tegger |
Creepy ShadowLady |
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Reged: 09/11/02 |
Posts: 15572 |
Loc: United States | |
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Welcome to
this sanctuary. Hogithum Hall has been sealed and will open no
more. Here you may rest and recover from this exceedingly trying
day, and reflect upon all the astounding events that we all
witnessed.
For my part, I am currently too stunned to speak.
I'll have to think on these things a while.
(OOC: Thanks
to each of you who participated!)
Edit: For those who missed it, you can start at the beginning and follow the entire saga
from there.
-------------------- Everyone always
overgeneralizes everything entirely too much. ~TSL )O(
Edited by
tegger (03/23/04 10:24 AM)
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B |
Disciple |
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Reged: 11/10/01 |
Posts: 1874 |
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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*With Vehk
gone, B's weeping has stopped. He stands up and shakes his
head.*
Now, I have seen everything. Well played, to all
involved! Well played!
-------------------- ~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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Nael |
Curate |
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Reged: 05/15/02 |
Posts: 692 |
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When the Egg
breaks you will know what Bird laid it. That is all.
*walks
out of the Hall... needless to say, laughing quite madly.*
-------------------- Best puns in town!
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Archeopterix |
Protochicken |
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Reged: 04/14/01 |
Posts: 10633 |
Loc: the last place you'd look
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*feels very
faint and before looking, puts a hand down to catch herself on a
nearby table* *her hand slides on a small pile of intestines and she
crashes to the floor*
-------------------- Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil? Morrowind
Avatars Chatroom!
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* The crystal
glows even brighter*
* He looks around and twists a ring on
his now clawed hand*
*Hissing* "Oh NO, there is still THE
DRAGON to face*
* The room shifts and a moment is an
eternity*
*Disapears*
*Where he stood there is a
crystal with a shape of a dragon inside*
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Deh'kohn
Rotherane shakes his head, trying to sort out the events. "Does
someone have a record of the events that happened before I arrived,
that I might study them?"
-------------------- "The past is but the beginning of a beginning, and
all that is and has been is but the twilight of the dawn."
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MK |
Novice |
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Reged: 03/22/04 |
Posts: 10 |
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Thanks so much
for playing along and pretty much making Elder Scrolls fans the
coolest, smartest, canniest CRPG fans anywhere.
You guys
rock.
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tegger |
Creepy ShadowLady |
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Reged: 09/11/02 |
Posts: 15572 |
Loc: United States | |
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And thank
you, too.
-------------------- Everyone always
overgeneralizes everything entirely too much. ~TSL )O(
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Attrebus |
Hitman |
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Reged: 03/04/04 |
Posts: 275 |
Loc: South Australia | |
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You rock Mr
Kirkbride! Don't think ill of me for trying to stop proceedings. My
conscience would not be clear if I did
not.
Bravo!
-Attrebus
-------------------- Remember the 4th of First Seed -
Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and
Truth. And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered
always.
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Freddo |
Patriarch |
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Reged: 05/17/01 |
Posts: 10027 |
Loc: Småland, Sweden | |
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Thanks for a
very enjoyable lurking experience!
-------------------- Hall of Torque
Remember the fishysticks!
Morrowind Chat
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Nigedo |
Diviner |
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Reged: 05/29/03 |
Posts: 2586 |
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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Cheers
Michael, and all. Thanks for being the best CRPG developers and fan
boys and girls the world over.
-------------------- Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Solin |
Initiate |
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Reged: 09/04/03 |
Posts: 92 |
Loc: Overseeing the growth of Tel Kaerth at
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I must say,
that was great even though I lurked for the most part.
-------------------- "There’s man all over for you,
blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in
Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of
Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
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Nazz |
Disciple |
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Reged: 02/21/02 |
Posts: 1399 |
Loc: Almalexia | |
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As selfish as
ever, and no big surprise, Vehk has left us for good.
I must
say on this night my red eyes glow with the satisfaction that Azura
finaly got what it deserved.
EDIT: No, thank you MK, that
was truly a treat for all involved.
-------------------- The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and
Dusk Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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LDones |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/10/02 |
Posts: 1040 |
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MK: I wasn't
sure if it was you. I'm very glad it was.
Fun.
-------------------- -LDones http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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B |
Disciple |
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Reged: 11/10/01 |
Posts: 1874 |
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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Quote:
Thanks so much for playing along and pretty much making Elder
Scrolls fans the coolest, smartest, canniest CRPG fans
anywhere.
You guys rock.
Same to you, MK. Good luck in all
that you do.
-------------------- ~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
Post Extras: |
Yeah |
Curate |
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Reged: 10/17/02 |
Posts: 601 |
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Thanks for
your work on making the games so excellent that the coolest,
smartest, canniest CRPG fans all like it.
But, will any of
this stuff show up in the next game (if you're allowed to tell us))?
-------------------- Professor: The only thing I don't
like about those governments is that they want to give all of our
taxes away to the less-fortunate.
Fry: Yeah! The
less-fortunate get all the breaks!
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Varana |
Adept |
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Reged: 11/19/02 |
Posts: 288 |
Loc: Germany | |
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I
concur. Though only lurking, this was a remarkable
experience. Thanks to all those participating.
-------------------- Rigid, unbending: Law's dominion
eternal - Order triumphant!
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Well done!
Who'll let me buy them a drink? Nordic mead, fresh from Solstheim!
Post Extras: |
tegger |
Creepy ShadowLady |
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Reged: 09/11/02 |
Posts: 15572 |
Loc: United States | |
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Quote:
Well done! Who'll let me buy them a drink? Nordic mead, fresh
from Solstheim!
I'll gladly volunteer for that
one.
-------------------- Everyone always
overgeneralizes everything entirely too much. ~TSL )O(
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Cyaneyes |
Novice |
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Reged: 10/29/03 |
Posts: 12 |
Loc: PA | |
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If it truly be
Vehk's last word on this matter so much the better.
The Thief
asks we bear him no ill will for his use? Too long did I attend this
Trial in patient silence to be silent now.
I name this
Tribunal sycophantic and craven. Spectators of the Hall assumed, in
apparently foolishness, that Azura was summoned in good faith to
give testimony as to Vehk's crimes, not to be the victim of a cruel
metaphysical rape at the hands of an egotistical
demigod.
Instead when Vehk makes brutish display of his
stolen godhood, Mastery and Mercy stare and grin at the display, as
starry-eyed, awed children.
Stri'ker died in Azura's name? He
died in an attempt to discover the truth as to Vehk's guilt or
innocence. Now, thanks to the Thief's flippancy, his death is in
vain.
*Leaves the Hall drawing his Ebony
Broadsword
*You hear him rending the very earth and rocks in
his frustration.
OOC: ok, it was seriously cool.. but.. what?
that's it?
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Attrebus |
Hitman |
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Reged: 03/04/04 |
Posts: 275 |
Loc: South Australia | |
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Yeah, I'll
have two.... being attacked by scribs and weaping blood really takes
it out of you!
-------------------- Remember the 4th of First Seed -
Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and
Truth. And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered
always.
Post Extras: |
Archeopterix |
Protochicken |
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Reged: 04/14/01 |
Posts: 10633 |
Loc: the last place you'd look
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*comes to,
to find her hands clean of blood* *wonders which parts of it were a
dream, and which parts were a nightmare*
Thanks
for this
-------------------- Cthulhu for President. Why vote for
a lesser evil? Morrowind
Avatars Chatroom!
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Nael |
Curate |
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Reged: 05/15/02 |
Posts: 692 |
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I could never
convey my thanks adequately. Let this be a lesson to those who have
been begging for a multiplayer TES4!
And
thank you as well for allowing me to cause so much *official* chaos
-------------------- Best puns in town!
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Not quite what
I expected but lest I forget...I must say, Thank you MK for such a
treat.
-------------------- Who I am does not matter for
I am naught but the essence of what has gone and come as well as the
void that protrudes from the depths of one's being.
Post Extras: |
Yeah |
Curate |
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Reged: 10/17/02 |
Posts: 601 |
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Was his death
in vain? Some long-due revenge was had, and Striker helped it along.
-------------------- Professor: The only thing I don't
like about those governments is that they want to give all of our
taxes away to the less-fortunate.
Fry: Yeah! The
less-fortunate get all the breaks!
Post
Extras: |
B |
Disciple |
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Reged: 11/10/01 |
Posts: 1874 |
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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Yeah, I'll
take a couple of drinks, too. All that crying tires you out. I have
to replace some fluids like Stri...urr...I mean Attrebus.
