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Hatred of the Stormcloaks

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I was thinking about the generally anti-Stormcloak stances it seems that most Lore-People take, and the strengths and weaknesses of the general arguments used in those stances and debates, and thought it might be interesting to ask around here and find out what people thought on the subjects of...

 

The Pros/Cons of the Stormcloak Rebellion versus the Imperial Cause

Ulfric as a leader/person

Ulfric in connexion to the Thalmor

Ulfric and his people

Tullius and the Thalmor

Tullius and Elisif

Tullius and the Nords

 

To throw in my two cents, I'd say that I feel that the Stormcloak cause was a worthy one, however short-sighted, because it did something, and whereas it's all very well and good for the Empire to say it's preparing for another war, and say it's ready to strike back, but it much more difficult to actually step out there and start a war.

Now, as to the matter of Ulfric, I would be completely content to believe that he had cut all his ties to the Thalmor (who we know he worked for/with briefly at least, in the Markarth Incident and such) except for the manner in which he killed Torygg. Elisif has, I believe, a line or two about how Torygg respected Ulfric, and might even have sided with him, had they discussed it. Torygg's death certainly throws Skyrim into chaos, something the Thalmor would want, but at the same time, the Dossier on his says that he hasn't been very cooperative lately, which seems to take away from the idea he might be operating under Thalmor instructions.

Anyway, that's my little bit. I wanted to see what the Library thought about the whole situation, and what it might mean for the future.

Anchorite's picture
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I agree that the main problem for me with Ulfric's beliefs are that they are incredibly short-sighted, but my distaste for the Stormcloaks is more personal, and best explained by how I first encountered them in-game.

When I began play as a Dunmer, I initially sided with Ralof (For some reason he seemed more friendly ;) ). I then read how the Empire did nothing when the Argonians invaded my homeland, and so I decided to take his offer, and join the Stormcloaks.

However, as soon as I entered Windhelm, I was shocked and appalled. My people were being heckled in the streets, and were relegated to a run-down slum. The Argonians too, despite my character's misgivings for their species, gained my sympathies when I realized that they were not allowed to live in Windhelm proper. By Ulfric's own edict, they lived in a cramped storeroom in the docks!

After that, I joined the Legion. I didn't only not want to support Ulfric, I wanted him to get down on his knees like every Dunmer and Argonian laborer in Windhelm, and know what it's really like to be a second-class citizen.

My only regret is that it was not my hand that lopped his arrogant, privileged head from that healthy, well-fed body.

I'm sure in a reasoned debate there are many reasons to support Ulfric's rebellion. But I could not, in good conscience, ally myself with a man who lets such blatant oppression continue in his own city, where his word is law.

EDIT: Sorry that this uses more Pathos than Logos. It's midnight and I get emotional when it's late, lol.

Sotha Chill's picture
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That is exactly how I feel. I found the Dunmer to be a proud, and honorable race, despite them having political troubles in their homeland, and thus I have played games 3-5 as a Dunmer at least once. But the Stormcloak mistreatment of Dark Elves wan't the only reason I joined the Empire. There was that, The fact that the Empire is more organized, has at least 3 countries to provide men as of 4 era 201. (Cyrodiil, High Rock, and Orsinium) And the fact that the Empire has some of the greatest military minds in Tamriel(aside from Alinor, of course. I don't particularly like the Thalmor, however, they do have some of the greatest military minds Tamriel has ever seen.) The Stormcloaks, brave and strong as they are, probably wouldn't last long alone.

Dargor's picture
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I'm still recovering from being called a N'wah every five seconds on Vvardenfell, so seeing the Dunmer fall face first into the mud in Windhelm put a wee little smile on my face.

Anchorite's picture
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Ha! Well put. To be honest, I don't think that anyone besides the Dunmer shed a tear when the Ministry of Truth obliterated Vivec and sent a catastrophic shockwave throughout Morrowind.

The children of Veloth have fallen far from their haughty seat above all other peoples.

Outside of my in-game reaction, I just wasn't convinced that Ulfric was committing himself to action for the people of Skyrim. I just wasn't impressed by Ulfric's appeal for justice. It seemed more like him whining over his personal loss of dignity.

