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On the Canonicity of TESO

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Raga's picture
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Elsewhere on the internet, where TES lore is discussed, the line was very clear between how posters felt about the lore of mainline TES games versus TESO. I am impressed at the amount of lore the MMO has produced for itself, however I would be lying if I said I was never frustrated to see it collated with Beth's lore. I am reluctant to recognize it based on the fact that TESO was not developed by Bethesda Game Studios, with no oversight from Todd, Kurt, Emil, or Michael Kirkbride. I might be wrong, and encourage others to correct me in this. But it makes navigating the uesp rather treacherous for me, feeling forced to check the notes and sources of articles.

It has me wondering if any of the material produced by Zenimax Online will have any bearing on Beth's Elder Scrolls games going forward.

Am I alone here in my feelings? Am I about to be torn to shreds? I'm not looking to stir shit up, or compare the two qualitatively. I'm simply trying to gauge the sentiments here.

And I am absolutely turning my nose up at that CCG Zenimax launched recently.

Yes, I am an ass. I know.

Tailin Sero's picture
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I know what you mean and i agree. TES: Legends gets a similar rep., but i am more accepting of it. I think it's because Legends is more-or-less follows the already established lore (excluding Red Bramman, but that is another discussion).

I want to say more, but I am tired now and I can't focus on this, atm.

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Raga wrote:

Elsewhere on the internet, where TES lore is discussed, the line was very clear between how posters felt about the lore of mainline TES games versus TESO. I am impressed at the amount of lore the MMO has produced for itself, however I would be lying if I said I was never frustrated to see it collated with Beth's lore. I am reluctant to recognize it based on the fact that TESO was not developed by Bethesda Game Studios, with no oversight from Todd, Kurt, Emil, or Michael Kirkbride. I might be wrong, and encourage others to correct me in this. But it makes navigating the uesp rather treacherous for me, feeling forced to check the notes and sources of articles.

It IS a TES game, maybe not developed by Bethesda, but published by it and often supported by Bethesda. They stream and play the game. There is a very careful and close oversight of Bethesda developers over ESO, they have a lot to say about anything that appears in game. Bethesda's own lore conflicts with itself, so I see no problem here.

Raga wrote:

It has me wondering if any of the material produced by Zenimax Online will have any bearing on Beth's Elder Scrolls games going forward.

Yes,  because of what I said above. Bethesda decides what is in the game (and I don't mean every little thing but the lore in general), therefore it influences future games like the previous TES games do.

Raga wrote:

Am I alone here in my feelings? Am I about to be torn to shreds? I'm not looking to stir shit up, or compare the two qualitatively. I'm simply trying to gauge the sentiments here.

To me, you are alone with your feelings. I said what I know and I have no problems with ESO. I love it, I'm a player who sticks with it since the beta and I saw it progress and develop, that was a great and hard way. It's lore is nothing wrong.

It's a TES game. It's canon.

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The Lusty Dovahkiin wrote:

It IS a TES game, maybe not developed by Bethesda, but published by it and often supported by Bethesda. 

It is published by Bethesda Softworks. Though they share a similar name with Bethesda Game Studios they are not the same company.

The Lusty Dovahkiin wrote:

Bethesda's own lore conflicts with itself, so I see no problem here.

True, but it is Bethesda's lore to mess up. If a 3rd party developer want's to add to the lore they should at least be consistent with the pre-established lore. Leave it to BGS to screw with their own lore. We don't need a 3rd party to do it, too.

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Bethesda Softworks and Bethesda Game Studios are closely related, though. Both Bethesdas cooperate with ZOS.

ZeniMax Online Studios is not just some third party company. It's a sister company to Bethesda, both of them belong to ZeniMax Media.

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Bethesda Softworks is the publisher. It has no hand in writing lore. Bethesda Game Studios is the developer and they have no hand in making ESO or Legends (or Fallout New Vega for that matter).

Seeing how ZOS, and Direwolf (and Obsidian, again for Fallout: NV) are not BGS they are considered 3rd party developers, even though they are/might be owned by the same parent company, Zenimax Media Inc..

