*

You make dragons seem like cowards. When the LDB calls Odahviin with his Thu'um Odahviin answers 1)Because this intrigues him

and

2)Because he is honor bound to come.

The same goes for Durnehviir. The LDB makes a deal with Durnehviir and Durnehviir is honor bound to full fill his end of the bargan. Besides, after Odahviin is freed from his imprisonment, he could simply turn his back on the dragonborn. If he did the LDB would be able to defeat Alduin and Odahviin would have lost nothing.

You could argue that Odahviin was honor bound to Alduin, but that oath was made when there was only one choice for a leader. Alduin is the World Eater, first born of Akatosh. This gives him divine right to rule over all (dragons and mortals alike). The other dovah aren't stupid, they know Alduin the god of end times. I don't think the other dragons follow him solely out of fear. They now his thu'um is great (the greatest), but I'd like to think that they follow him for better reasons than their fear of him.

 

They aren't cowards, they are self-serving, resourceful and often pragmatic. I'm not talking about Odahviing's choice to fight the Dragonborn, but the choice to aid him over Alduin. Though, according to Esbern, Odahviing's choice to confront the Dragonborn was purely a matter of his own pride. The subsequent decision to help the Dragonborn was also not one he would have made had he thought that the Dragonborn was going to lose. He simply saw that at that point it better served his interests to turn on Alduin in favour of the DB. 

The Dragon hierarchy, if such a term can be used is certainly not based on fear, I never said that, I said that it is based on haggling, wrangling and bargaining over what is in the best interests of the dragon in question. If anything, fear has absolutely nothing to do with it, it is entirely about what a dragon wants. That is the difference between the dragon "system" and a human/elven traditional hierarchy. There is not an ounce of sacrifice involved. Unlike a king and a subject, the moment a dragon has to go against their own interests in order to serve an authority they abandon it. That often involves gambling against someone who is, individually, stronger than you. That is not fear. Dragons who follow Alduin do so because:

1. He resurrected them, so they literally are alive because of him. Very much in their interests. When they are resurrected most of the time Alduin is probably nearby (at least, powerful dragons) doing the resurrecting, so even if they do not wish to serve him in the future, they are unlikely to challenge him then.

2. They believe that a return to the dominance of dragons of humans would also be in their interests.

Hence, when Alduin is defeated, most Dragons simply went rogue, obeying no authority, it's not like the Dragonborn was able or necessarily willing to demand the obedience of all dragons. He is one mortal man, and he likely had no grand ambition regarding the dragons like Alduin did. There is probably an attitude of mutual respect between him and most dragons, he certainly has allies among dragons and can acquire more friends among Dov if his Thu'um is strong (bend will), but they would very much be equals, not subjects.

There is not much of a caste system ("you must obey this dragon because he is above your station"). There is arguably an organic command structure whereby powerful Dov are the most respected, but even then, that is down to the individual dragon. I'm sure many do follow Alduin out of fear, but that is not because they do not wish to rebel against a powerful hierarchy, but because they know that it would be counter to self-preservation to disobey. Their society, if you can even call it that is governed by a principle of personal independence. Loyalty is won through force, coercion or incentive, not owed based on caste. I suppose that doesn't mean that there is no hierarchy, it only means that it is very primitive, fluid, not particularly iron fisted. It is a byproduct of the dragon mentality, not a basis for it.

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Meh. Honor, pride. Same diff.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

Meh. Honor, pride. Same diff.

Personally perhaps, but honour has certain connotations of disregarding your own life to do your duty and such, pride is more to do with individual desires, irrespective of a greater whole. Odahviing did  not consider anything else when he answered the Dovahkiin's challenge.

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Tiber II wrote:

Tailin Sero wrote:

Meh. Honor, pride. Same diff.

Personally perhaps, but honour has certain connotations of disregarding your own life to do your duty and such, pride is more to do with individual desires, irrespective of a greater whole. Odahviing did  not consider anything else when he answered the Dovahkiin's challenge.

What I meant was whether it was honor or pride Odahviin would have acted the same.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

What I meant was whether it was honor or pride Odahviin would have acted the same.

Responded to the call? Yes. Switched sides? No.