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Take a walk up to Refugee's Rest and read the placard outside.  Now picture yourself as a refugee having just escaped the hell of Red Year, and what sort of desperate and vulnerable position you'd be in, cast onto the mercy of your ancient enemies- not on the cultured, city types but the most backward and traditionalist holds.  Another of those ancient enemies is ravaging what's left of the south.  All the Nords would have to do is say "not our problem" and close their borders- as Cyrodiil did to Bosmer fleeing wars with the Khajiit- and you'd be cast further to the winds.  Tamriel being Tamriel, you'd probably expect them to then mount a raiding force to capitalize on your weakness and take back some of the disputed territory.

Instead of doing that, those backward hicks throw open their doors and not only give you land and refuge, they allow you to keep your traditions and rule yourselves without extracting any kind of pledge of loyalty.

Fast forward a few centuries, and some of these survivors or their children- a small minority- are calling it all an elaborate plot to keep the Dunmer down.

It's unconvincing to say the least.

Grogan gro-Shub's picture
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I didn't pick either side in the war; luckly, since I am an Altmer I am what you call a 'Thalmor sympithizer'. And also, I RP as one of the last Camoran dynasty. You could say that I'm also a 'bastard child' to Mankar Camoran! ;)

Sotha Chill's picture
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You could have survived the fall of the Mythic Dawn, and Altmer DO live longer than men...

Sotha Chill's picture
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Veleda wrote:

Take a walk up to Refugee's Rest and read the placard outside.  Now picture yourself as a refugee having just escaped the hell of Red Year, and what sort of desperate and vulnerable position you'd be in, cast onto the mercy of your ancient enemies- not on the cultured, city types but the most backward and traditionalist holds.  Another of those ancient enemies is ravaging what's left of the south.  All the Nords would have to do is say "not our problem" and close their borders- as Cyrodiil did to Bosmer fleeing wars with the Khajiit- and you'd be cast further to the winds.  Tamriel being Tamriel, you'd probably expect them to then mount a raiding force to capitalize on your weakness and take back some of the disputed territory.

Instead of doing that, those backward hicks throw open their doors and not only give you land and refuge, they allow you to keep your traditions and rule yourselves without extracting any kind of pledge of loyalty.

Fast forward a few centuries, and some of these survivors or their children- a small minority- are calling it all an elaborate plot to keep the Dunmer down.

It's unconvincing to say the least.

The Dunmer would have been better off being blocked from Skyrim. They could have moved to Solstheim like the others did. Or they could have moved to the mainland. OR they could have even entered Skyrim via another way, and found safer refuge in another city. This "small minority" you speak of takes up 1/4 of the population at the least, and 1/2 at the most. And apparently being insulted, pelted with rocks, and secretly tortured, is a "plot".

Veleda's picture
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Secretly tortured?  Rocks thrown?  Obviously I missed something.

Two drunks walk around shouting at night. I used to live on a street that turned into party zone central at 2am when the bars let out.  It was unpleasant, but hardly what I'd call oppressive. Further, I'm not aware of anyone chaining them to Windhelm.  In fact some of the Nords there would be glad if they shoved off.  But if you're talking about some kind of pervasive "institutional racism" or what have you, then I'm not seeing it.

The Nord employee of Belyn Hlaalu says she's too old to work such long hours and hopes that "Master Hlaalu" will let her slow down a bit.  Apparently she didn't get the memo that she's The Man.

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Veleda wrote:

Secretly tortured?  Rocks thrown?  Obviously I missed something.

Two drunks walk around shouting at night. I used to live on a street that turned into party zone central at 2am when the bars let out.  It was unpleasant, but hardly what I'd call oppressive. Further, I'm not aware of anyone chaining them to Windhelm.  In fact some of the Nords there would be glad if they shoved off.  But if you're talking about some kind of pervasive "institutional racism" or what have you, then I'm not seeing it.

The Nord employee of Belyn Hlaalu says she's too old to work such long hours and hopes that "Master Hlaalu" will let her slow down a bit.  Apparently she didn't get the memo that she's The Man.