-------------------- ~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
Post Extras: |
LDones |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/10/02 |
Posts: 1040 |
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Quote:
ok, it was seriously cool.. but.. what? that's it?
I kind of expected it all to
culminate in an Announcement from Bethesda of some sort, but it was
a really great diversion nonetheless.
Kirkbride's work in ES
lore is really staggeringly brilliant - I don't know how much actual
research into real-world magical systems he's done, but it's all
there, and God Bless him and Bethesda for keeping so many
imagination-fires stoked.
I have a few questions myself
about what actually happened, but I'm gonna let 'em gestate a bit.
Very rewarding.
-------------------- -LDones http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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Attrebus |
Hitman |
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Reged: 03/04/04 |
Posts: 275 |
Loc: South Australia | |
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My master,
Stri'Ker, died to discover the truth. I think the events shown this
day revealed to true colours of Vehk!
-------------------- Remember the 4th of First Seed -
Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and
Truth. And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered
always.
Post Extras: |
Vireyar |
Adept |
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Reged: 07/08/03 |
Posts: 217 |
Loc: Trying really very hard to drain a bit of
moisture from Aleft | |
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You mean
previous threads? There are these three:
The Judgment of Vivec Hogithum Preparations Hogithum Hall II
And Master D'Onus (who has
all my sympathy for the effort he put into his page) archived a list
of questions etc. for Azura, which has since been replaced by Vehk's confession.
Well-done to all
involved! Completely unexpected ending that was obviously well
thought-out. As for mead, please. Now I wonder: how long before
someone turns these events into a plugin?
-------------------- Greater Dwemer Ruins - more rusted cogs, homocidal
Animunculi and neon lights than you can shake a stick at. GDR Aleft - You can't expect it to not be flooded,
really.
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Peace,
Attrebus. Did we not learn the truth? Vehk is guilty beyond
question, a thief in bone and blood, and a murderer as well. And
far, far beyond our ability to catch and punish. Which, thank the
heavens, is not a duty I signed on for!
Post Extras: |
LDones |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/10/02 |
Posts: 1040 |
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Quote:
Now I wonder: how long before someone turns these events into
a plugin?
Ha. I was thinking about it -
especially given all the record-keeping I did.
For any still
interested, the Trial Record is still available @ http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles/HogithumHall/trialrecord.htm.
I thought it appropriate, story-wise, to change the index afterward.
-------------------- -LDones http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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Nigedo |
Diviner |
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Reged: 05/29/03 |
Posts: 2586 |
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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Quote:
I think the events shown this day revealed to true colours of
Vehk!
True. He has shown himself Dunmeri
and discharged his vengeance and his last duty as Vehk and Vehk,
with deceit and secret murder according to the codes of Mephala his
fore-image.
Who could surpass even the sphere of that Daedra
Prince but sweet Vehk, now mythic Thief?
-------------------- Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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CarlCX |
Novice |
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Reged: 08/07/03 |
Posts: 41 |
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I watched and
wept from the background. I weep for Stri'Ker and I weep for Azura,
and I weep for all that was before that we have only today
discovered.
But now, the weeping is done. Death, tragedy and
deception is finished; now, let us drink to the future and enjoy all
that is yet to be.
And let us enjoy being mortal enough to
know yet know what it is.
ooc: God bless all of you people,
devs and fans alike. You astound me.
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I must say
though to put this aside once and for all that my suspicions proved
true almost to their word.
The consequences of the showing of Vehk's true persona and
the banishment of the Daedra Lord Azura have yet to be seen.
-------------------- Who I am does not matter for I am
naught but the essence of what has gone and come as well as the void
that protrudes from the depths of one's being.
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Nigedo |
Diviner |
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Reged: 05/29/03 |
Posts: 2586 |
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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And raise a
goblet for Ainoryl, who in devotion to his master gave his own life
too.
-------------------- Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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mafafu |
Diviner |
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Reged: 06/18/03 |
Posts: 2263 |
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How. About.
That.
What fun.
May
you all live in interesting times.
-------------------- Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec If you're not confused, you're not
paying attention. - Tom Peters
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TSBasilisk |
Diviner |
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Reged: 06/09/03 |
Posts: 2858 |
Loc: Durango, CO | |
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:whistles: I
never expected THAT! I would have just messed it up if I had been
here. Thankfully, my spell dropped me in a dungeon ruled by a Horned
Reaper, so I had to escape from it before returning.
As
to the punishing of Vivec: We have no say in this matter anymore. He
has proven that, although his powers are diminished, we have not the
strength to give him justice. For his crimes, death will be the
absolution, and that death will come, because with the breaking of
Kagrenac's enchantments, Vivec has allowed himself to be doomed.
Akatosh will claim him once he has aged to the right time.
-------------------- Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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All Hail
Ainoryl!
*drains the cup at one draught
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All hail
Stri'Ker!
*drains another cup
Post
Extras: |
Attrebus |
Hitman |
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Reged: 03/04/04 |
Posts: 275 |
Loc: South Australia | |
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Indeed, to
Ainoryl and Stri'Ker!
-------------------- Remember the
4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to
Scholarly Pursuits and Truth. And Stri'Ker, who died for these -
May he be remembered always.
Post Extras:
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LDones |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/10/02 |
Posts: 1040 |
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Quote:
May you all live in interesting times.
I was thinking that very thing
throughout the Trial.
Still OOC. I have to give my character
a rest for now. Having your shadow torn off by a Dwemer Tonal
Chainsaw and then used as a weapon to help murder a god can be a bit
on the taxing side.
Until then, let's just say Master D'Onus
has made an ascension of sorts into a crazier world. His researches
are the better for it.
-------------------- -LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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Susano |
Adept |
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Reged: 04/22/03 |
Posts: 207 |
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That.,..
was... *speechless*... a truely wonderful final!
I dont know
if I should hate or love Lord Vehk. What he did, was rightful, but
his mention of the empire disturbed me. The methods how he did this
I couldnt care less for, but the intentions... wlel in the end I
must say I cheered and still cheer fo what he did.
Really,
reading this, I must say Nazz' comment during teh fight summarised
best what I thought, too, lol. The native gods (ALMSIVI, god of
worms) from Munuds have won against a god from oblivion....
-------------------- Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Master
Basilisk, I wouldn't write Vehk off just yet. He's a tricksy fellow
and he knows his own walk. What makes you think he can't steal again
what he stole the first time?
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Susano |
Adept |
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Reged: 04/22/03 |
Posts: 207 |
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What happens
to Ayem/Almalexia and Vehk/Vivec now? And even mroe intesrtingly,
Azura? And what does the public experience? Will they find out about
the dissapperance, so to say, of Azura?
-------------------- Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Past
experience would indicate you can go and tell everyone about Azura,
but no one will believe you!
Really
remains to be seen. Almalexia's dead, though, and Vehk seems to have
left for other climes.
Post Extras: |
Archeopterix |
Protochicken |
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Reged: 04/14/01 |
Posts: 10633 |
Loc: the last place you'd look
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Quote:
Past experience would indicate you can go and tell everyone
about Azura, but no one will believe you!
Really
remains to be seen. Almalexia's dead, though, and Vehk seems to
have left for other climes.
Hehehe Allie Naughty
Vehk though
-------------------- Cthulhu for President. Why vote for
a lesser evil? Morrowind
Avatars Chatroom!
Post Extras: |
selunatic2397 |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 10/21/03 |
Posts: 187 |
Loc: Somewhere in Washington State
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I waited over
21 days for...THAT? Azura sounded like a braindead zombie I
haven't played the earlier games, all i know i get from Morrowind,
so none of this made any sense at all to me. If vivec is mortal now
and Azura is at full power, she should be able to waste an entire
city...a poet shouldn't stand a chance. Going by game stats for
vivec he isn't beyond anyone power to slay...I gotta back a previous
poster whose name i forgot, ya'll just stood there in starry wonder
as you let him butcher the patron of the nevarine...BAH i waited so
long for THAT???
-------------------- Does anyone here
know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
Post Extras: |
selunatic2397 |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 10/21/03 |
Posts: 187 |
Loc: Somewhere in Washington State
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sorry double
post..my bad
-------------------- Does anyone here know why my swiss
army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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WormGod |
Lord of the Dance |
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Reged: 05/24/00 |
Posts: 1607 |
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Fun stuff.