So technically speaking, ESO is a ZOS game, Legends is a Direwolf game, and Fallout: NV is an Obsidian game. All of which are published by Bethesda Softworks, none of which are developed by BGS.

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No, ZOS was created to make ESO, it was it's purpose, and Bethesda Game Studios has a hand in writing lore, so they mess their own lore if it happens, but I did not see much of that happening. Bethesda developers said that themselves (that they have a big say in what goes on in ESO). You think like Bethesda GS never did anything with ESO and ignored it, which is 100% false.

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I really did not mean to engender argument. Lusty, you are very sure that BGS had/has direct influence on ESO. It's just that I've never seen or read Todd/BGS say anything about ESO other than "it's its own thing." The glaring inconsistencies with established lore coupled with Schick's audacious claim that the mainline games are "fanciful portrayals" as opposed to the MMO really help isolate it further.

I didn't know BGS streams ESO, though. I don't watch streams normally, so I can miss out on stuff like that. I can't find any archives of it when I look. Do you know if there are any up somewhere?

I'm really just looking for any acknowledgement at all from BGS that validates ESO as 'counting.' It shares the name and the parent company, and is inspired by BGS's work. But that really seems to me where the relation ends. But because there's next to no word from BGS on it, I'm unsure where it stands.

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Another thing, if Bethesda GS had an active hand in making ESO then their logo would be on the cover. Only Zenimax and Beth Softworks logos are present.

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Tailin, they don't have to be on the box. They are asked about the lore and they can decide, they influence the game. It does not have to be such official cooperation. I bet I heard that in a stream or a showcase or anything like this, I will post it when I find it. I never saw a game with two game-making companies on one box.

BGS doesn't have a twitch or YT, all their works are represented by BS too, like ESO's. You can see streams on Bethesda Softworks youtube channel. Same with Pete Hines' streams of TES: Legends, btw (I think? didn't check that one, but it was indeed streamed by Beth as well). Hey, if a game has "The Elder Scrolls" in its title and was released by Bethesda Softworks and is supported by the company's twitch, it is a legit game to me. BGS having a say in everything makes it better.

Also, Pete is mentioned in this article, he and his family plus other known Beth's members do play or test ESO, not only cooperate with ZOS. I don't see a reason why ZOS would not cooperate with Bethesda about lore, especially because I can bet all my septims that I once heard someone say they do cooperate. I never said that BGS do actually sit down and write all pieces of lore for ESO, I said that they have a say and can decide what actually can be in the game. Shick puts all his ideas and Beth's decisions/suggestions together, imo. He might be the lead loremaster, but he can't do everything he would like.

If you want to read more positive things on ESO's lore, see that I'm not the only one, look here.

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"The glaring inconsistencies with established lore coupled with Schick's audacious claim that the mainline games are "fanciful portrayals" as opposed to the MMO really help isolate it further"

That's ridiculous. ESO has no more glaring inconsistencies with the other games than Bethesda's TES games, in fact it has less than both Skyrim and Oblivion; both of which completely rewrote the lore of the province they were set in. Also, it has been stated that the Bethesda lore team have to approve of all major additions to the lore in ESO. So it's still Bethesda who are messing with it. That Schick quote was about all TES games, including ESO. If you are trying to make an argument, please use facts instead of lies.

"I'm really just looking for any acknowledgement at all from BGS that validates ESO as 'counting.' It shares the name and the parent company, and is inspired by BGS's work. But that really seems to me where the relation ends. But because there's next to no word from BGS on it, I'm unsure where it stands."

Except for every single quote from Pete hines and Lawrence Schick ever. They have both stated that ESO is entirely canon and is a fully fledged part of the TES franchise. It seems to me like you didn't make any research whatsoever before writing this.

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"True, but it is Bethesda's lore to mess up. If a 3rd party developer want's to add to the lore they should at least be consistent with the pre-established lore. Leave it to BGS to screw with their own lore. We don't need a 3rd party to do it, too."