If you paid more attention when you first enter the city, the men giving the Dunmer woman a hard time talk about paying her a secret visit at night AND pressure her to join the cause. people even talk about begging Ulfric to help them, but he does nothing.(I know Ulfric has the war to fight, but still.) The Dunmer refuse to leave, because they have ancestral ties to Windhelm, and the Nords are angered by this. Also, apparently saying "you eat our food, and pollute our city with your stink" isn't racist. If you talk to the Dunmer themselves, they account the Nords walking down the alley, and disturbing the peace, throwing rocks and yelling insults.

Veleda's picture
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I've heard that dialogue a hundred times. They're just threats from drunks who can barely stumble from mead to mead.  Suvaris Atheron works for Nords and brags about her business skill in between trashing the Argonian workers. No need to white knight her, or exaggerate one scripted event as if you'd never seen real torture in Tamriel.

What ancestral ties?  You mean the agitator pamphlet about how they actually own the place?  Typical Dunmer boastfulness.  Where don't they act like they own the place?

Anchorite's picture
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Veleda wrote:

Fast forward a few centuries, and some of these survivors or their children- a small minority- are calling it all an elaborate plot to keep the Dunmer down.

It's unconvincing to say the least.

You're right, in as far as the severity of the threats to the Dunmer of Windhelm. The danger to their person is quite minimal, and no matter how the civil war ends, their treatment doesn't change.

Of course, that doesn't mean I'm going to don stormcloak garb and hew the limbs off of legionnaires.

Also, remember that the Skyrim of the Red Year was much different from the Skyrim of 4E 201. Doubtless the Nords felt sympathy for their Elven neighbors, and decided that the only humane thing to do was to open up their eastern borders for the Dunmer immigrants.

The Stormcloak Rebellion was caused by a negative reaction to the White-Gold Concordat, which symbolized Man bowing to Mer: an affront to any traditionalist Nord.

These are two very separate points of view. The first is egalitarian and transnationalist. The second is inspired by injured pride and social conservatism. Let us not forget the meaning behind Tiber Septim's ascension: Man is triumphant over all. That is a beautiful, and terrifying, prospect.

Baldur Red-Snow's picture
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Here's what I have to say regarding some of the hate. Some points against them and Ulfric on the racism front and so on:

Spoiler: Highlight to view

The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction

 
Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

  • The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
  • Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

 
Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.

 

This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00094186

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00047ca7

 

^'Tear each other apart' being a clear sign they don't like each other.

 

Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.
 
 
 

Ulfric is a Power-Hungry Barbarian, The “Ulfric murdered the High King”-argument, and The issue of Ulfric killing Torygg instead of talking to him.

 
An argument that is commonly defended is that Ulfric is power hungry and a savage. To those who say he's power hungry, you're right. Congradulations. But is that a bad thing? I assume when people say this, they mean that he is power hungry for the sake of power alone. That is false. He wants power so that he can do what his supporters want him to, which is to save Skyrim from the Empire's influence and restore Talos worship. Don't believe me? Does this sound like the words of one who fights for the sake of having power alone?

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2A_5kBJduIg

For those of you who say he's just acting...come on, really? In his palace with the grand total of one stranger? No.

People also say him killing Torygg is proof of his hunger for power, because his court mage says he was a fan of him, and he agreed with what Ulfric was saying, and Ulfric should have talked to him first. Do you see the contradiction? Torygg's court wizard says Torygg knew of his agenda, and Ulfric stated them at the last moot to the point to where he spoke just shy of treason. Torygg, the High King of Skyrim should have said something then if he agreed. And they say he should have asked Torygg one last time before he issued his challenge, but from Ulfric's perspective this would have been stupid. He's in the middle of the Imperial seat of power in Skyrim at the mercy of the Emperor's greatest Skyrim supporter who swore an oath to him, and showed no evidence of agreeing with Ulfric at the moot, and Ulfric is supposed to risk being arrested for treason in the belly of the beast?