Glad everyone was a good sport about participation.
Who
knows what might pop up next. Just gotta keep your eyes open, I
guess.
Till then, the God of Worms must be put back up on the
shelf, with His ever watchful eye open.
-------------------- gary noonan animator guy
bethesda softworks "too weird to live, too rare to die...."
Post Extras: |
tegger |
Creepy ShadowLady |
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Reged: 09/11/02 |
Posts: 15572 |
Loc: United States | |
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Quote:
Till then, the God of Worms must be put back up on the shelf,
with His ever watchful eye open.
Awww, I have to admit... I was
beginning to like the ol' fella.
-------------------- Everyone always
overgeneralizes everything entirely too much. ~TSL )O(
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CarlCX |
Novice |
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Reged: 08/07/03 |
Posts: 41 |
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There were
extenuating circumstances, to say the least. But I do believe we can
judge gods. I am not certain of my own personal feelings on what has
happened: it will take time to gather them and mend the wounds of
the past days.
But regardless, Azura will be back, no? Even
by the power of CHIM, Daedra are protean and thusly beyond being
unmade, I believe...
Post Extras: |
selunatic2397 |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 10/21/03 |
Posts: 187 |
Loc: Somewhere in Washington State
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Sounds logical
-------------------- Does anyone here know why my swiss
army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
Post Extras: |
Iudas |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1103 |
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The whole
thing was superb. Lurking throught all of it and loving every
moment. You folks did great work. Thank you.
Post Extras: |
MutantPenguin |
Diviner |
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Reged: 02/08/03 |
Posts: 4178 |
Loc: England, so don't laugh at me when I talk
funny | |
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Well done
everyone... You certainly shocked me, and I have lots of questions
about the stuff I don't understand (most of it )
but I'll just leave them for now. Well done to all who took part
-------------------- Morrowind Chat
<Umi> How is my butt weird? >:| *Pacle gives AMP a plaque* - YAY PLAQUE FUZZY YAY
KIWI!!!
The Darkened
Shrine
Post Extras: |
Susano |
Adept |
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Reged: 04/22/03 |
Posts: 207 |
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Ah, but I
assume some people wil notice a certain alck of azura-ness next
hogithium day, heh.
-------------------- Serving
honourably in House Redoran
Post Extras:
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Nael |
Curate |
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Reged: 05/15/02 |
Posts: 692 |
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One thing I
was not to clear about in the proceedings was Vivec's
quote:
Quote:
Perhaps it's how my brother felt, folding into himself like a
prism until your darts were thrown, nymic sel
sulimet elhnodidan, thought thinking thought.
Is this to suggest that Azura
was directly/indirectly responsible for the passing of Sotha Sil? Or
am I completely off the mark and he said something completely
different than that?
And another thing. Was the Spirit from
the Star some random follower of Clavicus Vile or was it Almalexia?
I thought for sure V told B in Hall 2 that he was wrong in thinking
that whoever was contained within was either S or A. But then again,
V is known to not always be so... forthcoming
-------------------- Best puns in town!
Post Extras: |
Nazz |
Disciple |
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Reged: 02/21/02 |
Posts: 1399 |
Loc: Almalexia | |
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I got that
impression as well Nael. I also thought Vivec was implying that
Azura was responsible for Almalexia's madness.
About the
spirit, I think it was just some sevent of Viles whom wished to join
her master in Oblivion but Azura wouldn't let her. Perhaps we will
learn more about this spirit in the future, though probably not.
-------------------- The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and
Dusk Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
Post
Extras: |
selunatic2397 |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 10/21/03 |
Posts: 187 |
Loc: Somewhere in Washington State
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The more I
think about this story thread the more I get reminded about a bad
game of dungeons and dragons where the dm changes the rules about
halfway through because he can. The first part made sense according
to what I know from the imperial library and my copy of
morrowind...then it all changes to confusion. Azura sounded like a
brainddead zombie rendition of RainMan and none of my friends [who
game and mod more than I'll ever do] had any idea of what I was
talking about. the pre-existing soul in Azura's Star that I think is
implied that she stuck in there has me going "Huh" ? Boy am I glad
that Morrowind is only a single player game and this was just a
roleplaying thread because it left me confused, annoyed, and sorry
that I waited over 21 days for what seemed to be the game designers
pulling what my first dm used to do. Play fair guys, no more hidden
truths...it gets real annoying
-------------------- Does anyone here know why my swiss
army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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Nael |
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Mystery is one
of the many spices of life and our friends at Bethsoft know this
well .
There are some things we are meant to know and other things that
would drive the uninitiated to madness. The dealings of Gods are one
of those things that would tax the mortal mind and is not meant for
your consumption.
Just be happy Bethsoft cares about us
enough to have given us this small taste. What happened this
Hogithum was pretty substantial if you think about it. It sounds the
first shot in a battle that will involve every rock and tree, and
living beings and the denizens of Oblivion alike on Tamriel.
Patience friend, patience .
-------------------- Best puns in town!
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Karnath |
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Well, that
was something ... I thought this trial to be a mere
masquerade, but I was nowhere near guessing how it would actually
end. Lord Vivec was resplendent in every aspect : a well-learned
child of the teachings of Veloth and the Codes of Mephala, as Nigedo
wisely pointed out - and a child who managed to murder his father,
his master and himself as it is said all should do in order to walk
the right way. Many mysteries were evoked during the grand climax of
this night of Hogithum (maybe the last one), and there's still much
to ponder - especially about the "crimes" of Vehk and Azura ...
But most importantly, and I am surprised almost no one
mentionned this before, Vivec performed CHIM right before our eyes !
Just as he had announced during the "trial", he showed us the Tower
once again, providing us with something unique in that field of
study, that is, direct visual experience. For a fraction of
eternity, analogies became real again, and we saw a mere spear
become Muatra and stuff the mouth of a Lord of Oblivion (or perhaps
the other way around) - now we know without possible doubt of the
reality of the path of CHIM, one that can bring a mortal, deprived
of the power of the Heart of Lorkhan if not of what it had brought
to him, to surpass a Daedra Prince in Hir own Sphere, and to defeat
another by forcing upon Her the lock She had escaped at the time of
the Compromise. Two shadows of darkness and blood, two lovers of
old cursing their beloved ones, but only one Tower - the Thief has
won, and, as such, has all my renewed respect. Although I will never
get to know whether he really was a formidably egotistical crazed
demigod, the most altruist prophet and best actor ever, or perhaps
some strange mix of both ...
Anyway ...
All hail the
braves who died for what they thought or knew to be right !
And, naturally, hail to the Thief !
-------------------- Fellow of The Theoretical
Whirling School of Vivec
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Hail to the
Thief!
I've been telling you guys for months that Vivec's a
wicked, black-hearted creature, but did any of you listen?
Allie was never sure what he was up to, but she was certain
he was up to something. At first she thought it was an elaborate
suicide by cop, by way of forcing the witnesses to murder their
parents/gods and move to the next level, but then she started
wondering. And when he came to the summoning in armor... whatcha
planning on fighting, Vehk?
For what it's worth, selunatic,
the setup was there... some folks on the thread came dangerously
close to guessing what was going to happen.
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B |
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Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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I certainly
had my suspicions prior to the Summoning, but I chose to give Vehk
and Ainoryl a little "benefit of the doubt." I now see that I waited
too long to react. Eventually, when I was in contact with Attrebus,
we decided to react. Unfortunately, Vehk was too much for us to
handle.
OOC: I didn’t want to ruin the role-playing. Even
though I’m a little disappointed in not hearing the answers to the
questions, I am pleased with Vehk’s performance. After all, it was
his show. Once again, nice work, MK!
-------------------- ~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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selunatic2397 |
Acolyte |
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Loc: Somewhere in Washington State
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I listened to
your opinion on vivec
Personally after i found out that he killed Nerevar, I have never
trusted him. Since everyones character in Morrowind is supposed to
be the reincarnation of Nerevar I decided that in the interest of
roleplaying, I would hold the mother of all grudges
against him and the entire tribunal.