But Bethesda still has to approve all major lore additions in ESO, as has been sated by Schick, and ESO is way more in line with previous TES games than every single Behesda TES game has been since Daggerfall. Also, ZOS was created specidically to create ESO and is extremely closely tied to BGS, and has plenty of ex-BGS developers working for it. It's hardly a third party.

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Voshu Ornim wrote:

"The glaring inconsistencies with established lore coupled with Schick's audacious claim that the mainline games are "fanciful portrayals" as opposed to the MMO really help isolate it further"

That's ridiculous. ESO has no more glaring inconsistencies with the other games than Bethesda's TES games, in fact it has less than both Skyrim and Oblivion; both of which completely rewrote the lore of the province they were set in. Also, it has been stated that the Bethesda lore team have to approve of all major additions to the lore in ESO. So it's still Bethesda who are messing with it.

Firstly, relax.

Oblivion is an inexcusable travesty and I'll never forgive that. To say that Skyrim's lore was completely rewritten is inaccurate; they downplayed the Thu'um as a part of every day Nordic life by creating Jurgen Windcaller, as well as attributed its origins to the dragons (neither really conflict, just add.) But if there are any Oblivion-tier dismissals, I encourage you to educate me, or at least point me in the right direction. They more or less adhered to the PGE. There was even a painted cow. I can appreciate the retroactive explanations for ESO's inaccuracies, though, like explaining that the books that shouldn't exist yet are strewn about by Mora; it shows they care at least a little bit.

Voshu Ornim wrote:
That Schick quote was about all TES games, including ESO. If you are trying to make an argument, please use facts instead of lies.

"We like to think of previous Elder Scrolls games as fables; sort of 'fanciful portrayals' of legend. With Elder Scrolls Online we're giving you the real world of Tamriel."

And I'm not trying to make an argument. I'm looking for sources as well as gauging TIL's general feelings on the matter. Again, relax. I never meant offense.

Voshu Ornim wrote:
Except for every single quote from Pete hines and Lawrence Schick ever. They have both stated that ESO is entirely canon and is a fully fledged part of the TES franchise. It seems to me like you didn't make any research whatsoever before writing this.

I did, and I said I couldn't find much. Schick's words don't really mean a whole lot to me for reasons that should be obvious, however I didn't know Hines has commented on ESO's canonicity. That could assuage my concerns, but I can't find any sources myself. I'd definitely appreciate it if you could share.

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I can't comment on specifics, because I don't play mmorpgs, and I've long drifted out of rpgs, but this is Bethesda, we're talking about - whatever it's logo - their only canon is keep it trendy.

Also, Pete Hines? What's the middleman between a developer and their publisher got to know about lore? I'm sure he's never technically wrong, but he isn't involved in the worldbuilding, so he lacks any context behind his statements.

Yes, ESO is canon. And ^ that ^ Schik quote - the one about REAL Tamriel? We can laugh that off. They'll ditch his bullshit too, when its next convenient. I have hopes we'll see more competitors from out of Europe in the coming decades, and that somebody'll defenestrate this American humpty-dumpty.

I think China's an interesting market, or well, maybe not now, but its one to watch. They've bled some talent to the US, but the government loosens it's bans every so often, and China's clearly dedicated to it's post-communist trajectory. Maybe in 20 years, after I'm long dead from lung cancer, they'll topple this generic fantasy with their own generic fantasy, which may not seem so generic to their newly acquired Western territories. I ramble...

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LiquidHurlant wrote:
Yes, ESO is canon.

Is it?

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Of course.

Its helpful never to rise to the conceit that we are even the interpreters of canon.

TLDovahkiin's picture
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Yes, it is.

"We like to think of previous Elder Scrolls games as fables; sort of 'fanciful portrayals' of legend. With Elder Scrolls Online we're giving you the real world of Tamriel."

This refers to playing together with other people on a whole continent, a living continent. You can explore a vast territory and the cities are actually full of inhabitants. It's a marketing thing. It's not ESO and other TES games hating eachother. What Voshu Ornim said is true.

I understand his words and any emotions. It's hard to explain calmly for the millionth time that nothing is wrong with that game. People mostly base their opinions on its early days...