A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

This does not sound like the workings of a savage to me. It sounds like one who knows his people's politics and knew how to play them well. People may think he's savage only because of the nature of the Nordic politics, which is outdated compared to non combat loving countries. Ulfric can't be held accountable for playing the politics. He didn't make the rules. And as said before, Ulfric did not murder the High King, he fought Torygg in a duel. Whether you think it was dishonorable or what have you is a different issue. Torygg knew that Ulfric had the Thu'um, and accepted the fight anyway. He also knew he was a seasoned warrior, and likely still would have lost the fight. To Nords, a duel to the death even with the thu'um that is revered in their culture is not dishonorable or cowardly. His use of the thu'um simply shows he was the stronger. Whether you believe that or not isn't the point. The Nords do.

Also: http://forums.bethso...-me/?p=22498185
 
 
Indeed. Which means Ulfric would have wasted his time talking further, and he made the right call.

Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/...ear_of_Markarth

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

 

Courtesy of Tdroid:

 

https://docs.google....XRZWkdWbzA/edit

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092335

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x00092331

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000e1623

 

http://uesp.net/wiki...honar's_Journal
 
 

“Ulfric misused the Voice”

 
This point is irrelevant, as the only people who follow this are the Grey Beards, and Ulfric who was training to be one was taken as a child to be one. While he does not seem to resent the Grey Beards for this, it still shows that he can't be held accountable for an oath he didn't willfully make. It is however possible that he was willing to make the oath, but he was still a child, and this was before his home was in turmoil. The Thu'um is clearly a weapon meant to be used. In the Nord pantheon, Kynareth, or Kyne to the Nords is a warrior goddess:

Jump to: navigation, search
Kyne (Kiss At The End), or Kaan in the dragon language, is the Nordic goddess of the Storm, widow of Shor, Warrior-Wife, and a favored god of warriors

Why would a warrior goddess give the Nords a power that is clearly meant as a weapon to be passive? Jurgen Windcaller only suddenly "realised this" after the Dunmer whooped him silly, then forced other Thu'umers into his way of thinking, claiming the gods punished them for their misuse of the Thu'um. This is a clear case of "Hurtfeelioma". Even with using the Thu'um, Ulfric still says he doesn't use it lightly. Ulfric did not misuse the thu'um. The Grey Beards say otherwise, but Arngeir also thinks you're wrong for using Dragonrend on Alduin to save the world.
 

http://forums.bethso...rds/?p=22999537

 

 

 

Before people start saying stuff about oathbreaking, let me remind all that Greybeards are supposed to use their voice in times of true need:

 

Contrary to popular misconceptions, the Greybeards are not, strictly speaking, pacifists; the Way of the Voice teaches only that violence is the least of the Voice's uses, and it should be used for that purpose only in times of "True Need".[7]

 

He used it originally to fight in the great war, then again to free Markarth, then the controversial one with Torygg. That to me is true need, because he used it to rally men to his cause, which in my opinion is for true need. To make Skyrim independent and free of the WGC. You can argue against it, but there's no official rule for what true need is, so its up for interpretation. More Nords would join his cause if the leader of a rebellion used the power of the heroes of old to accomplish a goal to be like the old honored Nords. There lies the true need, more men for what he considers a good cause. Arngeir obviously forgot about the true need part:

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x0003f884

 

Ulfric to me seems to be the one who is following the original purpose of the Greybeards. He still seems to follow it now, as he says he knows its not to be used lightly:

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc41

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc43

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bfc46

 

He may not realize it, but really, using the voice for troubles like this is what the greybeards were supposed to do.

 

The “Trade being hurt”

 
Trade at first will possibly be hurt, as the court wizard of Solitude says, but it will most likely pick up again, if it even drops at all. Why?

1. The trade between the two, namely Cyrodiil and Windhelm is just too important. Both provinces will need to keep up trade, because both are dependent on resources from eachother, and both need to rebuild, especially the Empire. They can't afford to cut themselves off of Skyrim's resources.

2. The East Empire Trading Company still operates out of Windhelm. If trade was going to be an issue, why would they still work with the rebels and trade? Either the Company despite its leaders being originally appointed by the Emperor doesn't listen to the Empire, or the Empire simply can't afford to hault trade, and neither can Skyrim.