*goes off planning to
soultrap vivec and bind him into the first chamberpot he can
find....bwa ha ha ha ha...cough...choke*
-------------------- Does anyone here know why my swiss
army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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Quote:
The more I think about this story thread the more I get
reminded about a bad game of dungeons and dragons where the dm
changes the rules about halfway through because he can. The first
part made sense according to what I know from the imperial library
and my copy of morrowind...then it all changes to confusion. Azura
sounded like a brainddead zombie rendition of RainMan and none of
my friends [who game and mod more than I'll ever do] had any idea
of what I was talking about. the pre-existing soul in Azura's Star
that I think is implied that she stuck in there has me going "Huh"
? Boy am I glad that Morrowind is only a single player game and
this was just a roleplaying thread because it left me confused,
annoyed, and sorry that I waited over 21 days for what seemed to
be the game designers pulling what my first dm used to do. Play
fair guys, no more hidden truths...it gets real annoying
Your right it wasn't very open
role-playing at all. It was more like a multi-DM driven event and
with a singular purpose. When My character challenged the authority
of the appointed Tribunal I got a pretty nasty pm from Vehk.
[deleted- it is in very poor taste to paste in
private messages from people anywhere public without their
permission -Archie]
I'm sorry personally, given the same
situation my Lawful Character probably would have objected in any
court in any nation in any Fantasy Land where he sees the Judges
having close relationships with the accused. It wasn't just Allie
that was the main reason for my character challenging the authority,
it was many circus events that lead up to that. Also, note that my
character believe none of the Tribunals objected to anything Vehk
wanted in the court which is another good reason.
If I was
playing a more chaotic character I probably would have enjoyed what
was going on throughout the entire event. So I appologize for
pissing anyone off OOC, this was not my intention.
-------------------- Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu -
screen shots Dwemer Links Prof. of Academy for
Dwemer Studies Member of Team Pheonix
Edited
by Archeopterix (03/23/04 07:38 AM)
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selunatic2397 |
Acolyte |
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Loc: Somewhere in Washington State
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Thanks
Aquiantus for sharing your pm and clearing up some of the smoke and
shadows. It did look like vehk was running the show, but I didn't
realize to what extent. During the final moments when the few tried
to stop the assault on Azura vehk responded like my first dm did and
slapped them down. I am sorry you got expelled, but proud that you
stood up for what your character believed in. You did a darn fine
job of roleplaying and I award you with not one, but three trophies
-------------------- Does anyone here know why my swiss
army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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Nakanja |
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*waves*
Heya, that was very neat. Even for those of us that weren't
a part of it it was a rather interesting read. I can't say I really
feel sorry for Azura though, for.. um, whatever happened. She
probably deserved it.
(And if this thread was supposed to be still part of the
story and I'm messing it up, please feel free to hit me with
something for being dense like ebony)
-------------------- The never was a fish.
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mafafu |
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Nah, the
story's over. There's still a bit of roleplaying going on, but for
the most part the comments are OOC and discussion about the story.
Even Vehk is OOC now (see page 1).
-------------------- Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec If you're not confused, you're not
paying attention. - Tom Peters
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Wow, great
thread(s). Lots of reading across the threads, and Vengence Long
Delayed was good. So Vivec agreed to a trial to have Azura summoned
to exact revenge on her.
In my game, I feel that I must
avenge my patron
-------------------- Suldrun, Breton
Wizard Mages Guild Arch-Mage, Great House Telvanni Archmagister
Imperial Cult Primate, Temple Patriarch Thieves Guild
Captain
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Susano |
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Azura most
definitly deserved it. EVERY Daedra Prince would, IMO....
-------------------- Serving honourably in House Redoran
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selunatic2397 |
Acolyte |
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Posts: 187 |
Loc: Somewhere in Washington State
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In your
opinion...but not in mine.
-------------------- Does
anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical
spatula?
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MutantPenguin |
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Loc: England, so don't laugh at me when I talk
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Selunatic,
this is just proof that even gods have emotions. Vehk got revenge,
whether Azura deserved it or not doesn't matter. Vehk thought she
did.
And yes, it was run by the devs, but this was more of a
play than roleplaying.
-------------------- Morrowind Chat
<Umi> How is my butt weird? >:| *Pacle gives AMP a plaque* - YAY PLAQUE FUZZY YAY
KIWI!!!
The Darkened
Shrine
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CarlCX |
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I'm curious,
Susano: what makes you say that?
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Susano |
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If you ask me,
the various daedra have meddled in mortal affairs for far too long.
They ra eno gods, they simply have more power, and yet they are
worshipped. I think thats both just wrong.
-------------------- Serving honourably in House Redoran
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CarlCX |
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One could
argue that being a being of otherworldly power sufficient enough to
meddle in mortal affairs (in addition to the immortal,
extradimensional, never-dying thing) MAKES one a god. But,
regardless, I do have to say:
If you're condemning the Daedra
for using their powers to meddle in the affairs of mortals--how can
you support Vivec, who has done the exact same thing?
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Damar Stiehl |
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Loc: Daedra Manor, West Gash
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-----IN
CHARACTER----- An unfortunate and sad ending to the tale,
indeed.
Instead of truth and resolution, all we once again
witness is a twisted game between beings so alien that neither of
them should foul Mundus with their presence in the first
place.
Are we nothing but pawns and amusement for the
"inconstant spirits" of Oblivion? Or are we so desperate to be
observed that we must invent our own gods?
Perhaps the answer
had been with the Dwemer all along. The only way for the mortals to
truly prosper is to reject the concept of worship altogether. Not to
substitute one power to cower before with another, but to follow
reason and logic, and forge our own path.
My faith, whatever
was left of it, has been shattered in Hogithurm Hall. To any being
beyond Mundus seeking recognition as a god I say: Damar Stiehl, the
Elite Battlemage, henceforth follows none.
--------OUT OF
CHARACTER-------------
Marvelously played, everyone. I only
wish I was more of an Elder Scrolls scholar...
-------------------- I will burn you to ASHES!!
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Susano |
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Ah, but thats
the difference. Vivec is a NATIVE god, once (or rather, in the
replaced timeline) Dunmer himself. He is no foreign entity, at least
not entirely.
-------------------- Serving honourably in
House Redoran
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CarlCX |
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Shouldn't that
make his crimes all the worse, though?
See, this is why,
after a lot of contemplation, I'm still judging against Vivec (and
doing a writeup of this). The Daedra were formed. They were created
by the blood of Padomay. Their nature was set from the moment they
were 'born': good, evil, observer, activist, God of War, etc.
Mehrunes Dagon was born as Mehrunes Dagon; as far as my research can
tell, his motives and spheres of influence were pre-set.
Vehk had a choice.
He was not constrained by the
pre-set limitations of the Aedra or Daedra, or restricted to a
particular sphere of influence. He was a free god. He could have
taken any route with it, could have done all sorts of noble things.
I've always stood by a fact of the universe: The Aedra have
the staggering mysticism, the Daedra have the tangible influence,
and all in all, the mortals of Mundus are more powerful than either
combined, because they have the one thing neither faction can lay
claim to: Potential. The Aedra and Daedra do not ascend or descend,
do not switch spheres. They act within their boundaries. Mortals
have no such bindings: we have free will. The will to do right or
wrong, to achieve or falter.
Vehk was a living example of
this, and unfortunately also an example of its fallacy. Vehk the
mortal had the free decision in terms of his path, and he chose to
do wrong. He murdered Nerevar, he stole the godhood, and even then
he became a god without the spherical limitations of his peers--and
even with that, he retained his black heart. We saw the living
example of it Hogithum Hall.
Azura did not choose her path
and existence. She chose her actions, yes--but her actions were, at
least to some degree, dictated by the nature of her state of
existence.
Vivec had no pre-set nature--and thus, had no
such excuse.
Do you truly prefer the devil of choice over
the devil of circumstance?
[edit: typos]
Edited by CarlCX (03/23/04 11:24 PM)
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In
Character:
Well, I suppose that does it, for me as well in
fact. I am leaving this place now, for my duty is complete. Vehk has
been shown as who he is, and the mouth of Azura has been "stuffed
with birds". I pray continuously for the Dunmer people, for now they
have been very much stripped of their gods. Azura has been cursed by
her people, and has been sent back to Oblivion with the greatest
humiliation any Daedra Lord can receive.
Vehk is hopeless. He
demonstrates what I've said a thousand times over, all of his
"Tower" ramble only was accomplished off the backs of his fellow
mortals (yes I say it again, fellow mortals). Yet he lives,
yet he is still mad, yet he is still doing damage to himself and
everyone else. He is so torn and twisted he has become no better
than a Daedra.
Speaking of which, on that note I will say
lastly and only this: Behold what the Daedra represent and delight
in. If such is what they do for pleasure, how can they be
trusted?