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The Lusty Dovahkiin wrote:

"We like to think of previous Elder Scrolls games as fables; sort of 'fanciful portrayals' of legend. With Elder Scrolls Online we're giving you the real world of Tamriel."

This refers to playing together with other people on a whole continent, a living continent. You can explore a vast territory and the cities are actually full of inhabitants. It's a marketing thing. It's not ESO and other TES games hating eachother. What Voshu Ornim said is true.

I understand his words and any emotions. It's hard to explain calmly for the millionth time that nothing is wrong with that game. People mostly base their opinions on its early days...

Ok, now you're misremembering or conveniently trashing the context. Shlick's tweet was a direct follow up of support for ESO's earlier tweet that Cyrodiil as "endless jungle" was a "transcription error." Nothing at all to do with... whatever you're talking about. The transcript error excuse is also hilariously stupid, when for instance the PGE notes colovians sweating in the hot, humid climate. I suppose that and the like was just the scribe hemorrhaging political commentary, and its all far above our feeble minds to comprehend.

In other words, ESO said Cyrodiil was not only not a jungle, but that Cyrodiil as endless jungle was a textual mistake, meaning Cyrodiil was never at any point a jungle. This was no longer about jungle Cyrodiil magically giving way to a meadow divided by temperate forest - Cyrodiil was never a jungle to begin with.

You clearly aren't aware of the context, so how could you understand?

Also, here's Shlik's response to questions surrounding the laughable Ebonheart Pact:

Slavery is bad, so Argonians and Dunmer are best buds now. FEEL THE LOVE.

His reply to inquiries by the emotionally invested clientele of his shit game was in the least disrespectful, but it indirectly betrayed the shallowness of these mutineers, to anyone who was actually reading, whatever ridiculous contrivance ESO hid this behind.

There's also something here of an unwillingness to approach social issues, that anyone still interested in this series should consider, but that shouldn't surprise anyone. Let's get real, this isn't exclusive to Slik, the attitude courses through all Bethesda.

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The non-jungled Cyrodiil was also justified by a book Subtropical Cyrodiil. Oblivion un-jungled it first, anyway.

The three factions are well-explained in the game. They are not that solid, they are not easy alliances... The Ebonheart Pact was always my favourite because of all the political and cultural problems in it. The Dunmer and Argonians do not get along that well, it really is different in different places and sometimes you need to help them or the war will be lost. In hard times even the enemies become friends, though, and unite -history of our own world shows that. They have a common enemy, right? Two other pacts plus Mannimarco/Molag Bal is enough, I guess.

We see multiple points of view. Dunmer, who are happy to have new, scaly friends. Dunmer, who wish slavery was still there. Argonians, who still suffer. Argonians, who are happy because their work is still hard but they get paid now. Or, simply, at least they are free. Difficult alliance. Racism. Clash of cultures. Two races having to cooperate against powerful evil. I don't think there are many moments in history that are as interesting as abolition of slavery to witness on Tamriel. I don't know really why I fell in love with it, but I did. Argonians often form slums/districts of muddy huts on outskirts of main Dunmeri cities and that's just even... more lovely?

Nords probably just look at these two and wonder why they made a pact with those quarrelsome scorched elves and lizards. Then, they continue drinking their mead.

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What makes ESO an offender in their own right, is their game takes us to "REAL" Tamriel, in the era of the Cyrodiil described in the PGE, but instead of showing some appreciation for the opportunity they were given and the use of that creative license, what did they do? Steamroll, baby!

Its arrogance, and nothing good came from it. But yes, its canon.

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LiquidHurlant wrote:
But yes, its canon.

Is it, though?

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Raga wrote:

LiquidHurlant wrote:
But yes, its canon.

Is it, though?

Raga's picture
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LiquidHurlant wrote:

Raga wrote:

LiquidHurlant wrote:
But yes, its canon.

Is it, though?

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/images/folder543/600x600/15251543/old-man-shrug.jpg

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Yes?

Raga wrote:
Yes, I am an ass.
Ah!

PFFT THPPTPHT FRRRRrrrbbt

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LiquidHurlant wrote:

Ah!