So because of these two reasons, it seems highly unlikely that trade will cease with Skyrim. Maybe it will deteriorate temporarily, but it is doubtful. Especially when the two are in war prep for the next Great War against the Thalmor.

 

This dialogue suggests as much. Especially the second one:

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000665e0

 

http://cs.uesp.net/i...rmid=0x000bc181

 

 

 

That's just some as a starting point to go by.

 

Veleda's picture
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The White Gold Concordat was only the last straw.  Skyrim's Rule says "Many seemed unhappy with the Empire's continued presence in their land."  That makes it a more general distaste of being ruled over by an increasingly weak Cyrodiil, and the WGC just a particularly contentious flashpoint.

Sotha Chill's picture
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Veleda wrote:

What ancestral ties?

Umm... the fact that they have been living there for near 200 years? I wasn't talking about them owning the place, just that their ancestors lived there.

and Oh, I've seen torture, My class had to watch a 50 minute video on the Holocaust and Hitler's "final decision" in 7th grade, so dont even get me started.

You do't know what their intentions are. Sure they're drunk, but that doesnt mean that they can't do some messed up stuff. In fact the fact that they ARE  drunk may influence them to actually cause damage.

Baldur Red-Snow's picture
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Seems like a lot of reaching to me. There's nothing indicating anything beyond threats, and they say he's the worst. Pretty lame if you're talking about wrongdoings to the Dunmer. And pretty tame for TES as well.

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the political system of skyrim is set up like medieval France with many different rulers and all of these rulers have their own agenda quite different from one another the possibility of another civil war after the stormcloak rebellion is very high maybe not on the same scale but just as important for the provinces future the best thing that could happen to skyrim would be a war with one of their neighbors like what hideyoshi did after unifying japan he sent all the soldiers to fight in Korea while he rebuilt Japan the way he wanted it.

 

Veleda's picture
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Sotha Chill wrote:

Veleda wrote:

What ancestral ties?

Umm... the fact that they have been living there for near 200 years? I wasn't talking about them owning the place, just that their ancestors lived there.

Ah, well that being a normal lifespan for an elf, it hardly rates as ancestral ties in Tamrielic terms.  Some of those in the Grey Quarter could well be Red Year survivors themselves.  Suvaris' dialogue indicates they don't consider Skyrim their home, because as she says, the civil war "is not our fight."

Quote:
You do't know what their intentions are. Sure they're drunk, but that doesnt mean that they can't do some messed up stuff. In fact the fact that they ARE  drunk may influence them to actually cause damage.

Neither do you, so the point is moot.  Rolff will befried you if you beat him up, and that includes a Dunmer PC.

It's possible that ethnic tensions in Skyrim could lead to violence, but this is no less likely to happen if the empire remains in control and the WGC continues to be enforced.  Some individuals will always look for scapegoats for their problems and settle on the "other" as the source.

Maiq The Liar's picture
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When ever I start a new Skyrim save, I always promise myself to join the Stormcloaks. Then i stroll into Windhelm just to see those two Stormcloaks being racist to that dark elve, from then on I always join the imperials. 

Xarnac The Conqueror's picture
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I don't understand lore partisanship (race or politics wise). As a pragmatist and someone who wants to get everything out of the series over multiple characters, I have RPs on either side of the political fence.

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Maiq The Liar wrote:

When ever I start a new Skyrim save, I always promise myself to join the Stormcloaks. Then i stroll into Windhelm just to see those two Stormcloaks being racist to that dark elve, from then on I always join the imperials. 

So the antidote to two drunks (one a former Stormcloak, the other not a soldier at all) harassing a Dunmer woman (who also expresses less than charitable attitudes towards other races) is to enforce a system founded on the idea that the only legitimate rulers of the entire continent are Cyrodiils.

Seems legit.