Yet there is hope as opposed to what Master Stiehl
would say, the Dwemer fell because they weren't enough. They
couldn't take on the responsibilities of the power they so rashly
seized. No mortal can. Do not be so quick to focus on the wiles of
such as the Daedra that you distrust someone trustworthy when you
see them. As the ordinators of Vivec would say, "Trust in gods and
justice." The heart's desire is a trustworthy higher being. Do not
deny yourself that in a lustful fit that leads to nothing but
Oblivion (which is where it came from).
I leave you all with
these thoughts. May they lead you to something beyond what is
possible on your own. Blessings of the One in Eight, blessed above
all, be with you. One Anu, one Padomay. Mundus is the test, Anu is
hope. The Endeavor is yet the trap. Trust in Him, and be
content.
*speaks a few words, and vanishes
-------------------- Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
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Susano |
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You think in
terms of morale, and ethics. But who made up this ethic? The gods -
so the Daedra and Aedra? If you then judged them by this, you would
be trapped in a case of circular logic. Maybe it is becasue I am
Dunmer <OOC: speaking IC, that is, heh>, and because the
typical stereotpyes are true, but I think in terms of use and profit
to the world. Oh yes, the Daedra are born of Padomay, and thus
just happen to HAVE the changing part of the universe - but that
does not amke the situation better for mundus. Nonetheless Mundus
shoudl shield itself against Daedric manipulations. Besides,
every mortal, too, has a personality. If you excuse Daedra Princes
by their "pre-set nature", I must claim this pre-set nature for
mortals, too - as said, we call this personality. And I still
mantain that ALMSIVI has done more good than bad, by far. That they
had free choice makes them even more likeable, in my opinion. But
that is not even my point. My point is that native gods like ALMSIVI
are mundus' weapon and shield against daedric, that is, foreign,
manipulation. It does not matter how justified the Daedra are in
manipulating us - it harms us, thus we need to act against it,
evrybody according to his or her abilities. And of course, a god has
huge abilities compared to us mortals!
-------------------- Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Karnath |
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Posts: 43 |
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Good laugh
there. How can a citizen of an Empire founded by trahison against a
Moon, half-death of the Sun, lies to all men and usurpation of the
power of the Anumidium ever try and judge Vehk for what he has done
?
By the way, before even trying to inflict charges on a
Dunmeri god, you should take in consideration the particular ethics
of the Dunmeri people : Dunmer have always known of the darker side
of Vehk as inherent to his personality and accepted it as part of
his being - he calls himself the Thief and his Anticipation is
Sex/Murder - this is no big news to find out he actually has
a dark side. He stole, he murdered (name one single hero who never
did, anyway) and taught us all a valuable lesson doing so - as for
stealing Godhood, more people than you might think (in fact, a whole
half of a very old schism between Man and Mer) view it as the actual
purpose of Mundus, although the means used by Vehk to perform this
weren't the most glorious ones.
-------------------- Fellow of The Theoretical
Whirling School of Vivec
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CarlCX |
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I don't
understand the purpose behind trying to use the opinions of a race,
school, religion or political faction to justify or deride an
opinion, nor do I understand attempting to not make an ethical
judgment based on the fact that our existence was created by the
Aedra.
Are you all so centered on the forces both mortal and
immortal surrounding you that you're content to let them make up
your minds for you?
I am in the minority, I realize, and all
are by far entitled to their personal beliefs. Mine is simply that
ALL living beings, regardless of their stature, position or plane of
existence, should be held accountable for their misdeeds. The only
reason I have leniency on the Daedra and Aedra is that they did not
create the roles they serve--they were born TO serve them. It is
their mental, emotional and spiritual nature to act as they do. It
does not absolve them of responsibility for these misdeeds: it
simply earns them a degree of leeway.
Think of it as an
analogy: you may be against killing, but you would not stop an alit
from eating a guar; it is the natural order of things. However, if
one alit were to eat ALL the guar, it would have to be stopped and
dealt with accordingly. Such is similar to the Daedra. It is their
place to wield the powers of Oblivion, and in general they do so
without incident. When they do overstep their boundaries,
however--when Mehrunes Dagon attempts to exterminate a faction, when
(if you believe she did) Azura curses an entire race--there must be
intervention.
The reason I hold Vehk in contempt further than
any Daedra is that, as stated before, his were choices of free will.
He was not born into godhood, his hand was never forced by another.
The Daedra, be it by Anticipation or by birthright or simple twist
of fate, gravitate naturally toward a greater good or a greater
evil. Their actions are their responsibilities; their motives are
not. Vehk crafted both for himself. He knew the difference between
good and bad, else he would not have attempted to deceive anyone as
to the nature of his crimes.
His Anticipation is no excuse,
because he himself crafted that Anticipation.
Many consider
him a hero. I do not. To me, he is no God, CHIM or otherwise: he is
Vehk, murderer.
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mafafu |
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Posts: 2263 |
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Quote:
It is their mental, emotional and spiritual nature to act as
they do.
An argument could be made that
the same is true of people. I don't really agree with that argument
but it can be made nonetheless and it does have its merit.
-------------------- Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec If you're not confused, you're not
paying attention. - Tom Peters
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Nazz |
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I tend to be
of the mindset that the Daedra's actions create their spheres rather
than their spheres dictate their actions.
As for your analogy
I prefer a much more preventative nature. I would rather the Daedra
see that we will not be pushed around and that we can and will
exploit their weakness if need be, in an attempt to keep "all the
guars from being eaten". Rather than let the guars be eaten and then
apply a punishment.
The only thing I have and will ever hold
against Vivec is his love for the Emperor.
-------------------- The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and
Dusk Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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Good post,
CarlCX.
I disagree, and here's why: what Vivec did, his
primary "crime" from which the others followed, was refuse to admit
that the gods - Aedra OR Daedra - had the right to command mortals.
You're spot on when you pinpoint free will as the issue here. Every
race of Tamriel willingly abdicates its free will to some outside
power. Why? Despite what Girai would like to have us believe, the
Aedra are not better than men.
Yep, Vivec is guilty of the
charges brought against him. But no one has asked the most important
question: who made the laws? And why should we follow
them?
Let's look at Nerevar. Given the Tools, at a time when
his people had been nearly obliterated, he was unwilling to make a
decision about them. He asked his advisors; but ultimately he wasn't
willing to trust any mortal. He called for help, help from a daedra.
The one thing we know for sure about daedra is that they have no
connection to mortal existence. They are the ultimate disinterested
parties. Why should Azura get to decide what happens to the Chimer?
To any mortal?
Why does Vivec NEED an excuse?
That's
not the whole story, of course... only half of it. The other half is
that Vivec was a desperately flawed mortal who immortalized his
flaws. Not the right way to go about it. But the effort remains
heroic.
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CarlCX |
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Quote:
An argument could be made that the same is true of people. I
don't really agree with that argument but it can be made
nonetheless and it does have its merit.
It's true, but not to the same
degree. People do have given natures, and they tend to act within
them. The difference is, with people, it's just that--a tendency.
People have the potential to become something other than what they
are: a murderer can find Stendarr and mend his ways, a priest can
lose his faith and begin a life of hate and crime. The son of a
netchiman can attain godhood. Their tendency does not clasp them to
a set path or attitude.
Daedra do not seem so malleable:
their actions are confined to their Anticipations, their Spheres.
You would no sooner see Hircine practicing vegetarianism than you
would see Mehrunes Dagon handing out flowers to his enemies, or
Sheogorath preaching the virtues of common sense.
The animal
comparison is not absolute, for the Daedra are sentient, and thus
responsible for their actions. The only way to make them a lesser
evil in any given situation is to compare them to a God of Free Will
who still chooses a darker path. We happen to have seen the darkest
moment of the only one.
Quote:
I tend to be of the mindset that the Daedra's actions create
their spheres rather than their spheres dictate their
actions.
As for your analogy I prefer a much more
preventative nature. I would rather the Daedra see that we will
not be pushed around and that we can and will exploit their
weakness if need be, in an attempt to keep "all the guars from
being eaten". Rather than let the guars be eaten and then apply a
punishment.
The only thing I have and will ever hold
against Vivec is his love for the Emperor.
We cannot be absolutely sure
whether the Daedra or Spheres came first. (OOC: I think it's TES'
"chicken or the egg" quandary.) I believe that they were confined to
Spheres from birth, however, given that they themselves were born of
blood with temples: Padomay being confined to Darkness as it
was.