PFFT THPPTPHT FRRRRrrrbbt

There was a disclaimer.

For real, though: how can you be sure?

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You ask for our sentiments. Have you gotten them? I think so.

You invite us to correct you, and you claim you don't mean to engender argument. So why is it, after being corrected, you want to argue?

I see in your op, you choose to self-identify as an ass. You must think being an ass entitles you to more than an ass deserves. Well, it doesn't. The Imperial Library has always been charitable to asses - to a point.

We gave you sentiments and facts, but your high standards of acceptability are too high for us on Earth. We gave your topic a good run, now return the favor and take our answers.

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Tailin Sero wrote:

Bethesda Softworks is the publisher. It has no hand in writing lore. Bethesda Game Studios is the developer and they have no hand in making ESO or Legends (or Fallout New Vega for that matter).

Seeing how ZOS, and Direwolf (and Obsidian, again for Fallout: NV) are not BGS they are considered 3rd party developers, even though they are/might be owned by the same parent company, Zenimax Media Inc..

So technically speaking, ESO is a ZOS game, Legends is a Direwolf game, and Fallout: NV is an Obsidian game. All of which are published by Bethesda Softworks, none of which are developed by BGS.

BGS do not own The Elder Scrolls IP, but BethSoft do. BGS are just the in-house developer, whose parent company is Bethesda Softworks, who own other developers besides. ZeniMax is just a shell company around Bethesda Softworks, which is to say the lawyers who hide and rep BethSoft's business. Zeni don't own anything.

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Oh, stop it. And the ass proclamation was due to my dismissal of Legends, though I seem to have proven it beyond that. Apologies.

Stating that ESO is definitively canon isn't a sentiment. You've said that it is canon only after saying that you can't comment on specifics because you don't play MMO's. Then you said that we shouldn't dare to interpret canon. Right before you said ESO is canon again.

I invited info on how Skyrim is as bastardized as Oblivion, as well as for statements by BGS or at least Hines that might validate ESO. None have been provided yet. Claims were made without sources. So far, you've vividly attributed to ESO's missteps while at the same time declaring that it is canon. To say that you feel it is canon would be fine, another datum. I've noted that facts beyond "BGS does it too" aren't coming and am taking that into account. If I want to explore it with you, it doesn't have to be a pissfight. Obviously, I was being cheeky in my responses to you when I should have been more explicit, so again, I apologize.

But I'm down to call it a thread.

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You asked for correction, and you were corrected. :) My feelz about ESO, my reactions to the arrogance of Schit, or what of his turd child's underwhelming lore I've cognized, were a response to your request for sentiments.

You can start your very own journey for evidence, by scrolling to the bottom of this web page. Who does the banner say owns The Elder Scrolls? That wasn't typed in ignorance. You'll probably want more, so I encourage a few googles to build that new frame of reference. If you don't see what I'm driving at, its this: BGS do not own TES.

No one in BGS own the IP, so they don't own the lore either. Call it codex, canon, official, The Imperial Decretals, what-have-you the corpus is Bethesda Softworks' to license out, or share among the sister-studios. In any event, what happens to that IP, which the lore is a fragment of, happens to be "official." Which should be the only evidence you need to see that ESO is canon. Its official, therefore its canon.

Curious, do you have sources ESO was developed without cooperative involvement with BGS? I want proof, because my wee lil skepticism is tingling. :P

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I never said BGS didn't cooperate, I said I didn't know and couldn't find confirmation on my own. Anyway, you have put things into perspective (in an albeit demystifying way.) I still have feelings about Zenimax shopping out TES to other studios, but maybe something exceptional will come of it someday. I still have to wonder what BGS thinks of it all.

:(

Thank you for the laughs, btw

LiquidHurlant wrote:
Schlick, Schit, etc

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They have 7 projects going on, only two confirmed, so they're thinking about those.

Schrek had crap all for ideas, his free-wheeling "gotta change the world" like a cartoon messiah made me sick. It's around the beginning of when I didn't care anymore, and when I tuned out Kirkbride.