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It is known that dragons often battled eachother in the skies, using the thu'um. I'd say that they all respect strenght, so a dragon that is known for their strenght would rise in ranks. The defeated ones are bound by honor to respect that dragon as a "lieutenant" or "lordship" or any other rank. They constantly battle to check which one is stronger. However, the fact of being a lower rank does not mean you are a kind of a pawn or peasant, it is more of a measurement of how formidable a certain dragon is and what value he has in a war. I think that "lieutenant" is just a word used by the Dragonguard, the only similar word in official Dovahzul is "Drog", which means "Lord". The dragons will follow whoever is stronger, because they admire strenght and fame, because they are proud... But for the same reason -pride -they would never think they are some kind of a low rank because they are not a "lordship".

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Tiber II wrote:

Tailin Sero wrote:

What I meant was whether it was honor or pride Odahviin would have acted the same.

Responded to the call? Yes. Switched sides? No.

"Switched sides" what?

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Tailin Sero wrote:

"Switched sides" what?

You think that Alduin would have tolerated Odahviing actively helping the Dragonborn? He flies you to Skuldafn in return for his release. He was essentially a POW who defected. His actions directly helped bring about Alduin's downfall, he knew this. He would not have done this if he was not convinced that the DB was capable of defeating Alduin. Alduin is not the type to show clemency to a traitor. If Alduin won, he would have known the DB could not have reached Skuldafn without a dragon's help and Odhviing's life would probably be forfeit. Sure, he does not vocally support the Dovahkiin until he knows that he has won, but his actions undeniably demonstrated a loss of any faith he had in Alduin and he decided to put his eggs in a new basket. I suppose you could argue that he was simply delivering the DB to Alduin, but it was probably common knowledge that the DB had fought off Alduin at the Throat of the World. Delivering the one who had defeated Alduin straight to Alduin is a very risky move either way, unless you have no confidence in Alduin's ability or authority. Indeed, Odahviing may have been planning to help the DB from the moment he heard of him, and only fought as a test of his strength before he could be certain that he was the right horse to bet on.

Either Odahviing betrays Alduin, knowing retribution would be likely if he defeated the DB, specifically in order to bring about his defeat, which shows his authority was never particularly strong, ergo there is little evidence of a hierarchical caste system, or he helped the Dragonborn with the knowledge that, if Alduin won, retribution was unlikely, which also shows a lack of enforcement or coercion, indicating a very loose system of control.

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Odahviin said, "Serve you no. If and when you defeat Alduin I will reconsider."

So, he hasn't "switched sides". He is simply allowing the LDB to challenge Alduin as is the honorable thing to do. Odahviin is like Roggvir. They both let a rebel into a place under their guard so he could challenge the current authority. Roggvir didn't support Ulfric. He simply allowed him to challenge King Torygg. Odahviin did the same. Neither case brake no laws, but uphold tradition.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

Odahviin said, "Serve you no. If and when you defeat Alduin I will reconsider."

So, he hasn't "switched sides". He is simply allowing the LDB to challenge Alduin as is the honorable thing to do. Odahviin is like Roggvir. They both let a rebel into a place under their guard so he could challenge the current authority. Roggvir didn't support Ulfric. He simply allowed him to challenge King Torygg. Odahviin did the same. Neither case brake no laws, but uphold tradition.

Of course Odahviing wouldn't serve the dragonborn, he does not wish to serve anyone, he's not someone's thrall. But, his actions clearly show he is more willing to help the dragonborn than Alduin. Otherwise he would have said "keep me here, I can bear this imprisonment until Alduin frees me, and I am loyal only to him." Instead, his reaction was "oh wait so if I help you I can get out of this trap? Okay, off to Skuldafn we go." His actions either way demonstrate there is very little in terms of a dragon government  or command structure. Either they are a betrayal, in which case Odahviing doesn't care about Alduin's authority, or it is not a betrayal to actively help the enemy, meaning that there was no loyalty there in the first place. Odahviing acted purely based on his own judgement of what would be best for him, his status in some kind of dragon hierarchy never crossed his mind. Imagine in WWII if a German soldier had been captured by the allies and agreed to take part in a plot to overthrow Hitler, it would very much be taken as a betrayal, not as neutrality. If, as you suggest, it is not seen as betrayal for a dragon to do effectively the same to Alduin, then it only proves that there is a lack of solid authority among dragons.