LoneWoldEburg's picture
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I think that we're supposed to think of the Windhelm Dunmer as discriminated, but their "oppression" is all tell, no show. To clear a bunch of misconcepts in Baldur Red-Snow's analysis, there's nothing that suggests that the High King that invited them ever legislated segregation ("self-government" is not "segregation") towards them, or granted them freedom from taxes (not seeing this in the charter again, the 'compensation' in 'no compensation' refers to a supposed one-time payment for accepting them, not to some kind of tax immunity)*. And their segregation is forced on them (attested by the independent sources of Alfarinn the Nord carriage driver and Aval Atheron). They also don't seem to be self-governed. At least, no Skyrim government magistrate of theirs is attested in-game, so it seems like the whole self-government business slowly drifted away.

However, Stormcloak defenders are right to point out that the Dunmer of Windhelm are quite well off (their ranks include two merchants**, a farm owner and a tavern owner), that Rolff Stone-Fist is pretty mild when it comes to being "their biggest problem"***, and that Suvaris Atheron is quite an Asshole Victim.

The supposedly xenophobic Elda Early-Dawn hiring a Dunmer bard (Luaffyn) whom the supposedly racist Rolff leaves alone, the sailor Voldsea Gyrion walking around the Windhelm streets with nary a peep from these so-called "xenophobic Windhelm Nords" make the whole thingy even more all-tell-no-show. I almost want to shout at Elda and Rolff: "hey, you two, if you're supposed to be oh-so-racist, you need to repeat your Racism 101 course".

The utter incompetence of Windhelm Nords when it comes to being properly racist towards the Dunmer annoyed me so much, that I released a mod which adds more Nord racists in Windhelm and, though their dialogue, partially implicates the inhabitants of the Palace of the Kings in this racism.  

I don't really see any justifications for the whole Argonian situation, though. The "Ulfric is afraid of Argonian-Dunmer race riots" justification is fan-provided (no character in-game ever hints at such a motivation), the Argonians at the docks aren't particularly revengeful types at all, and Riften provides a decisive counter-example - for all problems this wretched hive of a city has, race tentions and Argonians wanting revenge on the Dunmer isn't one. Race riots in Riften would definitely harm Maven's business, the fact that she, a very shrewd and pragmatic kind of villain, isn't bothered by their possibility, shows that this justification is strained. Darkwater Crossing is also a minor counter-example - no one ever mentions of Derkeethus and Sondas Drenim being at each other's throats or something. The Argonians of Skyrim just don't have any particular fervor towards the An-Xileel state to start aping its policy towards the Dunmer, and there's nothing to suggest that it will change. It seems that those with affinity to it had already left the province.****

__________________________________________________________________

*Additional confirmation of the fact that they pay taxes - if you return Viola Giordano's ring to her, revealing that it was in posession of Revyn Sadri, she is understandably outraged and promises to go to the Jarl and petition to double or triple Revyn's taxes. Doesn't make much sense to do so, if he pays none...  

**Who all but admit in dealing stolen goods. Way to create sympathy for the poor oppressed Windhelm Dunmer, Bethesda writers. Honestly, what's with the Elven fetchers in Windhelm (add Niranye in the mix, too). Makes me suspect that old Nurelion also sells smuggled ingredients, lol.

***Not to mention Angrenor "Wohoo, the initial Windhelm scene is over! Time to drop my bigotry like a hot potato and never mention it again!" the Once-Honored.

****If you give Scouts-Many-Marshes a package to visit the New Gnisis Cornerclub, he'll have quite friendly dialogue scenes with Ambarys Rendar. They're not played in game due to S-M-M not ever being near Ambarys, so this is more of a trivia then anything, albeit an intriguing one.  

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I guess since I'm mentioned here, I'll just post the relevant bits from the other thread for the record. First, the taxes issue:

Baldur Red-Snow wrote:

Just because we have a reference to a business being taxed, doesn't mean the other non business owning citizens are, and also, something like this could easily be a dev oversight when the whole taxing business is in an obscure text most people don't find, and we see dev oversights all the time.

Baldur Red-Snow wrote:

No compensation does point to that, but if that isn't enough:

Quote:

"untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

Untithed refers to taxes as well.

The segregation issue:

Baldur Red-Snow wrote:

What about Riften? Riften isn't Windhelm, seat of Stormcloak power, but even so, there's still evidence of racism there as well. And even if it weren't, that's like saying racial tensions in alabama shouldn't exist because there's less somewhere else.