Nazz, your concept--protecting all mortals from the
influence of the Daedra--is noble, but the sacrifice you are willing
to make overrides that nobility. The only man who has completely
beaten the Daedra was Vehk--imagine if, all across Tamriel, EVERY
mortal being acted as he did. Imagine the sheer destruction we would
bring upon ourselves. To fight the Daedra for being Gods is as
insane as the Daedra fighting us for being Mortals. We CAN achieve
an equilibrium, it's just going to take many, many years...and
unfortunately, an awful lot of bloodshed on both sides.
I am
curious, however: if your sole complaint with Vehk is his love for
the Emperor, does that mean you agree with the murder of Nerevar?
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CarlCX |
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Very good
points, Allerleirauh, and thoughts very worth cultivating. In fact,
it is just that kind of questioning of our "betters" that I
staunchly believe WILL help us grow as a mix of races. And when
examined in the light you shine on him, there is a heroism of sorts
to Vehk.
The problem is, I believe that light is tinted by
gold and gray.
Quote:
Yep, Vivec is guilty of the charges brought against him. But
no one has asked the most important question: who made the laws?
And why should we follow them?
...
Why should Azura
get to decide what happens to the Chimer? To any mortal?
Why does Vivec NEED an excuse?
You have done an excellent job
of noting the inherent truth behind Vehk's mission, and you are
correct. There is very little reason (there is, I believe, some, for
there will always be fear of beings with great power) that the world
should live in servitude toward the Aedra or Daedra, and for
bringing to light that we need not do so, Vehk did good. His "why"
is solid.
But I disagree that it is the most important
question. Any can wonder why; any can question all that is beyond
them. The most important question is one that is so often glossed
over:
"How?"
We ourselves are living proof that any
can wonder why we obey the Aedra and Daedra, let alone worship them.
The question of importance, then, is "How do you disobey
them?"
You are correct in that Vehk accomplished something
heroic: he proved that the Daedra can be overcome by a mortal. But
he does not deserve praise. Rather, I would say, he deserves
scorn--for he accomplished this by exploiting the worst parts of the
mortal spirit. He murdered his closest friend to gather power, he
lied to an entire race of people--and, even when given the power to
rectify these mistakes, simply let them live on, that he might
continue on his quest to gather more.
And even when once
again returned to mortality, Vehk lied to, exploited, and used a
court of mortals--you and I included--to gain back the power he
desired. And to achieve it, he was willing to sacrifice any one of
us, from his servant Ainoryl to a complete innocent
(Stri'Ker).
You paint Vehk as if he were the shining example
of what our free will can accomplish, and in a sense, he is, for he
achieved CHIM, the ultimate manifestation of free will. I give him
credit for this. But every detail, every piece of his plot, every
step he took beforehand was founded on the WORST aspects of free
will. He twisted the will of nearly every mortal who placed trust in
him, so long as it meant benefit for himself in the
end.
Should we aspire to earn what Vehk earned? By all means,
yes. We should not be pawns of Daedra, Aedra or CHIM alike. But Vehk
earned what he did by making us all pawns of his self-assumed rule.
And that is the worst case for the power of our free will
conceivable.
So, wise Allerleirauh, I believe you have it
backwards. Vehk's end result was the heroic portion--it is his
effort that was despicable.
If we are to achieve CHIM through
free will, I pray we find a better way.
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mafafu |
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Quote:
You are correct in that Vehk accomplished something
heroic
Reach Heaven
Quote:
for he accomplished this by exploiting the worst parts of the
mortal spirit
By Violence.
-------------------- Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec If you're not confused, you're not
paying attention. - Tom Peters
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I'm not sure I
would put it quite that way, but I believe we agree on
essentials.
The trick, really, is transcending your nature...
which isn't what Vehk did. He held on to his nature, the bad as well
as the good. That's never going to work.
And... it's a
mistake to glorify the beginnings too much. Despite the religious
rhetoric, the Tribunal was born in pain and fear. A beloved father,
Nerevar, abandoned them at the exact hour in which they needed
reassurance; that's the true reason for the murder. Don't imagine
for a moment that Vivec didn't love Nerevar, that the murder was the
result of a failure of love; he did love him, and the murder was
agony, and the agony taints everything before and since. It's the
reason for the Armistice. Whatever may have come later, at the time
of the decision Vivec was young, and not an intellectual; he wasn't
thinking of any heroic defiance of the daedra, but of the fact that
inexplicably, the lord he had always loved and trusted refused to
claim the powers that might make him safe. The Dwemer were not
defeated, remember; they disappeared; they might at any moment
reappear. Imagine the looks exchanged among the members of the
Tribunal, when Nerevar asked them to swear never to use the great
source of power that lay in their hands now. Are you thinking what
I'm thinking? Has he gone mad? Is the world coming to an end? And
what are we going to do about it? Dunmer - or I should say Chimer -
can only be pushed so far. Then their nature asserts
itself.
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Nazz |
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I do not
suggest that we "fight" the Daedra because they are gods, but
because they see us as their playthings. Vivec, and the unnamed (
they always are
) hero of the Battlespire before him have both sent a wake up call
to the Daedra that we will not fit the role they think we were born
to play. The Daedra are like the Dunmer child, mischevious,
unknowing, and uncaring of the consequences of their actions. Some
call them evil for this, while others call them master for the same
reasons. While the roots of my people are intertwined with their
influence they did not wish to see us grow as a people and therefore
had to be cast aside.
Quote:
I am curious, however: if your sole complaint with Vehk is his
love for the Emperor, does that mean you agree with the murder of
Nerevar?
Yes. One died so that a whole
race could Live.
-------------------- The 4th of First
Seed - Dusk and Dusk Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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CarlCX |
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When you put
it like that, Allerleirauh, I believe we agree on the facts of the
case. It's just our reactions that are divided. Such is the way of
life.
Nazz, I think a similar answer applies to our
disagreement. I do not disagree that we should resist the Daedra,
and even war with them should things grow too foul. I disagree with
you on what you are willing to sacrifice for it. Some morals
shouldn't be compromised.
And I think you have romanticized
the murder of Nerevar. Having seen Vehk act as he has in the recent
past, look back on the circumstance and his confessed murder, and
ask yourself:
Did Vehk kill Nerevar for the Dunmer, or did
Vehk kill Nerevar for himself?
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I think when
you said that the Emporer told us mortals not to judge, I think you
misunderstood what he meant.
""I would only say... let no
mortal man presume to judge
this immortal Vivec"
The key word presume basically means not
for anyone to make an opinion based on non-facts, to basically
assume before hearing evidence and without proof. Otherwise if the
Emporer meant no Mortal not even the Tribunal to Judge Vehk then he
would have said -let no mortal man judge this immortal Vivec-
instead. Anyhow this seems to be a trial about misinformation,
misdirection so maybe I misintepreted what the Emporer said. Maybe
an English major can come here and specify since I know many will
argue my interpretation of the Emporer's sentence was
wrong.
As far as Vehk liking the Emporer, I think those days
are completely over. The Emporer said "That Vivec
has chosen to place himself in the hands of the Law pleases us, and
does him honor. His acknowledgement and acceptance of the Law brings
him within our countenance. We neither smile, nor frown, but say...
let Justice and the Law be done."
I'll be
suprised if they do remain friends now. Seems to me like Vehk used
up whatever good faith he had with the Emporer to hatch this
elaborate revenge. I have to hand it to him though, only the most
craftiest of minds could have created this scheme.
-------------------- Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu -
screen shots Dwemer Links Prof. of Academy for
Dwemer Studies Member of Team Pheonix
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No, the usage
you want for presume in that context is this one:
Quote:
1. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He
presumed to invite himself to dinner.
It's nice to be out of
character here, so I can state firmly that I've talked to people
behind the scenes about the Emperor's position. The Emperor never
intended to permit a trial of immortals; however, there was some
doubt about whether Vivec counted as an immortal.
As for
whether they remain friends... the Emperor has the Elder Scrolls.
He's bloody difficult to trick. Never assume you know how much he
knows about something.
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CarlCX |
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Actually,
Alle, wouldn't this have caught the Emperor by surprise for just
that reason? He relies on the Scrolls for his information--and we
know the Scrolls can't be attuned to a Dragon Break, theoretically
because they're aberrations in the timeline.
So, while Septim
is a clever man and I imagine he had some idea of what would happen,
could he really have known?