That said, Roggvir did break the law. That is, the Imperial law that is in place in Solitude, archaic traditions aren't legally binding. He still broke the law. Not by allowing Ulfric to enter, but by allowing him to escape. An old tradition of "if you kill a guy you get to rule Skyrim" is an outdated principle that no civil society governs itself by. It is never discussed in much detail whether it was codified law in Skyrim that a king killer became the king, but it is certainly not Imperial law, and Skyrim has been an Imperial province for 600 years. So it has probably not been law for centuries. However, Odahviing by comparison broke no laws as dragons don't seem to have laws. Hence why the Way of the Voice is so alien to Odahviing, being told what you should and shouldn't do is tyranny in his eyes. He aids the Dragonborn as a mark of respect to a strong equal, and because cool game mechanics, such a treaty is not something imposed on him from above by the DB. He is thus never serving anyone as a subject, but helping an equal out of respect. He did this before Alduin's defeat as well, to the point that he was instrumental in it.

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You're right, it is a betrayal. Odahviing also said, "Alduin has proven himself unworthy to rule." This implies that, at some point in time, Alduin was worthy of ruling the dragons and that he once had their loyalty and respect.

Since Alduin is/was a ruler (worthy or not), Paarthurnax was once his Lieutenant, and Odahviing is his right hand (confirmed by UESP), there is definitely a dragon hierarchy, but there are also many independent dov like Durnehviir.

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Tiber II wrote:

Of course Odahviing wouldn't serve the dragonborn, he does not wish to serve anyone, he's not someone's thrall. But, his actions clearly show he is more willing to help the dragonborn than Alduin. Otherwise he would have said "keep me here, I can bear this imprisonment until Alduin frees me, and I am loyal only to him." Instead, his reaction was "oh wait so if I help you I can get out of this trap? Okay, off to Skuldafn we go." 

No, it was because dragons cannot bear imprisonment. Numinex withered and forgot who he was when he spend the rest of his life as a prisoner. It's terrible to be in chains, those free and independent creatures will avoid being trapped at any cost.

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The Lusty Dovahkiin wrote:

No, it was because dragons cannot bear imprisonment. Numinex withered and forgot who he was when he spend the rest of his life as a prisoner. It's terrible to be in chains, those free and independent creatures will avoid being trapped at any cost.

Yes, and Odahviing cared more about that than Alduin's demands. If he believed Alduin would win, he probably wouldn't be imprisoned for nearly as long as Numinex. Yes, they are free and independent creatures, they will not sacrifice their lives or even their comfort for any alleged master. Hence, the moment Odahviing's own interests aligned with the dragonborn he began to help him. Odahviing purely acted for himself and nobody else. If there is a hierarchy, rather than a feudalistic web, then the dov themselves clearly do not care.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

You're right, it is a betrayal. Odahviing also said, "Alduin has proven himself unworthy to rule." This implies that, at some point in time, Alduin was worthy of ruling the dragons and that he once had their loyalty and respect.

Since Alduin is/was a ruler (worthy or not), Paarthurnax was once his Lieutenant, and Odahviing is his right hand (confirmed by UESP), there is definitely a dragon hierarchy, but there are also many independent dov like Durnehviir.

Perhaps there was a hierarchy in the merethic era, we know too little of that to make a clear judgment. But Alduin had not been around for very long at all in the 4th era and powerful dragons are already rejecting his lordship. For your right hand man to turn on you so soon, having been questioning him for a long time, does not imply a very rigid chain of command. Also, loyalty is not the same as servitude. Friends are loyal to one another, equals who respect each other are loyal. Loyalty and hierarchy are not mutually dependent. As Odahviing's dialogue proves, for dragons loyalty is won, not assumed based on station. And that is why he and many others who are supposedly very close to Alduin already question him. He has done little to earn their respect. He resurrected them, so they may be initially loyal out of gratitude, but soon turn on him when he seems to be unworthy of their respect. If there ever was a hierarchy, it is not nearly as clear now. It seems to be that Alduin has pretenses of Lordship, other dragons disagree. They don't challenge him directly as he is, individually, the strongest, but they don't go out of their way to follow his orders either.