Baldur Red-Snow wrote:

The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the Hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morrowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen. Now, the Hist only affects those in close proximity to Blackmarsh or those in Blackmarsh, But Ulfric wouldn’t know that. But…

.

This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00094186

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00047ca7

^’Tear each other apart’ being a clear sign they don’t like each other.

Baldur Red-Snow wrote:

And again, I don't think the dock workers would automatically go killing dunmer, however, if we're to believe that the dunmer and argonians who are so close to the border of morrowind where argonians were invading and killing Dunmer not that long ago, have no racial tensions whatsoever, I think we'd be fools.

At most, I'd say that Ulfric's choice to segregate them is maybe too preemptive. However, if I were in his shoes, I couldn't say I wouldn't do the same, when my land and people's future is on the line, and the war funding is coming out of my pocket. And I'm no racist. It's easy to say things like that when in our cozy society where anything with a hint of racism is branded a Nazi.

As for them being forcefully segregated, how else would you keep people segregated if there was no one to enforce it? That seems obvious, within the city limits, that is, and only as far as homes go, clearly since the Dunmer Hlaalu has Nord workers. And the decree may not say that they were to be segregated if in the city, but it seems obvious this would happen when you have refugees living somewhere for free. Why else would they give them a whole island for themselves? They obviously didn't originally want them crowding in Skyrim, and this suggests as much:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:On_the_Great_Collapse

A sudden surge of population because of poor homeless refugees is always a problem for the city that faces the issue.

 

And as said before in the other thread, Rolff being a racist doesn't discredit what he says. Projecting his desire on someone he dislikes doesn't really make sense in the context of what he says about Dunmer and Argonians tearing eachother appart. If I hate two people that work together, saying to put them in a hole and let them tear each other apart doesn't make sense.

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I don't see what's wrong in the Stormcloaks being 'racist' or prejudiced. It makes perfect sense, really. Especially in their hatred towards Mer. I wish everyone would stop worrying about 'omg am i wacist' and actually play the bloody game and create a character that's worth mentioning.

In fact, almost every character (all of my Mer characters) usually hold their race in higher regard than the other races. All of my Altmer characters have been unashamed Altmer supremacists and my Dunmer charactes have all been rather xenophobic (it's needless to say all my Altmer characters are this too).

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I know we already discussed this in this other thread, but the point is not that Rolff is consciously lying. He may be just saying what he's thinking, simple as that.

He doesn't lie, but doesn't necessarily truly has a grasp on the situation.

A little bit of psychology. We all admit that Rolff's racist. Racist people are generally not interested in learning about the reality of the culture of those that they despise. They can be content with a minimum of info, because it permits them to safely continue to hate those cultures/people - because knowing to much about the Other makes you automatically more close to that Other, and it's much too frightening for those people, because they have great trouble with accepting the Other as different in general-, all the while using the little bits of info and steterotypes that float around to continue to talk about them, because that's not menacing to their identities.

So, if we admit that we can't be sure if Rolf knows, then maybe he's just sying what he's thinking. The question then would be : what is he thinking? Of course, since he likes neither Dunmer nor Argonians, it would make sense to throw out comments that show both people under unfavorable light - as being at "each others' throats", for instance.

Honestly, it just sounds so real to me, I've seen such situations often in real life, racist or just ignorant people condescendingly saying about some other people that they "can't even get along amongst themselves", with the very finly veiled idea of them being savages and uncivilized and so on.

Ok, I just went berserk and used social psychology to analyze Rolff's mind (of all people ...), so it might be time to go to bed now ... Happy further discussing!

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Tauryon wrote:

I don't see what's wrong in the Stormcloaks being 'racist' or prejudiced. It makes perfect sense, really. Especially in their hatred towards Mer. I wish everyone would stop worrying about 'omg am i wacist' and actually play the bloody game and create a character that's worth mentioning.

In fact, almost every character (all of my Mer characters) usually hold their race in higher regard than the other races. All of my Altmer characters have been unashamed Altmer supremacists and my Dunmer charactes have all been rather xenophobic (it's needless to say all my Altmer characters are this too).