And further, that was a thought I
had: if the timeline in official measure is crafted by the Scrolls,
and we experienced a Dragon Break...does that mean that it falls on
us to be the sole carriers of the knowledge of what happened at
Hogithum Hall?
Heavy, man, heavy.
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Quote:
You guys rock.
OOC: I second that emotion.
You guys made it fun.
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Quote:
No, the usage you want for presume in that context is this
one:
Quote:
1. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He
presumed to invite himself to dinner.
I think your misintepreting
the context. Here are the definitions of verbs in the Dictionary.
Quote:
1. To take for granted as being true in the absence of
proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent. 2. To
constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A
signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room. 3. To venture
without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite
himself to dinner.
Your saying the Emporer says
'let no mortal [dare] to judge this Immortal Vivec.' Right the court
was given permission and authority by Vehk already. So even if you
argue that is what the Emporer intended in his speach then your
arguement is null because that permission and authority was already
granted and therefor there would be no daring or venturing because
it is granted already.
Quote:
It's nice to be out of character here, so I can state
firmly that I've talked to people behind the scenes about the
Emperor's position. The Emperor never intended to permit a trial
of immortals; however, there was some doubt about whether Vivec
counted as an immortal.
The Emporer already counted
Vivec as an Immortal he said "this immortal Vivec"
So there
would have been no question if he was an Immortal, unless you
presumed that the Emporer was lying about 'this immortal Vivec' not
being an immortal. There is no question in my mind when the Emporer
says this beautiful cloud I'll not question if it is beautiful or if
it is even a cloud. And then I definitly wouldn't use his own words
in a twisted jumbled way to prevent 'Justice.' So I hope that you
were confused by that, or that I am wrong and that the Emporer
wanted it the way these 'people' say.
So for example if the
Emporer were to say -let no man presume to judge this rotten apple-
I would not presume it to be anything other then a rotten apple. I
don't think this means that if it turns out actually to be a rotten
apple that we can no longer judge it, because it is already a rotten
apple. Your basically trying to divide zero by zero. Can't be done
sorry.
Quote:
Never assume you know how much he knows about something.
I'm not assuming anything,
that is my whole point and arguement. When the Commander and Chief
says that X=1 I don't try to divide it by 0 to make it a nullset, I
say it is a 1 until otherwise instructed by him.
-------------------- Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu -
screen shots Dwemer Links Prof. of Academy for
Dwemer Studies Member of Team Pheonix
Edited
by Aquiantus (03/24/04 10:02 PM)
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Dude, I'm half
past tired of arguing with you. If you want to know what the person
who wrote it intended, pay attention. If you don't, believe what you
want.
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Attrebus |
Hitman |
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Ah Shiggy, I
don't know where you come up with that crazy stuff that you write,
but it's great fun to read!
And
you tried to make me go insane.
-Attrebus
-------------------- Remember the 4th of First Seed -
Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and
Truth. And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered
always.
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Susano |
Adept |
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Posts: 207 |
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Quote:
I don't understand the purpose behind trying to use the
opinions of a race, school, religion or political faction to
justify or deride an opinion, nor do I understand attempting to
not make an ethical judgment based on the fact that our existence
was created by the Aedra.
This is not the Aedra/Daedra
conflict, at least not to me. Im just as distrustful of the Aedra.
ANY higher being from another plane is a potential threat to Mundus,
but of course the Aedra do not really act, do not change
things - that is the way of the Daedra. I do not say change is bad -
I say change made by Daedra is bad, though! It does nt matter who
crated us, either - now we exist, and now our primary cocnern should
be how to defend ourselves.
Quote:
Are you all so centered on the forces both mortal and immortal
surrounding you that you're content to let them make up your minds
for you?
That is the point. I at least do
not so. I do not necessarily agree with Vivec, or Vehk, either - but
hes BY FAR the smallest evil.
Quote:
I am in the minority, I realize, and all are by far entitled
to their personal beliefs. Mine is simply that ALL living beings,
regardless of their stature, position or plane of existence,
should be held accountable for their misdeeds. The only reason I
have leniency on the Daedra and Aedra is that they did not create
the roles they serve--they were born TO serve them. It is their
mental, emotional and spiritual nature to act as they do. It does
not absolve them of responsibility for these misdeeds: it simply
earns them a degree of leeway.
Living creatures? Be careful! How
do you define living? Sure we can interact with Daedra in a way, but
so we can with, say magical streams and thelike. Maybe the
Daedra live, but they come from Oblivion, another plane alltogether.
Maybe they live, but in this case it surely is a living so different
from ours, that it IS another state as what we call
"living". However, youre talking about judging, and justice
again. Justice is not the point. Oh yes, maybe it would be justified
to be lenient on the Daedra, because, well, they are defined by
their spheres and so on - but regardless, we have to defend ourselve
here on Mundus. Our sense f jsutice shoud not render ourselves
defenseless!
Quote:
Think of it as an analogy: you may be against killing, but you
would not stop an alit from eating a guar; it is the natural order
of things.
Yes, and if the guars were any
intelligent they would band together, and drive out the alits,
natural order or not. Honouring the natural order is not noble, not
if it means "well, I accept the detah of my friends and brethren,
because its the natural order". Why do you think we chase away
nix-hounds from our settlement, or kagoutis, or guars? They, too,
hunt men and mer, that, too, is the natural order - yet we break
them by killing all that could be dangerous. We rid pilgirum routes,
or croassroads, if those animals are there. Not for their meat,
then, but to disturb this natural order - to defend
ourselves.
Quote:
Did Vehk kill Nerevar for the Dunmer, or did Vehk kill Nerevar
for himself?
In the end, does it matter? He
replaced Daedra worship with worship of a native god, surely the
lesser evil, as said. This native god was him, yes, and that was his
motivation, yes, but what counts is - in the end, it bettered
morrowind. Nothing else counts. The means DO justify the ends.
-------------------- Serving honourably in House Redoran
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CarlCX |
Novice |
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Reged: 08/07/03 |
Posts: 41 |
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Very
thoughtful and well-written response, Susano. I'm afraid that you
and I, my friend, will always disagree on just what constitutes
evil.
But it's nice that we have the freedom to decide for
ourselves.
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stratigo |
Disciple |
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Posts: 1221 |
Loc: In a universe far far away...
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Very
interesting!! I lurked in the shadows the whole time. Great
stuff(maybe you guys should do it again sometime)
-------------------- Victory requires no explanation,
Defeat allows none.
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Tedders |
Curate |
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Posts: 495 |
Loc: Los Angeles, CA | |
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Quote:
And you tried to make me go insane.
And damn near succeeded too.
Heh heh.
You'll be glad to know that Gosleigh stopped
running on the High Rock / Cyrodiil border, and is sleeping off the
visions he had of deicide.
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Niobe |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 01/27/04 |
Posts: 179 |
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Quote:
He replaced Daedra worship with worship of a native god,
surely the lesser evil, as said. This native god was him, yes, and
that was his motivation, yes, but what counts is - in the end, it
bettered morrowind. Nothing else counts. The means DO justify the
ends.
Well, how can you be so
certain that the Tribunal's usurpation of godhood was the
best thing that could have happened to the Chimer? You can't be sure
that, should Nerevar have lived, or other variations of reality
occured, a better social/religious model would never have been
implemented than the one under ALMSIVI. Maybe it would have been
possible years down the road for Morrowind not to become part
of the Empire (regardless of whether this would be a good thing or
not for Tamriel, the majority of the Dunmer seem to think it would
be good for them). The fact is, it would have been different,
certainly, but I don't think there is enough information to
automaticly qualify one "universe" as good and the other as
"bad".
And I don't always agree that the ends justify
the means. If it were so, I'd be rooting for the Dwemer to achieve
their immortality/godhood/spirituality/whatever regardless of the
cost to the rest of the world -- which I don't.
(And
I know I'm playing the part of Devil's Advocate. )
-------------------- In the debating chamber of his mind
a dozen emotions got to their feet and started shouting. Relief was
in full spate when Shock cut in on a point of order and then
Bewilderment, Terror and Loss started a fight which ended only when
Shame slunk in from next door to see what all the row was about.
—Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic
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Susano |
Adept |
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Posts: 207 |
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If I was
Dwemer I certainly would do so! But as non-Dwemer I do not. And I
think Daedra worship is worse because, well, as said, I see the
Daedra as a threat to Mundus.