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None of the dragons are very loyal to Alduin. From what Odahviing tells us it seems at least he resents the way Alduin holds himself above all other beings including other dragons. They follow him because of fear. Like Machiavelli who believed it is better to be feared than loved because the fear of punishment for acting against a ruler is eternal as long as that ruler has enough power to back it. Look at slavery though im not saying dragons are slaves to Alduin but it shows my point. Slaves follow obediently until they feel weakness in their owners. In 464 BC when an earthquake hit sparta killing a large number of their hoplites, the helots sensed weakness and they revolted. From what Odahviing tells us the at least some dragons didnt like Alduin and wanted to stand against him but they were too afraid of Alduin's power to do so.  Once Odahviing thought there was someone who could fight Alduin and win he jumped on the chance. He sensed weakness in their leader who held himself so greatly above any being even daedra and from what can be inferred a tyrant, and rebelled. Alduin's rule was fear based. Now from what I gather i see it as a two level society. You have Alduin at the top and way below him you have all other dragons who are equals. When the LDB is called dovah by the dragons it implies equality. He wasnt called lesser dovah or greater dovah but dovah. So this makes me think that all other dragons are equals but some were more respected than others. Now with Odahviing and the LDB I think its more like a situation of i will serve you and fight for you but its MY choice not the LDB's. With the LDB's rule its more of a voluntary rule where he leads the dragons who choose to follow him. But to sum it up all dragons except Alduin were equals with varying levels of respect and honor and then you have Alduin at the top.

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KingofBlades wrote:

From what Odahviing tells us the at least some dragons didnt like Alduin and wanted to stand against him but they were too afraid of Alduin's power to do so.

Odahviing said that no dragon would openly defy him. That doesn't mean they are scared of him., that doesn't mean they follow him out of fear. If all of the dragons "below" Alduin were scared of him, then why during the Dragon War did many dov turn against Alduin, when he was on the winning side? He had his full power and was winning, that doesn't sound like "weakness" to me.

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KingofBlades wrote:

None of the dragons are very loyal to Alduin. From what Odahviing tells us it seems at least he resents the way Alduin holds himself above all other beings including other dragons. They follow him because of fear. Like Machiavelli who believed it is better to be feared than loved because the fear of punishment for acting against a ruler is eternal as long as that ruler has enough power to back it. Look at slavery though im not saying dragons are slaves to Alduin but it shows my point. Slaves follow obediently until they feel weakness in their owners. In 464 BC when an earthquake hit sparta killing a large number of their hoplites, the helots sensed weakness and they revolted. From what Odahviing tells us the at least some dragons didnt like Alduin and wanted to stand against him but they were too afraid of Alduin's power to do so.  Once Odahviing thought there was someone who could fight Alduin and win he jumped on the chance. He sensed weakness in their leader who held himself so greatly above any being even daedra and from what can be inferred a tyrant, and rebelled. Alduin's rule was fear based. Now from what I gather i see it as a two level society. You have Alduin at the top and way below him you have all other dragons who are equals. When the LDB is called dovah by the dragons it implies equality. He wasnt called lesser dovah or greater dovah but dovah. So this makes me think that all other dragons are equals but some were more respected than others. Now with Odahviing and the LDB I think its more like a situation of i will serve you and fight for you but its MY choice not the LDB's. With the LDB's rule its more of a voluntary rule where he leads the dragons who choose to follow him. But to sum it up all dragons except Alduin were equals with varying levels of respect and honor and then you have Alduin at the top.

That sounds about right. All dragons below Alduin are equals until they come to blows, in which case obviously the stronger dragon survives. In the Merethic Era Alduin was most likely seen as a stronger leader by other Dovah, when he was defeated and dragons began to die out I guess they adopted an every man for himself, survival of the fittest mentality, which carried over into the 4th Era. Dragons may have died but their souls lived on, so I presume they retained that mentality and did not see Alduin as infallible. If all dragons were pawns of Alduin, he could simply order all of them to go and kill the Dragonborn at the same time, he'd have no chance. But Dragons seem only to fight one on one, as if their motives are purely their own.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

Odahviing said that no dragon would openly defy him. That doesn't mean they are scared of him., that doesn't mean they follow him out of fear. If all of the dragons "below" Alduin were scared of him, then why during the Dragon War did many dov turn against Alduin, when he was on the winning side? He had his full power and was winning, that doesn't sound like "weakness" to me.