I agree with you, it is a rather small issue to the topic at hand, but with the world we live in today, especially with Americans, racism is such a big issue, that even a hint of it rustles their jimmies. Though with that in mind, it's odd that people were so willing to ignore Dunmer racism in Morrowind, and even in Skyrim:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dunmer_of_Skyrim

Or in Oblivion from Imperials:

http://colonelkillabee.tumblr.com/post/68999802440/stormcloak-bible-part...

Quote:

"NORDS ARE DEH RACUSTS. Empiyur es deh equalities"

.

No. The Empire not only is racist, they’re likely as racist as everyone else if not more. Because of how Imperialism works. Imperialism sets up a dominant culture, and the dominant culture is seen as supreme. This makes the members of that culture feel that their culture is necessary for others to function, or that theirs is just better in general. Like this:

.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/214/5/c/racist_general_tullius_by_ysmirstormcrown-d6gabx2.jpg

.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c

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Which sounds a lot like:

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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/white+man%27s+burden

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Replace “white” with Imperial.

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That’s a direct quote from Mr. Tullius. Nevermind that he starts respecting the Nords or whatever later (even though he still shows disregard at the end for nord culture when he says “Wherever it is you people go when you die” when talking to Ulfric), this shows the mentality of the Imperials. And make no mistake, that IS racist. And if you say that the Empire doesn’t have as many racists as Skyrim….

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Oh contraire mon frere!

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wolf_Queen,_v1

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Baenlin Dead

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mach-Na

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arentus_Falvius

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Isa_Raman

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dervera_Romalen

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Countess_Alessia_Caro

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tsavi

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Alessia_Ottus   Read all of her books.

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Julitta_Plotius

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Betto_Plotius

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A Dunmer with an Imperial? Say it ain’t so!

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Glistel

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Malintus_Ancrus

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Imperial supporters and their hypocrisy:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bd71e

 

And for those of you who thinks this actually matters, though it shouldn't, I am multiracial. Black and White, yet even I think the race issue is over talked, over hyped and just plain worn out. It's time we mature and get over the past, or we'll just keep picking at the scab and never heal. Nords aren't Nazis. Ulfric isn't HItler. And Dunmer are not oppressed. And these points are just a distraction from the negatives of the Empire.

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Happy Hist Friend wrote:
snip

Honestly, I think you're over analyzing his statement to dismiss what is said. Yes, he was saying what he was thinking. And that is what shows that there is some tension between those groups. What's more absurd, that a racist isn't a liar and does know what he's talking about, and that his comment accurately shows that two cultures that not too long ago were warring with each other have tension?

 

Or that there's no tension, and Dunmer and Argonians are all holding hands, despite the conflict just over the border?

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It's rather painfully clear that the Nords are Nord supremacists just as much as the Thalmor  (and, by extension the AD) are Merish supremacists. It's just how they are. Given the past relationship with Nords and Mer, it's easy to see why both sides generally hate each other.

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Tauryon wrote:

It's rather painfully clear that the Nords are Nord supremacists just as much as the Thalmor  (and, by extension the AD) are Merish supremacists. It's just how they are. Given the past relationship with Nords and Mer, it's easy to see why both sides generally hate each other.

Now that, I don't agree on. If the Nords were supremacists, why would they have any Nords working for dunmer, like the Hlaalu farmer? The Nords do not harp on about Nordic supremacy like the Thalmor, and they're nowhere in the same league as the Thalmor, or the Dunmer of Morrowind. They're distrusting of outsiders, and they do have their bad apples, just like anywhere, but to say this of them as a culture is ignorant of who they are. And I don't mean ignorant as an insult, since this is a fictional race. The altmer in the city doing quite well for themselves and being business owners should be enough to disprove these accusations. As should the Hlaalu farm owner.

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Also, saying the aldmeri dominion consists of mer supremacists is also inaccurate, as the Khajiit are a part of the dominion, and the Thalmor have faced opposition to their rule. I'm sure a large amount of them are, but the Thalmor are not universally supported within their borders.