-------------------- Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Niobe |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 01/27/04 |
Posts: 179 |
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Quote:
If I was Dwemer I certainly would do so! But as non-Dwemer I
do not.
Exactly what I meant with the
ends not always justifying the means -- some things just have too
heavy a price to pay. I believe that had the Dwemer been fully aware
of the consequences of their actions on Mundus (and not only when it
came to their disapearance), they too would have thought better of
the means they'd be using (not to say that they wouldn't have ended
chosing the same course -- I can't predict what-ifs and
could-have-beens).
Quote:
And I think Daedra worship is worse because, well, as said, I
see the Daedra as a threat to Mundus.
There are always people ready
to sacrifice all to gain more power, or knowledge, or simply to
prove that they can -- denying the worship of Daedra wouldn't stop
people from trying to summon the creatures from Oblivion, and would
probably make it so they would be even more dangerous when crossing
the borders of reality. Surely a controlled worship should
provide a safer alternative to the peoples of
Mundus.
Besides, I don't see how the Daedra should be
considered that more dangerous than the Aedra, for instance, who are
considered as part of Mundus. They are surely aspects of
natural forces, taken to an extreme I grant you, but still
present in reality. Order taken to an extreme is as damaging
as Chaos unbound. And having one without the other would surely lead
to an imbalance of the world. The worship of those principles is a
way to keep them under control, and make them work for the
people, IMO.
-------------------- In the debating
chamber of his mind a dozen emotions got to their feet and started
shouting. Relief was in full spate when Shock cut in on a point of
order and then Bewilderment, Terror and Loss started a fight which
ended only when Shame slunk in from next door to see what all the
row was about. —Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic
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*Slowly stands
up, trembling*
My hands... they have the blood of a god on
them. I was a fool to think that Vivec was a noble creature, one who
had done much good to the world, but he has a heart blacker than
even the god of the Dagoths! I have murdered Azura, and have
released upon the world two demons that will blacken Nirn till the
Daedra ride once again in our woods! I have killed! Not in
self-defence, not in spite, but I have killed thousands in my
curiousity. My sorrow is a sea, that will flood all of Tamriel, over
Elf and Man and Hist. It is unending!
*raises hand to
throat*
My friends will look out from their huts... but I
shall not return.
*there is a scream, a ripping sound, and
the corpse of Lugagius, Imperial scholar, crashes to the ground.
-------------------- ________________________
Pyschopathic Travel Accesory The Tribunal are not Evil,
Godammit!
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Xanathar |
Disciple |
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* the
librarian sobs uncontrollable *
I missed the
Hogitum...
* tears are still flowing from his eyes, he says
*
Great job all of you and greater praise to MK. You are
still one of the ES developers for
me.
-------------------- ~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library Member of The
Forum Scholars Guild
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(ooc: no one
seems to have anything to say to an in character suicide... seems
only fair to acknowlege it!)
I am deeply sorry to hear this
news. This is what comes of mortals treading too close to the
gods... they get stepped on. Poor Lugagius; I fear his death will
last far longer than Azura's. Daedra always return.
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Solin |
Initiate |
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Posts: 92 |
Loc: Overseeing the growth of Tel Kaerth at
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Solyn looks
up from a book he is reading and the papers he is scribling on, then
continues reading and writing... but then looking up again, he
stares at the form lying on the ground. After packing his
belongings, he walks to Lugagius' body crouches down and picks up
the blood stained hand. Patting it in a sympathetic manner, he
mumbles something about cherishing a cloak.
These
surrounding halls have been somewhat quiet of late; I've found them
ideal for study... I'm afraid I've been a bit absorbed by them.
Pardon, I have matters to attend to. I must go for the moment.
Solyn exits the hall
-------------------- "There’s man all over for you,
blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in
Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of
Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
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Vvardenfell
Tribunal,
Word has reached me regarding the events of your
trial. To say the least I am not surprised at the actions of V. How
could one hardly expect any less from a Thief? Or a Liar? Or a
Murderer even? I do not Judge.
The minions of Azura are wild
and confused when I summon them from their dark abode. They can
hardly find direction. I suggest someone compentent enough in the
Sorcerous ways summon a Winged Twilight for an amusing conversation.
Is Azura gone? Her minions cannot answer that. Is Azura banished?
They are silent. To cause a worse punishment to Azura is hard to
concieve of. Her own land is no longer under her influence. What
will the priests think?
Though I cannot see how much of an
effect this will have upon Resdayn, I can't say I really care too
much.
One question for you all though; Which is it? Banished
or Dead?
-AG
Care of Tower Grimwald Isle of
Balfiera
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tegger |
Creepy ShadowLady |
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Posts: 15572 |
Loc: United States | |
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Quote:
One question for you all though; Which is it? Banished or
Dead?
I say banished. Vehk said,
"YOU ARE BANISHED FROM THIS STARRY HEART" -- which I took to mean
banished from Nirn -- maybe even from the realm of the physical
itself.
-------------------- Everyone
always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much. ~TSL )O(
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Nael |
Curate |
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Reged: 05/15/02 |
Posts: 692 |
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Hey, I'm just
surprised Azura had the guts. Get it?!
*laughs
maniacally*
-------------------- Best
puns in town!
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CarlCX |
Novice |
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Reged: 08/07/03 |
Posts: 41 |
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Theoretically,
isn't it impossible to kill a Daedra anyway? That was supposed to be
the balance of power between Aedra and Daedra; the Aedra have the
greater power but can be undone, the Daedra have the lesser power
but are protean and indestructible.
Regardless, going by
every other time a Daedra has been struck down by a mortal (Mehrunes
Dagon, Hircine), it would stand to reason that Azura will be back,
she just needs to find her way back to her plane.
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tegger |
Creepy ShadowLady |
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Reged: 09/11/02 |
Posts: 15572 |
Loc: United States | |
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Quote:
Theoretically, isn't it impossible to kill a Daedra
anyway?
Yep, all evidence (so far)
points to that conclusion.
-------------------- Everyone always
overgeneralizes everything entirely too much. ~TSL )O(
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MK |
Novice |
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Reged: 03/22/04 |
Posts: 10 |
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Quote:
You are still one of the ES developers for me.
Shucks. Thanks, Xan.
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zingbat |
Disciple |
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Reged: 01/02/03 |
Posts: 1165 |
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I would like
to clarify something about my behavior. I requested this trial but
it was never with the intentions i would make you believe. So dont
put the blame on anyone else except me.
Im not an Imperial
officer or do i love the Emperor more than the prostitute in the
nearest tavern or even Vhek himself or the gods. Im an humble member
of the Bards guild and my role in society is to uncover the dust of
soceity hidden behind all the closed window and doors and register
all of it on memory stones.
Thanks to you and Vhek and some
rather naive people my pockets are several millions of septins
heavier.
The Emperor was a clever actor and his subjects where payed to do
their roles quite well. But the show was quite worth the effort.
Heres what some of the grannies that watched the show have to say
about it:
"I was brilliant, pieces of Deadra flying all over,
bloody and tasty"
And another
"I wanted to see Vheks
neck hanging on a rope but now i just want to see Vhek blowing up
more Daedra."
And another
"That b$#$%# Azura got what
she deserved, it remided me of myself when i was young sorceress,
blowing orcs too pieces, with light bolts, in Daggerfall war. Those
nogood orks, i dont know how the Emperor puts up with
them."
What would you call the Daedra of Trickery and Deceipt
for profit ?
Anyway I dont think Vhek was too much bothered with people who use
his own methods and let himself be used like a prostitute if this
helps him achieve his own ends. After all he did what his
anticipation would expect him to do. He knew of my intentions and he
said nothing when I was hidding in the shadows recording everything
in my memory stone side by side with that lunatic Sheogorath and the
King of Worms (that part gave me the creeps).
Now its over.
If you travel into the imperial city into the memorial walls
building of the Bards Guild you can touch this stone and for a
pitance of 1000000000000 septins you be able to feel and see how one
of the most powerful magiciens of Tamriel was capable to perform the
CHIM. An unvaluable experience, if you are a schoolar, that will
raise your magic ability beyond your wildest dreams.
But if you cant pay that small price for such knowledge then a copy
of the original memory stone will be yours for just 1000000 septins.
What are you wating for ???? Run for it, stock is limited
!!!!
(in very small letters: a copy may have an unpredictable
degradation of the emotions recorded on the original, no refunds
given)
-------------------- Best idea I have. We is
exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing
activity. -- Veloxi
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