According to the Greybeards, that was because Paarthurnax began to pity mortals. Paarthurnax, for whatever reason (possibly the intervention of Akatosh?), seems genuinely remorseful and sympathetic, so that does sound in line with his character. After hearing that he had trained mortals to use the Thu'um, some (though few) probably felt that the balance of power was no longer so one-sided.

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The definition of defy is to openly resist and to disobey. Now if we put this in lace of defy then the statement then it says none were yet ready to openly resist him. This doesn't mean they don't want to rebel against Alduin on the contrary it implies they wanted to but something was stopping them from doing so. It doesn't make sense that respect or loyalty was stopping them since they wanted to . The only thing that would stop them from rebelling against Alduin that makes sense is fear. Now from both Nordic tradition and imperial traditions the few not many but only a few dragons fought with man was because they were asked by a divine to aid man. We know its only a few because in the Dragon War book it specifically states only a few dragons aided man. Paarthunax committed mmany atrocities on man and would've continued to do so until he was told by the divines to do so. This likely gave Paarthunax and the few dragons alongside him hope that they could prevail against Alduin with divine will. It wasnt that Paarthunax saw weakness and wanted to rebel he was just fine slaughtering thousands of humans alongside Alduin but he was told by a god to do something and he wisely chose to listen to the God. The reasons for Odahviing's treachery and Paarthunax's are two completely different

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KingofBlades wrote:
The definition of defy is to openly resist and to disobey. Now if we put this in lace of defy then the statement then it says none were yet ready to openly resist him. This doesn't mean they don't want to rebel against Alduin on the contrary it implies they wanted to but something was stopping them from doing so. It doesn't make sense that respect or loyalty was stopping them since they wanted to . The only thing that would stop them from rebelling against Alduin that makes sense is fear. Now from both Nordic tradition and imperial traditions the few not many but only a few dragons fought with man was because they were asked by a divine to aid man. We know its only a few because in the Dragon War book it specifically states only a few dragons aided man. Paarthunax committed mmany atrocities on man and would've continued to do so until he was told by the divines to do so. This likely gave Paarthunax and the few dragons alongside him hope that they could prevail against Alduin with divine will. It wasnt that Paarthunax saw weakness and wanted to rebel he was just fine slaughtering thousands of humans alongside Alduin but he was told by a god to do something and he wisely chose to listen to the God. The reasons for Odahviing's treachery and Paarthunax's are two completely different

I would hypothosise that Paarthurnax's rebellion and the defeat of Alduin was probably Akatosh's doing, assuming we see the two as separate beings which they kind of are and aren't, but for the sake of simplicity lets say Alduin is the literal or metaphorical firstborn of the God of Time. By no means the same entity but from the same root. Alduin was basically getting too big for his boots, he was claiming lordship over not only mortals but dragons too (who are also children of Akatosh), and this went against the natural order of things. So Akatosh appealed to his second-born to help men defeat the belligerent pretender. I only think this because of the nature of Alduin's defeat; he was sent forward in time with a divine artifact. That strongly relates to both the thread of time, Akatosh's chief sphere of power, and divine intervention. 

I am not as much of a loremaster as others here, and I find the whole Alduin-Akatosh thing confusing and convoluted, as is to be expected from the centuries of intermingling between Nordic and Imperial religious doctrines in which interpretations of certain deities, and the lines between them, become blurred and indistinct. But divine intervention is pretty much the only explanation for the sudden turning of Paarthurnax on Alduin. It is also possible that this cast down notions of a hierarchy among the dragons, hence why many are now not content with Alduin attempting to reclaim rule of dragons. Odahviing's decision to aid Alduin's enemy may heave been purely pragmatic from his viewpoint but it would be interesting if it ultimately was an indirect result of the divine intervention that helped bring down Alduin in the Dragon War, by making other dragons lose faith in him or any ruler.

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Tiber II wrote:

I am not as much of a loremaster as others here, and I find the whole Alduin-Akatosh thing confusing and convoluted...

As I (and I believe many others) understand it:

Auriel/Auri-El is the Time God of creation (The Beginnig of Time)

Akatosh is more of a Present kind of thing. The Middle of time.

Alduin is the God of the End.

All three are fragments of Aka.